$300 Top Dressing Cost??

[ecoguy]

Hey guys, gals. I'm just doing some number crunching today specifically with my cost for top dressing with a super soil/compost. The average size lawn is 10000 sq feet which to be honest sounds like a huge lot. I would almost want to lop off a third of that. Anyways, the local bulk soil place sells a high quality super soil for $30 a yard (that's cheap next to the $80 a yard Fish Compost). If I top dressed at half an inch I could cover 650 square feet with a yard of super soil. Multiply that by 10 and I'm looking at $300 per lawn, just in cost, to top dress? That sounds like a hell of a lot of money and that's just cost of goods.

I know many of you top dress so how much does it cost you, how much do you use and how much do you charge? I feel like I'm missing something here.

[phasthound]

Nobody said it was cheap. :(
You have to sell on value. :D

[DUSTYCEDAR]

sell with a smile :)

[ICT Bill]

here is a post from another group I thought was good on the subject, from my buddy Tim

My little dump carries 4 yards packed high with medium moisture compost. This weighs around 2.5 tons or 0.625 tons per yard. That is 1250 pounds per yard and estimates on the Internet put the weight of compost ranging from 1000 pounds to 1600 pounds per yard so I'm within the range but admittedly compost has different weights dependent on make up and moisture content.

There are (approx.) 43,560 square feet per acre or 6,272,640 square inches.

A yard of material = 46,656 cubic inches

To calculate how many yards (approximate) of compost is required to cover one acre 1 inch thick with compost;
divide 6,272,640 by 46,656 = 134.4 yards (approximate)

The results using the 1000 pounds per yard are contained in [ ] below

Using the weight in my dump trailer followed by the low weight from the Internet;

134.4 X 0.625 tons = 84 tons (approximate) [using 1000 lb./yard = 67.2 tons] of compost to cover one acre 1 inch thick with compost.

1/2 inch thick would take 42 tons (approximate) [33.6 tons]
1/4 inch thick would take 21 tons (approximate) [16.8 tons]
1/8 inch thick would take 10.5 tons (approximate) [8.4 tons]
1/16 inch thick would take 5.25 tons (approximate) [4.2 tons]
1/32 inch thick would take 2.625 tons (approximate) [2.1 tons]
1/64 inch thick would take 1.3125 tons (approximate) [1.05 tons]

Is 1/64th of an inch thick application of compost enough to have the desired effect? It is possible you may wish to adjust that figure unless I am wrong or unless this is what you intended.

I think my math is correct but anyone certainly correct me if I'm wrong.

Salutations,
Tim

[JDUtah]

1/2" is wayyyy too much IMO.

I "topdress" 8 times a year. That 10k lawn would use 1/2 a yard per application. Multiply .5 yards times 8 and I would only use 4 yards of post for the year. This costs me about $70 materials. And I make bank on it! Does it work? Indeed. Very nice dark green.

Some lawns do get a custom blend mineral boost (only containing up tp three mineral nutrients, not P, K, or Fe) maybe 3-4 times a year... but I'm applying that at 1/4 the normal application rate when i use it, usually even less than that.

Do you need 1/2"? I say nope, not at all... and wonder if you apply that much every year, are you contributing to leaching and groundwater contamination?

IMO a core principle of organic landscape maintenance is to do just enough to make it look good/great. And NOT do any more than that. Also my opinion... 1/2' is doing more than you need. At least double what you really need. Maybe even 4 orders of magnitude more than what you need.

[ecoguy]

half a yard??? on how many square feet? $70? man that's cheap. tell me howJD. Btw- do you use a compost spreader? I've looked online and there's some decent ones for under a K, it would definitely make life easier. Also, what's the easiest way to measure the soil you apply? Do you just dump, rake and eyeball it?

[JDUtah]

half a yard??? on how many square feet? $70? man that's cheap. tell me howJD. Btw- do you use a compost spreader? I've looked online and there's some decent ones for under a K, it would definitely make life easier. Also, what's the easiest way to measure the soil you apply? Do you just dump, rake and eyeball it?

10 gallons post per k. There are 201 gallons in a cubic yard. So I use 4 yards post per that 10k yard per year (not 30 yards like you are planning).

I currently use a modified Spyker 288.

Measure 'the soil' by recording how much volume or weight you use over a given area. Then do some math and botta bing, you have your application rate and thickness.

The rest you have to figure out... unless you wanna pay me a 100,000 franchise fee. :drinkup:

[ecoguy]

haha, man I can't even hardly afford my mowers. thanks for the help.

[JDUtah]

yw.

You can pick up the spyker for about 700.

Get yourself out of any boxes you may be in. Synthetic or organic.

Also, get out of the 'application' mindset (it can be holding you back) and get into the 'service' mindset. With a program built on the right mindset you can see net returns of over 200%.

With over 200% return, you can afford the Spyker or a franchise (ps i was partly kidding about that... I have a LOT more work to do untill I can get into expanding nationwide). It's a lot of work to figure out (and then build the market for it), but it is worth it. Anyways I gotta jet. Good luck.

ps... You really can't compare my program to the one application you are talking about in the original post. Apples to oranges. But man apples taste good. lol

[pt03]

I'm trying to figure this out myself as well.:confused:

The top dressers I built cover about 245 sq ft using 10 U.S. gallons. So if we use 250 foot coverage, it would take 40 U.S. gallons to cover 1000 sq ft. or about one fifth of a cubic yard. Seems light to me but it is what it is.

I sell my compost for $1.50 per 5 gallon pail so to do a 2000 sq foot lawn area, a homeowner would be looking at $24 bucks for the compost and we're thinking of a rental fee of $2.50 for each hour, or portion of, for the dresser. Call it two hours. Add in a backyard of another 2000 sq ft and we're looking at just under 60 bucks. If the homeowner hires someone, (and people here won't, they're too cheap:)) throw in all the other costs as well.

One lawn I did as an experiment did in fact use 16 pails on the front lawn. He had a driveway and a couple of flower beds and is typical of a town lot. So it seems the numbers look okay but is it enough compost or should a second crossways application be done?:confused:

And my compost is just compost.

