Spray rigs for Compost Tea :What have we learned?

[replenish&subdue]

I would like to learn from you who have pioneered the way.
What spray rig do you use? What kind of agitation (jet,paddle or other),pump,filter,tip or tips,and source to buy.
Do you brew your own or use the concentrated (sleep microbes)? In what situation would you use one or the other (shrubs,lawn)?
And maybe we could talk about pricing?
I read an old thread that went on for 24 pages that was classic.Treegal gave good specifics on what worked for her,Tim Wilson chimed in with his research,Tad Hussey and ICT Bill gave their approaches.But that was then.How this field is continually brewing and developing.Where are we at now?What have we learned?

[JDUtah]

I have learned CT is overrated.. compost is better. ;)

[replenish&subdue]

Wow,that is a statement. I'm sure there has been research to verify that whether it is true or not. Tea is sure easier to apply.
J.D.,your a research sort of person where did you come up with that. Since tea comes from compost but the microbes are multiplied in the brewing process then how can you say compost is better if the brewing is properly done?

[JDUtah]

Sorry to start the thread off on such a note. My bad.

I will admit it is easier to spray 3 gallons of CT then to apply 50 lbs of compost, but IMO the best things about compost are all but lost when you extract or brew a CT… OM, nutrients, and soil building amendments.

I see it this way. The primary goal of an LCO CT application is to inoculate the soil with microbes. All others have proven to be unreasonable and inefficient IMO. Anyways, nowhere have I seen any evidence that the microbes you inoculate the soil with are needed, survive for a significant amount of time, or aren't already there in the soil. Let's look at those individually...

Required soil microbes
These are the microbes that your soil needs in order to convert organic molecules and matter into mineral compounds that are plant available. Microbe selection is HIGHLY dependent on...
1) Soil Organic matter source
2) Soil Moisture
3) Soil Type
4) Soil Temperature
5) Oxygen Availability

Microbe Survivability
Relatively the life of a single microbe is extremely short. Microbes are highly susceptible to death via a limiting factor. When you apply a CT with a spike of microbes, can you assume even 5% of them will survive more than an hour after the application? (I have yet to see ANY related study). In fact I have heard soil scientist say while talking about compost applications (Not even CT) that.. "When you apply the compost, the microbes in the compost doe and become food for the microbes that are indigenous to the soil". SO if most the microbes are doomed to death because the soil environment is NOT the same as that found in a compost pile or a CT... Then why spend time trying to grow them out in the first place?

Need for inoculation
Related to the other two points is the fact that your soil already has hundreds/thousands of species of microbes. IMO nature doesn't need to you inoculate soil at all. For instance, microbe spores originating in Africa have proven to travel clear across the Atlantic (via dust) and affect coral life on the other side of the ocean.

I really don't think we need to worry about adding microbes. What we do need to worry about is adding nutrients that the soil/microbes/ and PLANTS need and then leave it to nature to select which microbes make these organic nutrients plant available. And the reason I say I believe CT is ovverated and compost is better is because adding a CT adds a MINIMAL amount of nutrients, OM, or soil building amendments... adding compost adds significantly more of all of these... and adding compost sublimated with various meals and or mineral ferts is the best option IMO.

Research? I see the research every day. Add just CT... nothing. Add Compost... nice. Add compost plus a meal... even better. Add compost plus a mineral supplement... WOW.

[replenish&subdue]

Hopefully someone will chime in to confirm your view. Right now a little hard to receive since for one the organic heads exalt it so highly and two ,I had such good sucess in the handful of yards I tried it on in the spring. I brewed three batches from a brewer I got from K.I.S. and used their product and seen plants in my beds grow like they lived in Alaska and I have been throwing the everything on my synthetic shelf on them the past 8 yrs. One customer had fungus (two types) so bad that her lawn company told her to re sod the entire yard. I applied two treatments of tea and a 1/4 layer of cotton burr compost (woops) and the yard transformed,fungus no more.
I'll hope others will respond to your take AND ANSWER MY ORIGINAL QUESTION.
Thanks J.D. ,always weigh your input.

[phasthound]

Compost tea has it's benefits and drawbacks, compost has it's benefits and drawbacks, biologically active products have their benefits and draw backs, chemicals have their benefits and drawbacks.
Endless discussions have their benefits and drawbacks.

One of my spray rigs has a 500 gal and a 25 gal tank for versatility, an old Comet diaphragm pump with an 11Hp Honda. Depending on what I'm applying for I use a JD-9 gun, a custom flat nozzle gun from GreenPro Solutions, but more often than not I just spray direct from the hose using a ball valve to control volume & pattern. I spray anywhere from 50psi to 200psi.

