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View Full Version : I think I made a big mistake with MSMA


greenman5000
08-24-2009, 06:02 PM
Hello,

About a week ago I switched to using MSMA for crabgrass control from drive, because it was so much cheaper. I blanket sprayed a few lawns because the crabgrass was so bad.

These lawns have turned completley brown. I realize that it says on the label some discoloration may occur, but I am talking a dark, solid brown. Is it normal for them to discolor that much? I hope I am not going to have to replace there lawns.

I checked my math, even going back to the jug (which was new) and measured whats left to make sure I did not mix to hot. I used 1oz per K, The temps were a little hot, but it does not say not to spray in the heat on the label, only that effectivness may be reduced in temps over 70 degress.

The grass was primarily fescue.

kirk1701
08-24-2009, 06:27 PM
Made the same mistake myself last year oh just about this time of year. If the temps were above 90 or near that I'd say you did the same thing I did, cooked the grass along with the weed :cry:

Since then, anytime I use MSMA its to kill off the crabgrass/foxtail by painting on just what I intend to kill.

Like you said, its cheaper and if you can substitute time for expense (which it is in my case) its worth it.

SpreadNSpray
08-24-2009, 06:32 PM
We need pics.

Some guys are good with MSMA. I like Drive, I don't need to worry.

Joshuakwhit
08-24-2009, 06:48 PM
this time of year i mix msma @ .5 oz. per k

kirk1701
08-24-2009, 06:53 PM
this time of year i mix msma @ .5 oz. per k

Hmm.
Would never thought of that. Will have to test try that in a area behind me.

My property of course.

grassman177
08-24-2009, 06:58 PM
on any label with msma i have alwasy read not to apply over 80 degrees. that could be the problem along with drought stress, stressed turf cant handle that chemical. so use is very limited really. just my thoughts

greenman5000
08-24-2009, 07:04 PM
Made the same mistake myself last year oh just about this time of year. If the temps were above 90 or near that I'd say you did the same thing I did, cooked the grass along with the weed :cry:

Since then, anytime I use MSMA its to kill off the crabgrass/foxtail by painting on just what I intend to kill.

Like you said, its cheaper and if you can substitute time for expense (which it is in my case) its worth it.

When you say you cooked the grass, are you talking about a total kill, or did it come back?

greenman5000
08-24-2009, 07:06 PM
One positive is that it did rain alot about 4 days after the application, all night and one morning from hurricane bill stalling near us. There was almost 7.5" in my rain guage.

RigglePLC
08-24-2009, 07:15 PM
Tall or fine fescue? (Fine cannot take much MSMA--if any.) My experience was not pretty, LOL. Not particulary effective in my experience. Temperature sensitive. Over 80 is good--over 81 is bad.

Runner
08-24-2009, 07:33 PM
Does the stuff really work on crabgrass? I mean REALLY??? I am willing to give it a try, but just don't know. What are you guys using - just spreader/sticker, or mso?
And what about the nut sedge? Does it actually work?

pimpilicious
08-24-2009, 08:13 PM
i mix it at .39 mils a gallon. but ive never blanket sprayed an entire lawn. when crabgrass has matured drive wont control it(just brown the tips a bit) msma is a perfect substitute when crabgrass has matured. mix it right and apply it right you should have great results. with most herbicides when the temps are hotter go lighter. msma is nothin to play with. those who have used it find out rather quickly its good stuff. lol (burn baby burn):laugh:

EVM
08-24-2009, 08:37 PM
this time of year i mix msma @ .5 oz. per k

It won't work/ it will be half assed, trust me. I have been messing around with MSMA and surfactant for the past month. .5 oz per k will turn the crabgrass yellow then 3 weeks later the crabgrass will be green again.

To the original poster, what did you use to spray the MSMA with? Did you use a surfactant?

I just sprayed a couple of places the other day at with MSMA @ 1 oz per k & 1.5 oz per K of momentum; so far so good.

I know for a fact you can't stand in one place to long when spraying MSMA.

I use MSMA for dallisgrass & nutsedge. Crabgrass is not on the label for MSMA. You can use MSMA at a lower rate for nutsedge/dallisgrass; it seems.

VARMIT COMMISSION
08-24-2009, 09:04 PM
EVM, are you sure that crabgrass is not on the MSMA label?

grass4gas
08-24-2009, 09:09 PM
I just started using MSMA for the first time in many, many years. Was using trimec plus up until a couple of years ago.

My main problem with either was burn potential. Trimec plus was a little less harsh than straight msma, but you had to shake up your mix each time prior to spraying, because if you didn't...:cry: By the way, you also should be doing that with msma.