Lloyd

[ICT Bill]

Like he said "get out of the box"

He is spoon feeding, that is all turf needs

You have been told, maybe even educated that fescue needs 3 pounds of N per year, Bermuda needs 4 pounds of N per year, BullSh*t
We are using duck weed and mushroom mycillium as an N source for our Rhizo-food

[Grohorganic]

Like he said "get out of the box"

He is spoon feeding, that is all turf needs

You have been told, maybe even educated that fescue needs 3 pounds of N per year, Bermuda needs 4 pounds of N per year, BullSh*t
We are using duck weed and mushroom mycillium as an N source for our Rhizo-food
darn rite....... its a whole new game.....

[Kiril]

1/2" is wayyyy too much IMO.

I "topdress" 8 times a year. That 10k lawn would use 1/2 a yard per application. Multiply .5 yards times 8 and I would only use 4 yards of post for the year. This costs me about $70 materials. And I make bank on it! Does it work? Indeed. Very nice dark green.

Some lawns do get a custom blend mineral boost (only containing up tp three mineral nutrients, not P, K, or Fe) maybe 3-4 times a year... but I'm applying that at 1/4 the normal application rate when i use it, usually even less than that.

Do you need 1/2"? I say nope, not at all... and wonder if you apply that much every year, are you contributing to leaching and groundwater contamination?

IMO a core principle of organic landscape maintenance is to do just enough to make it look good/great. And NOT do any more than that. Also my opinion... 1/2' is doing more than you need. At least double what you really need. Maybe even 4 orders of magnitude more than what you need.

I have to disagree here JD. The biggest drawback of compost is the labor involved in application. If you can reduce your application to once a year, it takes most of the pain out of it.

Can you apply 1/2" without damage? Depends on the compost obviously, but if finished properly I would say go for it as long as you don't smother the lawn.

IMO, the core principle of organic landscape maintenance is building a sustainable system. The less you have to do to get there is going to be the most sustainable route, which in my eyes is not 8 almost invisible applications of OM every year.

[JDUtah]

I have to disagree here JD. The biggest drawback of compost is the labor involved in application. If you can reduce your application to once a year, it takes most of the pain out of it.

Can you apply 1/2" without damage? Depends on the compost obviously, but if finished properly I would say go for it as long as you don't smother the lawn.

IMO, the core principle of organic landscape maintenance is building a sustainable system. The less you have to do to get there is going to be the most sustainable route, which in my eyes is not 8 almost invisible applications of OM every year.

Each has its benefits. I chose my rout for several reasons. :)

[Prolawnservice]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$payuppayup$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

People want to see you more often then once a year applying something(anything), its how they have been trained by the chemical guys. The more they see you even if your only applying a dusting of compost or brown water(hopefully not) the more they expect to pay.

[ICT Bill]

Consistant billing is important to the bottom line

It is also important to be on site every 4 to 6 weeks to see what is going on

Pythium can take an entire lawn in a week, same with take all patch
If you are not on site seeing what is going on in the area you service, the chances of being hired next year are not good

I will have some video tomorrow of the 16th fairway at a very nice golf couse. Our NPP product against a VERY expensive fungicide. I already know the answer because the super called and yelled

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot (WTF)!...... is in this stuff
The Ripken fields called and said the same thing, everybody does

On the little league world series fields again this year, very cool

[Kiril]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$payuppayup$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

People want to see you more often then once a year applying something(anything), its how they have been trained by the chemical guys. The more they see you even if your only applying a dusting of compost or brown water(hopefully not) the more they expect to pay.

I don't agree with this at all. If the landscape is in good health, there is no need to just "show up" and apply anything to justify a billing. That is the problem with the spray and pray mentality, and is starting to appear to be the mentality of the "organic" side too. :nono:

I do however agree that monitoring is necessary to assure everything is in good order, but does not necessarily need to include an "application".

[ICT Bill]

I don't agree with this at all. If the landscape is in good health, there is no need to just "show up" and apply anything to justify a billing. That is the problem with the spray and pray mentality, and is starting to appear to be the mentality of the "organic" side too. :nono:

I do however agree that monitoring is necessary to assure everything is in good order, but does not necessarily need to include an "application".

Splitting hairs I do believe, how do you monitor without going to the site
Most lawn and landscape companies are not charitable non profits. Billing and making a profit is the only way to stay in business, it is also the only way to keep customers satisfied in the long run, if you can't stay in business your customers will not like it a bit
.
I do not believe it is against the "organic" doctrin to stay in business and make a profit. If you know another way please enlighten me

It seems the electric, phone, insurance and payroll come up several times a month, how do I tell them. UUUMM excuse me but I am in the "organic" business and have sustainable sites so I don't have to pay these bills :confused:

Some landscape companies out there have hundreds of employees, I am not sure how they keep them employed without billing

[starry night]

If I remember correctly, Kiril does a lot of consultation work so I'm sure he wasn't suggesting "monitoring" for free. He merely meant that we shouldn't go through the motions of doing an application. Right, Kiril?

[Kiril]

I do not believe it is against the "organic" doctrin to stay in business and make a profit. If you know another way please enlighten me

Yes, provide what the landscape needs, no more, no less. If you can do this with a single application of compost, then monitor at an appropriate interval, this is going to give the best value to the client and is the most sustainable path, both environmentally and economically (for the client that is).

It seems the electric, phone, insurance and payroll come up several times a month, how do I tell them. UUUMM excuse me but I am in the "organic" business and have sustainable sites so I don't have to pay these bills

Everyone does ... what is your point? I'm not going to gouge clients or bill them for services they don't need just to "pay my bills". If this is the way you run your business then shame on you!

It really pisses me off when I see these maint. companies water and fertilize the living hell out of a landscape just so they can justify a weekly stop. They could care less about the health of the landscape, or for providing the best value to the client ... all they care about is how much money they can get with as little effort as possible.

