Installing our 16th Rain Bird ESP-SMT

[JimLewis]

We've been installing these ESP-SMT controllers for a little while now. Just about to install our 15th and 16th units tomorrow. Still loving these things.

One thing I love is these things are making our year a little more profitable. On an off year like this where installs are a little less frequent than usual, having a new hot item that we an upsell to previous or existing irrigation customers is making us some good money. I am surprised at how many people are going for it. If we talk to a customer in-person about this, we've experienced about a 50% close rate, which is way better than I imagined.

Our irrigation repair tech. is responsible for selling several of them so far. Together he and I have mentioned it to several customers we were doing work for and have sold quite a few.

I do have one complaint about the way the water-in times work. If anyone's interested, let me know. It doesn't quite work exactly how you'd think it would. But overall, our customers seem to really like the whole idea of weather-based watering and it's been an easier upsell than we anticipated.

Just wanted to write about my experiences. If you're not already talking to every irrigation customer or every irrigation repair customer about this (or your favorite brand's version of this) then I think you're missing the boat. This seems to be something people are keenly interested in. Even here in Oregon where water is fairly prevalent, water-savings seems to be something most people are very interested in.

[M L Thomas]

"I do have one complaint about the way the water-in times work." I would like to hear what you have to say on this. We are installing our first 2 ESP SMT's this week, have been and still using SmartLines also. There are some features on both that I like.

[hoskm01]

If there is any question in anyone's mind about weather based controllers or spot-on irrigation management, peep an Email I received from the President of one of our HOA boards. This place we are managing this year for the first time for us, though it is about 14 years old. Terrible management from the last company, but two new Signature controllers at the beginning of the year. Just put in two more last week, but they haven't yet contributed to the savings. Same site, also, that we installed 550 MP rotators at last year. This pic may be familiar (last year at MPR Project). All green this year, with a few spacing problems.

http://www.lawnlogistics.com/Storage/IMG_3141.jpg

Just a little horn toot here. I'm pretty proud!


Hello Matt,

I hope you avoided any wasp stings last week installing the new South Outlot sprinkler controller! That area certainly has grown quickly this year with the wet spring and summer as well as the sprinkler controller malfunction.

We have had an incredibly wet spring and summer; I cannot recall a time when the foothills have remained green into August in the last 30 years. But as of July, our water bill is down 90% from last year, with a total year-to-date savings of almost $12,000. This is primarily from water savings in the two large bills (June and July) we've received yet this year.

I'm certain much of the savings is due to a properly-managed sprinkler system! There are still a few dry spots cropping up, and I realize the weather hasn't been cooperative with getting roots to grow deeper this year, but I would say we have much greener, healthier-looking grass this year than last, with 90% less water, so thank You!

Thanks,

***** **********

[Tom Tom]

I do have one complaint about the way the water-in times work. If anyone's interested, let me know. It doesn't quite work exactly how you'd think it would.


What would that be Jim?

Have you, or are you able to track/confirm any real life water savings over the controllers that have been replaced? Maybe something as simple as looking at water bills from say before upgrade to after upgrade?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Pretty impressive MATT. That goes in a frame on the wall. Add to the intro literature on more high end work.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

"I do have one complaint about the way the water-in times work." I would like to hear what you have to say on this. We are installing our first 2 ESP SMT's this week, have been and still using SmartLines also. There are some features on both that I like.

I will be very interested in your experience. As much as I like Jim and respect his opinion I don't believe he got familiar with the SL as a frame for comparison. I'm also going to install a RB ESP SMT to see the difference. Have I mentioned though their best feature? They use screws and not those friggin speaker wire connectors on their terminals. Makes for easier troubleshooting and pigtail hook up.

[hoskm01]

I do love the screw terminals, so much easier.

Im trying to get a SMT sold for resi size, next one we put in, hopefully. Cant wait to get one going.

[Tom Tom]

Tougher sell down here it seems. Not sure if its all the rain and/or economy.

Heck, even with the 50% city rebate that's available, not many willing to give 'em a try.


I've even offered a couple FREE installs and/or super cheap just to be able to get some real life feedback/numbers.

Gotta push more

[JimLewis]

Hosk, nice job on that HOA place! What a great letter.

As for the water-in times problem I mentioned, here's what I don't like; As part of the zone information, it asks you if said zone is "established" or do you want to establish a grow-in period. So if you chose grow-in, it asks you to establish a watering window for that first. So let's say I just installed new seed. And I need my seed to stay damp all day to help germinate well. So for my climate, I'd typically set a time-based controller to water the lawn maybe 3 times per day for short durations (maybe a few minutes each time, just to dampen the area). So I would program the system to come on at say 8:00 a.m., 12:00 noon, and 5:00 p.m. That way, when it's sunny outside, it's getting 3 short bursts of water to keep the seeded area a little damp all day, during the hours when the sun would normally dry it out. At least in Oregon, that's the way you get seed to sprout and the lawn to fill in super quick.

Well, with this new SMT controller, it first asks you to set a water-in window. So thinking of how I normallly do it, I chose 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Then it asks how many times I want to water. I say 3. Then it asks how long. Let's say I chose 3 minutes.

So now I am thinking it's going to come on around 8, 12, and 5....... OH NO! That's not what happens. The way they've programmed it, the computer takes the 9 hour window I gave it and breaks it into 3 segments. 8-11, 11-2, and 2-5 p.m. Then it waters at the BEGINNING of each segment. So it actually comes on at around 8, 11, and 2. From 2-dark (which is about 9:00 these days), NO watering occurs. So now my new seed has about half a day without any watering, which is not optimal.

It's just a little counter-intuitive. I would think that the reason you set the last number on the grow in is because that's about the last time you want it to water. But no. If you want it to water last at 5:00, you gotta program your water-in window for around 8 or something. Which is kinda screwy.