Before I applied any msma to my customers lawns this summer, I treated some crab, foxtail, dallis grass in my own lawn. The results were darn good. Had some chickweed present as well, the label says it would kill, and damn if it didn't. I only decided to use it this year due to all the rain that we had. Lawns are growing and are not stressed, so everything worked out.

My mix was in a shurflo backpack @ 1oz/2gal with sticker, with temps in the low 80's at the time and spot spraying.

I would not blanket spray unless you let your customer know that there could be some burning issues.

kirk1701
08-24-2009, 09:34 PM
When you say you cooked the grass, are you talking about a total kill, or did it come back?
I spot treated, the lawn looked like brown patch and I already had some of that so I couldn't tell the brown patch from what I sprayed :dizzy:

Ended up over seeding the whole lawn last fall.

Does the stuff really work on crabgrass? I mean REALLY??? I am willing to give it a try, but just don't know. What are you guys using - just spreader/sticker, or mso?
And what about the nut sedge? Does it actually work?
I've been using MSMA for both plus foxtail. Will kill all three you mentioned but as I said on the first page, I paint on the weeds due to the temps and I have a fescue lawn.

My next experiment will be with Bermuda grass :clapping:

EVM, are you sure that crabgrass is not on the MSMA label?
It is on mine

johnsonslawnmanagement
08-24-2009, 10:08 PM
ECM, read your label more closely. MSMA is the staple for crabgrass control here in the south.
Original poster, this time of year, MSMA is best used at .5oz per gallon on non irrigated lawns and .75 on irrigated lawns (blanket app.) and a follow up spot treatment at same rate in 2 weeks. Your follow up will be cake because all the mature crabgrass will be yellowed out and the young stuff will be dead. MSMA will also control nutsedge if it not past the 3 leaf stage. If past 3 leaf, use Image. But most importantly, read the label!
Posted via Mobile Device

grassman177
08-24-2009, 10:19 PM
label label label. but yeah, it smokes crabgrass, dallisgrass nutsedge and johnson grass. i mean smokes it. just have to be cautious. i am going out in the morning with some mixed aboard the zspray along with surge and q4. i found it cost beneficial to have all on board because if you are generally treating for broadleaf and nutsedge, q4 just eats up profits. i love the stuff, but have to use it wisely. msma is cheap but i use sparingly for those lawns that q4(quinclorac) wont do much for. i like having a few choices at my ready,

ted putnam
08-24-2009, 10:45 PM
I use MSMA at a 1oz/k rate except when temps are hitting 93-95 and above with high humidity. I also never use it on drought stressed turf. The lawn must be irrigated or we must be receiving enough rainfall to keep the lawn from being drought stressed. I spray it on bermudas mostly spot apps as well as blanket apps. It will knock fescue for a loop at those rates, at least in this area. If I were to use it on a sure enough Fescue lawn(which there aren't any really in my area) I would spot treat only. Finding that magic rate of MSMA that is just right for the conditions at hand can be tricky. Spray technique plays a role as well in determining just how much "setback" there will be. There is a fine line between just enough and to much.

EVM
08-24-2009, 10:53 PM
EVM, are you sure that crabgrass is not on the MSMA label?

Crabgrass is not on the label for the MSMA product that I have. It could be on the label, it's not on mine though. My label reads like this:

LAWN AND ORNAMENTAL TURF
Target® 6.6 is useful for control of dallisgrass, sandbur,
bahiagrass, nutsedge, barnyardgrass, chickweed and wood
sorrel with little or no injury to good lawn grasses.

ted putnam
08-24-2009, 11:12 PM
Crabgrass is not on the label for the MSMA product that I have. It could be on the label, it's not on mine though. My label reads like this:

LAWN AND ORNAMENTAL TURF
Target® 6.6 is useful for control of dallisgrass, sandbur,
bahiagrass, nutsedge, barnyardgrass, chickweed and wood
sorrel with little or no injury to good lawn grasses.

The only thing I've found that works on barnyard grass is a good pre-emerg app in the Spring. MSMA at high rates will have little effect on it. Thank goodness it's an annual... By the way, I've also found it has little to no effect on oxalis(yellow woodsorrel) except when mixed with 3-way or some other BWC.

KES
08-24-2009, 11:13 PM
Kirk1701 - Use it on bermuda and it will work good ofr dallisgrass, foxtail, and crabgrass. I blanket sprayed a yard again today - new customer. No damage to the bermuda grass or browning out. Crabgrass is yellowing. The best thing is to spray it and return in 7-10 days and reapply to contol it. It works. I mix it according to the label. 1 oz to 1000 sqft. and tank spray it at 24 oz to 50 gallons of water- can not remember right off hand, but no damage to bermuda.

