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View Full Version : EPA outlaws MSMA?


ron mexico75
08-26-2009, 09:30 AM
Has this been broadly publicized or is it being quietly phased out? I have used a product made by BONIDE called Weed beater Plus. 2,4-D plus MSMA. I haven't been able to find it anywhere. I was told by the place I buy it at that the supplier isn't allowed to sell it anymore. I called the supplier directly and they said the EPA has banned MSMA and whatever is left to sell can be bought but after that no more MSMA will be used as a partial ingredient in products or as a concentrate.

This stuff worked so damn good on crabgrass you didn't even have to worry about it. Do you all know about this?

My question is this; what would you recommend as a post emergent control? Drive? Q4? What else is going to work as good without repeated follow up?

I posted this link from the EPA. It explains in the first 2 paragraphs and towards the bottom list specific products.

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-PEST/2009/July/Day-08/p16054.htm

RAlmaroad
08-26-2009, 10:34 AM
There are two products that will work on crabgrass: One is Drive for crabgrasses, and the other is Acclaim for "Goosegrass" which looks similiar to crabgrass but grows in a rosette. Drive will not touch "Goosegrass". So, I guess both will have to be used, unless someone knows of something else that will work on both.

ron mexico75
08-26-2009, 10:44 AM
There are two products that will work on crabgrass: One is Drive for crabgrasses, and the other is Acclaim for "Goosegrass" which looks similiar to crabgrass but grows in a rosette. Drive will not touch "Goosegrass". So, I guess both will have to be used, unless someone knows of something else that will work on both.

Thanks for posting man. Yeah that's the problem right there. Having to buy and mix more then one chemical to treat different grassy weeds. The MSMA knocked almost all of them out. I know the downside of MSMA was the harshness of the product on the desirable turf, especially in warmer temps or when blanket spraying.

I have heard of but don't know much about that new Drive XLR8. Like I said above, that product called Q4 sounds good. But, I was wondering if anyone on here has experience with it and what is your opinion? I say it sounds good because it controls broadleaf and grassy weeds. The label states it has 4 active ingredients.

RAlmaroad
08-26-2009, 11:45 AM
Drive is quinclorac which is in Q4. Some of the other crabgrass likes need that Fenoxaprop which is the Acclaim. There are generics of these but nothing like the old MSMA. Our best bet is to apply our pre-em on the cool season grasses 85-90 days apart to keep a healthy dose on the seeds. Knowing what is happening with the interactions of seeds and the pre-emergent's activity helps control the crab. We have a product especially for crabgrass on the St. Augustine warm season grass so there's a blessing.

ron mexico75
08-26-2009, 12:04 PM
Drive is quinclorac which is in Q4. Some of the other crabgrass likes need that Fenoxaprop which is the Acclaim. There are generics of these but nothing like the old MSMA. Our best bet is to apply our pre-em on the cool season grasses 85-90 days apart to keep a healthy dose on the seeds. Knowing what is happening with the interactions of seeds and the pre-emergent's activity helps control the crab. We have a product especially for crabgrass on the St. Augustine warm season grass so there's a blessing.


Yeah PRE Ermerg. is key I agree. I have used Barricade for 3 years now and I SWEAR by it. Truly Truly amazing stuff. The issue is people who have not used a pre emerg. and want me to renovate their lawns. Always people asking (the DIY'S) why does my yard look like crap? They want the crabgrass gone now. All these yards are INFESTED because they never put down pre emerg or did it too late. They don't want to have me do their yards full time but they want to call when it's emergency time you know? Frustrating!!

grassman177
08-26-2009, 01:24 PM
i have stocked up on msma and trimec plus for the future as nothing else i know will get johnson grass and goosegrass(acclaim is too pricey) quinclorac wont touch either, it is too bad as msma really smokes crabgrass with little to no re greening. quinclorac is about 50/50 with regreen and total kill, depends on the age of the crabgrass mostly.

ron mexico75
08-26-2009, 01:32 PM
i have stocked up on msma and trimec plus for the future as nothing else i know will get johnson grass and goosegrass(acclaim is too pricey) quinclorac wont touch either, it is too bad as msma really smokes crabgrass with little to no re greening. quinclorac is about 50/50 with regreen and total kill, depends on the age of the crabgrass mostly.

