Customer thinks $40 per man hr is too much for young worker(25)....

[MLI]

I had a ton of responses for these such questions....was interest in what you guys said in the past. lol....One of my responses has been ...well sir thats the going rate, and last I checked I was in biz to make money!! Another was....hmmmm okkkkk how about $50 for me seeing Im 35 and have a Hort degree...and for the 24 yr old....lets say $30!...hmmmmmmmmmm ok thats still $40 per hr Or better yet!!....how about all seniors, because they are older, they must be worth more, Ill bet they can lift real heavy things, and work alllllll day in the 90 degree weather. Bottom line......its pisses me off when someone thinks they can tell you how to run a biz. I wonder if these folks know that kids coming outta vocational schools are the ones working for GM and Ford....their rates are charged out at $65 per hr. for mechanical work, the list goes on and on plumbers$60 per hr, Carpenters, Electricians etc etc....funny thing is we show up with more money invested in equipment then anyother trades, our machines have a quicker turnover rate than most trades blows my mind! Any responses?...love too hear, because Im going toprint it out and just hand it to people that start in on the young ones. :angry:

[sbvfd592]

The way it has bin for me this spring is when someone asks how much I tell my price most of the time not less than 40, They will say OK go for it me being 16 and all then i show up with my professional walk behind and trimmers and BP blowers some times with a buddy of mine who has a f 250 (I will be getting a truck soon :) ) and 20 min later we are done with the lawn and the costumer is home some come out and be like wow I cant believe you are done some of the older ones even add in a lil extra cash :D . point is some care but if not I just don't take the job but i have only turnd down 2 this year.

[MLI]

Im not really even refering to mowing...im talking construction ie. mulching, pruning, walks, retaining walls, planting, clean ups, design work, plantings etc etc!

[wmsland]

$40.00 an hour seems about right.

[sbvfd592]

ya my contract says 65 and if they are to lazy to read it they get burnt but I mostly get $40 M P H

[wolfpacklawn]

$40 sounds like a lot of money per hour to these people becasue most of them probably make much less. But they pay for servies at $40 per hour all the time but don't realize it. I can't think of any business in which the employee costs less than $40 per hour. I guarantee you that the fast food joints brings in $40 per hour per employee so in a sense you are getting charged that amount per hour for their services. No one could stay in business and pay all the insurance, taxes, etc. and still turn a profit without getting less than $35 to $40 per hour

[Evan528]

I also get about that per hour depending on what kind of service I am providing. I do not tell customers my hourly rate though..... I simply estimate in my head how many man hours it will take and multiply it by 40.....people are ok paying 500 dollars for a job....but when you tell them 40 dollars per man hour they think its insane. I feel no need to tell them what I am making an hour....they are paying for the results of my work.....not my time.

[Russo]

"Sir, I'm sure you can find someone with no insurance, little or no experience, and who doesn't pay taxes to do the job for a case of beer, but we are professionals. I always recommend that clients shop for other bids because it is the wise thing to do. However, choosing a contractor based soley on price is not."

[BRIAN GALLO]

Evan528 hit it right on. What they don't know won't hurt them! If you told them it was $18 per hr. they would probably still flip. Try to estimate the whole job, but make sure you don't undercut yourself. In reality, the customer gets the best deal when they pay per hr., they just don't think so. That is provided you don't take a break every 5 min. and throw cig butts everywhere like some contractors do....lol. ;)

[eslawns]

I don't quote hourly rates either. I just tell them it will be $X.xx and if they want me to do it, great. Some of the most menial jobs out there end up costing people far more.

[parkwest]

NEVER EVER give a customer an hourly rate. No matter what you tell them they will say that it is too much.

[southside]

I agree,never give out hourly rates. Always try to give a fixed price.

[proline32]

Ditto on the hourly rates..... It not the customers business what you make per hour, all you need to do is give them a price and they can live with it that is fine, Basicly it's class warfare when someone tries to tell you that what you make per hour is "too much " for your age. That is BS, Age has nothing to do with what your expenses are and a customer that acts like is probably one that thinks you are ripping them off. Mainly I found that senior citizens think any amount is too much and that is why I won't work for them not to mention they complain all the time regardless of how good a job you do. But as I have said in a previous thread, they don't mind paying for a new caddillac.

[wolfpacklawn]

I don't totally agree with the idea that you never give an hourly rate. I do this with all of my customers and rarely have a problem. I do lawn and landscape maint. primarily. All of my customers have a set lawn price and then for any extras they know they will be charged at $35 per man hour. It seems silly to try and bid weeding or hedge trimming or other little projects that may only take an hour or less. All of my customers know and understand that we are going to take care of these things as needed or requested and they know and trust us that we will be fair with what they will be charged.

Also if you are doing sprinkler repair work you can never give an accurate bid on how long something is going to take or what problems you may encounter as you do the job and therefore an hourly rate is the only way to go.