[lawncuttinfoo]

I would like to learn from you who have pioneered the way.
What spray rig do you use? What kind of agitation (jet,paddle or other),pump,filter,tip or tips,and source to buy.
Do you brew your own or use the concentrated (sleep microbes)? In what situation would you use one or the other (shrubs,lawn)?
And maybe we could talk about pricing?
I read an old thread that went on for 24 pages that was classic.Treegal gave good specifics on what worked for her,Tim Wilson chimed in with his research,Tad Hussey and ICT Bill gave their approaches.But that was then.How this field is continually brewing and developing.Where are we at now?What have we learned?

I use a 500 gal Turbo Turf hydroseeder. Dual Jet Agiation. Monarch 333 GPM 72 PSI pump and 13 HP Honda.
Brew my own.

The problem I am running into is that this large of a pump is heating up the batch very fast. Espically when the tank gets under 75 gals full. Once at 50-75 gals the brew is too hot to be of any value and I must scrap the last 50-75 gals.

[Turboguy]

You might want to try reducing your engine RPM and closing the agiatation valve almost completly. Instead of setting your spray power by the agitation valve, use the RPM of the engine to control your spray power.

That should let you spray with almost no recirculation and should eliminate the heating problem. The CT would for the most part pass one time through the pump and right out the hose.

Hope that helps.

[lawncuttinfoo]

You might want to try reducing your engine RPM and closing the agitation valve almost completely. Instead of setting your spray power by the agitation valve, use the RPM of the engine to control your spray power.

That should let you spray with almost no recirculation and should eliminate the heating problem. The CT would for the most part pass one time through the pump and right out the hose.

Hope that helps.

I was under the impression that this and all air-cooled engines must be operated at full throttle to cool properly.


As a side note I am maxing out at 2GPM (at full throttle and all agitation closed) out the end of the 300' 1/2 inch hose (even with the spray gun removed) I know with the hydroseeder 1.25" x 100' hose attached there is much more than 2 GPM output.
Is there a calculation I can do to figure out exactly how much GPM I can achieve by increasing the diameter or reducing the length of the hose?
(maybe I am missing something but these are the only two variables I can see)

[Falcon50EX]

I was under the impression that this and all air-cooled engines must be operated at full throttle to cool properly.


As a side note I am maxing out at 2GPM (at full throttle and all agitation closed) out the end of the 300' 1/2 inch hose (even with the spray gun removed) I know with the hydroseeder 1.25" x 100' hose attached there is much more than 2 GPM output.
Is there a calculation I can do to figure out exactly how much GPM I can achieve by increasing the diameter or reducing the length of the hose?
(maybe I am missing something but these are the only two variables I can see)
An air-cooled engine can run at slower RPMs then max. High RPMs means high heat and that is what will destroy any engine.
I have a 4hp spray rig and it puts out 2gmp so yours should put out much more. What type of pump and do you have and inline filter.
If you are running a HYpro pump check the check valve to see if one of them may be stuck open. Or if you have a roller pump check the rollers for wear.
:usflag:

[lawncuttinfoo]

An air-cooled engine can run at slower RPMs then max. High RPMs means high heat and that is what will destroy any engine.
I have a 4hp spray rig and it puts out 2gmp so yours should put out much more. What type of pump and do you have and inline filter.
If you are running a HYpro pump check the check valve to see if one of them may be stuck open. Or if you have a roller pump check the rollers for wear.
:usflag:

When the fans are not at max there is not enough airflow thus making it run hotter at lower RPM's (many posts on lawnsite about this)

Brand new centrifrigual pump rig, nothing is worn out.
As I mentioned, with the larger hydroseeder hose attached my GPM are much higher (~25 GPM?)

Ya there's an unclogged filter but I highly doublt it is at fault.

[Falcon50EX]

When the fans are not at max there is not enough airflow thus making it run hotter at lower RPM's (many posts on lawnsite about this)

Brand new centrifrigual pump rig, nothing is worn out.
As I mentioned, with the larger hydroseeder hose attached my GPM are much higher (~25 GPM?)

Ya there's an unclogged filter but I highly doublt it is at fault.

13hp Honda If you are talking about the fly wheel fan it does not move that much air. The most important part of and air-cooled engine is to keep the fins clean so that they can dissipate the heat. With higher RPM you will have higher heat. That heat should not transfer to the pump and into the liquid. What you can have is the heat that is generated from the pump dissipates into the liquid.
I always stare with the easiest to fix on trouble shouting a problem.
So, on the last post I was not trying to be condescending.
What is the viscosity of the hydro seed? I have never used it and have you tried to spray it since you have had this problem?
I will look up the pump and motor, but for now I have to get back home an hour flight.
:usflag:

[replenish&subdue]

On a past post someone recommended a high volume,low pressure centrifugal PUMP. Does anyone know the company who makes these pumps? I also read from previous posts to use a 12'' two quart w/80 mesh FILTER. Someone mentioned a 500 gallon tank but I would likely want to spray most out in 3-4 hrs. and thought a 300 gallon might better fit the need if I use a 4 gallon/minute tip. Just bouncing it off for your confirmation or correction.