They say they're going to change that. But I wish I had known this BEFORE I did some jobs with seed. It was a little annoying to find out how this worked AFTER the fact.

The nice thing is it asks you for how many days you want to do the grow in. So I may say 21 days or something (which is plenty of time to grow in a perennial ryegrass lawn around here in the summer) and then the controller Automatically reverts to weather based watering. I don't have to go back and reprogram the thing, which saves a trip back to the house. I like that.

[irrig8r]

What if you told it four cycles? Say a window between 8 AM and 8 PM? Would it divide into 4 periods and water at 8:00, 11:00, 2:00 and 5:00?

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

That is some pretty awesome stuff. Even with the headache reverting to a basic program is pretty nifty.

[JimLewis]

No. Then it would separate the 9 hour window into 4 separate segments; 8-10:30, 10:30-1, 1-2:30, and 2:30 to 5:00.

So your watering times would be APPROX. (and I say approx. because it's actually a little earlier) 8, 10:30, 1, and 2:30.

I noticed that when I expected it to water at 2:00 (even after knowing how it worked) it actually watered the lawn around 1:50 (depending on which zone I checked it could have been 1:47. 1:50, 1:53. etc) So I think what it ACTAULLY does is COMPLETE the watering by the beginning of the next watering "segment". So in reality, it wouldn't even be 8, 10:30, 1, and 2:30. It would really be more like 8, 10:10, 12:40, and 2:10 is when they would START.

Like I said, a little screwy.

[Mike Leary]

Just a little horn toot here. I'm pretty proud!

Well tooted! How about a "after" pic?

[Wet_Boots]

a twelve hour window divided four times would give you water at three-hour intervals

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

a twelve hour window divided four times would give you water at three-hour intervals

Ditto...Beat me to it. Seems like a math problem once you figure out the intricacies.

[JimLewis]

Sorry. I didn't notice he changed the water window to 8-8. My bad. I thought we were still talking about 8-5. (Working a lot today. Stopping to respond on my laptop in my pickup between stops. Not much time to read everything thoroughly....)

But you're right. The higher you take that end-time, the later in the day it will water. That's just a little backwards way to do it. You set a 8:00 time to get a 5:00 watering????

[Wet_Boots]

It makes sense from a computing standpoint, where every segment is equal. This reminds me of some of the programming difficulties there will be when a homeowner wants the watering to end at a fixed point in time, while the controller is changing zone running times.

[JimLewis]

Well, that shouldn't be a problem. There is a separate watering window for regular daily irrigation. If you want it all to end by a certain time, you just set the end of the daily watering window to that time and set the beginning early enough to get all the watering done. And you have to take into account the cycle/soak nature of this controller when figuring those times as well....

[Wet_Boots]

I generally do programming to start as late as possible, to end at a certain time. If a 'window' allows the start time for the watering cycle to move to an earlier point, to fit longer running times in, and finish watering before the "fixed point," then all is well.

Obviously, something simpler, like a Solar Sync, isn't going to be able to work this.

[M L Thomas]

The water window problem is the only frustration we have been working with on our first install of an SMT. It's nice that you can set up a grow in period and have it change on it's own but I do not like the way it determines the start times, I want to set the start times. The WM SmartLine has the SMT beat on this.

I think programming the WM is maybe a tad easier but not by much. A homeowner may have trouble with the SMT but any contractor installing one should have enough knowledge to go through it with ease.

But like FIMCO-MEISTER said the screw terminals on the Rain Bird are a BIG +. I just wonder when RB will change this to the push tabs like they did on the LX+.

[Mike Leary]

I just wonder when RB will change this to the push tabs like they did on the LX+.

I had to swap some zones on a Smartline the other day to keep our cisterns even; what a pain.:hammerhead:

[irrig8r]

No. Then it would separate the 9 hour window into 4 separate segments; 8-10:30, 10:30-1, 1-2:30, and 2:30 to 5:00.

So your watering times would be APPROX. (and I say approx. because it's actually a little earlier) 8, 10:30, 1, and 2:30.

I noticed that when I expected it to water at 2:00 (even after knowing how it worked) it actually watered the lawn around 1:50 (depending on which zone I checked it could have been 1:47. 1:50, 1:53. etc) So I think what it ACTAULLY does is COMPLETE the watering by the beginning of the next watering "segment". So in reality, it wouldn't even be 8, 10:30, 1, and 2:30. It would really be more like 8, 10:10, 12:40, and 2:10 is when they would START.

Like I said, a little screwy.

Jim, Look again at what I wrote. I gave it a 12 hour window...four 3 hour segments, so 4th cycle beginning 9 hrs after the 1st, or at 5:00 PM.

Is that not possible?


EDIT: Ah... continued reading.

So, anyway, I don't think it would be a hassle as long as you could set the window for 12 hours.

The seminar I attended didn't go into this, and the rep had to get back to me after consulting w/ the tech people. Maybe I should read the manual and see what it says.

:-)

[Az Gardener]

Jim any reports of water savings from early installs? I'm concerned about that for my area as these are programmed for optimum plant health rather than water savings.

I will admit they would save water vs most controllers I come across because idiots are programming them but not the ones we manage. I am watering every 3 days on established Bermuda. Every 3-4 days on my plant material and 5-7 days on trees. You know the temps I deal with here, I just can't imaging a smart controller pushing the plants as far as we do to conserve water. Thoughts???

All that said I am anxious to try one out I would just hate to sell water savings to have it use more water. I would look like a knucklehead.

[JimLewis]

Jim, Look again at what I wrote. I gave it a 12 hour window...four 3 hour segments, so 4th cycle beginning 9 hrs after the 1st, or at 5:00 PM.

Is that not possible?

EDIT: Ah... continued reading.

So, anyway, I don't think it would be a hassle as long as you could set the window for 12 hours.