I know you are on the "application" side of the biz, and the more you can get people to apply your product the more money you make. While the product may be seen as "sustainable", the suggest application frequency is not. No offense Bill, but you speak of sustainability with only one foot forward.

[Kiril]

If I remember correctly, Kiril does a lot of consultation work so I'm sure he wasn't suggesting "monitoring" for free. He merely meant that we shouldn't go through the motions of doing an application. Right, Kiril?

That would be correct.

[pt03]

Interesting dialogue.

A couple of guys at work have lawn care contracts and I often hear them talking about getting "X" number of visits per season and how much they pay. What I don't hear is what, if anything, is being done on each of those visits! I don't think they honestly know. For them it's all about the total cost of getting 6 visits versus 8 visits rather than what is being done or even needed on each of those visits.

As an aside, one of the most difficult things I have to do with selling compost is telling the gardeners that they probably do not need 3 inches of finished compost on their garden every year! It's a mindset. Some believe me, but others insist on buying more than they require. C'est la vie.

With turf, I'm still in the learning stage.:confused: But I am beginning to think that one or two thin applications of a decent compost per year is all that is necessary for an average person with an average lawn in my part of the world:canadaflag:. Of course a lawn fanatic will likely never be happy with his/her lawn but that's a whole different ball of wax!:)

Lloyd

[JDUtah]

I have to disagree here JD. The biggest drawback of compost is the labor involved in application. If you can reduce your application to once a year, it takes most of the pain out of it.
IMO, the core principle of organic landscape maintenance is building a sustainable system. The less you have to do to get there is going to be the most sustainable route, which in my eyes is not 8 almost invisible applications of OM every year.

Hmmmm, ok I will bite, a little piece. But I refuse to get into a debate about it (I am confident it will lead that way). My time is too valuable to waste by trying to prove whose morals and logic are more correct.

I have a problem with the following quote the most.. "IMO, the core principle of organic landscape maintenance is building a sustainable system. The less you have to do to get there is going to be the most sustainable route, which in my eyes is not 8 almost invisible applications of OM every year."

You infer that this supposed 'sustainable system' will need minimal input. BUT shall we compare my input to yours?

In this post (http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=3027235&postcount=58) you admit that the one lawn you actually maintain has had a 1/4" topdressing for the last 10 to 13 years. That is what, about 650 lbs of compost (dry) per K per year? On top of that you admit that occasionally that lawn has had fertilizer boosts (admitting meals and inferring mineral inputs as well).

Now let's examine my program. I apply compost annually, just like that lawn, but the difference is that I apply it over the course of 8 applications instead of 1. Oh and another major difference is that I am applying HALF of the compost per K than is used on that lawn annually (by dry weight). Did you catch that, I am using half of what you are using.

So back to your original claim that "the core principle of organic landscape maintenance is building a sustainable system. The less you have to do to get there is going to be the most sustainable route"

In my view, mine is the most sustainable rout. Maybe not the moist lazy/convenient rout, but I am using less input than you are.

Second, pest control. May I ask you, do you go to the dentist only when you have a cavity? Do you maintain your car only when it is broken down (check and change the oil, check and fill tire pressure, fill gas tank when it has gone dry, etc)? No. So why should you go to a property only when it is having a problem? If you have a property with a problem… you may have been able to avoid the problem had you had it on a regular maintenance (review) schedule.

It is silly IMHO to preach against a scheduled visit to any property. That's like not changing your cars oil. Instead, visit the property regularly and do what it needs during that visit. Does this mean do the same thing on every property in a given day? No!

In one day I can apply just compost, apply compost and mineral fert, apply compost and spot spray weeds, apply compost and NPP, apply compost spray weeds and tell the customer to stop watering every day, apply compost and instruct the customer how/where to sharpen their mower blades, apply compost and aerate compacted areas, etc. All in one day, on different lawns, with different needs… all on a regular maintenance schedule. Many of the things I address early on stop the problems from reaching a point where real help/consulting is needed.

In short, my program is not built around ‘applications’ so next time please don’t assume it is. It is built around service. Every time I go to a property they pay me a service fee. My expertise while I am on that scheduled service visit is what determines what is done to that lawn during that service visit. I rely on education, experience, and local conditions/patterns to determine what needs to be done every time.

Like I said in my original post, my program is not in ‘the box’. I am not an application business and held to doing things one way. I am a service business and am free to do what needs to be done, to provide my customer a superior service, while doing it in a way that respects Mother Nature.

Anyways, respond at will, but I have wasted enough time. Peace out brother. But remember, I am not a business doing "8 almost invisible applications of OM every year." I am a service business visiting the property 8 times a year that decided to apply half the compost that you do... spread out over the course of those 8 visits. Got it?

Each has it's benefits. I chose my rout for many reasons.

[ICT Bill]

Interesting dialogue.

A couple of guys at work have lawn care contracts and I often hear them talking about getting "X" number of visits per season and how much they pay. What I don't hear is what, if anything, is being done on each of those visits! I don't think they honestly know. For them it's all about the total cost of getting 6 visits versus 8 visits rather than what is being done or even needed on each of those visits.

As an aside, one of the most difficult things I have to do with selling compost is telling the gardeners that they probably do not need 3 inches of finished compost on their garden every year! It's a mindset. Some believe me, but others insist on buying more than they require. C'est la vie.

With turf, I'm still in the learning stage.:confused: But I am beginning to think that one or two thin applications of a decent compost per year is all that is necessary for an average person with an average lawn in my part of the world:canadaflag:. Of course a lawn fanatic will likely never be happy with his/her lawn but that's a whole different ball of wax!:)

Lloyd

In your neck of the woods some of this does not apply because they have banned many of the pesticides used down here

The typical non organic would go something like this, they run in 4 to 6 week intervals
Application 1: Fertilizer/1/2 application pre-emergent
2: 1/2 application pre-M
3: Fertilizer
4: fungicide or post emergent (as the soils get above 70)
5: mineral supplement (too hot for Nitrogen)
6: fertilizer with overseeding, end of season

Of course Florida has an almost 12 month season while Minnesota may have 4 months so applications change by climate

[Kiril]

In this post (http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=3027235&postcount=58) you admit that the one lawn you actually maintain has had a 1/4" topdressing for the last 10 to 13 years. That is what, about 500 lbs of compost (dry) per K per year? On top of that you admit that occasionally that lawn has had fertilizer boosts (admitting meals and inferring mineral inputs as well).