I hear you on that. Should be interesting to see if a chemical is developed as a replacement for MSMA. I think I will follow your lead and stock up. A distributor by me has 1 gallon jugs of MSMA for $31 and once they're gone that's it.

bx24
08-26-2009, 03:03 PM
Interesting...Problem is every year this issue comes up...Still here.

sciturfman
08-26-2009, 03:29 PM
Hey RALmaroad, what is there that can be used safely for crabgrass in St. Augustine? I have been missing the boat if there is such a chemical!

kirk1701
08-26-2009, 05:45 PM
I hear you on that. Should be interesting to see if a chemical is developed as a replacement for MSMA. I think I will follow your lead and stock up. A distributor by me has 1 gallon jugs of MSMA for $31 and once they're gone that's it.

Care to share your supplier? Will he ship?

already sold out in my area :confused:

grassman177
08-26-2009, 07:10 PM
helena chemicals here, they are all over. shipping may make this too much to spend but i have no idea on what it takes to trasport hazardous materials in such a large concentrate

ksJoe
08-26-2009, 10:49 PM
http://desc.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=MSMA+crabgrass&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=1&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=MSMA&_osacat=0&_rdc=1

kirk1701
08-27-2009, 10:29 AM
http://desc.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=MSMA+crabgrass&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=1&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=MSMA&_osacat=0&_rdc=1

I tried e-bay; which one in your search were you refering too I see trimec and some others that have MSMA in it but nothing like Bonnie MSMA or other labels.

bx24
08-27-2009, 03:59 PM
Bonnie is still sold by train loads...

kirk1701
08-27-2009, 04:18 PM
Bonnie is still sold by train loads...

Not here, MSMA Crabgrass killer made by Bonnie; could not even find it online.

Last time I called the local southern states they wanted to sell MSMA to me to treat bermuda grass (coming up in my fescue) however they were out of that at the time.

kirk1701
08-28-2009, 01:22 PM
Bonnie is still sold by train loads...

Just took a ride over to SStates, they were sold out and OH get this; didn't know if they discontinued the item, corp discontinued it or if Bondie just stopped making it :dizzy:

I really started to play dumb and not even tell them why they didn't have it but guess I felt bad for the poor chaps.

Anyways, I just ordered what looks to be an equivalent off E-Bay can anyone tell me if or in fact this is MSMA as it claims?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300328584497

bx24
08-28-2009, 07:54 PM
Just took a ride over to SStates, they were sold out and OH get this; didn't know if they discontinued the item, corp discontinued it or if Bondie just stopped making it :dizzy:

I really started to play dumb and not even tell them why they didn't have it but guess I felt bad for the poor chaps.



Funny a family member works there (Northeast Dev for Corp) in sales and there warehouse is over 4 acres! I walk in there and like WTF... Sad part is we got cases last year, for free, and I gave away.

Some items need to be bought by pallet and I can get shipped for free.

SS is really Agaway and Corp Agway went Chap 11 years ago.

But I can look in their puter and see what they can get..I can get anything they can order in 3 days..And by rail car too.

Think Green
08-28-2009, 08:38 PM
Grassman,
I purchased from Helena Chem. this year on the Target 6 plus MSMA. They only had 5 gallons left as of July! The thing for Arkansas is you can use MSMA while supplies last throughout 2009, and for 2010, only select markets can use the MSMA under study profiles. If I remember the article and newsletter from my State licensing bureau, MSMA will be restricted and used by golf course and applicator's like us until 2012. We will be under scrutiny and observation while the EPA investigates their proceedings.
The bottom line is this guys..............A product that contains elemental Arsonic for around 13.00 a gallon with an application rate of 2-3 quarts per acre, will be dismissed and all awhile Quinqlorac-Drive and Drive HLR8, which is more costly per container will surpass the market. The hard thing to swallow is lower acre doses but the initial cost for purchase. A little will go a longer way. They say these new chemicals are less toxic to the environment.???? I think the tail is wagging the dog!!!!!!!!

