New Deere Dig Deeper Site

[Bleed Green]

Check out the new site. It looks like it has a lot more stuff than the old site had. Seems pretty cool, have to look at it closer though.

[coopers]

Where is it?

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Where is it?

http://digdeeper.deere.com/

[WillieWonka1850]

I watched some of the newer comparisons.
I laughed when they compared getting in the JD 313 and the Bobcat S130.
There was no difference!

[bobcat_ron]

Watch the track loader vid, the first "Erosion Control" vid, the big dude is yelling at his crew at he digs a little trench for the silt fence, he wants all the action as he hams it up for the Deere camera crew, what a tool.

"John Deere makes a good product", oh is that why your big fat head is tilted sideways while you are wearing a hard hat in their cramped cabs with the front window over your head? No head room? Or maybe the hard hat is there to protect your big fat head from hitting the window with every bounce?

Good product? I think not.

[Junior M]

Watch the track loader vid, the first "Erosion Control" vid, the big dude is yelling at his crew at he digs a little trench for the silt fence, he wants all the action as he hams it up for the Deere camera crew, what a tool.

"John Deere makes a good product", oh is that why your big fat head is tilted sideways while you are wearing a hard hat in their cramped cabs with the front window over your head? No head room? Or maybe the hard hat is there to protect your big fat head from hitting the window with every bounce?

Good product? I think not.
Hell, I cant even get the freakin videos to show up.. :realmad:

[raschmid07]

Ron I'm with you on the silt fence guy. If he has such a big operation, why is he flipping the bucket up to put in a trench for that silt fence? You would think he would spend the money on a trencher.

[Junior M]

Ron I'm with you on the silt fence guy. If he has such a big operation, why is he flipping the bucket up to put in a trench for that silt fence? You would think he would spend the money on a trencher.
or he would be smart and buy a....................... you got it, a silt fence installer!

Ding ding ding! Like trying to load a truck with a harley rake.. :hammerhead:

[WillieWonka1850]

I was gonna say an Angle Broom but a Fence installer works, too. :laugh:

I can see what he was trying to do but like Junior said a Fence Installer would be a lot better.

[Junior M]

I was gonna say an Angle Broom but a Fence installer works, too. :laugh:

I can see what he was trying to do but like Junior said a Fence Installer would be a lot better.
alot better? It'd be a ton freakin better, if he's installing silt fence like yall are saying(I wouldnt know, dam videos wont show up:realmad:) then once they ran through the area with the installer all they'd have to do is drive the stakes and tie the fence to the stakes, no hand work, nothing, just pounding in some stakes.. :cool2:

[Bleed Green]

junior do you have a mac? They don't allow the vids to show up for some reason. To see them I have to use the windows side of my computer.

[Junior M]

junior do you have a mac? They don't allow the vids to show up for some reason. To see them I have to use the windows side of my computer.
Nope, Windows.. :wall

[Skidsteerman]

Watch the track loader vid, the first "Erosion Control" vid, the big dude is yelling at his crew at he digs a little trench for the silt fence, he wants all the action as he hams it up for the Deere camera crew, what a tool.

"John Deere makes a good product", oh is that why your big fat head is tilted sideways while you are wearing a hard hat in their cramped cabs with the front window over your head? No head room? Or maybe the hard hat is there to protect your big fat head from hitting the window with every bounce?

Good product? I think not.

Tell us how you really feel...

Deere cab units have a SAFETY switch on the door which locks out boom/bucket movement when opened above your head. Deere does not recommend anyone operate these units with the door open. So unless your bypassing the safety switch, I don't see your complain being legit.

Of course you could always try a Cat with their flimsy thin Saran wrap plastic door. :rolleyes: What, is that thing made out of recycled plastic soda bottles?

As far as the slit fence goes - I didn't watch the video but I can tell ya that there are several different types of silt fence on the market - allot can not be installed using a silt fence installer. Some have wooden post built it and some have a wire woven into it - neither can be installed via a silt fence installer attachment.

We have a vibratory silt fence installer and it would only install the material without anything woven into it.

[bobcat_ron]

Tell us how you really feel...

Deere cab units have a SAFETY switch on the door which locks out boom/bucket movement when opened above your head. Deere does not recommend anyone operate these units with the door open. So unless your bypassing the safety switch, I don't see your complain being legit.

.


The last new 328 I ran ( 2 years ago) had nothing done to it to over ride the switch, everything was factory.
But man oh man, when that damn thing was over your head, you lose valuable head room in an already short head height cab.
Deere pretty much has to have the door down as one wrong move and you will have what ever is in bucket, sitting on your knees.
Bobcat's and Cat you seem to be better protected inside the OROPS.

[Skidsteerman]

Deere pretty much has to have the door down as one wrong move and you will have what ever is in bucket, sitting on your knees.
Bobcat's and Cat you seem to be better protected inside the OROPS.

Only MFG out there that has the ability of operating a CTL with the door open is Take. So I don't get your banging on the Deere over head door comparing it to Cat & Bobcat - Can they operate their CTLs with the door open? No, so what's your point?

If you spill material over the back of the bucket, Deere's ROPS cab has an extended eye brow and a shin guard to protect the operator from falling debris - I doubt it would pass OHSA if it didn't. If you're any kind of an operator with any skill level, it's doubtful dirt or whatever would fall out of the back of the bucket and into the cab.

Cat radial lift machines are terrible for dumping material on top of themselves even to the point of filling the engine compartment with dumped dirt - and you say their better:laugh:

[bobcat_ron]

Only MFG out there that has the ability of operating a CTL with the door open is Take. So I don't get your banging on the Deere over head door comparing it to Cat & Bobcat - Can they operate their CTLs with the door open? No, so what's your point?
If you spill material over the back of the bucket, Deere's ROPS cab has an extended eye brow and a shin guard to protect the operator from falling debris - I doubt it would pass OHSA if it didn't. If you're any kind of an operator with any skill level, it's doubtful dirt or whatever would fall out of the back of the bucket and into the cab.

Cat radial lift machines are terrible for dumping material on top of themselves even to the point of filling the engine compartment with dumped dirt - and you say their better:laugh:

I'm calling you out on this one, YES, Cat and Bobcat can operate the loaders with the doors off or open, my Cat has a button on the door frame, and if it gets stuck, it means the bypass valve stays open, and the loader goes up. Both Bobcat and Cat have provided plugs with a wire in them to over ride the interlock system in the event either the door is removed, or the switch fails.