Only lawn I maintain, not manage. There are many properties I manage, but I don't maintain them. Furthermore, the 1/4" or so is a seed top dress, so you are getting two benefits for the price of one. Is your 1/64 of an inch application going to suffice as a seed covering? BTW, that is what you are claiming ... 8 applications at 1/64 of an inch.

Also, only once has a meal been applied (last year), and it was going to be thrown away if I didn't use it. Synthetics have been used in the past, mostly as a bridge and to get rid of ferts that had already been purchased. In fact, there is still several bags of ferts that have not been used and have been sitting untouched for many years ... and I will use them on the landscape when a need arises to avoid throwing it in the trash.

As far as how much compost by weight, don't know. I don't measure compost by weight given it can change on an hourly basis.

Now let's examine my program. I apply compost annually, just like that lawn, but the difference is that I apply it over the course of 8 applications instead of 1. Oh and another major difference is that I am applying HALF of the compost per K than is used on that lawn annually (by dry weight). Did you catch that, I am using half of what you are using.

If the soil needs OM, how many years will it take to build soil OM for your program with half the amount?

The goal is to build your SOM up as quickly as possible and sustain it at that level. This is what will provide the most bang for the buck because you will bring the system closer to "self sustaining" quicker.

Do the math JD. If your goal is to raise SOM by 3% in the top 6" of soil, how much OM do you need to accomplish that? If we use the compost calculator that you have conveniently linked to in the past, using the default settings you need 53 tons of compost per acre to amend 6" of soil with a 3% increase.

Since you are assuming I am using 500 lbs for 1/4", then I will assume your program uses 250 lbs/k/year or 10890 lbs/acre/year.

10890 lbs/acre/year = 5.445 tons/acre/year = ~ 10 years.

It will take you ~ 10 years to apply 53 tons/acre at your rate at a total of 80 trips.

At 1/4" per year applied at once, it will take 5 years and a total of 5 trips.

Naturally we both know there are other OM inputs (mulched clippings for one), and there are also loses, but the point I am making is valid. If your goal is to raise and maintain your SOM to an "acceptable" level for your region, which should be the goal of any organic program, then you are taking the long road.

You basically have taken a synthetic program and put an organic wrapper on it and are trying to label it as something new and innovative.

Still want to argue which is the more sustainable option?

In my view, mine is the most sustainable rout. Maybe not the moist lazy/convenient rout, but I am using less input than you are.

Really .... multiple trips to a site is more sustainable (see above break down)? Not only is that not true (you have conveniently forgotten to mention all the other costs involved) but more likely than not will cost the client far more than a single trip/year.

Second, pest control. May I ask you, do you go to the dentist only when you have a cavity? Do you maintain your car only when it is broken down (check and change the oil, check and fill tire pressure, fill gas tank when it has gone dry, etc)? No. So why should you go to a property only when it is having a problem? If you have a property with a problem… you may have been able to avoid the problem had you had it on a regular maintenance (review) schedule.

It is silly IMHO to preach against a scheduled visit to any property. That's like not changing your cars oil. Instead, visit the property regularly and do what it needs during that visit. Does this mean do the same thing on every property in a given day? No!

I'm not "preaching" against scheduled visits, I'm "preaching" against scheduled applications.

Address problems when they arise. Your "organic" program is no different than any other synthetic program. You are selling applications based on your need to collect income, and most likely not based on the minimum needs of the landscape (i.e. the most sustainable). Let's not pretend it is about anything other than that JD.

Need I remind you that I specialize in sustainable solutions? I find the breaking point of landscapes and then develop a program that will maintain the site just above that point. If I can get away with a single application of compost for the entire year during a fall reseed (which with the soils in this region I can for the most part), then I have provided the most sustainable solution to the client and environment. If I want to get SOM to a target level quicker, then I will recommend more applications.

In short, my program is not built around ‘applications’ so next time please don’t assume it is.

B.S. JD.

I "topdress" 8 times a year.

This is what you said, several times. You also added that some sites (probably most) get custom nutrient blends 3-4 times a year, and we both know that involves synthetics given your position on N.

It is built around service. Every time I go to a property they pay me a service fee. My expertise while I am on that scheduled service visit is what determines what is done to that lawn during that service visit. I rely on education, experience, and local conditions/patterns to determine what needs to be done every time.

And how do you determine a lawns needs nutrients/compost on your service visit? Do you have a mobile soil testing lab? Do you go to a site with the intention to apply and decide not to once you observe? Fact of the matter is JD, you probably don't and just apply because that is what you are selling .... applications, specifically 8 applications a year. Funny thing is, you are making the exact same arguments as the fert and squirt guys do when they try to justify their "programs".

The regs here have all witnessed the progression of your program over the past couple of years. Why are you trying to pass it off as something it is not?

Like I said in my original post, my program is not in ‘the box’. I am not an application business and help to do things one way. I am a service business and am free to do what needs to be done, to provide my customer a superior service, while doing it in a way that respects Mother Nature.

Yes, you are free to do as you wish, just as I am free to express my opinion. You have definitely taken a step in the right direction, just like Bills product, but if we are going to truly make a move towards more sustainable landscapes, then the maintenance and input requirements will need to decrease!

BTW, I can't think of a franchise that isn't the very definition of a "box". If you can build a franchise without also building a box, then you may very well be the first.

[pt03]

snip...
It is also important to be on site every 4 to 6 weeks to see what is going on

Pythium can take an entire lawn in a week, same with take all patch


If these diseases can take an entire lawn in a week then the every 4 to 6 weeks wouldn't be adequate, would it?