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
08-28-2009, 08:58 PM
Grassman,
I purchased from Helena Chem. this year on the Target 6 plus MSMA. They only had 5 gallons left as of July! The thing for Arkansas is you can use MSMA while supplies last throughout 2009, and for 2010, only select markets can use the MSMA under study profiles. If I remember the article and newsletter from my State licensing bureau, MSMA will be restricted and used by golf course and applicator's like us until 2012. We will be under scrutiny and observation while the EPA investigates their proceedings.
The bottom line is this guys..............A product that contains elemental Arsonic for around 13.00 a gallon with an application rate of 2-3 quarts per acre, will be dismissed and all awhile Quinqlorac-Drive and Drive HLR8, which is more costly per container will surpass the market. The hard thing to swallow is lower acre doses but the initial cost for purchase. A little will go a longer way. They say these new chemicals are less toxic to the environment.???? I think the tail is wagging the dog!!!!!!!!

Quinclorac (Drive) is an excellent product & we wont miss MSMA up here in the North, but I know you guys have weeds you really need it for down South..... Like Dallisgrass:cry:

Think Green
08-28-2009, 09:58 PM
I am not knocking the product out...........it is great on those cool season grass's.
Down South, we are dominant agriculture........millions of gallons per year are dumped on the Delta plains. We do need safer, less toxic products for agriculture.
I just want proof that our beloved chemical MSMA is the root of all the evil they are embellishing it to be.

kirk1701
08-28-2009, 10:44 PM
I am not knocking the product out...........it is great on those cool season grass's.
Down South, we are dominant agriculture........millions of gallons per year are dumped on the Delta plains. We do need safer, less toxic products for agriculture.
I just want proof that our beloved chemical MSMA is the root of all the evil they are embellishing it to be.

I do believe there is more to all this then what we will ever know and it all boils down to the P word :rolleyes:

Politics

Sure, make up some excuse to take MSMA off the market and next year some chemical company comes out with a new herb to replace it where, if, MSMA were still on the market well now your talking competition.

Scratch my back I scratch your back, now MSMA is out of the way for the new product to dominate the market.

Kinda reminds me of Microsoft :laugh:

ted putnam
08-28-2009, 11:04 PM
I am not knocking the product out...........it is great on those cool season grass's.
Down South, we are dominant agriculture........millions of gallons per year are dumped on the Delta plains. We do need safer, less toxic products for agriculture.
I just want proof that our beloved chemical MSMA is the root of all the evil they are embellishing it to be.

I think it can be if put in the wrong hands. Marcos made the comment the other night that MSMA is "useless". Maybe it is for him in Ohio, but it isn't for me in Arkansas. I have hundreds of customers and have only used 7 gals this season. I dig clumps up with a soil knife whenever possible every day and only spot spray patches and when there is just to much for digging to be practical. Quinclorac as I understand it is great for crabgrass and foxtail. If that's all I had to deal with I'd be fine. However I have 20 other varieties of grassy weeds that quinclorac won't touch. A 1lb package of drive cost me better than $100 if I remember correctly( I bought it last year and tried it...mixed results). That package will do just over an acre. Sure, the initial cost is high but it doesn't stretch any further tham MSMA and and it's spectrum of control is definitely not as broad. I think they should make MSMA a restricted use pesticide and stop handing it out like candy at the drive through window at the bank. I went by my local co-op yesterday to purchase some MSMA. They were out except for a half dozen 1 gal bottles. They had a pallet(48 cases of 2.5 jugs) arrive during the lunch hour and they called to tell me it was in. I wasn't able to make it by before closing time. They called me again this morning at 9am and said there was 15 cases left and I needed to make it by this morning because they were almost sure it would be gone by noon. 33 cases sold between noon and 5 pm yesterday. That is just unreal for this little co-op...:hammerhead: What's next, "Black Market MSMA"?