That clearly means they can be run with out a door, and they don't need some gay shin guard system.
If Deere wants to go back to the roll up system, they better take a measuring tape along with them and get some measurements of the Takeuchi's cabs.
That is the ONLY way to go.

[Digdeep]

Only MFG out there that has the ability of operating a CTL with the door open is Take. So I don't get your banging on the Deere over head door comparing it to Cat & Bobcat - Can they operate their CTLs with the door open? No, so what's your point?

If you spill material over the back of the bucket, Deere's ROPS cab has an extended eye brow and a shin guard to protect the operator from falling debris - I doubt it would pass OHSA if it didn't. If you're any kind of an operator with any skill level, it's doubtful dirt or whatever would fall out of the back of the bucket and into the cab.

Cat radial lift machines are terrible for dumping material on top of themselves even to the point of filling the engine compartment with dumped dirt - and you say their better:laugh:

Not so. The Terex/ASV PT70 and PT80 have the excavator style door and you can operate it in the up position. I always thought that the reason Deere put the "safety" switches in there was because you couldn't get to the ignition or any of the guages with the door up which IMO was dumb:confused: I would kind of like the ability to slide the front door open to talk to someone, get extra ventilation while operating, etc. I can think of more reasons to want to be able to operate with the door up than not.

You say that "if your any kind of operator with any skill level, it's doubtful dirt or whatever would fall out of the back of the bucket and into the cab." Then you say in the next sentence that CAT radial lift machines are terrible for dumping material on top of themselves. What if the CAT has a good operator in it like you said might be the case in the previous sentence? Aren't all radial lift machines "prone" to dumping material on top of themselves? I don't know about most, but I thought that an operator could use self leveling or bucket positioning to prevent this. I know at least on my machine it "rolls" the bucket forward as I lift up my loader arms so that the load stays pretty level as compared to where it started when the bucket was lowered. This compensates for my lack of operating skill.

[jefftb]

You can operate Komatsu SSL/CTL with the door in the up position as well....

[bobcat_ron]

Well now, it seems the Deere sales reps are indeed brainwashed........

[Skidsteerman]

I'm calling you out on this one, YES, Cat and Bobcat can operate the loaders with the doors off or open, my Cat has a button on the door frame, and if it gets stuck, it means the bypass valve stays open, and the loader goes up. Both Bobcat and Cat have provided plugs with a wire in them to over ride the interlock system in the event either the door is removed, or the switch fails.

That clearly means they can be run with out a door, and they don't need some gay shin guard system.
If Deere wants to go back to the roll up system, they better take a measuring tape along with them and get some measurements of the Takeuchi's cabs.
That is the ONLY way to go.

You can not run a Bobcat or Cat with the door open - I never said with it off and it was never implied about the Deere this way either.

[Skidsteerman]

Not so. The Terex/ASV PT70 and PT80 have the excavator style door and you can operate it in the up position. I always thought that the reason Deere put the "safety" switches in there was because you couldn't get to the ignition or any of the guages with the door up which IMO was dumb:confused: I would kind of like the ability to slide the front door open to talk to someone, get extra ventilation while operating, etc. I can think of more reasons to want to be able to operate with the door up than not.

You say that "if your any kind of operator with any skill level, it's doubtful dirt or whatever would fall out of the back of the bucket and into the cab." Then you say in the next sentence that CAT radial lift machines are terrible for dumping material on top of themselves. What if the CAT has a good operator in it like you said might be the case in the previous sentence? Aren't all radial lift machines "prone" to dumping material on top of themselves? I don't know about most, but I thought that an operator could use self leveling or bucket positioning to prevent this. I know at least on my machine it "rolls" the bucket forward as I lift up my loader arms so that the load stays pretty level as compared to where it started when the bucket was lowered. This compensates for my lack of operating skill.

I never referred to the ASV brand in my above statement.

The Cat dumping dirt on to itself was from beginner operators that I saw. If a operator running a Deere did this like Bobcat Ron stated, then he would surely preform this task in the Cat to the effect in my above statement.

Self leveling feature is, IMO, a must on a radial lift unit and highly recommened. On the vertical lift Deere machines, I've only sold three of this option in the last ten years Deere offered it. not necessary IMO.

[Bleed Green]

I have always wondered how exactly does the self-leveling option work? Is it a special type of bucket or something in the bucket or.....?

[stuvecorp]

I have the self leveling on the 70XT and I turned it off, it annoys me.

[Digdeep]

I never referred to the ASV brand in my above statement.

I know you never referred to ASV but you said, "Only MFG out there that has the ability of operating a CTL with the door open is Take.", and I was just pointing out the fact that Takeuchi is not the only machine that can operate with the door up. Komatsu can as well.

[Digdeep]

I have the self leveling on the 70XT and I turned it off, it annoys me.

I rarely use it. I like to roll out the bucket on my own as I raise the loader arms.

[ksss]

I rarely use it. I like to roll out the bucket on my own as I raise the loader arms.



Ditto, I ordered one machine once (cant even remember model it was) with it, had little value. Never ordered it again.

[WillieWonka1850]

Ditto, I ordered one machine once (cant even remember model it was) with it, had little value. Never ordered it again.
It's really nice when using Pallet Forks.
But its not really necessary when using a Bucket.

I can't turn it off in the 1845 and 5310! They have the mechanical Self Leveling :cry:

[Scag48]

It's really nice when using Pallet Forks.
But its not really necessary when using a Bucket.

I can't turn it off in the 1845 and 5310! They have the mechanical Self Leveling :cry:

Self levelling is worse when using forks, IMO. Hate self levelling.

[WillieWonka1850]

Self levelling is worse when using forks, IMO. Hate self levelling.
:confused:

IMO its nice for Pallet Fork work, other than that, not really.

[stuvecorp]

:confused:

IMO its nice for Pallet Fork work, other than that, not really.

I seem to 'fight' what the machine is doing and would just rather level it myself.

My dad wants a 'return to dig' on all skids. I don't really see the need but whatever.

[Junior M]

As far as the slit fence goes - I didn't watch the video but I can tell ya that there are several different types of silt fence on the market - allot can not be installed using a silt fence installer. Some have wooden post built it and some have a wire woven into it - neither can be installed via a silt fence installer attachment.

We have a vibratory silt fence installer and it would only install the material without anything woven into it.