Heck I don't even know what those diseases are! Shows how much I don't know!:laugh: Maybe I'd be wise to leave these discussions to the pros and just lurk.:walking:

Lloyd

[Prolawnservice]

Kiril,

I get what your saying, and I agree with it, but you try explaining to some of the interesting people of NJ:hammerhead:, good luck, seriously I wish it was that easy.

Explain to me what the difference would be if you pulled up inspected the lawn and if it didn't "need" anything, apply some water (brown or not) or a small amount of compost. Except for the customer, that has been trained by big bucks chemical companies to expect an application:usflag:, feeling more justified in paying your fee. Maybe I need to look for different customers but for me, as much as I would like it not to be the case, it doesn't matter what you put down as long as its something:dizzy:.

[starry night]

If these diseases can take an entire lawn in a week then the every 4 to 6 weeks wouldn't be adequate, would it?

Heck I don't even know what those diseases are! Shows how much I don't know!:laugh: Maybe I'd be wise to leave these discussions to the pros and just lurk.:walking:

Lloyd

So we should refer to you as "Lurking Lloyd"? :laugh:

[starry night]

Kiril,

I get what your saying, and I agree with it, but you try explaining to some of the interesting people of NJ:hammerhead:, good luck, seriously I wish it was that easy.

Explain to me what the difference would be if you pulled up inspected the lawn and if it didn't "need" anything, apply some water (brown or not) or a small amount of compost. Except for the customer, that has been trained by big bucks chemical companies to expect an application:usflag:, feeling more justified in paying your fee. Maybe I need to look for different customers but for me, as much as I would like it not to be the case, it doesn't matter what you put down as long as its something:dizzy:.

Because you don't charge by the visit or according to a schedule. You charge them for the season and promise the result.... as opposed to a schedule or a program. JMO

[Kiril]

Kiril,

I get what your saying, and I agree with it, but you try explaining to some of the interesting people of NJ:hammerhead:, good luck, seriously I wish it was that easy.

Explain to me what the difference would be if you pulled up inspected the lawn and if it didn't "need" anything, apply some water (brown or not) or a small amount of compost. Except for the customer, that has been trained by big bucks chemical companies to expect an application:usflag:, feeling more justified in paying your fee. Maybe I need to look for different customers but for me, as much as I would like it not to be the case, it doesn't matter what you put down as long as its something:dizzy:.

If your clients are going the more sustainable route to begin with, then they should have already seen through the B.S. the big corps spread.

How do you deal with it .... bill for services rendered. Certainly you must have a breakdown of what you charge for each service? If you only do a site inspection, then charge only for a site inspection. If you do a top dress and inspection, then charge accordingly .... and so on.

[Prolawnservice]

Because you don't charge by the visit or according to a schedule. You charge them for the season and promise the result.... as opposed to a schedule or a program. JMO

OK what should the "promise" be. Its easy to make a promise with a chem program there is something for everything and at less than 1/4 the cost of an organic program. I find it hard to promise anything with an organic program especially at the onset except for, the lawn will be healthier and improve the longer I care for it.

[starry night]

OK, that sounds good as a promise. The lawn WILL be healthier. As an example, I took over a client's lawn this season. It was fairly nice but it was on the chemical roller coaster. It also had necrotic disease which this former guy was treating with fungicide twice a year for the last couple seasons. (main reason they changed from him) I know the guy and he told me "good luck, trying to keep this lawn nice and the customer happy. We had to pour on the nitrogen and keep the irrigation cranked." So I cranked DOWN the irrigation, hit it with about a quarter inch of compost. Dropped a little seed with the compost on the dead spots. Guess what? no more disease. I haven't used an ounce of synthetic N the whole season. Just organics (although some not considered sustainable).
This particular client didn't really care what I used, they just wanted a nice lawn. Now they rave about how nice their lawn looks every time I see them. Upscale neighborhood and they say theirs is the nicest lawn on the block.

[Prolawnservice]

If your clients are going the more sustainable route to begin with, then they should have already seen through the B.S. the big corps spread.

How do you deal with it .... bill for services rendered. Certainly you must have a breakdown of what you charge for each service? If you only do a site inspection, then charge only for a site inspection. If you do a top dress and inspection, then charge accordingly .... and so on.

True, but I think its trendy lately to go the sustainable/organic route, people don't want to pay what they should really be charged for what we do. I don't expect to make the same margin as chem lawn care but I do expect to make a fair profit.

They just want the organic/sustainable equivalent of a chemical lawn program for the most part. We try to pre-qualify every estimate on the phone and for the most part I don't go on estimates any more for properties over 1 acre.
In my area there are thousands of McMansions with no or very little landscaping on 1 to 2 acre properties having chemlawn treat it for $140 per app for 4-6 apps and some random guy with no signs and probably doesn't pay for licenses or insurance cutting it to 2" every week for $35, with the same blades on the mower that came with the mower 5 years ago and have never been sharpened. Trying to tell people to plant more or even have us take care of the plants that they have is like speaking another language by itself, now try selling them organic lawn care or even just proper cultural practices.
But they eat organic now so they want organic lawn care too, and they want it for just a little more than chem lawn care because that's how the food they eat is, just a little more, not double or triple for the first year or three.

Sorry for the vent and hijacking the thread, just getting a little frustrated this season.

[Smallaxe]

OK, that sounds good as a promise. The lawn WILL be healthier. As an example, I took over a client's lawn this season. It was fairly nice but it was on the chemical roller coaster. It also had necrotic disease which this former guy was treating with fungicide twice a year for the last couple seasons. (main reason they changed from him) I know the guy and he told me "good luck, trying to keep this lawn nice and the customer happy. We had to pour on the nitrogen and keep the irrigation cranked." So I cranked DOWN the irrigation, hit it with about a quarter inch of compost. Dropped a little seed with the compost on the dead spots. Guess what? no more disease. I haven't used an ounce of synthetic N the whole season. Just organics (although some not considered sustainable).
This particular client didn't really care what I used, they just wanted a nice lawn. Now they rave about how nice their lawn looks every time I see them. Upscale neighborhood and they say theirs is the nicest lawn on the block.