greendoctor
08-29-2009, 04:48 AM
As I have mentioned before, the Hawaii Department of Agriculture has taken the position that quinclorac is a ground water pollutant and as such, cannot be allowed as a lawn herbicide here. Either they are way ahead of the curve or just being unreasonable. It would be a bummer to find out that drinking 1ppb of quinclorac in water over a lifetime causes cancer, sterility, or any number of chronic and incurable health problems.

I have already started to phase MSMA out of my protocols. Have not had to burn holes in a client's lawn yet. But many of my customers ask why their weeds do not turn brown a week after I treat as in past years. What is replacing MSMA is triazine, sulfonylurea or "Fop" herbicides. Most of them do not work as fast or on a broad spectrum of weeds. I worry about resistance to the alternative herbicides. I also have concerns about needing to use more triazine herbicides. Sencor and simazine are probably more of a water pollutant than MSMA ever will be.

topsites
08-29-2009, 08:47 AM
Always people asking (the DIY'S) why does my yard look like crap? They want the crabgrass gone now. All these yards are INFESTED because they never put down pre emerg or did it too late. They don't want to have me do their yards full time but they want to call when it's emergency time you know? Frustrating!!

Oh yeah :p

I don't get as frustrated with DIY'ers, those I can usually deal with, does take a bit of time.
But those willing to spend it, they also want it gone yesterday and to a point even more so.
These are the folks who think it can be "fixed" so long enough money is thrown at the problem.

And you might think that's easy but Drive takes more than a few days, at least in my experience
sometimes more than one application, we're talking weeks and a month is not out of the question.

Why that frustrates me is because they'll call around and around until they find SOMEONE willing to take their money,
they blow their entire budget and the problem usually is fixed some kind of way, but sure enough soon it's the same problem.
Then they spent so much on it that they don't got the money left to pay for core aeration and seeding, much less the leaves!
You see...

The whole thing is, in most cases what I find needs doing is to address the underlying cause of the crabgrass.
Because killing it off only leaves a bare spot, which then only results in even more crabgrass.

My latest explorations have revealed that one should actually use post ems as a last resort only.

greendoctor
08-29-2009, 06:54 PM
Whenever I am faced with a weedy lawn. I do ask what is causing this. With the intent of reducing whatever factors that are. Do not confuse this with an anti pesticide and anti fertilizer agenda. I love lawns where all I am doing is applying fertilizer on a regular basis. Loading up a lawn with Pre-M or Dimension and keeping it that way is not a good idea in my area and with the type of grass I am maintaining. Postemergent herbicides have their limits as well. No customer of mine wants to see areas of brown, be it from weeds or damaged grass. Their last service provider is no longer there because the answer to weed control was constantly spot spraying with MSMA, Trimec, Sedgehammer or :eek: RoundUp

ron mexico75
09-01-2009, 02:36 PM
Well, this turned into a thread with some good discussion. I haven't been on for several days. I will definitely urge people to use or have me use pre emergents. That is really going to be the key with such inferior crab grass post emergents on the market compared to MSMA.