Oh really? Thanks for that great fact, I had no clue.. :rolleyes: :hammerhead:

If you are in the business of installing silt fence, I'd say adjust what you use to the machine that makes it the easiest, or are you one of those jack ass boss's that like to make you do everything with a shovel cause your to busy to get off the dam phone to run the machine or to prideful to let the ditch ***** run it cause he might show up your complete lack of skill?

I cant believe you are actually going to argue with Ron, he's one of the most knowledgeable guys about machines on here and this dam sure aint his first rodeo, I hope your ready to break out your smarts cause your dam sure in for it..

I seem to 'fight' what the machine is doing and would just rather level it myself.

My dad wants a 'return to dig' on all skids. I don't really see the need but whatever.

return to dig? like the bucket curls up and all the way back as the boom lowers? I kinda liked that on the backhoe where I used to work, it was oneless thing to do while I was backing through all these trees and crap that couldnt be harmed. havent had any experience with it past that..

[bobcat_ron]

I used a New Holland LX175, now those NH's are super easy to get in and out of, man I told that farmer thanks for not buying a Deere, although he had thought of it, but he said the same as I did.

And for any other Deere reps information, I have been involved in the skid steer markets since I was 12, I am now 31, a good 18 years of knowledge.
I have seen Bobcat's at their worst, personally witness a 943 completely melt down from Loegering track abuse and see my Dad melt down as he saw the repair bill, I have run the old Deere's 4475- 6675 good old Yanmars,(I kinda liked them) but their boom power was horrible back then.
I have run Case skid steers, old and some what new, old New Hollands and very old Bobcats (621 gas banger baby) I ran a 930A Mustang skid steer into the ground in 2 years when I was 17, I broke 4 bushings and cracked the loader arms, I sheared the drive shaft between the drive motor and sprocket and I was the person responsible for the complete hydraulic failure on that machine (don't tell Daddy)
I've spent many hours with a Thomas skid steer technician looking at the insides of various Thomas skid steers, old and new and I soon realized why Cat copied their ideas.

In the 6 years of owning and operating my little skid steer enterprise, I have talked to many sales reps, and I have had 4 of them tell me to get out of the business and start selling for them, they all told me I knew more about skid steers then they did.

Don't try to preach your Deere propaganda BS to me, I will not convert and I will slam the door in your face.

[WillieWonka1850]

What happened with the 943 and the Mustang?

We could use an interesting story or 2.

[bobcat_ron]

What happened with the 943 and the Mustang?

We could use an interesting story or 2.

Dad bought the 943 in 1987, as a replacement for the John Deere 350C loader cat, he soon put Loegering tracks on it, as they were common with the Forestry people, and Loegering was just starting with the skid steers back then.
He was out in the back of a field with the combo bucket, reverse digging.
That's when you open the bucket up, lower it to the ground and raise the loader and curl the bucket down, and back up, he was pulling the high side of a ditch off level with the field.
He was going balls out (common in our family) when he noticed an oil line in the soil, he then lost all power to the drive system
He hiked back to the truck, drove it in the field, filled up the hydraulic tank, and had just enough time to get it on the tilt trailer before the grinding noise happened.
Dealer got it in the shop, 1 day later, they told him the entire pump and valve bank had been destroyed by the detonation of the drive motor on 1 side, the metal went through everything and the "guts" were a write off.

And..........

Just like with my T190, the very day it happened, the warranty was done.

But with some smooth talking and 3am phone calls to the Melroe (Bobcat back then) factory, he got Melroe to pay for the damage, it was around $25,000, roughly half of the machine's value.

That 943 was only around for 3 more years and it was traded for a Komatsu PC60.

The Mustang 930 was bought after Dad got into a near violent argument with the Bobcat dealer over a machine he wanted in the size he needed (54" wide) and with a diesel engine, Bobcat only had the 643, and it was a gas engine, diesel was much less volatile.

2 years after he bought it, I dropped out of school and I was the sole operator of the skid steer, I hated that machine so much, it had T bar steering and very tight cab, no heater and the quick attach never worked right, so I figured if I broke it, I could go home earlier.

I rammed the hell out of the machine into frozen piles of dirt, twisted the loader and bent the bucket, then one day I was trying to push a wall over and I gave all I could to just one side of the machine, all that torque sheared the shaft between the drive motor and sprocket, the splines sheared off and went right through the bearings, and got into the hydraulic tank.

LUCKILY......the hydraulic system was the same as Thomas and Cat, huge tank and open loop, everything passed through the cooler (after leaving the cylinders and valve bank) and through the filter and into the tank.
The filter was destroyed, and all the shavings ended up in the bottom of the tank, it took an entire week from the Thomas dealer to flush it out, that's how I managed to hang out with the head technician so long, he taught me alot, his name (I hope he is still alive) is Ted McAllister I will never forget that crusty dude.

Anyways, the 930A didn't last too long, the hammer beat the hell out of PDQ, the oil never got hot (just like the Cat/Thomas) but the loader took a beating.

1997 Dad bought the 753 after I noticed the 930A was driving crooked, a tell tale sign something ain't right anymore.

[WillieWonka1850]

Wow.
Why was the 943 losing hydraulic oil?

Do you mean something like the Loegering VTS tracks or over the tire tracks?

And as far as the Mustang, nice...! :laugh:

[NHMan]

What's a LX175?;)

[bobcat_ron]

Wow.
Why was the 943 losing hydraulic oil?

Do you mean something like the Loegering VTS tracks or over the tire tracks?

And as far as the Mustang, nice...! :laugh:


Loegering track chains, VTS didn't even come out until 2007.

The 943 lost oil because the drive motor detonated, read thoroughly.


What's a LX175?;)

The competition for the Bobcat S175/185, very nice machine, but the laoder power was poor.

[DeereMan85]

I used a New Holland LX175, now those NH's are super easy to get in and out of, man I told that farmer thanks for not buying a Deere, although he had thought of it, but he said the same as I did.