Yes, it's possible. It's just annoying to have to do this. And I don't think most people understand that this is how it works. So unless you're speaking to one of the engineers who handled the programming (like I was) then you'd probably never know it worked this way and be really frustrated (like I was).

So yah, there's a way to work around it. I just don't think you should have to work around it.

[JimLewis]

Jim any reports of water savings from early installs? I'm concerned about that for my area as these are programmed for optimum plant health rather than water savings.

I will admit they would save water vs most controllers I come across because idiots are programming them but not the ones we manage. I am watering every 3 days on established Bermuda. Every 3-4 days on my plant material and 5-7 days on trees. You know the temps I deal with here, I just can't imaging a smart controller pushing the plants as far as we do to conserve water. Thoughts???

All that said I am anxious to try one out I would just hate to sell water savings to have it use more water. I would look like a knucklehead.

Well, you're thought process is correct. If you're already pushing your watering to the limits of what is necessary - AND - adjusting that controller regularly, then this controller isn't going to add up to as much savings as if you weren't doing all that. The main savings is for people who just use timer-based controllers and are watering every day or every other day for the same fixed time, all year. Those people are going to see some significant changes in water savings.

Also, a climate like yours where it hardly ever rains and temperatures don't vary a whole lot isn't going to be able to benefit from a controller compared to areas like mine where it can go from 107 and sunny (just 2 weeks ago) to cloudy and 70 and rainy (today) to cold and 55 and rainy (in 2 months). Climates where there are a lot of weather changes are really going to see a lot of water savings.

You're also correct that the controller comes pre-programmed to help keep plants healthy. They use a water table scenario. There is a name for this kind of programming. I can't remember what it's called. But basically, they monitor how slow the water table is sinking in the soil. Based on how much water was applied last time and then taking away E.T. from recent weather conditions. Once the water table reaches the 50% full mark, the controller waters that zone. So you may be pushing that all the way to the 90% empty point before you're watering. And that may be working because you're carefully monitoring and adjusting this. But Rain Bird doesn't want to assume that much risk so they just make it pre-programmed to water once the water table level gets to 50%.

The nice thing is you can adjust this number in the advanced settings. So if you want to get a landscape established and then push that number down over time, you can.

One thing you gotta understand with these controllers is they are NOT a plug-it-in-and-forget-it kind of unit. It's very likely that you may need to go back and make a few adjustments over time to things like this. So you gotta keep that in mind.

The one nice thing is once you get the balance right, you don't have to adjust the times from season to season. The controller does all that for you. So you may be watering 30 minutes in the summer and only 15 minutes in the winter. And maybe somewhere in between in the fall. With this kind of controller, you shouldn't have to come back and adjust it 2-4 times per year like you might have been doing. It will automatically do that for you.

[Kiril]

I will admit they would save water vs most controllers I come across because idiots are programming them but not the ones we manage. I am watering every 3 days on established Bermuda. Every 3-4 days on my plant material and 5-7 days on trees. You know the temps I deal with here, I just can't imaging a smart controller pushing the plants as far as we do to conserve water. Thoughts???

That is all you can get? I push many plantings here to 8-14 days, trees 18-24 days, turf (fescue) 3-5 days, but then I am dealing with clay loams and silty clay loams, with some sandy loams here and there.

With respect to the controller, far as I know it doesn't adjust watering interval unless something has changed since I read the manual, so set your interval to whatever you want, let the controller decide how much to water.

[Tom Tom]

With respect to the controller, far as I know it doesn't adjust watering interval unless something has changed since I read the manual, so set your interval to whatever you want, let the controller decide how much to water.


I wondered about that too, but it does adjust watering interval if you select, (in the, "allowed watering days screen") no restrictions.

[JimLewis]

With respect to the controller, far as I know it doesn't adjust watering interval unless something has changed since I read the manual, so set your interval to whatever you want, let the controller decide how much to water.

Are we still talking about the RB ESP-SMT or another controller here?

The SMT definitely DOES control not only the duration of watering per zone, but also the interval. It may choose to water 5 times one week and 1 time the next week. It adjusts your intervals for you, as well as the times.

[Kiril]

Are we still talking about the RB ESP-SMT or another controller here?

The SMT definitely DOES control not only the duration of watering per zone, but also the interval. It may choose to water 5 times one week and 1 time the next week. It adjusts your intervals for you, as well as the times.

If I set it (a program) to a day interval of 14, will it water on day 5?

[JimLewis]

Huh????

I mean, yah, you can do that. But why would you set a controller to come on only every 14 days?

I don't quite follow what you're meaning by interval, I guess.

[landscapeconcepts]

The screw terminals are AWESOME! I spit my coke on my computer screen when I read "speaker wire terminals", that made me laugh so hard. I don't care what they say about how they fixed the SL's transformer problem and the weather monitor problem. I have had to replace 7 since March out of my own pocket just to keep my customers happy. I can not tell you how happy I am to never buy another SL,

[hoskm01]

Huh????

I mean, yah, you can do that. But why would you set a controller to come on only every 14 days?

I don't quite follow what you're meaning by interval, I guess.
Deep watering of trees and such. Not the whole controller, maybe, but properly zoned trees and other deeply rooted plants... 14 days. More for some. The option would be nice.

[Kiril]

Huh????

I mean, yah, you can do that. But why would you set a controller to come on only every 14 days?

I don't quite follow what you're meaning by interval, I guess.

Smart controller or not, I program it like a non-smart controller, that way if the weather monitor interface dies for some reason, I still have a program in place.

Why 14 days or even 21 days (21 not possible with the SMT :hammerhead: )?

I say why not? If the plants in the zone only require water every 14 days, why would I water every 5 days or whenever the controller thinks it is time to water? The less frequently you put on water, the more you save. This is especially true with inefficient systems, which is more the norm than not. I don't need to maintain soil moisture at or near field capacity to successfully grow plants, regardless of what the boys at RB or WM think.