ksJoe
09-01-2009, 05:42 PM
Here is a notice from August 9 on the EPA's website

http://www.epa.gov/EPA-PEST/2006/August/Day-09/p12905.htm


SUMMARY: This notice announces the availability of EPA's Reregistration
Eligibility Decision (RED) for the organic arsenical herbicides MSMA,
DSMA, CAMA, and cacodylic acid, and opens a public comment period on
this document. The Agency has determined that all products containing
MSMA, DSMA, CAMA, and cacodylic acid are not eligible for
reregistration. The Agency's risk assessments and other related
documents also are available in the organic arsenical herbicides
docket. MSMA, DSMA, CAMA, and cacodylic acid are collectively referred
to as the ``organic arsenical herbicides.'' The organic arsenic
herbicides are used primarily on cotton and turf, including golf
courses, home lawns, recreational areas such as school yards and
athletic fields, and rights-of-way. Overall, use in the United States
appears to be declining. While EPA has identified some risk associated
with the direct use of these herbicides, the Agency's primary concern
is the potential for applied organic arsenical products to transform to
a more toxic inorganic form of arsenic in soil with subsequent
transport to drinking water. EPA has reviewed the organic arsenical
herbicides through the public participation process that the Agency
uses to involve the public in developing pesticide reregistration and
tolerance reassessment decisions. Through these programs, EPA is
ensuring that all pesticides meet current health and safety standards.


There is also a FAQ on there.

BTW, I thought us homeowners were supposed to be freeloaders around here, and you pros were supposed to dig up all the info :drinkup:

grassman177
09-01-2009, 09:07 PM
again, this is why i am stocking up with target and trimec plus. used some the other day and just smoked the weeds and grassy weeds. one workd for u, AWESOME

LIVETOLEARN
09-01-2009, 10:35 PM
Guys, I have been using Q4 for the last two seasons and I have to tell you it does a great job on crabgrass. Other than the price I have no complaints!

ron mexico75
09-02-2009, 09:03 AM
Guys, I have been using Q4 for the last two seasons and I have to tell you it does a great job on crabgrass. Other than the price I have no complaints!

Well, besides the inferior results in comparison to MSMA, you have lodged one of the 2 major complaints.....PRICE! $30 per gallon for MSMA. What did you pay for the Q4? $100 dollars or more right?

What other complaints would there be besides price and kill result?

Can you tell us how it compares directly to MSMA? I am wanting to know how long until the crabgrass showed stress and then how long until total kill? Did you have to apply more then once?

ALC-GregH
09-03-2009, 09:19 AM
Hey Whitey, glad to see your doing OK.

I'm getting ready to scalp my back lawn, aerate and heavily over seed with a fescue/KB mix. My problem is the crabgrass has taken over. I have a bottle of MSMA but I'm thinking I need to wait until spring to apply it after the seed I put down has germinated. What process should I take to help assure I get maximum seed germination and get rid of the crabgrass? I also have a ton of nimblewill and other grassy weeds. I've been using Ortho Weed-be-gone max and it has taken care of the broad leaf weeds and clover. I want the lawn to be weed and grassy weed free next spring into the summer. I've been so busy to the point I'm not sure what process I need to follow.

kirk1701
09-03-2009, 01:44 PM
In relation to this thread, I read an article yesterday in my local paper that reminded me of this topic so I had to look it up online and post it.

MSMA? What about cigarette butts on the environment????

Shows that the metals and organic chemicals found in used cigarettes can leak out, contaminating water and killing microorganisms.

The water in the study exceeded Environmental Protection Agency-approved levels of lead in drinking water, said Daniel Burriss, a UTC senior helping conduct the research.

So lets take Cigarettes off the market :drinkup:

Makes you wonder who would win out, EPA or Big tobacco?

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009/aug/23/cigarette-pollution-problem

Cigarette pollution problem
Some UTC researchers are putting cigarettes under the microscope in a study that could make smokers think twice about tossing their butts.

The University of Tennessee at Chattanooga study, intended to uncover the effects of discarded cigarette butts on the environment, shows that the metals and organic chemicals found in used cigarettes can leak out, contaminating water and killing microorganisms.

"We certainly have no trouble getting samples," said Gretchen Potts, an associate professor of chemistry at UTC who started the research. "It's pretty sad."