And for any other Deere reps information, I have been involved in the skid steer markets since I was 12, I am now 31, a good 18 years of knowledge.
I have seen Bobcat's at their worst, personally witness a 943 completely melt down from Loegering track abuse and see my Dad melt down as he saw the repair bill, I have run the old Deere's 4475- 6675 good old Yanmars,(I kinda liked them) but their boom power was horrible back then.
I have run Case skid steers, old and some what new, old New Hollands and very old Bobcats (621 gas banger baby) I ran a 930A Mustang skid steer into the ground in 2 years when I was 17, I broke 4 bushings and cracked the loader arms, I sheared the drive shaft between the drive motor and sprocket and I was the person responsible for the complete hydraulic failure on that machine (don't tell Daddy)
I've spent many hours with a Thomas skid steer technician looking at the insides of various Thomas skid steers, old and new and I soon realized why Cat copied their ideas.

In the 6 years of owning and operating my little skid steer enterprise, I have talked to many sales reps, and I have had 4 of them tell me to get out of the business and start selling for them, they all told me I knew more about skid steers then they did.

Don't try to preach your Deere propaganda BS to me, I will not convert and I will slam the door in your face.

I'm not trying to convert you or anyone on here. I'm here for fun and to learn more about equipment. The thing I like about this forum is that you get frank opinions. Taking issue with a false statement ("basic servicing requires the booms up") is not spewing propaganda. I'll be the first to admit that some of the equipment I sell has its shortcomings, but it also has its strong points. Most of the guys I sell to have as much or more experience than you, so sticking to the company talking points wouldn't work very well anyway. I never bash the competition (except occasionally for fun on here) because who knows, I might be selling for them someday. If I lose a sale because a customer prefers the features/benefits of a competitive machine over what I have to offer, I shake their hand and tell them that if they think the other machine better meets their needs then they made the right decision for the right reasons. Then I send them a thank you for including me on the deal and asking for a shot at their business next time around. If you think that's being pushy, I sure as hell wouldn't know how to handle you as a customer.

[ksss]

I'm not trying to convert you or anyone on here. I'm here for fun and to learn more about equipment. The thing I like about this forum is that you get frank opinions. Taking issue with a false statement ("basic servicing requires the booms up") is not spewing propaganda. I'll be the first to admit that some of the equipment I sell has its shortcomings, but it also has its strong points. Most of the guys I sell to have as much or more experience than you, so sticking to the company talking points wouldn't work very well anyway. I never bash the competition (except occasionally for fun on here) because who knows, I might be selling for them someday. If I lose a sale because a customer prefers the features/benefits of a competitive machine over what I have to offer, I shake their hand and tell them that if they think the other machine better meets their needs then they made the right decision for the right reasons. Then I send them a thank you for including me on the deal and asking for a shot at their business next time around. If you think that's being pushy, I sure as hell wouldn't know how to handle you as a customer.


Deereman moves into cool school with JD skid steer. Nice to see common sense salesman, a credit to your dealership no doubt.:clapping:

[stuvecorp]

[QUOTE=Junior M;3127346]

If you are in the business of installing silt fence, I'd say adjust what you use to the machine that makes it the easiest, or are you one of those jack ass boss's that like to make you do everything with a shovel cause your to busy to get off the dam phone to run the machine or to prideful to let the ditch ***** run it cause he might show up your complete lack of skill?

QUOTE]

My erosion control supplier has a lot of guys that made a 'shoe' that goes on the corner of the bucket for putting silt fence in. I guess they like it better than a 'fancy' silt fence plow.

[WillieWonka1850]

Loegering track chains, VTS didn't even come out until 2007.

The 943 lost oil because the drive motor detonated, read thoroughly.




The competition for the Bobcat S175/185, very nice machine, but the laoder power was poor.
Sorry Ron, I was dozing off when I read it so yeah....

[Tigerotor77W]

The competition for the Bobcat S175/185, very nice machine, but the laoder power was poor.

He means that there never was an Lx175. The --175 machine is relatively new, so it'd either have been the Lx170 or the L175.

(as in, it was sarcastic. :P)

[bobcat_ron]

He means that there never was an Lx175. The --175 machine is relatively new, so it'd either have been the Lx170 or the L175.

(as in, it was sarcastic. :P)

What ever it was, it's a farm skid steer, covered in sh*t, and it made the indentifying number and letter harder to see.
But the 2 speed made my eye balls pop, it's been a long time since I went that fast so low to the ground.

[Skidsteerman]

If you are in the business of installing silt fence, I'd say adjust what you use to the machine that makes it the easiest, or are you one of those jack ass boss's that like to make you do everything with a shovel cause your to busy to get off the dam phone to run the machine or to prideful to let the ditch ***** run it cause he might show up your complete lack of skill?

I cant believe you are actually going to argue with Ron, he's one of the most knowledgeable guys about machines on here and this dam sure aint his first rodeo, I hope your ready to break out your smarts cause your dam sure in for it..



From the experience I've been around the silt fence (which has not been a lot, however; The county requirements for it's use is increasing) From what the customers say is that the inspectors tell them what type and design silt fence they want installed -apparently the contractor has little say on it (this is on jobs sites I've been on in my area).

I'm not arguing w/Ron, just addressing fact he is skewing for what ever reason he deems necessary. Apparently his dislikes people standing up for the Deere product line... meh Oh, and he absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt, HATES Deere's current cab design - I think I and everyone else on here get that part Ron.:rolleyes:

I used a New Holland LX175, now those NH's are super easy to get in and out of, man I told that farmer thanks for not buying a Deere, although he had thought of it, but he said the same as I did.

And for any other Deere reps information, I have been involved in the skid steer markets since I was 12, I am now 31, a good 18 years of knowledge.
I have seen Bobcat's at their worst, personally witness a 943 completely melt down from Loegering track abuse and see my Dad melt down as he saw the repair bill, I have run the old Deere's 4475- 6675 good old Yanmars,(I kinda liked them) but their boom power was horrible back then.
I have run Case skid steers, old and some what new, old New Hollands and very old Bobcats (621 gas banger baby) I ran a 930A Mustang skid steer into the ground in 2 years when I was 17, I broke 4 bushings and cracked the loader arms, I sheared the drive shaft between the drive motor and sprocket and I was the person responsible for the complete hydraulic failure on that machine (don't tell Daddy)
I've spent many hours with a Thomas skid steer technician looking at the insides of various Thomas skid steers, old and new and I soon realized why Cat copied their ideas.

In the 6 years of owning and operating my little skid steer enterprise, I have talked to many sales reps, and I have had 4 of them tell me to get out of the business and start selling for them, they all told me I knew more about skid steers then they did.

Don't try to preach your Deere propaganda BS to me, I will not convert and I will slam the door in your face.

