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charmill26
08-31-2009, 10:41 AM
Hello everyone I would like to first start off by saying I am Not licensed yet but am studying. These questions are for my own lawn. I have applied trimec to my lawn in hope of controlling the clovers that seem to keep popping up but I don't seem to get a complete kill. Should I be mixing something else in? I believe I have read about adding stickers? I am applying with a bp sprayer.

Thanks in advance

Marcos
08-31-2009, 11:06 AM
Apparently you're not in with the 'in' crowd, charmill.

A growing trend of this new green millennium is to have an understory of clover within your turf in order to secure nitrogen from the atmosphere and to provide nutrition to the turf that shades it.
In essence, turf & clover can live in a symbiotic relationship:

http://www.lesslawn.com/articles/article1061.html

A 'weed' by definition of the general public is vegetation in some location where it is undesirable.
In other words, they are what they are in the eye of the beholder.

Dandilion flowers for many folks stand out strikingly as 'weeds' because they contrast so sharply with deep green turf. This is quite understandable.
But in many lawn situations that are otherwise managed as a clover / turf balance, a person standing on the curb on the lawn next door typically cannot make any distinction whether or not there are 'weeds' in such a lawn, assuming the mowing height is correct to stem any potential flowering in the clover.

suzook
08-31-2009, 12:52 PM
a person standing on the curb on the lawn next door typically cannot make any distinction whether or not there are 'weeds' in such a lawn, assuming the mowing height is correct to stem any potential flowering in the clover.

So true. How many lawns look great from the street, or neighbors house? Then when you start mowing, you notice all the defects, and weeds.

JWTurfguy
08-31-2009, 01:47 PM
Charmill,

From reading your post, it sounds like you don't care about being part of the "in" crowd. You and I have something in common. Unfortunately, proper control of clover is difficult in the summer because it's a winter annual. You'd get better control in the late fall, but assuming you don't want to wait that long, Horsepower (aka Eliminate) does a pretty good job, but I don't know what's restricted in your state. Ask your dealer for a broadleaf herbicide containing triclopyr.

You might also consider having your soil tested. Clover thrives in low-fertility soils, so there's a chance that you're either not fertilizing properly, or your pH is out of range so that the fert you're applying isn't readily available.

Or, I suppose, you can join the IN crowd (lol) and just learn to like your weeds.

Shane

LawnoftheMonth
08-31-2009, 01:58 PM
Trimec Southern is what i use, but i can only apply it when it's below 86 degrees here or it will burn the st. augustine we have. The heat kills it off when it gets about 95 degrees here.

I'm curious as to whether or not my customers who started my program with bad clover issues will have it again this coming winter, after a year of my fertilizer applications.

Marcos
08-31-2009, 02:34 PM
I'm curious as to whether or not my customers who started my program with bad clover issues will have it again this coming winter, after a year of my fertilizer applications.

Gradually over 'X' amount of time as this current old school generation slowly dies off, this newer, oncoming generation will increasingly think of grounds maintenance in more pro active terms such as 'building the soil'.

Implementation of 5 step programs, or the practice of 'feeding the grass' using atmosphere & mine-derived N P & K's, will be increasingly compared to an addiction to junk food.

In fast food there's almost always alot of calories & carbs for the purpose of a quick pick-me-up, but usually next to no long term food value in terms of vitamins, minerals & fiber.

Good, healthy food is more expensive than junk food, of course.
Same thing goes for the best stuff for the lawn!

Feed the SOIL, not the grass!:waving:

phasthound
08-31-2009, 04:42 PM
Gradually over 'X' amount of time as this current old school generation slowly dies off, this newer, oncoming generation will increasingly think of grounds maintenance in more pro active terms such as 'building the soil'.

And don't forget that this type of client will not harass you about a few weeds. These are the clients I am cultivating.

RigglePLC
08-31-2009, 09:56 PM
So...Phast...what can he, or I, use to kill dandelions, but not clover?

