Less water requirements

[Smallaxe]

All the time that the "Sustainable Crowd", have been saying that indigenous landscape takes less water than mowed lawns. However, at this time we continue to soak the shrubs and perennials, even as we are trying to get the grass to dry up.

We have had a lot of rain and cool weather and the grass is growing faster than we can get it mowed. I have shut off the irrigation, waiting for the soil to dry, as a result, the incidental plantings around the yard start to wilt.

Many of the indigenous trees are dropping a lot of leaves already, ahead of the normal 'fall'. Yet the lawns are clean and healthy.

My observation indicates that grasses are superior to perennials/shrubs for holding soil, ease of open space, fewer misquitoes, durability, etc., etc. All with less water.

[Az Gardener]

Problem is even though the plant is indigenous it has never been treated as indigenous. It has been watered frequently and fertilized to get it to size, then it gets to its new home it continues to get water because that's the way it looks its best.

It gets way more water than it would in nature and the guy that controls the irrigation system has no incentive to push that plant to get it weaned from the irrigation system and only use it as a last resort in a drought situation.

You can look at pic's of my jobs and see even though I live in the desert my properties don't look like it, so I am not one of those guys. Some times people just don't think things through.

Hell here most cacti are on irrigation in a landscaped home, because that is the way they were grown. They don't have roots spread out 6 ft in all directions like they would had they grown naturally, they have 8" of roots and they are mostly straight down because that is where they are watered.

[White Gardens]

We are getting leaf drop early this year, but I'm contributing it to the fact with all the rain we've had, that tree growth has been about max this year.

I feel the leaves of the trees are just "shedding" on top of the fact it's been the perfect storm kind of year for fungus and disease.

I generally see leaf drop this time of year, but I've never seen as many as we did a week ago. We had some 60 MPH winds come through and strip out the weak leaves.

I agree about the grasses. Where I'm located, the whole area was an open prairie and the only trees were in groves that were protected from wild-fires. Grasses and some prairie flowers resist all the conditions we can throw at them.

[Smallaxe]

Problem is even though the plant is indigenous it has never been treated as indigenous. It has been watered frequently and fertilized to get it to size, then it gets to its new home it continues to get water because that's the way it looks its best.

It gets way more water than it would in nature and the guy that controls the irrigation system has no incentive to push that plant to get it weaned from the irrigation system and only use it as a last resort in a drought situation.

You can look at pic's of my jobs and see even though I live in the desert my properties don't look like it, so I am not one of those guys. Some times people just don't think things through.

Hell here most cacti are on irrigation in a landscaped home, because that is the way they were grown. They don't have roots spread out 6 ft in all directions like they would had they grown naturally, they have 8" of roots and they are mostly straight down because that is where they are watered.

I agree that, that is the biggest issue. People not allowing the natural order to take place. I never water my grasses at home, only what gets hit when watering the garden. This year the grass never turned brown, but to keep the fruit trees, bushes, and vegetables actively producing fruit I had to hit them several times this season, with a good soaking.

I have, heavier soil here, while a client on the sand, set out the sprinkler a couple times in July and kept their lawn from browning. With very little effort - this year. Meanwhile, those with irrigation put down a 1/2" of water every other day all summer long.

Then... grass that has been dependant on irrigation all these years, actually dies back when the sprinkler stops for a while. This was good soil and always mowed high because it was so rough. Yet it could not handle what unirrigated, sandy turf went through.

...even though the plant is indigenous it has never been treated as indigenous. Good point! :)

[Kiril]

My observation indicates that grasses are superior to perennials/shrubs for holding soil, ease of open space, fewer misquitoes, durability, etc., etc. All with less water.

And chances are .... you are wrong. Come back with some soil moisture readings, effective root zone estimates, and estimated ET for your non-turf plants then we can talk about irrigation requirements for shrubs.

[Az Gardener]

And chances are .... you are wrong. Come back with some soil moisture readings, effective root zone estimates, and estimated ET for your non-turf plants then we can talk about irrigation requirements for shrubs.

Requirements vs actual practices are two different things and that is what Ax was pointing out.

I did a consult on a huge master planned community, several builders and little gated villages within the whole place, it was about two square miles of single family homes. They had a lot of plant death and the developer was turning the property over to the HOA. HOA expected the developer to replace all the dead plants one more time, developer said the HOA has been in control of the L/S for over a year its their fault.