More than 4.5 trillion cigarette butts are tossed in the United States every year, Dr. Potts said. One cigarette won't contaminate the environment, but over time, trillions of discarded cigarettes could cause problems for microorganisms, she said.

According to tobacco companies, the remnants of used cigarettes, leftover tobacco and the filter are biodegradable. However, they can last up to 18 months in the environment, giving plenty of time for chemicals to leak out, Dr. Potts said.

"No one has ever looked at what comes out of littered cigarettes," she said.

Student researchers have been collecting discarded cigarette butts from around Chattanooga and the UTC campus and letting them sit in bottles of water to see what elements leak out.

In the study, lead and cadmium -- toxic chemicals found in batteries -- leaked into the water. The water in the study exceeded Environmental Protection Agency-approved levels of lead in drinking water, said Daniel Burriss, a UTC senior helping conduct the research.

Mr. Burriss said he now is researching the effects of organic chemicals such as nicotine on the environment.

"I am surprised by what I am learning, but I haven't found anything too bad," said Mr. Burriss, a smoker.

Cigarette butt litter is illegal in Tennessee and punishable by a $50 fine, according to the Tennessee Department of Transportation.

Still, only half of smokers properly dispose of their cigarette butts by extinguishing them in an ash tray or throwing the butts in a trash can, according to the transportation department. Twenty percent of smokers said they frequently toss butts out of their car windows, TDOT found.

"People think about cigarette butts as being so tiny," Dr. Potts said. "They don't really think about it."

phasthound
09-03-2009, 04:54 PM
The second best thing I ever did was to quit smoking. Thumbs Up

ksJoe
09-07-2009, 05:03 PM
If any of you are still looking for MSMA, try Orscheln's. I just got a gallon there (36.99). They probably had over hundred gallons.

ICT Bill
09-07-2009, 09:57 PM
If any of you are still looking for MSMA, try Orscheln's. I just got a gallon there (36.99). They probably had over hundred gallons.

Are you guys out of your mind
The reason that they have been taken off of the market is that they are so toxic you should not get near them.

These are endrocrine disrupters, are you aware of what that means?

These have been proven to affect hormone production in people. You go out into the field and spray, come home and put your feet up on the coffee table, your son, who sticks his thumb in his mouth comes by, uses the coffee table to balance himself

Hormone disrupter, right in his mouth


Are you guys seriously defending these toxins

ted putnam
09-08-2009, 01:29 AM
Are you guys out of your mind
The reason that they have been taken off of the market is that they are so toxic you should not get near them.

These are endrocrine disrupters, are you aware of what that means?

These have been proven to affect hormone production in people. You go out into the field and spray, come home and put your feet up on the coffee table, your son, who sticks his thumb in his mouth comes by, uses the coffee table to balance himself

Hormone disrupter, right in his mouth


Are you guys seriously defending these toxins

Bill, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I'm defending MSMA to the bitter end. However, it is a useful tool in my tool box. I don't know what some of these guys have to deal with weed-wise but MSMA is the only real practical solution for weeds(particularly Dallisgrass) in some situations for me. I do use it sparingly. A soil knife is another tool in my tool box and it's used quite frequently for weed control(exclusively in some cases). If they are going to take MSMA away, I'd sure like to see them have something as effective to replace it. If you have something, I'm all ears??
As far as exposing my children...I wear spray boots and chaps that are never worn in my house. I have a deep sink in my garage that I wash all the way to my elbows before I come in. Honestly, I worry more about the chicken nuggets from Micky D's my 5 yr old daughter likes more than the hug she gives me when I come in the house. Have you had some chicken lately? Have you thought about what Tyson, Pilgrims Pride or whoever is pumping them up with to get them from a chick to the dinner table in 8 wks? That's more of a concern to me than exposing my child to MSMA.