Marcos
09-01-2009, 12:04 PM
So...Phast...what can he, or I, use to kill dandelions, but not clover?

How are you personally thinking about accomplishing this?
Where do you stand on this issue? :confused:

Are you one of the ones walking the line between 'traditional chemicals' & organic lawn care, a.k.a....a bridge-organics person/company?
Or do want to go 100% natural all the way?

A bridge applicator like myself may go about nourishing someone's lawn soil with a late spring dousing of finished compost at a depth of approx 1/3", preferably after a healthy core aeration & rainfall.
Or, if the customer doesn't like the idea of ......"manure"..:laugh:... on their lawn to be drug inside by the kids and/or dogs, we'll substitute a program of various protein meals like corn meal, soybean meal, cotton seed meal, etc.

Weeds? :confused:
Going in to the lawn of a NEW prospect that's blatantly chuck full o' weeds, often we'll be forced to do a 2, 4-d cover spray to get things sort of under control.
If your goal is to control dandilions and to spare the clover, go to a farm co-op or Tractor Supply and buy non-ester 2, 4-d.....period! No other ingredients!
If on the other hand the lawn is one of those hit-n miss, here-&-there dandilion or whatever undesirable perennial broadleaf scattered in amongst the clover, the preferred mode of control is using a backpack sprayer, the same simple non-ester formulation of 2, 4-d, and a shot of blue tracker dye to mark the hits.

Compost/ meals?....... then 2,4-d?.....huh? :confused:
Don't be alarmed!
This type of practice is at the very center of IPM (Integrated Pest Management).
But many organic purists scoff at it in terms of it being part of the picture in the future because they say it's... "not sustainable".
I disagree.
I believe that we can use wisely & sparingly some of the WW II era chemisty and combine it with all the things our grandfathers & great-grandfathers knew that're now being un-earthed after being essentially lost for 3 to 4 generations of Americana. :usflag:

Now....
The long term goal I try to establish in the minds of our clientele is to get their turf SOOOOOOOOO thick & healthy by means of improving the SOIL incrementally over time with compost, meals, etc... that ultimately most weeds wont have much of a chance to get their foot in the door.
And since we don't offer mowing as part of our services, this means that we have to work really hard to TRAIN our customers to know how to manage their turf correctly with their own mowers & sprinklers.
But, what is somewhat MORE difficult to do, is the training of the customer to better manage the overall actions of their MOWING COMPANY! :laugh: :cry::dizzy::hammerhead:

Stillwater
09-01-2009, 12:09 PM
Great post Marcos

americanlawn
09-01-2009, 07:55 PM
Most of our customers call for a free service call when they see clover in their lawn. So then we spray it. Clover in turf is a weed.

RigglePLC
09-01-2009, 08:18 PM
Marcos,
thanks for your comments. I am not truly an organic farmer type. But I like to take care by using friendly chemicals. And accomodate my customers who are environmentally concerned. I was just thinking last year during the huge increase in nitrogen prices. What if...a customer wanted me to seed their lawn with clover so he would not have to fertilize it? Could it be done? Could I still kill most other weeds. I see that clover is not on the label of Quicksilver (carfentrazone). Of course black medic as a legume could be used for the same purpose--its an annual. But it is listed as susceptible on the Quicksilver label. http://www.fmcprosolutions.com/Portals/pest/Content/Docs/Labels/Label_QuickSilver_T-O_Herbicide_7_05-C.pdf

phasthound
09-01-2009, 08:26 PM
I agree with Marcos. Occasional pesticide applications are fine if they are used with a soil improvement program. Feed the soil.

I like to use the term Plant Health Care instead of Integrated Pest Management because the emphasis is on the plant rather than the pest. Healthy plants are more capable of dealing with insects, disease and environmental stresses.

Take it a step further and practice Soil Health Care and plants do even better.

However, even if you follow these concepts in your business there are times when you need pesticides to get something under control and then follow up with sound practices to improve plant health.