I know i'm in the minority on my way of thinking but I have had more success by going the hourly rate than a flat bid. I will give ballpark estimates on some bigger jobs but it's still done by the hour. Also it seemed that when I used to give flat bids on certain work the customer would inevitably start adding on little things here and there that they also wanted done and then think it would be included in the original price.

What do you do with a bid to clean up leaves in the fall. One customer may think the bid will include getting every single leaf out of every nook and cranny in the yard as well as getting every little piece of debri out of every bush etc. Another may just want you to blow out the beds and do a basic cleanup. In my thinking those are two very different bids and its hard to always read the customers expectations of the job even if you talk with them. An hourly rate keeps the customer and you from getting burned on a bid.

I may be wrong but an hourly rate has been working for me over the last two years and my customers(approx 80 weekly lawn accounts) seem to be happy with it as well.

[Bob Minney]

For maintenance work
Like most I have my hourly rate, so figure hours it will take then give customer a set $$ amount for the job. Getting the time estimate correct comes with experience, and I always allow a little extra.
If I do a little better on some-good for me
If I under-estimate a little - I remind myself to pay attention to what I missed - but get the job done for the agreed $$
On things like clean up it takes a few minutes to cover what the expected results are. Add ons cost extra- if you want to be paid for these things you have to communicate this to customer as soon as they ask.

I can see where this would not work on things like sprinkler repair-but just like going to a mechanic that has to do trouble shooting he will say to find the problem could cost from $$ to $$ and then we can quote the repairs. most reasonable people understand this- those that don't, you wouldnt want as customers

Say I quote something at $125 and they say "That much!! Ive only been paying $35".
It sound like you're looking for the kid down the street-and away I go.

[bobbygedd]

the only time i quote hourly is for fall leaf cleanup for those who we do not do any other work for. i quote $65 per hour. i also tell them roughly how long i think it will take, but im not locked in, i charge down to the minute regardless. as u all know know, if u r charging $40 an hour, u r not netting the same $40. people dont understand that, they think u r pocketting 40 an hour, and they jump out of their socks

[proline32]

thats the problem bobby, they think were pocketing that $40 per hour and driving home to our supermodel wives and our BMW's parked in the garage, It's ok for them to have that but not the lawnman. CLASS WARFARE. We're forced to try to educate the customer, A majority of them have never worked for themselves and see a regular check from some company but they don't understand how that company charges for thier time. I used to try to educate customers on business expenses and my accountant told me I was wasting my time and that it's not the customers business what My expenses are, and he is right.

[NewbieOwner]

I'm in a similar situation...

My in-laws are one of my customers, and I quoted them a price for a cleanup, then got it done. (did it a tad faster than I figured I would; but at the same time did a PRIMO job, you can't find a leaf on that properly! Not even a leaf from an old annual in the beds!)

Anyway, they were happy with the price, until they saw how fast I did it. They figured it would take all day (took me 3 hours).

Anyway, after a longish drawn out argument. I explained to them, I have to pay for my equipment (its purchase, maintenance, and replacement). I have to pay for my insurance (I'm 25, no insurance break yet, next year) Gas, Licensing.

Then I added, that I also had to make sure I can afford to put away for _MY_ retirement, since there will be no gov't pension for me when I need to retire. But meanwhile I have to pay huge taxes to pay for theirs! Of course they scoffed, finally I just said, "You would like your daughter to be able to retire before she dies wouldn't you?" That shut them up pretty quick! :D Maybe that would only work on Inlaws though?

Andrew

[Soupy]

I just wish my wife would let me charge her parents :(

I charge both ways. But on the bottom of my monthly statements it says, that all work performed without an estimate will be charge $60 per man hour. Then when a customer calls me and says trim my hedges. I just go out and do it and charge them by the hour.

I did get in a descussion earlier with my Father about chargeing his neighbor $180 to trim some hedges. He said for 3 hours worth of work, I over charged her. I explained that I actually gave her a deal because I didn't charge her for removal. He said he was going into the business and that I should watch out. I explained to him, that I have survived all the other scrubs, Why would he be any different.

Soupy

[Sean Adams]

Soupy called his Dad a scrub.... I love it.

Easier to have existing clients pay an hourly rate than a new client. A level of trust exists. Most posts here are right... people do not understand what goes in (and out of) an hourly rate. Assumptions are deadly.... Most assume people in this industry aren't worth that money, shouldn't earn that money, or even have the nerve to ask for that money ($40, $50, $60 per hour)...

[Soupy]

Sean, My dad asked me what a scrub was and when I told him he said that he would out bid me and still be legit. told him that he would be the one going out of business, not me. He has no intention of going into the business. But he feels that I am over chargeing. He has the same mentallity as alot of people about our line of work. I think he thought I had a low paying job untill we had this descussion. Maybe now he will stop telling me I should get a real job.

The conversation ended with him telling me that he was just trying to help me. I responded with, Help me do what, Make less money.

I do have to give my dad credit, he tought me what I needed to know to get started. He owned a Softball complex and that is were I worked as a kid. We had the best ball diamonds around.