[RigglePLC]

Where do you have your pressure regulator set? I have a similar set up for weed spray and get about 3.5 gallons per minute at 100 pounds pressure. There are formulas for calculating flow rates for different pressures and diameters of hose. I don't know where. Talk to a hose or tubeing company or their site. Rule of thumb:
to double the flow you must increase the pressure 4 times.

[Turboguy]

I have a lot of the forumulas for line loss etc in my office but they are in various places and would take a while to find.

Going to the 3/4" hose would have the greatest effect and should double the flow to the nozzle. Do you have the tee jet gun on that? If so there is a red nozzle with higher output and if you don't have that it might be an easy answer.

FWIW the 1.25" hydroseeding hose with the 50800 nozzle has an output of 50GPM. +/-

[lawncuttinfoo]

13hp Honda If you are talking about the fly wheel fan it does not move that much air. The most important part of and air-cooled engine is to keep the fins clean so that they can dissipate the heat. With higher RPM you will have higher heat. That heat should not transfer to the pump and into the liquid. What you can have is the heat that is generated from the pump dissipates into the liquid.
I always stare with the easiest to fix on trouble shouting a problem.
So, on the last post I was not trying to be condescending.
What is the viscosity of the hydro seed? I have never used it and have you tried to spray it since you have had this problem?
I will look up the pump and motor, but for now I have to get back home an hour flight.
:usflag:

I know they are two seperate issues, 1. the CT heat is from the pump. and 2. I do not want to overheat the engine.

Yes I have sprayed it, this is a hose issue.

[lawncuttinfoo]

I have a lot of the forumulas for line loss etc in my office but they are in various places and would take a while to find.

Going to the 3/4" hose would have the greatest effect and should double the flow to the nozzle. Do you have the tee jet gun on that? If so there is a red nozzle with higher output and if you don't have that it might be an easy answer.

FWIW the 1.25" hydroseeding hose with the 50800 nozzle has an output of 50GPM. +/-

I am getting the 2 GPM max even with the entire gun removed, (nozzle AND gun)
Same 2 GPM with teejet gun and CT nozzle on.
Must be soely a hose issue.

[terrapro]

I am getting the 2 GPM max even with the entire gun removed, (nozzle AND gun)
Same 2 GPM with teejet gun and CT nozzle on.
Must be soely a hose issue.

I agree, get a bigger hose. It might not be soley a hose issue but hose is a big factor. I know this much my 10,000galperhr pump will seem like it is dribbling out at 2.5galpermin with my 400ft 3/8" hose. My 5/8 hose will dump anywhere from 6-8galperminute with a fantastic spray pattern from a teejet with gray nozzle.

[terrapro]

I agree, get a bigger hose. It might not be soley a hose issue but hose is a big factor. I know this much my 10,000galperhr pump will seem like it is dribbling out at 2.5galpermin with my 400ft 3/8" hose. My 5/8 hose will dump anywhere from 6-8galperminute with a fantastic spray pattern from a teejet with gray nozzle.

Oh yeah I almost forgot to respond on the original question.....

In my opinion CT is the appetizer, compost is the main course, and meals are dessert.

You can do alot with a CT and meal program but it is just not the same as compost from a good source.

[lawncuttinfoo]

I have a lot of the forumulas for line loss etc in my office but they are in various places and would take a while to find.

Going to the 3/4" hose would have the greatest effect and should double the flow to the nozzle. Do you have the tee jet gun on that? If so there is a red nozzle with higher output and if you don't have that it might be an easy answer.

FWIW the 1.25" hydroseeding hose with the 50800 nozzle has an output of 50GPM. +/-

Thanks, for the reducing RPM idea, 7 hours after inital fill the solution had only increased temp slightly, I'm guessing from ambient temps. And the pump which used to get too hot to touch was cool to the touch the whole day.
I had thought I needed to keep as much water going through the pump as possible to keep it cool which is why I kept the recuralition on. Strange but true less water goung through it and its way cooler.

Oh, and I attached a 2" hose to the quick connect at the end of the day to empty the tank. LOL I turned it on and the thing was flying through the air like a loose fireman's hose in a cartoon. Emptied 75 gals in less than 10 seconds.

[Turboguy]

I am glad I could help.

I have done a lot of seeding with a 2" hose and nozzle and yes, it does put the material out very fast. I also got infront of one when someone accidentally turned it on. We have a photo on our bulletin board of what I looked like and the only similarity I can think of is a very old horror movie, the creature from the black lagoon circa 1950's.