Evm- I use Target 6.6 and I have not noticed that. I will have to pull the label in the morning to read it. I pulled it up on line and it is not on there.

kirk1701
08-24-2009, 11:43 PM
Kirk1701 - Use it on bermuda and it will work good ofr dallisgrass, foxtail, and crabgrass. I blanket sprayed a yard again today - new customer. No damage to the bermuda grass or browning out. Crabgrass is yellowing. The best thing is to spray it and return in 7-10 days and reapply to contol it. It works. I mix it according to the label. 1 oz to 1000 sqft. and tank spray it at 24 oz to 50 gallons of water- can not remember right off hand, but no damage to bermuda.

Evm- I use Target 6.6 and I have not noticed that. I will have to pull the label in the morning to read it. I pulled it up on line and it is not on there.

So it won't kill bermuda?
I should have been clearer, I have a fescue lawn and have bermuda coming up and don't want to spent a fortune to get rid of it. I've been told Turflon Ester but I'm holding off till I find out for sure just how bad it is.

Marcos
08-24-2009, 11:53 PM
MSMA

Useless...

ted putnam
08-25-2009, 12:25 AM
Useless...

Not totally...It can be useful tool when used correctly and in moderation. Marcos, I have hundreds of customers. I have used a total of 7 gals of MSMA concentrate this year. I have stopped using it this week because of cooler temps. I started spraying(where necessary June 1st of this year) I dig a lot of Dallisgrass along the way but there are times when that is not a viable option and chemical control becomes necessary. Other than Glyposate, MSMA is the only thing that can offer 90% + control. No amount of fert(organic or sythetic) is going to make the turf thick enough to crowd out patches of Dallisgrass in bermuda. JMO

Rayholio
08-25-2009, 07:04 PM
The MSMA I've used in the past did the same thing on days with a HIGH of 85 degrees.. it was applied correctly except for one minor detail.. The label clearly stated (after going back and re-reading it) that it is NOT to be applied via a hose end sprayer.

I now have a ride on, and should theoretically be able to get by with MSMA.. but I'll never risk it again.. I use Q4 and Drive for summer weed control now.. A LOT more forgiving.

I have basically learned that if the Pre-emergant fails, you're simply screwed anyhow.. that lawn will NEVER look right until next year.. so DON'T SKIMP on the Pre-M.. put it down in two shots, and don't misapply it.. It will save you SO much heart ache.

Think Green
08-25-2009, 07:29 PM
We are not using drive down here yet, until the state takes away the msma in 2010.
Not all states labels are printed for the same weeds. My label states for use on Crabgrass, dallisgrass,goose,sedge and others. MSMA is one of the most used herbicides used in rice, cotton and soybeans, so it is heat activated herbicide. My label also states for a person to cut their lawns at 1" and then apply as a blanket spray for adequate coverage. 1 oz per K is the rate for our bermuda's and .5 oz per k for Zoysia's with surfactant. If you don't get the MSMA to the weed, then it won't work effectively!! Any other herbicide labeled for Crabgrass isn't as cost efficient as MSMA right now.
The southern turfgrasses will turn yellow and even brown in some areas, but it will take 2-3 weeks to fully recover and with the best Bermuda grass you have ever seen. The fate of the herbicide is high, so repeat applications will need to be made to eliminate the weed until fall, then the weed dies out anyway.

shovelracer
08-25-2009, 08:16 PM
I just put down Target 6.6 at 1oz w/ sticker on a customers lawn and it turned the grassy weeds a little yellow, but will need to be retreated in a few days. On a test I double applied and area of my first year lawn at the same rate. Smoked the grassy weeds in 3-4 days with some small turf stress, but it wont die. I'm reseeding the whole thing soon anyways.

Joshuakwhit
08-25-2009, 08:57 PM
I use .5 oz. of MSMA, full rate of quin pro( Drive).23 oz per k and oz. per gallon of sticker. Will kill Nutsedge, broadleaf, and grassy weeds. Respray in 10-14 days.

This year haven't damaged any fescue lawns but discolored bermuda turf including mine(which seemed odd to me).
Resprayed one today where the initial spray was 2 wks. ago. Dallisgrass, crabgrass,johnson grass discolored to dead, Turf fescue and bermuda untouched.

dougiefresh1967
09-11-2009, 11:10 AM
What are your mowing heights before you spray the msma on your grass?

Joshuakwhit
09-11-2009, 02:57 PM
What are your mowing heights before you spray the msma on your grass?

On my lawn everything is cut at the same hieght about 4.0-4.5" bermuda and fescue(high I know). Customers lawns can be from dirt to 3.5" in hieght.

lawn king
09-11-2009, 04:09 PM
We used msma and its predecessor dsma in the 1970's. Hot,hot,hot, very unstable weather sensitive product! I wouldnt use it if you put a gun to my head.