Soupy

[James234]

I don't think it's good to compare a plumber or an electrician to someone who mows lawns. Plumbers and electricians are skilled professionals who must be licensed and their work must meet code requirements and is subject to inspection by code enforcement officers. To put it another way, you can ask a local 15 year old to mow your lawn and pay him the money. Who would ask a local 15 year old to install a toilet or a new electrical circuit in their house? There is a BIG difference here. Depending on the market, $15 to $25 per hour for lawn mowing is plenty.

[Sean Adams]

Are you a business owner in this industry? Seems like an odd position to take if in fact you are.

[TGCummings]

James,

How do you pay for health insurance, plan for retirement, cover expenses, get licenses, liability, cover the mortgage, and still eat on $15/hour?

[parkwest]

Jimbo2345, Prove your gratuitous assertion. Do a breakeven analysis on your equipment, labor cost, overhead and prove to us how you can make it on $15/mhr. SHOW ME THE NUMBERS. Otherwise sit back, read and learn.

By the way we already did the plumber versus the LCO.

[James234]

Historically speaking, 25 years ago the residential lawn mowing business did not exist! However the federal government changed all that because of the A-76 program. Without going into detail, the federal government found that it was far less expensive to contract out many maintenance jobs (especially lawn mowing) to private firms rather than pay their own employees to do the work. As a result you'll find that many federal facilities use federal inmates from local prison camps to do their lawn work and this includes "expert" work such as the many military golf courses. Same thing is true with state and county governments. While chain gangs are mostly a thing of the past, you still see them in some states. Do you understand my drift? The worst of our society regularly cuts grass and they do a great job while saving us taxpayers lots of money.

As an employer, I have to make sure my employees (85) have health insurance, life insurance, 401K, social security, workman's compensation and other benefits (for example, a "living wage"). Sure, the equipment is expensive but that is why the IRS allows amortization.

McDonalds, Wal Mart and others know the same thing. It is much less expensive for them to hire a private contractor to do the lawn work. However, you must be competitive in your bid. Quotes of $40 to $60 an hour are not in the ball park and I don't think you should complain about "scabs" doing the work for less. If you make that much per hour, then by all means never quote an hourly rate and be honest on your 10-40 return or you too could be cutting grass as a federal inmate.

[parkwest]

Originally posted by James234
Historically speaking, 25 years ago the residential lawn mowing business did not exist

You continue to post gratuitous assertions.

My dad had a lawn business when he was in his late teens and early twenties. He's almost 80 now. You do the math.

Once again I ask, SHOW ME YOUR NUMBERS. What is your break even point versus your assertion that $15/mhr is more than fair compensation.

As for Walmart, and other not cutting their own grass. That's not their forte. Same as a builder hiring your plumbing contractor to plumb a building, knowing he could hire a plumber for a whole lot less and do it himself in-house. Because it's not the builder's forte.

[wolfpacklawn]

james23456789

You claim that you give a "living wage" to your employees. Isn't that about $12- 15 per hour? Then a 401K and health insurance. If you have a business with 85 employees you should be able to do simple math. Simple math would show that your business is in the red. I have a feeling that you are making these post just to get people worked up.

[The Lawn Choupique]

I wonder just how many Lawn Care company owners got their
start in the business on the chain gang. I guess that it could count as on the job training. After a few years on the chain gang, $15 a hour would probably look mighty good.

[James234]

"My dad had a lawn business when he was in his late teens and early twenties. He's almost 80 now. You do the math."

Great post parkwest! Proves my point. It's a business for children or those with little experience to start up. Hey, I'm not putting that down. Opportunity is where you find it. Bring them on!
:p

[Sean Adams]

I think what needs to be realized is this.... Yes, James is correct when he says that it is not difficult to perform (some of) this kind of work at a very young age or without experience. Any 10 year old can fire up a lawn mower. But that is not what this forum is about. Successfully and profitably owning and operating a green industry business is considerably different that just "firing up a lawn mower". There comes that point of separation.

I know a lot of 10 year olds that play baseball - thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands all over the world that play - it's not rocket science either as James says. Throw the ball, hit the ball, catch the ball.

But the last time I checked there are only about 800 professional baseball players playing on the major league level. My guess is Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, Randy Johnson, etc... make a little bit more money than the 10 year old down the street, the high school neighbor, the college hopeful - all playing baseball.

Higher level of skill justifies higher level of compensation.

[TGCummings]

Well said, Sean!

James, you still haven't addressed the issue of meeting cost at $15/manhour in the lawn care industry, or what it is you actually do for a living. Obviously, you can't charge $15/hour, pay $10/hour to a helper, an additional $2/hour for benefits, $6/hour for equipment and think you're making money. Again, do the math.

BTW, in a recent industry magazine they reported the national average for lawn care services was $37/hour.

[parkwest]

Looks like jimbo2356 might be another psuedo-intellectual to be added to a person's ignore list.

James2563,

SHOW US THE NUMBERS.

[greenflag]

What a great idea! Maybe I can get some sort of tax break by hiring an ex-offender.

It is probably hard for them to get a job, & if they have experience.

Good help is hard to find......

:D