Sounds like you are saving the client money, rather than charging 4 times as much, for organic lawncare. They must have enjoyed that fungicide app. invoice. Twice.
Good job... :)
How many organic apps per season?

[Kiril]

I understand where you are coming from, people are no different there than they are here. Some of my clients have taken years to come around, and only after many discussions regarding proper landscape care.

That said, IMO the main selling point of an "organic" program is a healthier landscape that will require less inputs over time .... which translates into less economic burden on them. If all you are doing is repackaging a synthetic program with organics, you are not really providing this, nor are you necessarily providing a sustainable solution. This is a point that needs to be understood by your clients.

Lower inputs over time and a per year net savings on maintenance is one of the biggest selling points of an organic program, beyond just being a responsible land steward. Yes, applying compost is more expensive, but once the system is balanced, you will generally need far less to get the same results.

The biggest item with regard to you personally and your clients is trust. They have to trust you and your decisions. Once you have this, I have found most people just let you do as you see fit, as long as it fits into their budget.

[ICT Bill]

OK what should the "promise" be. Its easy to make a promise with a chem program there is something for everything and at less than 1/4 the cost of an organic program. I find it hard to promise anything with an organic program especially at the onset except for, the lawn will be healthier and improve the longer I care for it.

Its too expensive.....Myth
Its too bulky......Myth
It costs twice as much......Myth
It doesn't work.......Myth
There are not organic controls for weeds and fungal issues.....Myth

Barry over at Tech Terra has:
Organic granular fert: $1.30 to $1.40 per 1000 (less in bulk)
Organic Liquid Fert: $0.67 per 1000
Grub Control: $2.32 per 1000
Fungal control (brown patch, dollar spot, ect): $1.16 per 1000, maintenance $0.58
Kick butt Transplant liquid: $.20 per caliper inch or foot of shrub
Seed Inoculants: 12 cents per pound of seed
Hydroseed/overseed: 2 thousandths of a penny per sq ft
worm poop
Kelp
Sea weed

I will stack those prices up to ANY synthetic program
How much does 2 acres of bagged fert weigh 500 pounds? you can treat the same area with 6 pounds of tea

These are proven programs that are used on, the little league world series fields, Philly's stadium, Georgetown Prep, Samoset resort, The country club of Brookline, Mets stadium, and hundreds of golf courses and colleges, not to mention over 500 landscaping companies across the country

Too expensive, too bulky, doesn't work....................doesn't fly anymore !!! We have national franchises, that I won't mention, that do not even have an organic program and use the products because they are so cost effective

[starry night]

Prolawn: Heck, anybody in this business who really wants to do a superior job gets frustrated. It's a whole lot easier if you don't care. Don't worry about the thread. It got headed this direction. I guess the answer for now is that you can't convince every client that you are their best choice (organic or whatever).

[Kiril]

How much does 2 acres of bagged fert weigh 500 pounds? you can treat the same area with 6 pounds of tea

I can't believe you just made this comparison. :nono:

[ICT Bill]

I can't believe you just made this comparison. :nono:

Why??? (I can only speak to our tea, no experience with anyone elses)
We get green up 3 or 4 days later so does synthetic
Our green up that lasts 3 to 4 weeks so does synthetic
Our does not leech or volitize into the air to create nitrous oxide, synthetic does
We do not contribute to dead zones in bays and lakes, synthetic does
Our does not poison wells, synthetic does
We stand toe to toe with heavy duty synthetic ferts according to the latest University of Rhode Island testing, better color by 1 point
Ours is made from sustainable sources of waste streams that are US based, synthetic ferts are made from natrual gas contributing to global warming and our countries dependence on foreign oil

A carton of our product weighs 6 pounds and treats 2 acres, bagged synthetic ferts weigh over 500 pounds to treat the same area

synthetic ferts are just unamerican, threat to our water supplies and contibute to global warming

[Kiril]

Why???

They are not equivalent. If they were, the tea would carry the same analysis.

[ICT Bill]

They are not equivalent. If they were, the tea would carry the same analysis.

Our analysis is 2-0-2 with micronutrients in testing done at the University of Rhode Island our product stood toe to toe with some heavy duty synhthetics

Expain that with the soil has to be X mentality, we also doubled active soil organic matter in almost every test

They are equivalent, just ours is much less expensive. No storage, no fork lifts, no one ton trucks to haul it around. just throw it behind the seat in the truck and go

[JDUtah]

13 years and that property is still overseeded and topdressed with 1/4" annually? I don't get it. Less inputs over time? 13 years and no less input? To me that is like saying "Sir, about the time you are buried six feet under, your lawn will not have to have as much input as it does now."

Just doesn't make sense to me.

Sustainable and self sustaining are two different things.

I can use a minimal amount of green waste compost instead of fert right now and be ‘sustainable’.

or

I can claim that one day... after over a decade, that a property won’t need as much input because I have created a 'self sustaining' landscape.

Sorry but in my, and my customers, opinion... I go for sustainable practices, not self sustaining lawns (I don't believe they exist unless you lower the visual threshold).

Anyways I think it is a ballsy claim of less inputs over time, while still adding an annual overseed/topdress after 13 years. OK, maybe not ballsy, just dreamy and overly idealistic.

But I suppose we just have different opinions and goals, and gotta leave it at that.

Before I go, how about a few phone snapshots of some of my lawns. Zero oversseding. No need for it.

[pt03]

Reading the latest posts, I find myself getting more confused.:dizzy:

What exactly are you guys talking about when you use the word 'inputs'?

When I consider the 'inputs' for growing my grain, it involves everything. Seed, fertilizer, fuel, time, wear and tear on machinery, property taxes, etc. etc. Basically anything that I can deduct as an expense to creating my grain from start to finish.

I am sensing that not everyone here is using the same definition of 'inputs'

Lloyd:canadaflag:

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

why does no body care that every thread turns into a commercial with totally over the top outrageous unsubstantiated claims? this forum is a complete joke.