[JimLewis]

Ok. Well you got some weird atypical scenarios there. I am not sure the controller can do that.

So I'll just say this; this SMT is probably a good fit for everyone EXCEPT Kiril. :p

[JimLewis]

Oh, and one other complaint I have about this unit - the wire is nowhere CLOSE to long enough. They give you 25' of wire. I've never had a job -- out of 16 jobs -- where that was a sufficient amount of wire. We've always had to splice and add more wire. I wish they would include a sufficient amount in the kit. Is small thing guage wire really that freakin' expensive that they can't include 50' or 75' ???

I'm referring to the small 2 strand wire that goes from the weather sensor unit back to the controller.

Anyone know how much wire the comparable Smart controllers from WM and Hunter come with?

[Mike Leary]

this SMT is probably a good fit for everyone EXCEPT Kiril. :p

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[BSME]

Oh, and one other complaint I have about this unit - the wire is nowhere CLOSE to long enough. They give you 25' of wire. I've never had a job -- out of 16 jobs -- where that was a sufficient amount of wire. We've always had to splice and add more wire. I wish they would include a sufficient amount in the kit. Is small thing guage wire really that freakin' expensive that they can't include 50' or 75' ???

I'm referring to the small 2 strand wire that goes from the weather sensor unit back to the controller.

Anyone know how much wire the comparable Smart controllers from WM and Hunter come with?

I think the SL is 50' but I'm not totally sure... I only installed a couple.

I just installed a test SMT at my parents house and had to come home to get my spool of 4 strand wire. I can already tell that it not being wireless is going to be my main complaint.... followed by the dinky little 25' piece they give you.

[Kiril]

Ok. Well you got some weird atypical scenarios there.

Guess so, because everyone typically over waters and doesn't know squat about how to determine a landscapes water needs. So what happens .... buy a smart controller and schedule it to water everyday with the hope it will do the job correctly.

[M L Thomas]

I know from experience that they do listen to the beta test contractors and you have to think the contractors that beta tested this thing said that 25' was not enough wire. One we mounted needed almost 50' and I think that is going to be closer to normal. The one we are putting up today will probably need closer to 70'.

[JimLewis]

Guess so, because everyone typically over waters and doesn't know squat about how to determine a landscapes water needs. So what happens .... buy a smart controller and schedule it to water everyday with the hope it will do the job correctly.

Yah, but you gotta realize a few things. First, what works for you in your area is totally different for many others in different areas around the nation. Here in the NW, for example, plants are USED to getting water every day or two for a good 6-7 months out of the year. We don't have many "drought tolerant" plants in this part of the country. So watering requirements change DRAMATICALLY from one part of the year to the next. Heck, it can change dramatically even from one week to the next. Two weeks ago we had 107 degrees of pure blazing hot sun and today it rained half an inch and was mostly cloudy.

Two weeks ago - during that hot period - if you had been watering every 14 days - or even every 4 days for that matter - most of your plants would have died and the perennial ryegrass lawn would have been toast. So you're either adjusting your sprinkler system every week as weather changes dramatically like it does here - or you're using a smart system like this that does it for you!

Watering every 14 days might work for you where you have drought tolerant plants and grass maybe. But for those of us in the rest of the country where the weather varies a lot from season to season and the watering requirements over a 12 month period look like a bell curve - it's ideal.

Because without something like this in our area, you have only two choices;

1) Overwater most of the time
2) Adjust your times every week

Most people chose #1 and waste a boat load of water because they don't want to monkey with changing their times on their clock every week.

Any of this make sense to you???

[BSME]

Jim. I'm up and running... It looks like everything is working. It knows how hot it is (80 degrees).

The only watering restriction we have is you have to water between 11pm and 5am so I put that in. It looks like it's going to water at 11pm... is that right? This is my first crack at it and I have the manuals in front of me so I'll start reading but I'd thing it would go off as late in the morning as possible to be done by 5am.

teach me

[Mike Leary]

teach me

Learn it yourself and teach us. The zip code method is nuts.

[JimLewis]

The only watering restriction we have is you have to water between 11pm and 5am so I put that in. It looks like it's going to water at 11pm... is that right?

Basically, yes. It's a watering WINDOW. So that means it won't start any earlier than 11 and yes, it will be over by 5. Typically, the controller will start at 11:00 and go from there. But depending on your soil type, plant type, plant density, sun/shade factor, and slope of your zone, and current weather conditions - it may go into a cycle/soak mode. If it's a hot day and clay soil and a little bit of a slope, etc. it may need to water for 15 minutes, for instance. But it may also calculate that given the conditions, run-off is going to start happening after 10 minutes. So if it decides all this, it will run that zone for 10 minutes right around 11:00, and then it may let it soak in for an hour or two and then run AGAIN for 5 more minutes. So sometimes you can see watering occur at the start time (or beginning of the watering window) and then again later in the watering window because of this cycle/soak thing.

Not all zones will do this, either. Some may, some may not. But don't be surprised if you see it watering one day at 3:00. Could happen. It's just because it's in a cycle/soak mode.

In addition to that, it also calculates when the best time to water is, for your zip code. It could be that in your area winds are increased from 8 p.m. to midnight and then typically die off a little after midnight. So if that were the case, the controller might chose to water at 12:00 instead of 11:00 to avoid water loss due to wind drift.

[EagleLandscape]

If the heads were receiving the correct pressure... wind would be a minor factor on drifting:)

[BSME]

Thanks Jim,

I'll see what it does. Maybe I'll just tighten up that watering window. They only have 4 zones turned on.

It is cool though. You can already see that the max cycle it'll run for the sprays is 12 minutes.

[Mike Leary]

wind would be a minor factor on drifting:)

Wrong........:hammerhead::drinkup:

[EagleLandscape]

Wrong........:hammerhead::drinkup:

If the heads were receiving the correct pressure and only large water droplets were coming out?