IMHO, the current reliance on pesticides is all about making money. Well, here's some news, you can make even more money by using better practices that set your business apart from the normal lawn care company.

greendoctor
09-02-2009, 01:39 AM
Marcos,
thanks for your comments. I am not truly an organic farmer type. But I like to take care by using friendly chemicals. And accomodate my customers who are environmentally concerned. I was just thinking last year during the huge increase in nitrogen prices. What if...a customer wanted me to seed their lawn with clover so he would not have to fertilize it? Could it be done? Could I still kill most other weeds. I see that clover is not on the label of Quicksilver (carfentrazone). Of course black medic as a legume could be used for the same purpose--its an annual. But it is listed as susceptible on the Quicksilver label. http://www.fmcprosolutions.com/Portals/pest/Content/Docs/Labels/Label_QuickSilver_T-O_Herbicide_7_05-C.pdf

From what I have seen with the leguminous weeds that I spray. Quicksilver will burn clover, black medic or even the other weird leguminous vegetation that I seen in lawns. However, it by itself will not do anything permanent. The weed will quickly regenerate from the taproot. I think you might be ok spraying weeds in lawns where you want to keep legumes if there is no 2,4DP, MCPP, dicamba, triclopyr, fluroxypyr, or clopyralid. Straight 2,4-D amine + Quicksilver will become your broadleaf mix.

Marcos
09-02-2009, 09:35 AM
From what I have seen with the leguminous weeds that I spray. Quicksilver will burn clover, black medic or even the other weird leguminous vegetation that I seen in lawns. However, it by itself will not do anything permanent. The weed will quickly regenerate from the taproot. I think you might be ok spraying weeds in lawns where you want to keep legumes if there is no 2,4DP, MCPP, dicamba, triclopyr, fluroxypyr, or clopyralid. Straight 2,4-D amine + Quicksilver will become your broadleaf mix.

You're correct.
When carfentrazone (Quicksilver) was originally formulated for turf it was intended to be a tank-mix agent to complement the standard 2, 4-d blends commonly sold.
FMC product reps were told to support it in this same manner, I'm sure.
But unfortunately, much of the advertising marketing to the end-user neglected to mention any such tank mix. Or if it did, it was in relatively small lettering.

As a result....You might remember! :cry:
'X' number of lawn jockeys ventured out a few years ago to use Quicksilver as a stand alone, came back to tell us 4-7 days later that it was "God's gift to Creation", only to choke on every word they said within the next two weeks when they discovered that virtually every weed they sprayed had regenerated from the root! :dizzy:

Marcos
09-02-2009, 09:58 AM
[QUOTE=phasthound;3169536]
I like to use the term Plant Health Care instead of Integrated Pest Management because the emphasis is on the plant rather than the pest. Healthy plants are more capable of dealing with insects, disease and environmental stresses.

I used the term "IPM" because this is the Pesticide forum, not the Organic forum.
Although if you really think about it, it doesn't make any difference at the end of the day either way.

There are still WAY TOO MANY
folks in the green industry who consider urea-based / pesticide based programs 'incompatible' with bio-based programs.
And vice-versa!

I'm not going to pull any punches just for the sake of the folks on the other forum.
But on the other hand, I DO believe that there can be alot more cooperation in the future, maybe so much so that... some day... Lawnsite may only need to have 1 turf maintenance forum, for everyone.

bx24
09-02-2009, 08:28 PM
Hello everyone I would like to first start off by saying I am Not licensed yet but am studying. These questions are for my own lawn. I have applied trimec to my lawn in hope of controlling the clovers that seem to keep popping up but I don't seem to get a complete kill. Should I be mixing something else in? I believe I have read about adding stickers? I am applying with a bp sprayer.

Thanks in advance

Clover is very very simple to control....

If you are using it on your own lawn buy whatever you can..I still use Confront since you can still buy it anywhere.