[Kiril]

Our analysis is 2-0-2 with micronutrients in testing done at the University of Rhode Island our product stood toe to toe with some heavy duty synhthetics

Expain that with the soil has to be X mentality, we also doubled active soil organic matter in almost every test

They are equivalent, just ours is much less expensive. No storage, no fork lifts, no one ton trucks to haul it around. just throw it behind the seat in the truck and go

Bill, a comparison of N-P-K (pound for pound) introduced into the system will show they are NOT equivalent.

I am not arguing against tea, but please temper your sales literature with the truth. It doesn't do you or anyone else any good in this industry when you stretch the truth.

[Kiril]

13 years and that property is still overseeded and topdressed with 1/4" annually? I don't get it. Less inputs over time? 13 years and no less input? To me that is like saying "Sir, about the time you are buried six feet under, your lawn will not have to have as much input as it does now."

Just doesn't make sense to me.

Sustainable and self sustaining are two different things.

I can use a minimal amount of green waste compost instead of fert right now and be ‘sustainable’.

or

I can claim that one day... after over a decade, that a property won’t need as much input because I have created a 'self sustaining' landscape.

Sorry but in my, and my customers, opinion... I go for sustainable practices, not self sustaining lawns (I don't believe they exist unless you lower the visual threshold).

Anyways I think it is a ballsy claim of less inputs over time, while still adding an annual overseed/topdress after 13 years. OK, maybe not ballsy, just dreamy and overly idealistic.

But I suppose we just have different opinions and goals, and gotta leave it at that.

Before I go, how about a few phone snapshots of some of my lawns. Zero oversseding. No need for it.

There is no comparing 80 trips vs. 5 JD, simple as that. The amount of resources you consume to execute your program is phenomenal in comparison.

You can double talk all you want but you can't hide the truth. There is more to sustainability than your bank account.

FYI, the lawn doesn't need to be over seeded ever year, it is simply what I recommend to anyone that wants a show case lawn.

[Kiril]

Reading the latest posts, I find myself getting more confused.:dizzy:

What exactly are you guys talking about when you use the word 'inputs'?

When I consider the 'inputs' for growing my grain, it involves everything. Seed, fertilizer, fuel, time, wear and tear on machinery, property taxes, etc. etc. Basically anything that I can deduct as an expense to creating my grain from start to finish.

I am sensing that not everyone here is using the same definition of 'inputs'

Lloyd:canadaflag:

You are correct. An input is anything that is done to the system that would not take place naturally, including labor and all the hidden costs associated with that labor.

[starry night]

why does no body care that every thread turns into a commercial with totally over the top outrageous unsubstantiated claims? this forum is a complete joke.

Nothing personal since I don't know you BUT merely from logic:
1) maybe somebody else does care
2) probably "every" thread doesn't turn commercial
3) maybe some threads do, maybe none do
4) maybe it's a joke; maybe it's not
5) nobody forces you to be here reading

[ICT Bill]

Bill, a comparison of N-P-K (pound for pound) introduced into the system will show they are NOT equivalent.

I am not arguing against tea, but please temper your sales literature with the truth. It doesn't do you or anyone else any good in this industry when you stretch the truth.

I am not stretching the truth, but did get a little worked up
equivalent was the wrong word, same results is better, I am off my soap box

Growing, It sure would be nice if you actually entered the conversation. We have seen your ability to bash, how about some decent input
It is simple to say "no way", show us your slant, give some input, help out some of the new folks with your knowledge

I am not holding my breath

JD, breath taking site, nice job. Very sweet indeed. What type of turf do you guys use.

[Kiril]

equivalent was the wrong word, same results is better, I am off my soap box

Same visual results based on a subjective determination of turf quality by color, assuming a NDVI meter was not used. Perhaps a good test would be to compare soil nutrients, leaf tissue nutrients, root density between the two systems.

I am also curious what you mean exactly by active organic matter. You are not actually increasing SOM are you? Decomposing clippings would be a good example of active organic matter.

If you aren't seeing an increase in the active fraction using a microbial tea, then that would mean the product is not working as anything more than a very dilute liquid fertilizer.

A two fold increase would also indicate there is a clearly distinguishable source of fresh organic matter coming into the system, and the tea plots is transitioning that source into the active pool quicker than the synthetic plots, which would not be surprising.

Perhaps if you could explain, or even better yet post the field study. I am curious how they are differentiating between the different organic matter pools.

[Turf Tech]

Eco I apply about .4 cy per 1k and get very good results. It is still alot of material. A 4 yd load weighs in at close to 6000 lbs if it isnt to wet. I can do a little over 8k sf with that. I am applying at about 1/4 of an inch. I think that 1/8 of an inch would show some good results but you may have to apply more than once a year. I apply 1/4 inch once a year. My yards are looking very good compared to the other houses on the block. There is a visible line where I compost. Material here cost me 10 yd and it is very nice fine compost. I charge 30.00 per 1000 for materials and application. Main reason is I have to shovel it into my spreader. It is hard work and hurts by back but get great results. I am working on a 7 yd trailer with a live floor to fill my machine which will make life much easier. I might lower my prices after it is up and going.

I am going to give the ICT organics tea a try on a few yards and see if performs as well. It is much easier to spray a liquid than spreading all that material. I am a little skeptical, but I have been suprised by products before.

I would like to find a large area like a city park and do a 8' swath of compost and 8' swath of tea with about 20' between them and take pictures once a week and see how they progress.

[ICT Bill]

Eco I apply about .4 cy per 1k and get very good results. It is still alot of material. A 4 yd load weighs in at close to 6000 lbs if it isnt to wet. I can do a little over 8k sf with that. I am applying at about 1/4 of an inch. I think that 1/8 of an inch would show some good results but you may have to apply more than once a year. I apply 1/4 inch once a year. My yards are looking very good compared to the other houses on the block. There is a visible line where I compost. Material here cost me 10 yd and it is very nice fine compost. I charge 30.00 per 1000 for materials and application. Main reason is I have to shovel it into my spreader. It is hard work and hurts by back but get great results. I am working on a 7 yd trailer with a live floor to fill my machine which will make life much easier. I might lower my prices after it is up and going.