My brass nozzles at my house still work great in windy conditions.

Smart controllers get too much credit for "fixing a system".

It should be the icing on the cake, and the reward for overhauling a system.

Much to be done before dropping some G's on a clock.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

If the heads were receiving the correct pressure and only large water droplets were coming out?

My brass nozzles at my house still work great in windy conditions.

Smart controllers get too much credit for "fixing a system".

It should be the icing on the cake, and the reward for overhauling a system.

Much to be done before dropping some G's on a clock.

John is 100% right here. Hold the clock back as a reward for fixing the system to meet manufacturer and smart design specs. Selling the clock first will not only lose you a lot of upgrade work it will also cause a lot of call backs and water waste.

[EagleLandscape]

However, tonight I probably installed my 200th or so smartline. 37 zone clock.

We are not the maintenance vendor, just sold them on the clock and then try to get repairs and then maintenance. there wasn't even as much as a clogged nozzle or a head with a bad wiper seal on this system.

FLAWLESS!

A few zones were reading 530mA, not sure if the solenoid was getting old, or if two zones were wired together.

[JimLewis]

Well, I agree you need to fix the system if it is designed improperly. Every system we install has PRS heads and U-Series nozzles and they're designed and zoned right so they are already about as efficient as they could be, except for the timer. So without the timer, no matter how efficient your heads and nozzles and valves are, you're still going to be watering too often and too much unless you're in an area where the weather hardly changes.

So having a smart timer is really a big part of the equation.

Even on older systems, we're always talking people into upgrading the entire system, not just the timer. We started a sod job Wednesday and started talking to the guy about redoing his sprinkler heads in the front lawn, since that's where we were working. This evolved into a discussion about redoing all his heads on his property since nobody had touched the system in like 10-15 years. So we ended up redoing his entire system with new PRS heads, new nozzles (the ones installed were way wrong for the current landscape) and of course, ended up up-selling this SMT controller too. Now he'll have a more efficient system than just about anyone in town.

Still, at least in our area, you replace an old time-based controller with one of these you're STILL saving the customer a ton of money and watering much less, even if you don't regulate the rest of the system.

It depends on what climate you live in. There is definitely a lot of waste due to improper pressure and wrong nozzling and wrong head placement. But in our area, the bigger problem is everyone sets their timers to water 10 minutes every zone every day and never change that the entire season. That's just stupid. Most of the time they are WAY WAY WAY overwatering. So an E.T. controller is probably the single most effective upgrade we could do for them - if we had to do only one.

[Kiril]

Any of this make sense to you???

What makes sense to me is by keeping your soils saturated you discourage deep rooting (or any rooting for that matter) and keep your plants in a generally unhealthy state. Shallow roots = more frequent water requirement. I have seen people over water new plantings year in and year out, and even 5 years down the road you can more times than not yank the plant out with your hands, the original root ball still intact with very little or no root development outside the root ball.

What I also understand is regardless of what you think is the typical landscape out here, FYI it is not drought tolerant natives. The typical turf here is fescue, which can be watered easily on a 3 day schedule, and in some rare cases 4-5 days in full sun.

We get no rain, temperatures average in the mid 90's in the summer with probably an average of 5-15 days per month over 100 depending on how far you are from the Delta. Soils around here in general range from sandy loams to clay loams and everything in between in general.

If a non-native plant can be kept in good health here on a 14 day schedule or more in these conditions, I don't believe it is a stretch to say that in other parts of the country that have similar soils and less severe climate the same could also be done successfully.

Does this make sense to you?

[hoskm01]

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/catfight2.jpg

[DanaMac]

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/catfight2.jpg

Death to the infidel!!!

[Tom Tom]

What makes sense to me is by keeping your soils saturated you discourage deep rooting (or any rooting for that matter) and keep your plants in a generally unhealthy state.


The smt isn't keeping the soils saturated.

[Kiril]

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/catfight2.jpg

Yea, well it never ceases to amaze me what people think of CA landscapes and the climate here.

We have 8 out of the 11 USDA plants zones (4-11) in this state, OR has 6 (4-9). Note how CA contains the same zones as OR, and with exception to some of the extreme northern states, contains the same zones as every other state in this country.

Also one might note similarities in soils.

http://www.soils.umn.edu/academics/classes/soil2125/img/4usoils.jpg

and in soil moisture regimes.

http://soils.usda.gov/use/thematic/images/drought_1_gen_area_map.jpg

But yet people still want to believe CA is completely different than the rest of the country.

[Kiril]

The smt isn't keeping the soils saturated.

Assuming you program it correctly (i.e. all the settings including accurate zone precipitation rates) and reasonable intervals between watering. For example, only watering plants that need water once or twice a month, every 10-14 days, not every day or every 2-3 days.

Tell me Tom, based on the above, how do you rate your average programming accuracy?

[Tom Tom]

Assuming you program it correctly (i.e. all the settings including accurate zone precipitation rates) and reasonable intervals between watering. For example, only watering plants that need water once or twice a month, every 10-14 days, not every day or every 2-3 days.

Agreed.

I see that a lot with drip zones out here. Its difficult to convince customers that they can cut the drip system way back after the plants get established.

[Kiril]

Agreed.

I see that a lot with drip zones out here. Its difficult to convince customers that they can cut the drip system way back after the plants get established.

Drip .... now that is a different ball of wax so it was good of you to bring it up. Depending on how it is installed, how often you water can fluctuate wildly.

For example SDI (subsurface drip irrigation). One method of keeping roots out of emitters and tubing is to keep the soil around the emitter constantly saturated. This can lead to a daily watering requirement, if even for only a few minutes. Ideally with SDI you may want to run it on two different schedules .... 1 to keep roots out of the emitters/tubing and 1 to apply the required water for the hydrozone.

Other types of installs (surface) can be extended for a considerable interval assuming when you do irrigate, you are restoring the required depth (potential/effective root zone) of soil to field capacity.