It was all Xeriscape plant material,no turf. The developer had put a narrow common area strip between the side walk and the street that was controlled by each homeowners irrigation controller, using their water. So the homeowner was watering it and the HOA has a big LCO coming by to trim the trees and the shrubs. Bad situation, I found most people after as much as two years had not changed their irrigation controller from the time the install was done. So most systems were running 40 min every day of the week year around :dizzy:. I took a random sampling to see how they were watering and over 70% were still on that schedule. I should go back out there and try and sell some smart controllers...

So while the shrubs required less water the fact that they were on drip the water was not visible to the homeowners so it never even occurred to them to adjust the irrigation controller. I had one guy said he didn't even know he had an irrigation controller. If they had lawn and sprinklers they would have noticed the sprays were on every day and probably was not needed in Dec Jan, Feb etc. and they presumably, would have taken action.

[Kiril]

Requirements vs actual practices are two different things and that is what Ax was pointing out.

I think that is what I was pointing out.

[Smallaxe]

I think that is what I was pointing out.

I appreciate AZ helping to make the point clear. I think we are all saying the same thing.

I am specifying that - left on their own with what ever weather was available - eventually the grass would overtake the perennials and producing heavy competiion for water on trees and shrubs.

The shrubs would never enter into the grasses around here. Old abandoned homes and landscapes demontrate that.

Funny thing is - what these old timers called landscapes, were xeriscaping. No Nurseries to speak of. :)

[starry night]

Smallaxe. Without regard to water, grass plants and "shrubs" have different habits of growth. Grass spreads naturally, by rhizomes or tillers. Shrubs
(evergreens or woody ornamentals) grow larger but may or may not spread. Depends on the kind of shrub. Some are invasive; some colonize; some stay put. Again, without regard to water.

[Smallaxe]

Smallaxe. Without regard to water, grass plants and "shrubs" have different habits of growth. Grass spreads naturally, by rhizomes or tillers. Shrubs
(evergreens or woody ornamentals) grow larger but may or may not spread. Depends on the kind of shrub. Some are invasive; some colonize; some stay put. Again, without regard to water.

Exactly. :) Grass is naturally invasive. It was Designed to cover in areas that need protection from erosion. It was designed to get all the water it can - first, and have a protective surface that huge amounts of water can run over without picking up much soil. It was designed to survive long periods of heat and drought, freeze and suffocation under ice, better than any periennial or shrub around.

We want our landscapes to perform just as we want our turf to perform. So we do a lot of stupid, wasteful things to both. We will water the heck out of gardens because we need more flowers.
Yet the turf was able to perform with very little supplemental watering.

The perennial gardens would NOT have produced much at all in foliage or flowers if given only the amount of water set for the turf.
All of my clients put additional water on the landscapes. Check your own neighborhod, it would be good too see which ones ACTUALLY need less water than grass and still perform. :)

[Kiril]

Check your own neighborhod, it would be good too see which ones ACTUALLY need less water than grass and still perform. :)

In my "neighborhood", that would be ALL landscapes. I don't know where you have gotten this idea that grass/turf consumes less water than perennial landscapes plants, but in the VAST majority of cases, this is NOT TRUE! Turf is BY FAR the #1 water consumer in the landscape.

[JDUtah]

I'm eating a fresh 'organic' peach grown in my backyard. It's sooo good!

[starry night]

I'm eating a fresh 'organic' peach grown in my backyard. It's sooo good!

What, you didn't want to start a separate thread for this epiphany?

[ICT Bill]

What, you didn't want to start a separate thread for this epiphany?