I am going to give the ICT organics tea a try on a few yards and see if performs as well. It is much easier to spray a liquid than spreading all that material. I am a little skeptical, but I have been suprised by products before.

I would like to find a large area like a city park and do a 8' swath of compost and 8' swath of tea with about 20' between them and take pictures once a week and see how they progress.

Our product should work in conjunction with organic matter applications, it can work as a stand alone but the OM should be at least 2% and work well at 5 to 7% OM

The side of the carton says " Part of a well balanced soil fertility program"

[terrapro]

I am going to give the ICT organics tea a try on a few yards and see if performs as well. It is much easier to spray a liquid than spreading all that material. I am a little skeptical, but I have been suprised by products before.

I would like to find a large area like a city park and do a 8' swath of compost and 8' swath of tea with about 20' between them and take pictures once a week and see how they progress.

CT is not a replacement for good compost. The only organic matter you would be putting into the ground is dead microbes and if you are counting on that you might as well use milorganite.

CT and the various meals should be used as a supplement with compost being the main course.

I am not saying you can't have a green lawn while using meals and CT but if you are trying to add OG they won't accomplish the same thing as compost will.

[NattyLawn]

CT is not a replacement for good compost. The only organic matter you would be putting into the ground is dead microbes and if you are counting on that you might as well use milorganite.

CT and the various meals should be used as a supplement with compost being the main course.

I am not saying you can't have a green lawn while using meals and CT but if you are trying to add OG they won't accomplish the same thing as compost will.

Wow, spoken like someone who has no idea what they're talking about. So if I put down 20lbs per k of alfalfa meal, then spray a high quality CT on top of it I'm not doing anything for the soil? I'm adding plenty of organic matter over the course of a season, and food for the biology to grow and thrive or feed the biology already in the soil. Good cultural practices will help add OM too.

How do you know if the compost you're applying has any life in it? Are you looking at it under the scope?

Oh well, I'm going out to buy a few tons of Milorganite.

[terrapro]

Wow, spoken like someone who has no idea what they're talking about. So if I put down 20lbs per k of alfalfa meal, then spray a high quality CT on top of it I'm not doing anything for the soil? I'm adding plenty of organic matter over the course of a season, and food for the biology to grow and thrive or feed the biology already in the soil. Good cultural practices will help add OM too.

How do you know if the compost you're applying has any life in it? Are you looking at it under the scope?

Oh well, I'm going out to buy a few tons of Milorganite.

Wow, spoken like someone who makes assumptions and puts words into others mouths.

There is more organic matter in 1/4 of good compost then 20lbs per K of alfalfa meal.

I was speaking of CT having little OM not meals, meals I just threw in there as info to compare.

You are telling me there is more fibrous degradable material in CT compared to compost? :dizzy:

There was no point where I said compost will do a better job of bringing life to a soil then CT and meals combined just that there is more OM in compost then in CT.

Good luck with you and yours. :)

[JDUtah]

JD, breath taking site, nice job. Very sweet indeed. What type of turf do you guys use.

Thanks. Both those sites are KBG which is the main grass species used out here.

I am saving the best pics for my website, including pics of a 7 acre church campground that I maintain on a bridge program. (5 Acres of turf, under shade trees with river running through. I hear the fishing is better than it has ever been.)

[NattyLawn]

Wow, spoken like someone who makes assumptions and puts words into others mouths.

There is more organic matter in 1/4 of good compost then 20lbs per K of alfalfa meal.

I was speaking of CT having little OM not meals, meals I just threw in there as info to compare.

You are telling me there is more fibrous degradable material in CT compared to compost? :dizzy:

There was no point where I said compost will do a better job of bringing life to a soil then CT and meals combined just that there is more OM in compost then in CT.

Good luck with you and yours. :)

A lot of people don't explain themselves until they're called out. Treegal called you out quite a bit. Aren't you the guy that posted all that wrong info on worm castings?

[ted putnam]

JD, breath taking site, nice job. Very sweet indeed. What type of turf do you guys use.

Agreed... Excellent work. I gathered from reading JD's posts that he uses products and techniques from varying "schools of thought". Flexibility to achieve desired results. I like that. If every lawn was self sustaining, the vast majority of us wouldn't have a job. Again, nice work JD.

[terrapro]

A lot of people don't explain themselves until they're called out. Treegal called you out quite a bit. Aren't you the guy that posted all that wrong info on worm castings?

You mean this...http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=272478&highlight=worm+casting

Lol, she said I was wrong about something I later found out was absolutley right but don't have the time to sit here and fight off treegals and your opinion of me...and since then anyway she had told me that she thought I was someone else which was why she was targeting me :laugh:

It was not my fault you misunderstood what I was saying, I thought my post was very straight forward..

Again, good luck with you and yours. :)

[ecoguy]

Wow. Hey guys. I actually forgot about this post of mine and 6 pages later wow, interesting dialogue. Kiril and JD thanks for the debate, I learned a lot. Btw - why not let the customer's lawn dictate the program. Test the soil at least twice a year and go from there.

[Kiril]

why not let the customer's lawn dictate the program.

That is the way it should be.

Test the soil at least twice a year and go from there.

I don't think 2 times a year is needed. Perhaps if you want to compare results at the beginning of the season and the end of the season to see what impact your program has on soil fertility in one season that may be useful. However I don't feel you need that many tests in order to successfully execute a program in any typical landscape scenario.

I would recommend one test yearly, taken at the same time every year, for the first 3-4 years depending on results, then perhaps every 2-3 years after that. Bottom line, it really is a judgment call based on comparison of results per site.

[ICT Bill]

I think once a year is enough as well and time of year is important
We have a franchise that uses our products and is doing soil bio-assay's this week, they are in WI and Chicago. The soil temps are well below 50 probably in the 40's, personally I don't think they will gather the information that they hoped

Once a battery of soil tests are done on your customers properties you should get a good feel for the soils generally and not have to do as many. As you "know" your area better you will only have to do them when somethig is out of whack