[Green Sweep]

Oh, and one other complaint I have about this unit - the wire is nowhere CLOSE to long enough. They give you 25' of wire. I've never had a job -- out of 16 jobs -- where that was a sufficient amount of wire. We've always had to splice and add more wire. I wish they would include a sufficient amount in the kit. Is small thing guage wire really that freakin' expensive that they can't include 50' or 75' ???

I'm referring to the small 2 strand wire that goes from the weather sensor unit back to the controller.

Anyone know how much wire the comparable Smart controllers from WM and Hunter come with?

I don't even use the supplied wire - it is never enough. I bought a 500' roll of white 18/2 that I use specifically for the SMT installs. White - because it is easier to hide in garages & along downspouts, etc.

I have installed 5 so far (including one in our office) & have several more on the board. Have never installed or serviced a WM so I cant compare. The technology is outstanding.

I agree that it is an unbelievably easy sell & cant believe that no one else here is doing it. We are the only company that has purchased SMT's from our supplier! We use the smart controller as an upsell option on our proposals (as well as PRS heads). We recently bid on a residential install. The lady after receiving our bid asked another contractor that bid on her job about the SMT & PRS heads. His reply was that they were just 'Gimmicks' for us to make money. We got the job, thanks.

I guess that I will have to learn about the WM once I sell a job with more than 13 zones.

[JimLewis]

I don't even use the supplied wire - it is never enough. I bought a 500' roll of white 18/2 that I use specifically for the SMT installs. White - because it is easier to hide in garages & along downspouts, etc.

Yah, we bought the same 500' roll. We've just been splicing it. I should just replace it, huh?

I agree that it is an unbelievably easy sell & cant believe that no one else here is doing it. We are the only company that has purchased SMT's from our supplier!

Agreed! About the same here. I think a few companies have bought maybe one to try it out. But I'm pretty sure we've bought and installed more than any other company in our area. But it's always been that way. I've always been installing cutting edge stuff while everyone else was still out there installing the same old heads, same old controllers, same old systems. Nothing to regulate the pressure. Nothing to stop the system if it rains. They're just installing BASIC systems. I made my mind up years ago I was going to totally differentiate ourselves from the rest of the marketplace and everything we installed from heads to nozzles to valves to controllers to add-ons like rain sensors (and now this SMT) was going to be standard with us. I give a nice 30 minutes presentation on all this stuff, leave them with really nice literature and show them demo units of all this stuff, explain the water savings that is involved with our systems, leave them with a huge list of references, and let them make up their own mind. So then they can decide whether they want to go with XYZ company who didn't even tell them anything about the system they'd be selling. They just wrote "8 zones; $4,500." and left. Or they can hire us, for a little more money, but get a state of the art system with perfect pressure regulation, quality parts, best controller on the market, and the best warranty in town. All this stuff is easy to sell, IMO because everyone else out there in the marketplace is still installing systems like it was 1999 or something!

We use the smart controller as an upsell option on our proposals (as well as PRS heads). We recently bid on a residential install. The lady after receiving our bid asked another contractor that bid on her job about the SMT & PRS heads. His reply was that they were just 'Gimmicks' for us to make money. We got the job, thanks.

I think that's a good idea. But I don't even give it as an upsell. I just say, "this is the type of system we install. And this is the type of system everyone else in the marketplace installs.

I swear our close rate is probably higher than most companies in the area because we're giving them a REASON to chose us. A REASON to pay a little more. I honestly believe people don't mind paying a LITTLE more - as long as they have a good reason to do so.

It's like buying a new water heater for your house. What if you were getting bids and 3 companies gave you a bid for a standard water heater for around $2000 and then you met with this other company who came in and educated you about the new tankless water heaters and showed you how efficient they were and how you'd always have hot water and never run out and still be saving hundreds of dollars a year in energy costs. What if this system cost $2500? Which one you gonna chose? For me, I'd chose the $2500 system that's going to be way more efficient and save me money in my energy bill every months. Now, I know some people would just chose the save the $500 for short term gratification. But I think given that scenario, a LOT of people are going to go with the tankless.

Same scenario here. We're offering people something WAY better than what everyone else is installing and selling it for just a little more. And if you do it right, It's a pretty freakin' easy sell. People are looking for stuff like this these days. Everyone's concerned about using less energy, less water, using natural resources better, and saving money. I don't care what part of the political spectrum you're from, saving money and using less is something that appeals to everyone.

[JimLewis]

What makes sense to me is by keeping your soils saturated you discourage deep rooting (or any rooting for that matter) and keep your plants in a generally unhealthy state. Shallow roots = more frequent water requirement.

LOL. Well tell that to Mother Nature. Because around here she is SERIOUSLY encouraging shallow roots due to her "more frequent watering".

Our plants here are USED to getting water on them every day or two for 6-8 months out of the year. So plants here get shallow roots now matter what. You can't change that. You just have to realize that and deal with it. Plants here are used to getting water a LOT more often than every 14 days. So you suddenly start to starve them from what they are used to getting for the last 6-8 months, AND you turn up the heat on them too?????? No, bro. That don't work. Plants start dying quick.

Your "theory" on shallow roots and watering might work well for some climates. But 'round here good ole Mother Nature is totally defeating that concept.

So again, we can't starve our plants like that and expect good results. But what you CAN do is water them according to the weather changes. One week can be 100 degrees here while the next week can be 60 and rainy. So having a system in place that notices those changes and automatically adjusts accordingly - as opposed to the traditional system around here that just waters 10 minutes, every zone, every day - is MUCH more efficient.

I don't know how better to explain it to you. I guess in your little bubble where you have the same weather all year or something, things like this aren't interesting to you. But for are area, this works great! It's a HUGE savings over how people typically over-irrigate here.