I'm not trying to preach to you or anyone else for that matter, and I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else on here to the Deere product. I'm not pumping any Deere propaganda at you either, I am talking about the Deere product qualities and this is something that gets into your goat for whatever reason. So, no one should talk positive about Deere? According to the way you act, Deere should stop MFGing CWP product line all together, because in your opinion it's a joke.

It's seems to be just fine and dandy for you to bash Deere into the ground, then ridicule folks for standing up for them. The 4 sales reps that told you to get out of the business and start selling for them, because they told you you knew more about skid steers then they did were either polishing you to close a deal or they were wet behind the ears and still green at their job. You may have some product knowledge but behavior wise, forget it.

Great, you have years of experience around equipment - do you assume this is my first rodeo? Any clue how long I've been in this business? Any idea how long I've been around sslders of most brands? No, I'm sure you don't and it's really a moot point anyway.


I'm not trying to convert you or anyone on here. I'm here for fun and to learn more about equipment. The thing I like about this forum is that you get frank opinions. Taking issue with a false statement ("basic servicing requires the booms up") is not spewing propaganda. I'll be the first to admit that some of the equipment I sell has its shortcomings, but it also has its strong points. Most of the guys I sell to have as much or more experience than you, so sticking to the company talking points wouldn't work very well anyway. I never bash the competition (except occasionally for fun on here) because who knows, I might be selling for them someday. If I lose a sale because a customer prefers the features/benefits of a competitive machine over what I have to offer, I shake their hand and tell them that if they think the other machine better meets their needs then they made the right decision for the right reasons. Then I send them a thank you for including me on the deal and asking for a shot at their business next time around. If you think that's being pushy, I sure as hell wouldn't know how to handle you as a customer.

X2 I couldn't say this any better. I would put Bobcat Ron in the high maintenance customer category.

[Tigerotor77W]

Edited. Foot-in-mouth.

[bobcat_ron]

From the experience I've been around the silt fence (which has not been a lot, however; The county requirements for it's use is increasing) From what the customers say is that the inspectors tell them what type and design silt fence they want installed -apparently the contractor has little say on it (this is on jobs sites I've been on in my area).

I'm not arguing w/Ron, just addressing fact he is skewing for what ever reason he deems necessary. Apparently his dislikes people standing up for the Deere product line... meh Oh, and he absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt, HATES Deere's current cab design - I think I and everyone else on here get that part Ron.:rolleyes:



I'm not trying to preach to you or anyone else for that matter, and I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else on here to the Deere product. I'm not pumping any Deere propaganda at you either, I am talking about the Deere product qualities and this is something that gets into your goat for whatever reason. So, no one should talk positive about Deere? According to the way you act, Deere should stop MFGing CWP product line all together, because in your opinion it's a joke.

It's seems to be just fine and dandy for you to bash Deere into the ground, then ridicule folks for standing up for them. The 4 sales reps that told you to get out of the business and start selling for them, because they told you you knew more about skid steers then they did were either polishing you to close a deal or they were wet behind the ears and still green at their job. You may have some product knowledge but behavior wise, forget it.

Great, you have years of experience around equipment - do you assume this is my first rodeo? Any clue how long I've been in this business? Any idea how long I've been around sslders of most brands? No, I'm sure you don't and it's really a moot point anyway.




X2 I couldn't say this any better. I would put Bobcat Ron in the high maintenance customer category.

I am by no means a "high maintenance customer", I don't come to a dealer's yard and expect coffee and donuts, or even a handshake, all I want is no BS, get to the goods and where do I sign.
I don't demand that things get done exactly the way I want, I will (and have already) picked up a wrench and did it my way, Finning goofed up on my hydraulic return line placement and my radio antenna, so I did it myself. I love to solve issues like that with out getting someone else involved.

[ianh]

My erosion control supplier has a lot of guys that made a 'shoe' that goes on the corner of the bucket for putting silt fence in.



Sounds interesting... any pix or even a brief description would be much appreciated. Tks

[DeereMan85]

Deereman moves into cool school with JD skid steer. Nice to see common sense salesman, a credit to your dealership no doubt.:clapping:

Thank you. I consider it a huge compliment to be compared to JDskidsteer.

[stuvecorp]

Sounds interesting... any pix or even a brief description would be much appreciated. Tks

He explained it to me and I think it was a piece of channel that would go over the edge of the bucket with a sort of 'plow' shape to cut your groove for the silt fence. Then the silt fence would get put in and the skid would roll the dirt back and compact with the tire or track. I wanted pictures but they never got some for me. Hope this helps.

[NHMan]

He means that there never was an Lx175. The --175 machine is relatively new, so it'd either have been the Lx170 or the L175.

(as in, it was sarcastic. :P)



Whats an LX170?;)




:p

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Deereman moves into cool school with JD skid steer. Nice to see common sense salesman, a credit to your dealership no doubt.:clapping:

You wait for customers like Ron to get pissed at all the other dealers in town and decide he heard you gave great service and decides what the heck.....I try one for the heck of it......LOL Sometimes they will come to you.......

[Bleed Green]

when the D-series comes out he will try one don't worry...then just maybe he will be converted.

[WillieWonka1850]

when the D-series comes out he will try one don't worry...then just maybe he will be converted.
Then he'll see the price tag and have a heart attack! :laugh:
Along with me.

[Bleed Green]

nothing good is cheap, otherwise it would not be good.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Then he'll see the price tag and have a heart attack! :laugh:
Along with me.

Remember Ron owns a Cat......We won't be higher than them.

[Skidsteerman]

Remember Ron owns a Cat......We won't be higher than them.

Well, you haven't seen the $ tag on the D series yet, only time will tell on that. I would expect the new D series to go up in cost because of some of the improvement changes made are just going to cost more. New models typically are higher or so history has proven anyway.

[DeereMan85]

I highly doubt we'll be more expensive than Cat. Maybe it's just around here, but Cat is usually sky high. Sold a CTL last month where I was 12k cheaper than Cat, and I made a healthy margin on the deal. The Cat salesman tried to convince the customer that their fuel economy would make up the difference in no time (for a guy who averages 200 hrs/year). Oh, and they also didn't check the track tension on their demo unit and tried to bill the customer for having a technician come out when the track came off.