I don't think you will have any problems at all running at the lower rpm.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

I USE 400 FT OF 3/8 HOSE AND GET 2 GAL PER K AND THAT IS THE MAX
AT A GOOD WALK
if i slow my walk down i can get up to 3 gal per k
i am usind a hypro d30 pump and 5.5 honda
i have used the hydro seeder to do large areas real fast sit on tail gate and shoot

[Falcon50EX]

It sounding like you have the problem under control. If you keep the pump and engine clean on the outside, to dissipate head and change the oil on a regular basses they will last. The engines I run produce 3800lbs of thrust each so heat is a big deal.
:usflag:

[Grohorganic]

I have learned that a flat tank lesco c200 is BS, other than that its a clean out game......

good use for lesco tanks, veg oil sucker

[CharlotteOutdoorImpact]

I was wondering if a 200 gallon spacesaver by lesco could be used to spray CT without the pump harming anything... Is there a way to neutralize the tank before spraying? My other thoughts were to use a separate tank and put in a tee with a valve and switch the tanks and use the same pump and hose... any thoughts?

[Grohorganic]

yes you can use the space saver, C200, but it sucks to clean!!!!! thats why it is now the veg oil sucker....

the pump and motors got refitted to a round bottom feed tank

[CharlotteOutdoorImpact]

I didn't realize that was what you were talking about.. I might just get a devalan 12 volt from pressuretek.com and use a whole separate set up for spraying CT.

[ICT Bill]

I didn't realize that was what you were talking about.. I might just get a devalan 12 volt from pressuretek.com and use a whole separate set up for spraying CT.


A great site is rittenhouse, they have been making spray rigs for 60+ years, they make all of the rigs for weedman
http://www.rittenhouse.ca/ they are based in Canada but have distributors in the US that drop ship for them
They know compost teas and have special set ups for them

[CharlotteOutdoorImpact]

I will check rittenhouse out. I do know that I can build a devalan set up for about $400 (I have a 100g tank) I might go without a hose reel at first to cut back on cost. I am looking for a skid sprayer (used) at the same time, it would be nice to have one motor and pump that could be used with interchangeable tanks for different uses.. maybe use a quick connect of some kind to attach the tanks.. Does anyone think there will be any problem with residue (pre emergent or post) in the pump or hose that will have a big impact on the CT?

[FOL]

Mine is for sale. I will give you a hick of a deal. Need money fast. I do hate to sell though. But at least I know it will be put to good use.

[FOL]

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=275352

For some reason Lawn Site is not letting me load anymore pics. But above is the link to see it from a different view.

[ICT Bill]

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=275352

For some reason Lawn Site is not letting me load anymore pics. But above is the link to see it from a different view.

They will not allow you to load the same picture twice, why I have no idea
A work around is to reply to your own post which will include the picture. sometimes you can rename it and it will be allowed to be posted other times not

I found I have to format it differently, again why I have no idea
apologies for not getting back to you today, I am jammed until late in the week with deadlines

[Kiril]

They will not allow you to load the same picture twice, why I have no idea
A work around is to reply to your own post which will include the picture. sometimes you can rename it and it will be allowed to be posted other times not

I found I have to format it differently, again why I have no idea
apologies for not getting back to you today, I am jammed until late in the week with deadlines

That would be to prevent people from uploading the same pic 10,000 times and eating up server space. If you look in your attachment list you can find the images you have uploaded and link to them directly. You are lucky they even support attachments, many sites do not.

[Kiril]

For some reason Lawn Site is not letting me load anymore pics. But above is the link to see it from a different view.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148475&stc=1&d=1242590882

[FOL]

Thanks Kiril. Its a steal guys I am willing to work something out as well. Please email ASAP if you know of anyone interested. I am in the Tampa Bay area and willing to travel to meet someone if they are serious.

[Turf Tech]

I agree, get a bigger hose. It might not be soley a hose issue but hose is a big factor. I know this much my 10,000galperhr pump will seem like it is dribbling out at 2.5galpermin with my 400ft 3/8" hose. My 5/8 hose will dump anywhere from 6-8galperminute with a fantastic spray pattern from a teejet with gray nozzle.

Friction loss on a 400' 3/8 hose is huge. You would have to be running very high pressure to get any kind of volume out of it. The higher pressure will kill the microbes. You will have to shorten your hose or increase the size of the hose to fix the problem.

[lawncuttinfoo]

Speaking of cleaning, my 500 gal. turbo turf unit is a breeze.

Although I have no experience to compare it to. It is very easy to clean and for some reason never collects build up (smooth and rounded sides?) All particles and residue flow easily into the sump when cleaning out at the end of the day.
Quick release hoses also help allot.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

so true on the cleanup
turbo turff is great