I hope our NPP helped out a bit to get those peaches.
Make sure you hit them early in the spring at leaf bud and every week until full leaf flush, you can also hit them after harvest to set up for next year

It is a systemic resistance thing that your are trying to propagate in the tree, give the plant the right tools and they can defeat the foe themselves. I'll try to remember to send you some rhizo-food, you'll love it

1 ounce per per DBH mixed with 2 gallons of water as a drench, late fall and again in late spring

[JDUtah]

I hope our NPP helped out a bit to get those peaches.
Make sure you hit them early in the spring at leaf bud and every week until full leaf flush, you can also hit them after harvest to set up for next year

It is a systemic resistance thing that your are trying to propagate in the tree, give the plant the right tools and they can defeat the foe themselves. I'll try to remember to send you some rhizo-food, you'll love it

1 ounce per per DBH mixed with 2 gallons of water as a drench, late fall and again in late spring

Seriously that NPP did wonders! Not a single blossom end rot on the tomatoes (people have struggled with it locally this year), the pumpkin didn't die (it usually does) and has two (currently) 20 lb pumpkins, and the peaches are sooo good. Did I mention the raspberries? I planted them this spring, picked these off this morning...

ps... the flower beds (well garden) are using less water than the lawn, drip lines on a timer to grow your food = easy. :) The veggie garden integrated into your landscape = priceless.

[Smallaxe]

In my "neighborhood", that would be ALL landscapes. I don't know where you have gotten this idea that grass/turf consumes less water than perennial landscapes plants, but in the VAST majority of cases, this is NOT TRUE! Turf is BY FAR the #1 water consumer in the landscape.

This is ONLY because turf managers USE way too much water. :)

I am saying - Shut off the water for one season and see it you still have lawn in the fall -then - Compare that to how many lovely flowers you had during the summer.

Annuals are way over the top!!! By the time they establish themselves where you can cut back on the water a little bit - it gets too hot for them to keep lush foliage and lovely flowers, without more water.

It is the way we culture the plants that makes it wasteful of water. As well as NPK. We foolishly waste many things in regards to horticulture. Then we wonder why we need to treat for fungus and friends.

My ambition is to establish a landscape and lawn that doesn't require all these inputs. Clients are going to be cutting back, which is good, but they aren't likely to do it wisely. Doing it wisely requires a realistic understanding on how things work.

The more water grasses have the more they respire. That doesn't mean they need anywhere near that amount. It doesn't even need to grow, but we like it to be green. Yet again, unnecessary.

Yes, having a shaded lawn is different than - 2 acres of KBG, baking in the sun all day and mowed at a 2" hieght once a week. That is the foolishness of our turf culture, that I refer too.

[Kiril]

This is ONLY because turf managers USE way too much water. :)

No, that is because it is true. All of my perennial landscapes that are watered with traditional sprinklers I push to 7 days or more, with most generally ranging in the 10-15 day interval. Some established perennial landscapes I push to 21+ days between water application. Show me a lawn that receives no rain input that will look acceptable (or even survive) on that schedule and I will point out it is astroturf.

Annuals are way over the top!!!

Annuals generally have the same water requirement as a lawn, which is why I suggest planting annuals along the lawn border.

My ambition is to establish a landscape and lawn that doesn't require all these inputs. Clients are going to be cutting back, which is good, but they aren't likely to do it wisely. Doing it wisely requires a realistic understanding on how things work.

Good deal ... sustainable landscapes should be the rule not the exception.

The more water grasses have the more they respire.

HUH??? If water is not limiting, then transpiration is not impacted by how much more water is available. In fact, you may very well get a negative impact (reduced rate) of transpiration in a saturated soil due to reduced root function.

That doesn't mean they need anywhere near that amount. It doesn't even need to grow, but we like it to be green. Yet again, unnecessary.

I agree, and with proper irrigation (assuming that is your primary source of water) and soil management you can reduce the rate of growth to a point that only requires mowing once every 2-4 weeks and still keep the turf green and in good shape.

[Smallaxe]

Kiril, you always forget, that we are in rural America and that lawn irrigation is viewed as a stupid waste of money. Setting it on a 21 da. cycle is nothing compared to 6 -8 weeks with no rain, yet continuing to protect the soil from becoming dusty in the wind and sometimes staying green in the shaded areas.

This year the rain was adequate enough for the wild flowers and berries to produce all through the woods. The grasses were non-stop.
Very rare is it that many wild flowers or berries flourish during August season. The wild grasses always look green even in the drought years.

Just here on this farm we have hundreds of naturally xeriscaped eco-systems to observe year after year. The grasses are taken for granted, because they never fail, but when the natural flowers appear - that is noteworthy. The only limitting factor is water.

[Kiril]

Axe,

You stated that grass requires less water than perennials .... I merely pointed out that in the vast majority of cases this is NOT true.

I don't know what you are talking about with the other stuff as it does not apply to the original topic.