[Skidsteerman]

I highly doubt we'll be more expensive than Cat. Maybe it's just around here, but Cat is usually sky high. Sold a CTL last month where I was 12k cheaper than Cat, and I made a healthy margin on the deal. The Cat salesman tried to convince the customer that their fuel economy would make up the difference in no time (for a guy who averages 200 hrs/year). Oh, and they also didn't check the track tension on their demo unit and tried to bill the customer for having a technician come out when the track came off.

I hope Deere stays in the same neighborhood $ wise as they are now and if they have to take an increase, I hope it's not much so they can stay competitive.

Local Cat dealership goes through sales reps faster then most people change underwear, I think that the Full line guys are pimping them now, not sure.

The demo scenario sounds similar to around here as well - trying to stick the customer for something their shop could've prevented. Seen this some time back when one of my customers demoed a Cat CTL with the ASV undercarriage and it ate and tossed a track off. Field guy comes out and ask the customer if the Cat salesman told him not to operate the Cat on any steep inclines - customers said no, never told him anything like that and this job site was nothing but a hill side. Field tech explained these units should not operate on hill sides for they will destroy their rubber tracks. Customer said while he was operating the Cat, he kept seeing small black chunks of rubber all over the ground and didn't realize they were the Cats rubber track drive lugs popping off until the track came off.

Cat dealership tried to bill him for this :laugh:

[ksss]

I hope Deere stays in the same neighborhood $ wise as they are now and if they have to take an increase, I hope it's not much so they can stay competitive.

Local Cat dealership goes through sales reps faster then most people change underwear, I think that the Full line guys are pimping them now, not sure.

The demo scenario sounds similar to around here as well - trying to stick the customer for something their shop could've prevented. Seen this some time back when one of my customers demoed a Cat CTL with the ASV undercarriage and it ate and tossed a track off. Field guy comes out and ask the customer if the Cat salesman told him not to operate the Cat on any steep inclines - customers said no, never told him anything like that and this job site was nothing but a hill side. Field tech explained these units should not operate on hill sides for they will destroy their rubber tracks. Customer said while he was operating the Cat, he kept seeing small black chunks of rubber all over the ground and didn't realize they were the Cats rubber track drive lugs popping off until the track came off.

Cat dealership tried to bill him for this :laugh:


Wow, thats a way to sell a machine. "I appreciate you demoing our machine and by the way here is a bill for 4K for running the machine on a side hill and eating a track.":dizzy:

[Digdeep]

I hope Deere stays in the same neighborhood $ wise as they are now and if they have to take an increase, I hope it's not much so they can stay competitive.

Local Cat dealership goes through sales reps faster then most people change underwear, I think that the Full line guys are pimping them now, not sure.

The demo scenario sounds similar to around here as well - trying to stick the customer for something their shop could've prevented. Seen this some time back when one of my customers demoed a Cat CTL with the ASV undercarriage and it ate and tossed a track off. Field guy comes out and ask the customer if the Cat salesman told him not to operate the Cat on any steep inclines - customers said no, never told him anything like that and this job site was nothing but a hill side. Field tech explained these units should not operate on hill sides for they will destroy their rubber tracks. Customer said while he was operating the Cat, he kept seeing small black chunks of rubber all over the ground and didn't realize they were the Cats rubber track drive lugs popping off until the track came off.

Cat dealership tried to bill him for this :laugh:

I can agree with you on the comments related to many of the CAT dealers only having primarily full line guys selling them now. The local CAT dealer up here let go their entire compact sales force.

I have to disagree with you..once again...:nono: on on some of the story. Me thinks you added a little "fish story" to the tale regarding chunks of rubber flying out of an undercarriage. Kind of on par with your past explanation and lesson to us on breakout (until I posted the actual SAE guidelines) and Case market shares that ended up bneing virtually identical to the Deere numbers in your counties even though you never see them out there in your territory (provided by my good friends at your local Bobcat store). I'm not saying your customer didn't relay a story to you that was real similar but based on all of the Bobcat, Deere, Takeuchi, ASV and CAT machines I've run on steep slopes I can't see some of what you describe happening. However, I love your posts, they have an air of boldness to them. :weightlifter:

[Digdeep]

I highly doubt we'll be more expensive than Cat. Maybe it's just around here, but Cat is usually sky high. Sold a CTL last month where I was 12k cheaper than Cat, and I made a healthy margin on the deal. The Cat salesman tried to convince the customer that their fuel economy would make up the difference in no time (for a guy who averages 200 hrs/year). Oh, and they also didn't check the track tension on their demo unit and tried to bill the customer for having a technician come out when the track came off.

CAT does seem to be real proud of their machines as evidenced by their prices. As a former salesman, I'm not sure I would ever make a statement like that related to fuel consumptions, especially to a customer that planned on only putting 200 hours a year on a machine. Maybe if it was some sort of high production stockpiling or dirt hogging operation, and then and only then if I knew damn certain what the fuel consumption charts were for the revs and loads the machines would be running at.

[Digdeep]

I hope Deere stays in the same neighborhood $ wise as they are now and if they have to take an increase, I hope it's not much so they can stay competitive.

Local Cat dealership goes through sales reps faster then most people change underwear, I think that the Full line guys are pimping them now, not sure.

The demo scenario sounds similar to around here as well - trying to stick the customer for something their shop could've prevented. Seen this some time back when one of my customers demoed a Cat CTL with the ASV undercarriage and it ate and tossed a track off. Field guy comes out and ask the customer if the Cat salesman told him not to operate the Cat on any steep inclines - customers said no, never told him anything like that and this job site was nothing but a hill side. Field tech explained these units should not operate on hill sides for they will destroy their rubber tracks. Customer said while he was operating the Cat, he kept seeing small black chunks of rubber all over the ground and didn't realize they were the Cats rubber track drive lugs popping off until the track came off.

Cat dealership tried to bill him for this :laugh:

Skidsteerman.....I had a chance to think about this post after going outside to split some wood, have a nice dip of skoal and finish my beer. I was a little direct and pointed. For that, I apologize because I meant no disrespect. I do enjoy your posts as I said earlier; however, I still disagree with some of what you said.

[ksss]

I can agree with you on the comments related to many of the CAT dealers only having primarily full line guys selling them now. The local CAT dealer up here let go their entire compact sales force.