kirk1701
09-08-2009, 07:35 AM
Bill, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I'm defending MSMA to the bitter end. However, it is a useful tool in my tool box. I don't know what some of these guys have to deal with weed-wise but MSMA is the only real practical solution for weeds(particularly Dallisgrass) in some situations for me. I do use it sparingly. A soil knife is another tool in my tool box and it's used quite frequently for weed control(exclusively in some cases). If they are going to take MSMA away, I'd sure like to see them have something as effective to replace it. If you have something, I'm all ears??
As far as exposing my children...I wear spray boots and chaps that are never worn in my house. I have a deep sink in my garage that I wash all the way to my elbows before I come in. Honestly, I worry more about the chicken nuggets from Micky D's my 5 yr old daughter likes more than the hug she gives me when I come in the house. Have you had some chicken lately? Have you thought about what Tyson, Pilgrims Pride or whoever is pumping them up with to get them from a chick to the dinner table in 8 wks? That's more of a concern to me than exposing my child to MSMA.

We'll said Ted, I was thinking along the same lines as you, who wears their work boots in the house and not to mention putting them on the coffee table :laugh:
I walked in the house and did that my head would think it was in the world series :laugh:

As far as exposing children, I again point to my thread above and say to myself "second hand smoke" :rolleyes:

I got my hands on 1/2 gallon of MSMA last week, which should last me somewhere in the area of OH, 5 years. By then I hope the hell they come up with a substitute.

ron mexico75
09-08-2009, 08:38 AM
Are you guys out of your mind
The reason that they have been taken off of the market is that they are so toxic you should not get near them.

These are endrocrine disrupters, are you aware of what that means?

These have been proven to affect hormone production in people. You go out into the field and spray, come home and put your feet up on the coffee table, your son, who sticks his thumb in his mouth comes by, uses the coffee table to balance himself

Hormone disrupter, right in his mouth


Are you guys seriously defending these toxins

Where did you find your information that factually states its so dangerous you're not supposed to get near it? I am not coming across as; you're wrong and you just made that up. I am genuinely asking where you found true documented proof of that. That's the whole reason I started the thread was to ask why MSMA was being taken off the market.

This is what was on the EPA's site as another person posted this before. This appears to be the "reason" although it still seems speculative with the wording used.

While EPA has identified some risk associated
with the direct use of these herbicides, the Agency's primary concern
is the potential for applied organic arsenical products to transform to
a more toxic inorganic form of arsenic in soil with subsequent
transport to drinking water.

Again, I'm not asking where you got your information as a condescending question, I am really asking you in all seriousness because I want to know and read more about it. The only info. I have seen as to why its off of the EPA site.

Also, I thought it was funny after I read your post saying how dangerous it was, that you were into organics and even have your own site. It was almost like those people who say all guns should be illegal and then you find out they are with some anti gun organization. I'm not knocking you for being into organics, I juts thought it was ironic that you stated how dangerous it was and then in your signature I saw you were affiliated with organics.

AmGreen
09-08-2009, 11:14 AM
Hey Whitey, glad to see your doing OK.

I'm getting ready to scalp my back lawn, aerate and heavily over seed with a fescue/KB mix. My problem is the crabgrass has taken over. I have a bottle of MSMA but I'm thinking I need to wait until spring to apply it after the seed I put down has germinated. What process should I take to help assure I get maximum seed germination and get rid of the crabgrass? I also have a ton of nimblewill and other grassy weeds. I've been using Ortho Weed-be-gone max and it has taken care of the broad leaf weeds and clover. I want the lawn to be weed and grassy weed free next spring into the summer. I've been so busy to the point I'm not sure what process I need to follow.

If it's that bad, spray it with gly wait three days and over seed.

grassman177
09-09-2009, 06:48 PM
i use q4 and love it, will try some quincept next year. but msma has real value here with dallisgrass and johnson grass. other chems dont hurt those, msma nukes them. i use it sparingly anyways, not that many lawns need that stuff anyways. it will me missed badly unless they get something that is turely as effective on such a wide range as well. going to buy even more to stock up on after re reading this post, aarrrggghh