[Smallaxe]

Axe,

You stated that grass requires less water than perennials .... I merely pointed out that in the vast majority of cases this is NOT true.

I don't know what you are talking about with the other stuff as it does not apply to the original topic.

I pointed out that even in natural Ecosystems grass does better than perennials. The natural ecosystems will contain your candidates for xeriscaping.

I can imagine that in many artificial landscapes, and clinical trials, and field research stations, that various perennials use less water than grass. What I am saying that the natural setting should be teaching us something about our landscapes.

If we focussed on the Right Plant in the Right Place we may have realized that it also applies to grasses. Hybridized KBG is much weaker than its naturalized cousin, Junegrass.

The natural shadegrasses in the woods are light green but form a nice forest floor space, and flourish in the heavy leaf mulch. No cleanup, no thatch, only 3-4 inches of decaying mulch that never dries out.

We are not talking apples to apples here. The research has been skewed because they were testing the wrong plants, in the wrong growing conditions.
That is why making blanket judgements base on clinical trials cannot give you the whole story, it can only give you another tool. The whole story, fits together as you can see the big picture.

[Kiril]

I pointed out that even in natural Ecosystems grass does better than perennials. The natural ecosystems will contain your candidates for xeriscaping.

In most natural ecosystems, grasses will go dormant in times of drought (be it normal for the region or not), and will do so far quicker than perennials in most cases. Not that I have a problem with dormant/dead grass, but most people do.

I can imagine that in many artificial landscapes, and clinical trials, and field research stations, that various perennials use less water than grass. What I am saying that the natural setting should be teaching us something about our landscapes.

What good do observations of "natural settings" do for you when dealing with a very unnatural landscape?

We are not talking apples to apples here. The research has been skewed because they were testing the wrong plants, in the wrong growing conditions.
That is why making blanket judgements base on clinical trials cannot give you the whole story, it can only give you another tool. The whole story, fits together as you can see the big picture.

You have completely lost me here. Want to clue me in to what has started you on this current rant?

There is nothing "natural" about turf grasses, why are you trying to draw comparisons between the native wild grasses and turf types? The point of the matter is, most people have no interest in maintaining a "no mow" natural grass system .... which is a damn shame. There are similarities between the two systems, but only to a point.

Let me ask you this. Since you keep referring to a "natural" system, how can you compare a dormant/dead grass to an actively growing perennial? Out here, all wild grasses die out or go dormant in the summer, however most (not all) native perennials do not. With respect to dormant/dead vs not, then you are absolutely correct .... perennials use more water than a dead or dormant grass.

Bottom line, if you design a landscape using natives, and treat it like a native, naturalized area, then you have very little to do with your landscape providing you can accept the natural cycles. Restore the soils to their "native" status, and let the landscape do what is appropriate for the region without any added inputs or maintenance.

If there is a drought, then let the plants go dormant or die ..... if leaves or branches accumulate on the ground then let them stay ..... if a disease infects your plants, leave it alone. These are some of the "natural" ways to maintain your landscape.

When you and everyone else starts to design and "maintain" their landscapes to mirror the regional natural ecosystem, then you might have something to talk about.

[Smallaxe]

Restoring soils to their native status, assumes we know what the native status was. Illinois has a thick layer of topsoil that settled into the huge multi-state flatlands.
Here we have sandy hills, topped with clay sometimes and little OM.
Prairie grasses supposedly dominated certain areas, but we were mostly trees.

We should be able to learn from natural settings, not necessarily mimick them completely. We do not enjoy the forest right outside the door step. Deer ticks crawling from below and misqitoes divebombing from above - are actually controlled most readily - by no irrigation and mowing only as necessary.

A healthy stand of grass will requires very little input whereas if you want lovely flowers you need to weed, mulch and many times supplement with a soaker hose.
With grass, you just mow.

That is all I am really saying. Didn't mean to give the impression that I changed the course of the opening post and went on a rant.

It certainly may be true in your area, that grass does not do as well as some perennials. Around here, unmessed with grasses do better than most anything else, but not as good as dandelions.

The biggest problems I see with grasses is that we constantly messing with them. NPK and root inhibitor, first thing in the spring. Dethaching, aerating, and a constant harvest of OM and some more NPK all the while getting way too much water.
Now there is a rant. :)