I have to disagree with you..once again...:nono: on on some of the story. Me thinks you added a little "fish story" to the tale regarding chunks of rubber flying out of an undercarriage. Kind of on par with your past explanation and lesson to us on breakout (until I posted the actual SAE guidelines) and Case market shares that ended up bneing virtually identical to the Deere numbers in your counties even though you never see them out there in your territory (provided by my good friends at your local Bobcat store). I'm not saying your customer didn't relay a story to you that was real similar but based on all of the Bobcat, Deere, Takeuchi, ASV and CAT machines I've run on steep slopes I can't see some of what you describe happening. However, I love your posts, they have an air of boldness to them. :weightlifter:


DigDeep are you planning on doing some substitute teaching in English Lit. this year? That sounded very........ah.......Lit teacher like (for lack of a better term having a hard time finding the words).:laugh:

[Tigerotor77W]

It was probably the booze.

[Digdeep]

DigDeep are you planning on doing some substitute teaching in English Lit. this year? That sounded very........ah.......Lit teacher like (for lack of a better term having a hard time finding the words).:laugh:

Heck no! Sometimes my fiance thinks that the English language is my second language. I just started rambling.

[Skidsteerman]

Skidsteerman.....I had a chance to think about this post after going outside to split some wood, have a nice dip of skoal and finish my beer. I was a little direct and pointed. For that, I apologize because I meant no disrespect. I do enjoy your posts as I said earlier; however, I still disagree with some of what you said.

Disagree all you want with my statement, it doesn't matter to me I have thick skin:). I saw the black rubber chunks laying on the ground and the Cat setting there with a new track installed and listened to the story behind it from my customer. I was demoing against the Cat at the time is why I knew about it. Customer would not run it after that and told them to come pick it up.

EDIT: the black chunks were from the drive lugs Cats/ASV bonds to the underside of their rubber track. The Cats/ASV squirrel cage drive sprocket grabs these to drive the track.

[Digdeep]

Disagree all you want with my statement, it doesn't matter to me I have thick skin:). I saw the black rubber chunks laying on the ground and the Cat setting there with a new track installed and listened to the story behind it from my customer. I was demoing against the Cat at the time is why I knew about it. Customer would not run it after that and told them to come pick it up.

EDIT: the black chunks were from the drive lugs Cats/ASV bonds to the underside of their rubber track. The Cats/ASV squirrel cage drive sprocket grabs these to drive the track.

Brand spanking new machine ripping lugs off??? :nono: 257s are the worst for butchering lugs but even those don't throw lugs off when they're brand new. You're talking around 500 hours for that to happen. How big was that fish you caught?

[ksss]

Brand spanking new machine ripping lugs off??? :nono: 257s are the worst for butchering lugs but even those don't throw lugs off when they're brand new. You're talking around 500 hours for that to happen. How big was that fish you caught?


Beating up on CAT MTL's is about as sporting as clubbing baby seals, however if they tore lugs off that easy I think even CAT would have done something about that. The tracks must not have been PDIed correctly.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

Beating up on CAT MTL's is about as sporting as clubbing baby seals, however if they tore lugs off that easy I think even CAT would have done something about that. The tracks must not have been PDIed correctly.

I am suprised Cat took so long to come out with new tracks. Anyone in sales always look at the lugs when looking at trade in's. What is amazing is how brand loyal this market is. Even with this problem, you never see a used Cat on anyone elses yard around here...NEVER....Says something about the dealer in this area. They have a very good reputation.

[Skidsteerman]

Brand spanking new machine ripping lugs off??? :nono: 257s are the worst for butchering lugs but even those don't throw lugs off when they're brand new. You're talking around 500 hours for that to happen. How big was that fish you caught?

:nono: back at ya. I have no reason to blow smoke up your.... Because you've never seen this or heard of it, then it can't be true huh:rolleyes:


You must understand the hills down here are very steep and I'm sure this contributed to the track failure - the other side had some lugs gone but was still usable. I should have took photos but never really thought about it, ASV undercarriage in this area is a joke, maybe good in Florida running about on sand but not here. The insane cost to repair them is enough for most customers to have to take out a loan to pay for it.

Don't get me started on the great Loegering versa track pile of crap. Best thing there is I would never handle it because I could tell by the design it would destroy a sslder drive train. After seeing how it worked on competitor machines and the failures they dealt with along with the pissed off owners, I know I made the right choice.

[stuvecorp]

:nono: back at ya. I have no reason to blow smoke up your.... Because you've never seen this or heard of it, then it can't be true huh:rolleyes:


You must understand the hills down here are very steep and I'm sure this contributed to the track failure - the other side had some lugs gone but was still usable. I should have took photos but never really thought about it, ASV undercarriage in this area is a joke, maybe good in Florida running about on sand but not here. The insane cost to repair them is enough for most customers to have to take out a loan to pay for it.

Don't get me started on the great Loegering versa track pile of crap. Best thing there is I would never handle it because I could tell by the design it would destroy a sslder drive train. After seeing how it worked on competitor machines and the failures they dealt with along with the pissed off owners, I know I made the right choice.

Maybe you need to spend some time watching my Case with them(VTS) on? I also think with some very simple and common sense tweaks on a skid there would be no such thing as compact track loaders.

[Digdeep]

Beating up on CAT MTL's is about as sporting as clubbing baby seals, however if they tore lugs off that easy I think even CAT would have done something about that. The tracks must not have been PDIed correctly.

That comment is great- clubbing baby seals:laugh::laugh::laugh: interesting way to put it.

[Digdeep]

:nono: back at ya. I have no reason to blow smoke up your.... Because you've never seen this or heard of it, then it can't be true huh:rolleyes:


You must understand the hills down here are very steep and I'm sure this contributed to the track failure - the other side had some lugs gone but was still usable. I should have took photos but never really thought about it, ASV undercarriage in this area is a joke, maybe good in Florida running about on sand but not here. The insane cost to repair them is enough for most customers to have to take out a loan to pay for it.

Don't get me started on the great Loegering versa track pile of crap. Best thing there is I would never handle it because I could tell by the design it would destroy a sslder drive train. After seeing how it worked on competitor machines and the failures they dealt with along with the pissed off owners, I know I made the right choice.

You know....I've never seen a steep hill in my life..Missouri must have a monopoly on steep. Kind of Georgia and their red clay.

Didn't say I've never heard of it. If you read my post you'd see that I said the 257s are the worst on lugs. I just have a real hard time with your claim about a "brand new" machine doing this. Of course, everyone knows you've never made a blanket statement on this forum that wasn't true:rolleyes:

The undercarriage in your area may be a joke, but that is beside the point. While I think the system is a good one, others don't care for it. Different strokes for different folks.

[iron peddler]

he must be a selling machine if he can post in the middle of the day!!!! wish i had that territory, where i could afford to make posts during work hours.

[Digdeep]

he must be a selling machine if he can post in the middle of the day!!!! wish i had that territory, where i could afford to make posts during work hours.

I remember my sales manager when I first started selling for Bobcat telling me that he didn't want to see me spending much time in the office because it meant that I wasn't out in field selling. I spent more days than not behind the windshield for 12 hours a day towing and showing. This was in Wisconsin, one of the best skid steer markets in the world, along with MN, IA, OH and MI. 1 out of 5 skid steers sold in the world used to be sold out of these 5 states. I think all those days in the truck weekends included ended up driving me to teaching. It was a love/hate relationship by the time I left.

I think I would have been shot if I was caught in the office and not signing a sales order, demo request paperwork, etc.

[Skidsteerman]

Maybe you need to spend some time watching my Case with them(VTS) on? I also think with some very simple and common sense tweaks on a skid there would be no such thing as compact track loaders.

The local Case dealership was the first to go this route installing VTS on their units. None that I'm aware of held up. Two customers I know were trying to sue the dealership over the failures - all where the machines drive system failures, mostly hydraulics I believe. Only one pimping it now is Cat down here, not sure how well it's been working out for them.

[bobcat_ron]

Some people are still not learning that VTS isn't the best for their drive motors, that's why Cat has the VTS ready package with bigger drive motors.

[Digdeep]

Some people are still not learning that VTS isn't the best for their drive motors, that's why Cat has the VTS ready package with bigger drive motors.

The rub is that no OEM built their chains/sprockets/drive trains for the stresses that the VTS places on the machine. I think the concept is really good but there is a reason why none of the OEMs will honor the drive train warranty with the VTS on the machine. Loegering (now Terex) actually sells the insurance to cover any failures that may happen. From what I've seen and heard most machines handle the extra hydraulic and mechanical load pretty well (yes..even the Case skidsteerman:waving:) except for the NH machines. The VTS is hell on their chains and sprockets for some reason. Haven't heard of many problems with pumps on any particular brand though.

[stuvecorp]

Some people are still not learning that VTS isn't the best for their drive motors, that's why Cat has the VTS ready package with bigger drive motors.

How much more does it cost to get that? I am impressed that Cat at least offers the up grade.

I am disappointed that Case can't(or won't) beef the power train up to handle the VTS. How hard could it be? Throw the big axles in the 440(which should be in it any way), run the chains that the 450/465 have and do something with the drive motor.

[JDSKIDSTEER]

How much more does it cost to get that? I am impressed that Cat at least offers the up grade.

I am disappointed that Case can't(or won't) beef the power train up to handle the VTS. How hard could it be? Throw the big axles in the 440(which should be in it any way), run the chains that the 450/465 have and do something with the drive motor.

You have to realize that OEM's want you to buy their track machine. Why would they want to go out of their way to accomidate a competitive undercarraige. Cat had no choice at the time. They would not even rent a machine off their rental yards here with ASV tracks. Sort of like our crappy cabs.

[stuvecorp]

You have to realize that OEM's want you to buy their track machine. Why would they want to go out of their way to accomidate a competitive undercarraige. Cat had no choice at the time. They would not even rent a machine off their rental yards here with ASV tracks. Sort of like our crappy cabs.

I guess I understand that but the factory track machines are too one dimensional and the ride just sucks not to mention they are way over priced. After my Mustang track machine debacle I will never go with another dedicated track machine.

[Mr. Rain]

I guess I understand that but the factory track machines are too one dimensional and the ride just sucks not to mention they are way over priced.

What's a new VTS system, roughly $11-12 grand? Isn't that about the difference between a new wheel skid and the comparable track machine? Plus then you've got a machine that was designed to handle the loads a tracked drive places on it. I know a couple of guys with a VTS, and the tracks never come off the machines to run with wheels. I'm sure some swap them back and forth, but guessing most stay on tracks, so I wouldn't agree that the one dimensional aspect is a big concern for a lot of track machine owners.

[stuvecorp]

What's a new VTS system, roughly $11-12 grand? Isn't that about the difference between a new wheel skid and the comparable track machine? Plus then you've got a machine that was designed to handle the loads a tracked drive places on it. I know a couple of guys with a VTS, and the tracks never come off the machines to run with wheels. I'm sure some swap them back and forth, but guessing most stay on tracks, so I wouldn't agree that the one dimensional aspect is a big concern for a lot of track machine owners.

I do have to agree with you on the tracks get put on and never get taken off. I have not taken mine off yet and probably won't unless I would plow commercially for the winter. I plowed out the yard a little bit and the Mustang was not good at all yet our little Polaris(RC30) will plow great. The Case does fine also but not having a cab is more of a problem. If you add the new price of the VTS to a machine it likely is the same or more as a dedicated machine but many on here have picked up their VTS much cheaper so then it is a whole different argument. I realize that the fan club for the VTS is pretty small.:)

[Skidsteerman]

I realize that the fan club for the VTS is pretty small.:)

But yet for some odd reason, they are STILL offered:rolleyes:

I can't imagine Cat wanting to deal with it anymore what with their new CTL undercarriage out. I always felt the ATS was a band aid offering when they were still pimping the ASV undercarriage. Either way, both of those options make me shutter.

[ksss]

Some people are still not learning that VTS isn't the best for their drive motors, that's why Cat has the VTS ready package with bigger drive motors.


You may want to check that or maybe Carter knows. The VTS ready CAT to my knowledge did not offer larger drive motors or at least it didn't. It does delete the two speed.

[ksss]

You have to realize that OEM's want you to buy their track machine. Why would they want to go out of their way to accomidate a competitive undercarraige. Cat had no choice at the time. They would not even rent a machine off their rental yards here with ASV tracks. Sort of like our crappy cabs.


Exactly CASE is not going to do anything to support a competitor. I spoke with the engineering guys in 03 about the VTS. They had no plans to approve the attachment then and I don't think anything has changed.

If you use common sense I think it will be fine. The NH machines with their power upgrade and the smaller drive components (I am assuming those have not been beefed up, but may have) will surely have a problem with VTS.

I like the VTS set up.....so far.

If you pay 15K for a set your either in a bind and need a set PDQ or you don't know how to shop.