[M L Thomas]

Once again proof that you cannot specify 1 thing in terms of irrigation and have it work everywhere in our country. Same thing applies to the nonsense that the EPA has put into the WaterSense new home specs.

[Mike Leary]

Up here, shallow rooting is the norm because we have no subsoil, just clay and rock hardpan! Root rot is one of our biggest problems.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

As I've said before to K's dismay. Water the root zone you have. Not the root zone you wish you had. Root growth is genetic. They don't smell water and make executive decisions to proceed deeper.. Plants are lazy SOBs. They do only what they have to do.

[Kiril]

Once again proof that you cannot specify 1 thing in terms of irrigation and have it work everywhere in our country. Same thing applies to the nonsense that the EPA has put into the WaterSense new home specs.

Do I need to point out here that this particular aspect of watering interval was because Jim questioned why one would want to water every 14 days (i.e. in response to my response to Az's post.)

[Kiril]

As I've said before to K's dismay. Water the root zone you have. Not the root zone you wish you had. Root growth is genetic. They don't smell water and make executive decisions to proceed deeper.. Plants are lazy SOBs. They do only what they have to do.

That is pure B.S. Pete. If you don't water deeper than the root zone you have, you will never get deeper roots. Furthermore, you will not provide the necessary conditions for soil development if you keep that soil dry. From strictly a maintenance and conservation perspective, it is better to water deeper and keep the surface dry, than to keep the surface wet. Also you have not considered the benefits of nutrient availability due to increase soil volume with deeper roots.

If I have a soil that can support a 12" root zone, but have a turf that currently only has a 2" root zone, then what should I do.

1) Continue to water in support of the 2" root zone

2) Water deeper than the current root zone to encourage soil development and conditions more conducive for root growth and subsequent deeper rooting.

You are correct in that roots don't seek water, a point I have made time and time again, but roots will also not grow where conditions do not support root growth. FYI, dry soil does not support root growth.

Basically what you are saying is if a lawn or landscape has been historically over watered, and as a result the plants have very shallow root zones, then go ahead a keep watering it that way because nothing can be gained by encouraging deeper rooting. :hammerhead:

[Wet_Boots]

Just install Lawn Genie......

[Tom Tom]

hmmmmmmm, threads have disappeared........Dan hansen had a few, now they are gone.....

[SoCalLandscapeMgmt]

Eh... whatever... wasn't a useful dialog anyhow... just a couple of people bitching at each other. Guess that's what happens when I type when I'm pissed off. Had an entire truck and trailer stolen off a job site on Thursday afternoon. $60K worth of truck and equipment gone in under 30 seconds. The crew stood there and watched somebody drive their truck and trailer away. No sign of the truck so far. It may show up next week somewhere... all the equipment will be a total loss I'm sure. I'm sure that the crooks are happy that I just put a brand new 36" Exmark walk behind on that trailer a few months back.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Yikes Dan..Sorry to hear that.

[EagleLandscape]

...Welcome to the story of my summer...

[SoCalLandscapeMgmt]

They found the truck last night. I went and picked it up. It had been dumped. All of the equipment and the trailer is gone but the truck itself is in perfect shape so that is good. Coincidently they happened to find the trick literally one block away from the home of the two employees who we suspect may be involved in the whole thing. The P.D. will be talking to them tomorrow and paying them a visit at their homes to see what they can find.

[Mike Leary]

Coincidently they happened to find the trick literally one block away from the home of the two employees who we suspect may be involved in the whole thing.

What, were they running hookers on the mowers?

[EagleLandscape]

two of your employees help setup the heist?

was your equipment covered?

ours is covered thankfully, it is well worth it. Allows me to go and buy all new stuff the next day so we can not get behind, its worth the couple grand a year.

[SoCalLandscapeMgmt]

We think that it may have involved two employees. We're still trying to figure things out but it sure looks that way. The irritating thing is that we're literally in the middle of getting an Inland Marine policy in place to cover all of our small equipment.

[mitchgo]

I'm sorry to hear that dan. That's freaking crazy!

Have you personally confronted the suspicious guy?

[Mike Leary]

We think that it may have involved two employees. We're still trying to figure things out but it sure looks that way.

It's happened to most of us. :cry:

[SoCalLandscapeMgmt]

I'm sorry to hear that dan. That's freaking crazy!

Have you personally confronted the suspicious guy?

Not yet... we're waiting on a couple of things. The truck is equipped with Teletrac but for some reason that unit wouldn't respond. I'm going to have Teletrac pull the unit and see if it logged any data while it was stolen. I was all ready to get in the guys face this morning but I figured I'd just let the police do their thing rather than tip the guy off and spook him. I want them to catch him with the equipment at his house which is where we suspect it is.

[BSME]

Who knows HOW the rain sensor works? We've had some decent passing thunderstorms and it hasn't recorded any rain. I went up there, took it apart, played with it, and put it back together and it recorded .02". So I don't know if it started recording (there were a few drops of water in there) or if it just recorded me playing somehow.

[JimLewis]

Well, there is a tipping bucket inside the weather sensor. So once it collects a certain volume of rain (e.g. 1/20th of an inch) then it tips over and counts that amount of rain. So by nature of a tipping bucket, if it's tipped, it's tripped. So if you had the wire connected and were tilting the whole weather sensor unit, you could have easily tipped the bucket and tripped the counting mechanism.

Alternatively, it may have just collected that much rain.

But that's how it works. And in my experience, it's been spot on. Last week we had .5 inches of rain recorded by the local weather service and sure enough, 2 of the units we installed I checked the next day and they both reported .5" of rain.

[BSME]

Alright. I got the tipping. But how does it KNOW the sensor tipped? There are any wires connected to it and it doesnt have any contacts on it. It just looks like a floating plastic tipper.

[JimLewis]

Each unit comes with it's own specially trained flea. Rain Bird buys them at only the best flea markets. The flea's job is to watch for when the bucket tips. When it does, he goes over to a miniature keyboard that is not visible to the naked eye. He uses his little flea fingers to type in his secret code that only he knows. That tells the system that it the rain tipping bucket has officially tipped. Then he just goes back and sits and waits.

It's like the bird who waits in the mailbox in the Flintstones. Boring job because most of the day you're just sitting there. But that's why they hire fleas. They do it, do it well, and do it cheap.

[BSME]

Each unit comes with it's own specially trained flea. Rain Bird buys them at only the best flea markets. The flea's job is to watch for when the bucket tips. When it does, he goes over to a miniature keyboard that is not visible to the naked eye. He uses his little flea fingers to type in his secret code that only he knows. That tells the system that it the rain tipping bucket has officially tipped. Then he just goes back and sits and waits.

It's like the bird who waits in the mailbox in the Flintstones. Boring job because most of the day you're just sitting there. But that's why they hire fleas. They do it, do it well, and do it cheap.

alright fine! I'll just get someone to stand by the clock and tell me if it's recording any rain when i take it out and flip it back and forth... maybe it can "hear" it or feel it

[JimLewis]

I think if you take the tipping bucket out and do that, it shouldn't work. But who knows.

Honestly, I think it must hear it or feel it. I don't see that it's connected with a wire. So there must be some other way. But who knows? Maybe it has a tiny wireless sensor inside of it that sends a short radio wave over to some other part of the unit.

I know the guy who was in charge of this division at Rain Bird - the guy who created this unit. And I have his phone numbers. But I'm not going to call him for this.... I just know that it works like it's supposed to and seems to be reliable. That's all I care to know about it. I'd rather spend my time out selling the systems than worrying about how they work. Not a put down. Everyone's different. That's just my personality. I am not the kind to tinker with stuff and figure out how they work.

[BSME]

I'm with ya. I don't really care how it works. I just care about how to fix it (it's not recording the rain)

[Mike Leary]

Have you considered pilot error? :rolleyes:

[M L Thomas]

Get a hose and spray onto the unit, it will record it on the display. If not the unit is defective or you have done something wrong.

We have found them to be very accurate.

[BSME]

funny.

but of course. it's part of the normal troubleshooting. Seems hard to mess up though. It comes assembled. There isn't any adjustment on it. It seems like as long as it's in a spot it gets rained on it'd work. And I know it's communicating because it's giving me the temps.

[BSME]

alright. that little silver thing on the side is a magnet. it'll only increase by .02" if you take the cup all the way out and put it back in.

Water does make it tip but it will not record it.

frustrating. this is why I did the demo on my parents system.

[JimLewis]

I don't get what your so frustrated with and why you had to take all this apart.

It rains probably more in my area than any other part of the country and I've had 5 of these units out in the field since last September. No problems. No worries. Not even a thought of the tipping bucket not working correctly. In addition, we've installed a bunch more over the last 2 months and no problems. I don't understand what all the concern is about. You're just concerned that maybe some day it might get jammed up and you'd have to take it apart??

Are you using the mesh cover that goes on top? Does it rain sand in your area???? Did you feel it wasn't working correctly? I don't understand why you're so worried and frustrated with this.

[BSME]

Jim.

I've had this in for at least a week now I believe. In that time we've had at LEAST three thunderstorms that would have turned the Hunter wireless wet for a day. Until I took it apart today to see if something was in there it has recorded ZERO rain. I'll go look it up but I know we had to have inches not tenths of rain in that amount of time.

*It's raining and it's not recording it*. That's why I took it apart. I as well took with blind faith that it would work at first.

[Mike Leary]

We've got three 90+ zoners that have flow sensing.I'm writing proposals to install these. Jim is right about rain up here, but sure have none to speak of this year. Windage is right up there with our waterfront sites.



www.davisnet.com/weather/products/index.asp

[JimLewis]

So there are a number of possibilities here, I guess. Only one of which is faulty rain gauge.

One, maybe you don't know how to look up historical weather data correctly. Maybe you're looking in the wrong place.

Is the system recording the proper high-low temperatures each day? What does it say for high and lows for the past 5 days?

Two, maybe there is a bad wire or the wire is crimped. I had that happen on one system we installed. Just the wire we had installed was crimped or broken so it was getting intermittent signal. I had to replace the entire length of wire.

Three, maybe the sensor is located in a spot where something is blocking the rainfall. Is there a tree, upper roofline, anything at all above the sensor or directly around the area above the sensor that could be blocking it?

Four, something wrong with the rain gauge.

What city do you live in? I'd like to look up what the actual recorded rainfall was for that city over the last week.

Finally, maybe something got into the upper part of the unit, the bowl shaped device. Maybe water isn't gettiing TO the tipping bucket.

Have you tested it manually? I'd take a half full glass of water and SLOWLY pour it into the top and see if the red light comes on and see how much rainfall it measured.

Lastly, why isn't your RB rep. involved? If I was having that much of a problem, my RB rep. would be the first guy I'd call. He'd be out helping me figure out what I did wrong or what was going wrong within 24 hours. Or at the VERY least, he'd be helping me diagnose it over the phone. And I'd say 90% of the time when I get this frustrated with something that wasn't working correctly, it turned out to be something me or my workers did wrong. Anyway, it's nice to use their support. That's what they are there for.

[Mike Leary]

why isn't your RB rep. involved? If I was having that much of a problem, my RB rep. would be the first guy I'd call. He'd be out helping me figure out what I did wrong or what was going wrong within 24 hours. Or at the VERY least, he'd be helping me diagnose it over the phone. And I'd say 90% of the time when I get this frustrated with something that wasn't working correctly, it turned out to be something me or my workers did wrong. Anyway, it's nice to use their support. That's what they are there for.

Even if the rep calls you a dimwit, you've learned something.

[JimLewis]

Agreed. And that's happened to me before....more than once....:rolleyes: