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DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-06-2009, 01:01 AM
Guys,

Moral dilemma here. If you could help out that would be great.

I have a set of townhomes very near my own home. I have mowed these townhomes for the past two years HOWEVER I got lowballed on the job this season, and a competitor in town now mows the lawn there.

Today, upon opening my garage door in the morning, I saw my competitor spraying the lawn with a lawn tractor/pull sprayer setup. Not sure if it was straight fert or herbicide, but most likely the latter as the lawn was getting fairly weedy and had not been touched to date. My wife and I drove out of town for some errands, and upon returning home a couple hours later, noticed my competitor was done spraying BUT the lawn had not been flagged for pest. appilcation. Big No, No.

Since I know his name, I also looked online to see if he was licensed to apply, and I could not find a license for this guy. Since he didn't flag the lawn, I am very much thinking he has no license to apply for hire.

I realize the right thing to do would be to call the state Dept of Ag, confirm he does/does not have a license, and turn him in. Otherwise, why do I spend money to become licensed and maintain my lic. when he cheats for nothing? My dilemma is this guy is part of a well known family in my small town - I don't want it getting around that I turned this guy in, I may lose business that way. (If I let the state know about a possible violation, does my name remain anonymous?). Please help guys, what should I do?

Thx

Grandview
09-06-2009, 07:59 AM
I would turn the guy in. Our state keeps the info confidential. I watched a guy for 3 years take customers from me. He was not certified. If you do not turn the guy in he will just keep doing it. Maybe you can do it anonymously and pretend to be one of the condo owners.

Ric
09-06-2009, 08:33 AM
DA

A picture is worth a thousand words, But from past experience turning some one in especially in a small town can bite you in the Butt. Many years ago I lost about 7 customers in a row because of turning in a Invoice from Illegal operator with the treatment listed. Amazing enough he got out of it and I ate crap. Never say Never But Never again will I turn in any one for any reason.

Now the Heck of it is. With all states hurting for Cash, Fines are now the new Tax. However State Employees are not being replaced and enforcement is short handed. Ag Inspectors have your name and address and not the time or man power to go after the Illegals. So who do you think is paying the Fines now??????? Anyone who told you life is fair, is lying.

a plus bob
09-06-2009, 08:33 AM
If I have to keep a license, have insurance,keep up my CCHs so should my competitors.His low ball price whould make him no money if he was legit.I call and report them even if they are mowing and spray round up so they dont have to trim,it only leads to spraying lawns.

Green Thumb
09-06-2009, 09:35 AM
I had a similar experience only I was spraying (OH) I'd been spraying for three years and was never told by anyone I needed a License. Then I meant my competitor ( Friendly meeting) and he mentioned to me if I had a license? I like doing things correctly and legal so I found out about it and within three months I passed the tests.
My competition could have turned me in although he really helped me out. In turn I chose not to go after any of his customers unless they come to me. Mutual Respect I guess. I guess it depends on who your dealing with?

FYS777
09-06-2009, 09:47 AM
that is a hard one , why don't you talk to the guy and ask him if he doe's, have one, this may be a stretch but if he is doing a good job of it, invite him to work under your license and get a percentage of what he does. that way you both win, or get creative, in this economy people will do work they are not supposed to, doesn't hurt to talk to them i wouldn't think, my 2 cent,

Falcon50EX
09-06-2009, 09:48 AM
Guys,

Moral dilemma here. If you could help out that would be great.

I have a set of townhomes very near my own home. I have mowed these townhomes for the past two years HOWEVER I got lowballed on the job this season, and a competitor in town now mows the lawn there.

Today, upon opening my garage door in the morning, I saw my competitor spraying the lawn with a lawn tractor/pull sprayer setup. Not sure if it was straight fert or herbicide, but most likely the latter as the lawn was getting fairly weedy and had not been touched to date. My wife and I drove out of town for some errands, and upon returning home a couple hours later, noticed my competitor was done spraying BUT the lawn had not been flagged for pest. appilcation. Big No, No.





Since I know his name, I also looked online to see if he was licensed to apply, and I could not find a license for this guy. Since he didn't flag the lawn, I am very much thinking he has no license to apply for hire.

I realize the right thing to do would be to call the state Dept of Ag, confirm he does/does not have a license, and turn him in. Otherwise, why do I spend money to become licensed and maintain my lic. when he cheats for nothing? My dilemma is this guy is part of a well known family in my small town - I don't want it getting around that I turned this guy in, I may lose business that way. (If I let the state know about a possible violation, does my name remain anonymous?). Please help guys, what should I do?

Thx

I hear what you are saying but I have been licensed since January and it still does not show up online. I have not had anyone ask me on a job but I do get looks and the guys from Lesco say people have asked. What is funny about the guys that asked are they two out of three are not licensed.

FYS777
09-06-2009, 09:50 AM
I had a similar experience only I was spraying (OH) I'd been spraying for three years and was never told by anyone I needed a License. Then I meant my competitor ( Friendly meeting) and he mentioned to me if I had a license? I like doing things correctly and legal so I found out about it and within three months I passed the tests.
My competition could have turned me in although he really helped me out. In turn I chose not to go after any of his customers unless they come to me. Mutual Respect I guess. I guess it depends on who your dealing with?

well put, we all have to work together in this,

Think Green
09-06-2009, 10:38 AM
Ric,
How true you are, and I see that your butt has been bitten by the same fading organization of cost cutting bureaucrats.

DA,
My State's Pland Board Organization doesn't keep my credentials free for the public to see on their website.............thank goodness, because my numbers will be out there for the picking. It isn't like anyone can get the information anyway.!! I don't display my class 4-5 numbers on my truck like the heat and air guys do or plumbers!! This is only asking for trouble. My State doesn't require that for reasons............I am sure!!
Arkansas has enough trouble of keeping our flyboys, some of whom couldn't fly a cropduster straight without a pint of Tequila in them from dumping Stam or Gly out of the tanks during the evening hours over the highways. Needless to say, I and many other Licensed LCo's are encouraged to call in on illegals. Just the other day, while eating lunch, at a large local grocery store a boy and a older man came across their parking lot with one of those pull behind sprayers equipped with boom and wand. They began to spray the sign areas and cracks of the store. The duo, then went around back and sprayed the fence lines and cracks. What do you do??? They probably went and bought a gallon of Killzall and said, "We will make some money!" When I worked for Cox Communications back some years ago, these cads knew I used to spray herbicides, and paid me----on the clock to apply round-up on their overstock grounds. I didn't mind, since it was easy to do!!!! Kept me out of the mess for a while. Anyway, I was illegal in the essence of the State's requirements, but it goes on!!!!
Now, I am back on the other side of the fence, doing this stuff legal and having to pay yearly fees, going to re-certification schools, paying for all that is worthy to pull a skid trailer around the city, and these ingrates are doing it under the blanket.
Did this competitor have any sign postings on his vehicle? Taking a photo of the next application may prove otherwise negligence, but who are you going to prove it to!!!
The inspector can document your findings, but this guy could have been applying fertilizer, which isn't illegal to do in Arkansas. You don't need a license to apply it--maybe they do in your state.

Here is where it bites you in the butt here!!! After turning in a couple of LCO's a few years ago, they got a notice from the state, had to attend a hearing in Little Rock and was fined a minisule amount. The hearing board told them of who it was that turned them in. It is public record to ask this question.!!??? It is not like we are calling in for America's Most Wanted and the calls are confidential!! The state's don't have to follow a regimine of secrecy!!!

Greenthumb,
It is great that your story turned out peacefully.
Around here, with all of Bubba's croanies doing illegal work, most of which are meth head addicts doing the driving and spraying, confrontations aren't dealt with on the civil level.
The owner's are somewhere else sitting in their truck, talking on the phone bringing in more business. One time was physical and the reprocussions of this type of anger isn't ratifyed by violence. It will cost you both in time, court fees, damages to equipment and vehicles...............you know what I mean??

Now, I will let dead dogs lie, and what goes around---comes around!!!!!!!
This is one time where you can say--in confidence that all "Dogs Will Have Their Day!!"

Things will catch up to whomever is illegally doing something!!!!-----

grassman177
09-06-2009, 10:52 AM
that is easy, turn anyone in as they most certainly are breaking a very important law, and really they could be quite dangerous about what they are doing. you do not have to tell the state so just dont tell anyone else and it will be fine

Think Green
09-06-2009, 11:57 AM
177,
In Arkansas, you contact the Arkansas State Plant Board--Pesticide Division and ask to speak to the Director in that Department. You Cant just say, "Hey-I saw so n' so spraying a lawn over here on Maple St. today!" Will you inspect them!? These guys want to know who you are and your numbers. If the person is operating illegally, then a letter goes out to that person once their address is aquired. We have a Code Enforcement Division that is a separate department of the City Police, and they inspect individuals of priviledge licenses. This usually stops any riff-raff from starting up anyway.
The problems lie with other likes of fireman, postman, retired meat cutters, can drive around with lowe's trailers and carry all this equipment and not have to have a permanent tag on their trailers. Who care's!!!!!
The red-tape to cut through isn't worth it anymore. It is easier to pull you over for not wearing a seat belt than getting an illegal off someone's lawn.!!!
That is all I was implying!!!! It isn't worth the effort anymore!!

EVM
09-06-2009, 12:23 PM
Don't be a snitch. Talk to the guy, ask him if he is licensed, and if he is not, educate him on why he should be. If he gives you a lot of BS and says no I won't get certified, then do whatever you fell necessary.

DLCS
09-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Phoning in a report without giving your name, will get no where. If it would go to court, your name will be given. Sounds to me like your just sore that you lost the account. I would let it go, not worth it. Besides, what are the odds that he is a member of lawnsite, your not anonymous anymore?

MileHigh
09-06-2009, 05:32 PM
mind your own biz.

don't worry about that guy.

grandview (2006)
09-06-2009, 05:40 PM
Turn him in. In NY we pay a lot for the classes and test and license and insurance. I have know problem with doing that. Some things I let slide I'm not a lawn Nazi ! Call and see if you can file a complaint without your name on it.

DLCS
09-06-2009, 06:34 PM
Turn him in. In NY we pay a lot for the classes and test and license and insurance. I have know problem with doing that. Some things I let slide I'm not a lawn Nazi ! Call and see if you can file a complaint without your name on it.



Make it a credible complaint and give your name. If you can't put your name to it for fear of retaliation, then don't complain.

tremor
09-06-2009, 06:52 PM
CT has trade associations that will sign the written complaint. TURN THE BUM IN.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-06-2009, 07:51 PM
I am surprised, this thread has been about 50/50 turn him in/not turn him in.
I am still not comfortable on what to do with this guy. For the couple guys that say I am bitter I lost this mowing job to this guy, you are a little right. However, I was not licensed to spray this property LAST season and subbed the work out to another reputable applicator. Now, this season, this guy just goes out and sprays without a lic. and makes money off the job. I just can't see how I can let that go - then why do I bother getting a lic. or renewing for next season?

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 08:07 PM
Since when is fighting to uphold laws in your state a BAD thing?

Nail his balls to the wall (in a proper, civic manner, of course)...

dKoester
09-06-2009, 08:32 PM
Could be Organics.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-06-2009, 08:40 PM
Could be Organics.

Possible but not likely. I would classify this guy as a lawn boy. As I am making my rounds around town mowing each week, his equipment is sitting at a business, parked. Probably has a couple jobs at best. A guy like this would probably know little about organics.

jfoxtrot9
09-06-2009, 08:52 PM
If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Romans 12:18-19

So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil,
from the Almighty to do wrong.

He repays a man for what he has done;
he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.

Job 34:10-11

ted putnam
09-06-2009, 09:52 PM
If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Romans 12:18-19

So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil,
from the Almighty to do wrong.

He repays a man for what he has done;
he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.

Job 34:10-11

Did you ever think that God may have had DA pop open his garage door at just the right time and see that guy spraying? That this may be the way God is repaying the man for what he has done and bringing upon him what his conduct deserves. DA may just be like that Sniper in the movie Saving Private Ryan, an "Instrument of God". Food for thought...

FYS777
09-06-2009, 09:53 PM
If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Romans 12:18-19

So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil,
from the Almighty to do wrong.

He repays a man for what he has done;
he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.

Job 34:10-11

AMEN and AMEN

dKoester
09-06-2009, 10:04 PM
Possible but not likely. I would classify this guy as a lawn boy. As I am making my rounds around town mowing each week, his equipment is sitting at a business, parked. Probably has a couple jobs at best. A guy like this would probably know little about organics.

Agreed. I was taught if you are going to pick a profession learn all you can about it, Laws included. The community around this guy is at risk.

FYS777
09-06-2009, 10:10 PM
Did you ever think that God may have had DA pop open his garage door at just the right time and see that guy spraying? That this may be the way God is repaying the man for what he has done and bringing upon him what his conduct deserves. DA may just be like that Sniper in the movie Saving Private Ryan, an "Instrument of God". Food for thought...

its not for us to carry out Gods judgment. being a believer myself, like i said i would have talked with them to see where they are at, and if they really don;t know the rules, then fill them in, if they do know the rules, both ways then it is upon them to make the choice and its off your shoulders. then what they choose will determine there fate. one way or another, and refrain from useing fiction

DLCS
09-06-2009, 10:39 PM
By all means turn the guy in but give your own name. If you think that you are a 100% rightous, then putting your name to it should not be an issue. I can understand the flustrations of paying for proper licensing and seeing someone bypassing them making money. But we are not alone in this field with business onwers bypassing laws and regulations. Alot of professions have this same problem, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, hair dressers, etc. Whenever i have filed anysort of complaint I include my name but I make sure that I'm 100% right.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 10:49 PM
its not for us to carry out Gods judgment. being a believer myself, like i said i would have talked with them to see where they are at, and if they really don;t know the rules, then fill them in, if they do know the rules, both ways then it is upon them to make the choice and its off your shoulders. then what they choose will determine there fate. one way or another, and refrain from useing fiction

Oh puh-leaze. A man potentially breaking a civil law isn't solely in the realm of heavenly judgment.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. (Including comeuppance.)

DA isn't convicting this guy - but he's hoping to ensure that if the guy is breaking laws, that he reaps the rewards of his labor.

FYS777
09-06-2009, 10:50 PM
By all means turn the guy in but give your own name. If you think that you are a 100% rightous, then putting your name to it should not be an issue. I can understand the flustrations of paying for proper licensing and seeing someone bypassing them making money. But we are not alone in this field with business onwers bypassing laws and regulations. Alot of professions have this same problem, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, hair dressers, etc. Whenever i have filed anysort of complaint I include my name but I make sure that I'm 100% right.

thats why he needs to talk with him to make sure he is 100% right, so i say don,t until you are 100% knowing!!!!

FYS777
09-06-2009, 10:52 PM
Oh puh-leaze. A man potentially breaking a civil law isn't solely in the realm of heavenly judgment.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. (Including comeuppance.)

DA isn't convicting this guy - but he's hoping to ensure that if the guy is breaking laws, that he reaps the rewards of his labor.

so do you know every law and regulation 100%?? i would bet not.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 10:52 PM
thats why he needs to talk with him to make sure he is 100% right, so i say don,t until you are 100% knowing!!!!

Again, there are people employed and paid to INSPECT! So let THEM do the job, instead of playing sleuth.

If you see a home break-in, do you go chat it up with 'em first before calling the cops? When you see a mugging, do you go and confirm it's not just a gag or a hazing stunt before dialing 911? Geez.

ted putnam
09-06-2009, 10:53 PM
I suppose this is where everyone's definition of vengeance comes up for discussion. My definition of vengeance in DA's case would be for him to somehow sabotage this guy's application or equipment to "get back" at him. Him turning the guy in to the proper authorities in my mind constitutes "police work". He would merely be an extension of the Ag depts eyes and ears. A way of insuring that everyone plays by the same rules and regulations. Are you satisfied to lose a football game because the opposing team used an illegal tactic(whether they knew it or not)and the referee didn't see it or do you inform the referee and let them revue it and levee the proper penalty whatever that might be?? More food for thought...

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 10:54 PM
so do you know every law and regulation 100%?? i would bet not.

Exactly my point. Make the call and let the authorities handle it!

FYS777
09-06-2009, 10:55 PM
Again, there are people employed and paid to INSPECT! So let THEM do the job, instead of playing sleuth.

If you see a home break-in, do you go chat it up with 'em first before calling the cops? When you see a mugging, do you go and confirm it's not just a gag or a hazing stunt before dialing 911? Geez.

that does not even compare to this,

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 10:56 PM
thats why he needs to talk with him to make sure he is 100% right, so i say don,t until you are 100% knowing!!!!

A perp is "innocent until proven guilty", right? Oh, but wait a sec. He was apprehended and arrested first, now wasn't he? Doesn't mean he did it. But that's the role the law enforcement side plays. Some thing for the Ag Extension that oversees us LCO's.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 10:57 PM
that does not even compare to this,

Oh, so now you're going to qualify which laws are important and which are not?

FYS777
09-06-2009, 11:00 PM
I guess scooby was right referring to guys like you all. when he said to the hot dog, it's a dog it dog world!!

FYS777
09-06-2009, 11:03 PM
I guess one could tell you guys, to those that have done no wrong cast the first stone.

jfoxtrot9
09-06-2009, 11:09 PM
Did you ever think that God may have had DA pop open his garage door at just the right time and see that guy spraying? That this may be the way God is repaying the man for what he has done and bringing upon him what his conduct deserves. DA may just be like that Sniper in the movie Saving Private Ryan, an "Instrument of God". Food for thought...

An absolute possibility.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:10 PM
I guess scooby was right referring to guys like you all. when he said to the hot dog, it's a dog it dog world!!

"guys like us all"? Wow, I thought you were a believer. With what judgment ye judge...

As well, I find it curious that you would argue that God would wish us to refrain from sustaining and upholding the law, considering Christ taught:

"And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." (Judea was controlled by Rome. One of the laws of the land was that a Roman soldier had the right to compel any man to carry his gear for a mile. This was law. So when Christ spoke these words, He was teaching that we are to honor the laws of the land.)

Also curious, is that Christ insisted John Baptize Him, in spite of being perfect. Why? Because He was honoring the Law of God perfectly through obedience to an ordinance not actually required to cleanse His untarnished garments.

Christ did not teach that we trivialize and subvert the law.

ted putnam
09-06-2009, 11:11 PM
I guess scooby was right referring to guys like you all. when he said to the hot dog, it's a dog it dog world!!

There's a big difference between "Turning the other Cheek " and "Turning a Blind Eye", especially when it comes to the well being of others...both the residents where this "illegal" application was made and the family DA is trying to support(legally). If that is Dog eat Dog then so be it...

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:13 PM
I guess one could tell you guys, to those that have done no wrong cast the first stone.

For the last time, we're not condemning him! We're empowering officials of the state to determine whether or not this individual is accountable for CRIMES perpetrated (knowingly or not).

jfoxtrot9
09-06-2009, 11:19 PM
As some have already recommended.

First things first...

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. (Matt 18:15)

From here, THEN consider your next step.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:20 PM
As some have already recommended.

First things first...

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. (Matt 18:15)

From here, THEN consider your next step.

Ah, but here's the rub: he's sinning against the State.

FYS777
09-06-2009, 11:25 PM
"guys like us all"? Wow, I thought you were a believer. With what judgment ye judge...

As well, I find it curious that you would argue that God would wish us to refrain from sustaining and upholding the law, considering Christ taught:

"And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." (Judea was controlled by Rome. One of the laws of the land was that a Roman soldier had the right to compel any man to carry his gear for a mile. This was law. So when Christ spoke these words, He was teaching that we are to honor the laws of the land.)

Also curious, is that Christ insisted John Baptize Him, in spite of being perfect. Why? Because He was honoring the Law of God perfectly through obedience to an ordinance not actually required to cleanse His untarnished garments.

Christ did not teach that we trivialize and subvert the law.

you are a piece of art, so what did i judge about you all that you have no grace,,,, that you are afraid to talk to some one about what they are doing first.

and like i said not every one knows every law not even you, i guess you have no grace,

jfoxtrot9
09-06-2009, 11:28 PM
Ah, but here's the rub: he's sinning against the State.

Technically correct, but the principle could still apply.

I like to always try and give a man the benefit of the doubt. After all, you just may "win yourself a brother."

I suppose DA has a decision to make.

FYS777
09-06-2009, 11:29 PM
There's a big difference between "Turning the other Cheek " and "Turning a Blind Eye", especially when it comes to the well being of others...both the residents where this "illegal" application was made and the family DA is trying to support(legally). If that is Dog eat Dog then so be it...

If you go and talk with him first you are neither turning a cheek or a blind i. and he doesn't know for sure if he is illegal, didn't you read that in earlier post.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:30 PM
you are a piece of art, so what did i judge about you all that you have no grace,,,, that you are afraid to talk to some one about what they are doing first.

and like i said not every one knows every law not even you, i guess you have no grace,

Art, eh? You judged "guys like [us] all" when you condemned us with your "dog it dog" vitriol.

It's not a matter of being afraid. It's a matter of DA wasting his time to track someone down to have a tender little heart to heart. The state pays people our tax dollars to do that job.

And, as a matter of fact, I am PERFECTLY aware of all laws pertaining to my business, so as not to violate them. That's something anyone with an IQ greater than their shoe size would do.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:33 PM
Technically correct, but the principle could still apply.

I like to always try and give a man the benefit of the doubt. After all, you just may "win yourself a brother."

I suppose DA has a decision to make.

Don't get me wrong - I get what you're saying. I just completely disagree with the flawed reasoning that: through this logic, turning in a potential violator of the law is somehow sinful or wrong. It's not.

There is NO way that DA turning in a possible criminal (minor as the law may be) to the proper authorities is somehow wrong, wicked, inappropriate, or condemned by God.

FYS777
09-06-2009, 11:34 PM
Art, eh? You judged "guys like [us] all" when you condemned us with your "dog it dog" vitriol.

It's not a matter of being afraid. It's a matter of DA wasting his time to track someone down to have a tender little heart to heart. The state pays people our tax dollars to do that job.

And, as a matter of fact, I am PERFECTLY aware of all laws pertaining to my business, so as not to violate them. That's something anyone with an IQ greater than their shoe size would do.

there you go, no one is perfect, and you just judged my IQ, whoops on you.:laugh:

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:35 PM
there you go, no one is perfect, and you just judged my IQ, whoops on you.:laugh:

Only if you're confessing to not bothering to learn the laws under which you conduct business. :waving:

ted putnam
09-06-2009, 11:37 PM
you are a piece of art, so what did i judge about you all that you have no grace,,,, that you are afraid to talk to some one about what they are doing first.

and like i said not every one knows every law not even you, i guess you have no grace,

Oh Boy!, you opened "Pandora's Box" with that one. Prepare yourself for a Whoopass Attack!:laugh:

FYS777
09-06-2009, 11:38 PM
Don't get me wrong - I get what you're saying. I just completely disagree with the flawed reasoning that: through this logic, turning in a potential violator of the law is somehow sinful or wrong. It's not.

There is NO way that DA turning in a possible criminal (minor as the law may be) to the proper authorities is somehow wrong, wicked, inappropriate, or condemned by God.

nobody said it was sinful or wrong to turn him in, we just said we would do it different then you, I'm glad you used potential that is the key word.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:41 PM
there you go, no one is perfect, and you just judged my IQ, whoops on you.:laugh:


Further, John 7 teaches to "judge righteous judgment".

Is it unrighteous of me to declare that someone who violates the law through willful negligence (by not doing their due diligence) is in need of a visit from a friendly authority figure to set them on the business strait and narrow?

Should we let it slide that this guy might be pumping grandpa's left over chlordane all over the neighbor's yard at 5g/M ???

Please just concede that parroting a well-intentioned but severely misplaced WWJD on this thread was a "whoops" on your part and boy out gracefully.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:41 PM
Oh Boy!, you opened "Pandora's Box" with that one. Prepare yourself for a Whoopass Attack!:laugh:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:42 PM
nobody said it was sinful or wrong to turn him in, we just said we would do it different then you, I'm glad you used potential that is the key word.

I've made that same comment in several different forms in multiple posts. Not sure how you missed it. Maybe your halo was obscuring your vision...

ted putnam
09-06-2009, 11:43 PM
there you go, no one is perfect, and you just judged my IQ, whoops on you.:laugh:

Unless you are not aware of the laws that pertain to the business you are in, I don't think he was judging you. He was saying people in general should be aware of the laws that pertain to their particular business. If they aren't, they aren't very smart. Their livlihood depends on it.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-06-2009, 11:53 PM
nobody said it was sinful or wrong to turn him in...

That's sooooo weird, because earlier in this thread you wrote "its not for us to carry out Gods judgment" - which directly implies that DA making a phone call to the authorities would be him carrying out God's judgment...

FYS777
09-06-2009, 11:55 PM
Further, John 7 teaches to "judge righteous judgment".

Is it unrighteous of me to declare that someone who violates the law through willful negligence (by not doing their due diligence) is in need of a visit from a friendly authority figure to set them on the business strait and narrow?

Should we let it slide that this guy might be pumping grandpa's left over chlordane all over the neighbor's yard at 5g/M ???

Please just concede that parroting a well-intentioned but severely misplaced WWJD on this thread was a "whoops" on your part and boy out gracefully.

first it starts not by me, in post 22 and 23, and if you have the right to say what you wont i can say what i wont, but it sounds like it your way or no way, if you go by the laws you may wont to turn yourself in for speeding, even if you go 1 or 2 miles an hour over the speed limit, you know a law is a law.

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-07-2009, 12:02 AM
first it starts not by me, in post 22 and 23, and if you have the right to say what you wont i can say what i wont, but it sounds like it your way or no way, if you go by the laws you may wont to turn yourself in for speeding, even if you go 1 or 2 miles an hour over the speed limit, you know a law is a law.

Yikes, is that the best you've got? You really need to join the debate team or something, because you're sinking your own battleship here.

First off, the PROPER corollary would be someone ELSE calling me in for speeding. And guess what: people make those types of phone calls all the time. In fact, you have the legal authority to make a citizen's arrest, don't you?

It's not my way or no way. Quit mincing words. My point is that you're trying to condemn DA if he chooses to honor the laws of the land - and you're wrong. And hiding behind the banner of "I'm a christian, and therefore my logic is irrefutable - even though I don't actually know what I'm talking about" is reprehensible.

And finally, YES, A LAW IS A LAW!!!!! IT WORKS WITH PHYSICS, IT WORKS FOR GOD, AND IT WORKS IN THE USA. Do you really not believe that God is a God of justice? Why did Christ atone for our sins, if this were not so?

EVM
09-07-2009, 12:05 AM
Don't be a snitch, educate the guy.

ted putnam
09-07-2009, 12:25 AM
So when you meet the guy and you strike up a conversation and eventually say, "You know...You're supposed to be licensed to make applications." and he says, "Yea yea, they tax the heck out of me as it is. Screw em, I'm trying to make a living!" Is that where it becomes all right to be a snitch or carry out God's judgement or does he need to be a little more uncaring than that?? C'mon guys! It's the State Inspectors job to educate, reprimand and if necessary fine potentially illegal applicators.:hammerhead:

FYS777
09-07-2009, 12:25 AM
Yikes, is that the best you've got? You really need to join the debate team or something, because you're sinking your own battleship here.

First off, the PROPER corollary would be someone ELSE calling me in for speeding. And guess what: people make those types of phone calls all the time. In fact, you have the legal authority to make a citizen's arrest, don't you?

It's not my way or no way. Quit mincing words. My point is that you're trying to condemn DA if he chooses to honor the laws of the land - and you're wrong. And hiding behind the banner of "I'm a christian, and therefore my logic is irrefutable - even though I don't actually know what I'm talking about" is reprehensible.

And finally, YES, A LAW IS A LAW!!!!! IT WORKS WITH PHYSICS, IT WORKS FOR GOD, AND IT WORKS IN THE USA. Do you really not believe that God is a God of justice? Why did Christ atone for our sins, if this were not so?

you are funny! here you say you know the law and yet you brake it by speeding, seems like Jesus said that to the Pharisee,( know it but don't follow it )

i think you need to reread the post, I think you are being self righteous in your assumptions about following the laws to a T, Be honest when you started your buis, did you know every law to a T, and have all remembered completally, come on get real, of course you may not admitt it,

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-07-2009, 02:18 AM
you are funny! here you say you know the law and yet you brake it by speeding, seems like Jesus said that to the Pharisee,( know it but don't follow it )

Again, your complete lack of cognitive capacity is showing. First, learn to spell. Second, learn to make a real argument. When did I say I speed? Please show me where. Apparently typing isn't your only deficiency. And if you've dug the dictionary enough to be able to interpret my plain and simple english, would you please tell me what point you're even trying to make? (Because you always seem to start a new subject when you can't properly refute the points I make...)

i think you need to reread the post, I think you are being self righteous in your assumptions about following the laws to a T, Be honest when you started your buis, did you know every law to a T, and have all remembered completally, come on get real, of course you may not admitt it,

Reread the post? Are you kidding? I have had to quote you to yourself and you STILL can't form a coherent thought! Did I know the laws when I started this biz? You bet your a$$ I did! I dun gon up to that ther collidg and lernt me sum good stuff from them fancee geewhiz professirs.

Buddy, don't look now, but your ignorance is showing! That's like an attorney saying, "what? You mean I need a license to practice law?" Or a doctor saying, "laws? What do you mean? I borrowed mom's first aid kit and opened a clinic!"

Please, please, PLEASE stop your continual lowering of the bar for this industry.

As for the self-righteous accusation: that's just too rich, seeing as how that's what I've been accusing you of since your first embarrassingly ignorant post.

The more you talk, the deeper hole you're putting yourself in. Please go back and finish high school, give mom her mower back, and do something safe like flippin' burgers. There aren't too many laws you'll have to take the time to inconvenience yourself with learning as Assistant Weekend Afternoon Shift Manager at BK.

FYS777
09-07-2009, 02:30 AM
like i thought a lot of hot air with no substance.

FYS777
09-07-2009, 03:16 AM
Guys,

Moral dilemma here. If you could help out that would be great.

I have a set of townhomes very near my own home. I have mowed these townhomes for the past two years HOWEVER I got lowballed on the job this season, and a competitor in town now mows the lawn there.

Today, upon opening my garage door in the morning, I saw my competitor spraying the lawn with a lawn tractor/pull sprayer setup. Not sure if it was straight fert or herbicide, but most likely the latter as the lawn was getting fairly weedy and had not been touched to date. My wife and I drove out of town for some errands, and upon returning home a couple hours later, noticed my competitor was done spraying BUT the lawn had not been flagged for pest. appilcation. Big No, No.

Since I know his name, I also looked online to see if he was licensed to apply, and I could not find a license for this guy. Since he didn't flag the lawn, I am very much thinking he has no license to apply for hire.

I realize the right thing to do would be to call the state Dept of Ag, confirm he does/does not have a license, and turn him in. Otherwise, why do I spend money to become licensed and maintain my lic. when he cheats for nothing? My dilemma is this guy is part of a well known family in my small town - I don't want it getting around that I turned this guy in, I may lose business that way. (If I let the state know about a possible violation, does my name remain anonymous?). Please help guys, what should I do?

Thx

I do have a ??? what are the reg's in your state, or city. some states say that you don't need an applicators license to spray general use product, like what you can buy at home depot. as long as it's for residential and not commercial. I do know of guys that have sprayed here and not put flags out, but instead notified each unit with notices.

grandview (2006)
09-07-2009, 04:57 AM
I do have a ??? what are the reg's in your state, or city. some states say that you don't need an applicators license to spray general use product, like what you can buy at home depot. as long as it's for residential and not commercial. I do know of guys that have sprayed here and not put flags out, but instead notified each unit with notices.

That's some of the problem with pesticides. Every state is different. Here you must post everything you do. If it's a apartment complex you can notify the manager and they send notices to each apart.Also if your getting paid to do this service you better have a license even if you buy it at HD.

spray_man
09-07-2009, 11:18 AM
If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.

Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Romans 12:18-19

So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil,
from the Almighty to do wrong.

He repays a man for what he has done;
he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.

Job 34:10-11

DA Quality, Listen to this man. Another way to say this, is "KARMA". Any action you take against another, will come back to you ten fold. Good action, good come back. Bad action . . . . . .

DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-07-2009, 11:26 AM
Wow - what a lot of conversation.

I do not plan to call this guy to chat. That is one of the great things about this business, you can put your blinders on and work hard, and really not have to deal at all with your competition directly (though you may have to deal with the ramifications of their work:(

a plus bob
09-07-2009, 11:42 AM
You have to look out for your self! Here in Indiana we only have 6 inspectors for the whole state if you don't let them know they may never catch him.As far as confronting him I used to talk to guys mowing and spraying they always get defensive and mouth off about They aren't doing any thing wrong.I don't charge for spraying just mowing:hammerhead: If your neighbor is making meth would you talk to him and tell him its illegal or call the proper authorities and let them handle it ?

DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-07-2009, 12:17 PM
You have to look out for your self! Here in Indiana we only have 6 inspectors for the whole state if you don't let them know they may never catch him.As far as confronting him I used to talk to guys mowing and spraying they always get defensive and mouth off about They aren't doing any thing wrong.I don't charge for spraying just mowing:hammerhead: If your neighbor is making meth would you talk to him and tell him its illegal or call the proper authorities and let them handle it ?

Good point.

EVM
09-07-2009, 03:51 PM
Then you get the comparisons of real crime and real criminals compared to a guy that might be doing a weed and feed with out a license, LOL!

If a guy, license or not, is dumping chemicals or what ever. What difference does it make?

turf hokie
09-07-2009, 04:39 PM
If a guy, license or not, is dumping chemicals or what ever. What difference does it make?

What difference does it make? are you f-ing kidding me?

This thread says alot about what is wrong with our industry.

ted putnam
09-07-2009, 05:32 PM
What difference does it make? are you f-ing kidding me?

This thread says alot about what is wrong with our industry.

As someone said earlier...AMEN!

phasthound
09-07-2009, 06:19 PM
Wow, I'm stunned by how this conversation has proceeded.

DA, IMHO ask the guy what he was applying. If he says fert only and you trust his word, let it be. Otherwise, you have the moral obligation to contact the appropriate authorities to investigate.

If you feel you cannot speak with the applicator, contact the appropriate authorities and it's up to them to conduct the proper investigation. If the applicator is doing a legal application, everything is OK. If not, he needs to know how to comply with Federal & State laws.

In the 30 years that I have been licensed to apply pesticides, I have been inspected several times. Each time, I have learned something about how to better comply with the law and have never been fined.

Professional pesticide applications are regulated for good reasons, if applied incorrectly, people and the environment may get hurt. Hopefully some day the same training professionals are required to go through will be required for the general public.

FYS777
09-07-2009, 07:23 PM
Wow, I'm stunned by how this conversation has proceeded.

DA, IMHO ask the guy what he was applying. If he says fert only and you trust his word, let it be. Otherwise, you have the moral obligation to contact the appropriate authorities to investigate.

If you feel you cannot speak with the applicator, contact the appropriate authorities and it's up to them to conduct the proper investigation. If the applicator is doing a legal application, everything is OK. If not, he needs to know how to comply with Federal & State laws.

In the 30 years that I have been licensed to apply pesticides, I have been inspected several times. Each time, I have learned something about how to better comply with the law and have never been fined.

Professional pesticide applications are regulated for good reasons, if applied incorrectly, people and the environment may get hurt. Hopefully some day the same training professionals are required to go through will be required for the general public.

I agree,

ask and find out.
if not able to, do what one feels you need to do.

EVM
09-07-2009, 08:57 PM
What difference does it make? are you f-ing kidding me?

This thread says alot about what is wrong with our industry.

What man? What did you not read? Can you read? Can you comprehend? Do you understand what the word DUMP means?

What is wrong with the industry anyway? Are you saying illegal applicators are ruining the industry? Or the stupid permit applicators who work for large companies that don't know what the hell they are doing?

DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-07-2009, 10:36 PM
Lets not let this get to bad blood between us, ok.....it isn't worth that.

FYI - you need a fert lic. to even apply straight fert here in MN. He does not have that, nor a pest appl. lic. I am going to confirm that tomorrow. Also, he did not flag, which is required.

FYS777
09-07-2009, 10:48 PM
Lets not let this get to bad blood between us, ok.....it isn't worth that.

FYI - you need a fert lic. to even apply straight fert here in MN. He does not have that, nor a pest appl. lic. I am going to confirm that tomorrow. Also, he did not flag, which is required.

Good, then you have the information you need without jumping into it without knowing,

turf hokie
09-08-2009, 06:22 AM
What man? What did you not read? Can you read? Can you comprehend? Do you understand what the word DUMP means?

What is wrong with the industry anyway? Are you saying illegal applicators are ruining the industry? Or the stupid permit applicators who work for large companies that don't know what the hell they are doing?

Whatever.....

Heidi J.
09-08-2009, 07:14 AM
Then you get the comparisons of real crime and real criminals compared to a guy that might be doing a weed and feed with out a license, LOL!

If a guy, license or not, is dumping chemicals or what ever. What difference does it make?

Your joking right?? :nono:

mngrassguy
09-08-2009, 11:10 PM
Good thread DA. I'm sure you know this but others may not, Organic needs a fert license just like synthetic ferts here. Also, The Ag's web site is always up to date. If he's not on it, he's not licensed.

If you can talk to the guy, It will go 1 of 2 ways. He will either listen to you or he will call you a prick behind your back and keep doing what he's doing. Most likely, the later will apply and he will then know who turned him in.

If you turn him in, the Dept of Ag will not fine him or put him in jail for a first offense. They will educate him on the proper way of doing what we do. This is what you and I pay them to do.

Do the right thing and call it in. If your afraid, pm me the info and i'll turn it in.:waving:

ted putnam
09-08-2009, 11:40 PM
Good post mngrassguy! Excellent advice and a little help if needed for DA to do the RIGHT thing. :clapping:

DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-09-2009, 12:51 AM
Good thread DA. I'm sure you know this but others may not, Organic needs a fert license just like synthetic ferts here. Also, The Ag's web site is always up to date. If he's not on it, he's not licensed.

If you can talk to the guy, It will go 1 of 2 ways. He will either listen to you or he will call you a prick behind your back and keep doing what he's doing. Most likely, the later will apply and he will then know who turned him in.

If you turn him in, the Dept of Ag will not fine him or put him in jail for a first offense. They will educate him on the proper way of doing what we do. This is what you and I pay them to do.

Do the right thing and call it in. If your afraid, pm me the info and i'll turn it in.:waving:

MN - great of you to add to this thread, being from Minny and all. Thanks for the update on the Dept of Ag website - so to confirm, he is NOT licensed as he is nowhere to be found on the website.

I actually spoke with one of the residents of the townhomes today where my competitor applied the chemicals. I advised her that he sprayed 'something' on Saturday, is not licensed, and failed to flag the property. She agreed with me, said they came out of the house on Saturday, smelled something foul, but could not tell what it was because there was no flagging done. She did say this guy called beforehand to say he would be spraying sometime. Sorry buddy, does not cut the mustard. I told this gal if she wants to call this in, fine with me. She may do that, in fact likely that she will. That way, I can keep my name out of it.

I also spoke with the townhome assn. President (who happens to be buddy-buddy with my competitor in the business world here). I told him that I observed this illegal activity, and that if I see any more of that crap, I am calling it in. I think it will be interesting to let this ride and make my competitor nervous a little, but he is on his last strike with me.

I really feel I took the high road here, and was not a snitch.

americanlawn
09-09-2009, 08:42 PM
After following this post since it started, it looked like DA Quality needed to hire an attorney before he did anything........that's sad.............especially in America.

I have never reported anybody, but this situation had too many bad ingredients in the mix, so I agree with DA Quality. No flags, no license, bad smell - most likely weed control (unless he was spraying liquid chicken manure), many residents, probably kids & pets too.

I know DA personally -- met him, and I assure all he is top notch and he believes in a higher power. Bottom line: he's as good as it gets. He would not have posted this thread unless it bothered him greatly on a personal level cuz he has a kind heart.

I sent him a PM offering my help, but he turned it down -- said it was his responsibility -- that's the kind of guy he is.

Turns out DA Q was right on the money (no surprise to me cuz he's a trusted friend). :usflag:

grandview (2006)
09-09-2009, 08:50 PM
A little off here but, today while gassing up one guy was cutting and the other was spraying roundup on the weeds in the bed .I stopped and told him the DEC is cracking down on guys without licenses he said he knows he was fined last year for doing the same thing. Dumb ass I thought and drove away.

DLCS
09-09-2009, 09:37 PM
.I stopped and told him the DEC is cracking down on guys without licenses he said he knows he was fined last year for doing the same thing. Dumb ass I thought and drove away.


Really... They must not have gave a heavy enough fine. I would imagine the next fine would be a doosy. So, did you turn him in? You should start a thread on it and see if you can beat DA's thread for posts.:weightlifter:

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-09-2009, 11:47 PM
...You should start a thread on it and see if you can beat DA's thread for posts.:weightlifter:

...Just get me riled up... :laugh:

Craig3
09-11-2009, 01:05 AM
that is a hard one , why don't you talk to the guy and ask him if he doe's, have one, this may be a stretch but if he is doing a good job of it, invite him to work under your license and get a percentage of what he does. that way you both win, or get creative, in this economy people will do work they are not supposed to, doesn't hurt to talk to them i wouldn't think, my 2 cent,

And put the liability spin on the whole issue. Not only does that give you some leverage, but what if someone really did have some reaction b/c he didnt mark it?
(I dont spray so I'm not sure what, if anything, could/would happen)

LushGreenLawn
09-11-2009, 04:56 PM
I do have a ??? what are the reg's in your state, or city. some states say that you don't need an applicators license to spray general use product, like what you can buy at home depot. as long as it's for residential and not commercial. I do know of guys that have sprayed here and not put flags out, but instead notified each unit with notices.

This information could not be further from the truth. FEDERAL regulations specify that any pesticide use on a property that is not your own requires a license. The states have the right to make laws more strict (for example, the federal government does not require a sign to be posted when an application is made, but some states do).

In the OP's state, lawn signs are required, a notice on the door is not sufficient.


I would turn him in. I have turned in several illegal applicators, even a couple who brag about it on lawnsite that posted their business names. The AG departments even kept me updated as to how things were going, what fines were paid, ect. One guy got a 20K fine.

phasthound
09-11-2009, 06:24 PM
This information could not be further from the truth. FEDERAL regulations specify that any pesticide use on a property that is not your own requires a license. The states have the right to make laws more strict (for example, the federal government does not require a sign to be posted when an application is made, but some states do).

In the OP's state, lawn signs are required, a notice on the door is not sufficient.


I would turn him in. I have turned in several illegal applicators, even a couple who brag about it on lawnsite that posted their business names. The AG departments even kept me updated as to how things were going, what fines were paid, ect. One guy got a 20K fine.

LushGreenLawn,

My hat's off to you for doing the right thing. :clapping:

Not only did you clear up someone's misunderstanding of pesticide application laws, but you did your part to make sure they are being enforced.

Bravo!

FYS777
09-11-2009, 06:28 PM
This information could not be further from the truth. FEDERAL regulations specify that any pesticide use on a property that is not your own requires a license. The states have the right to make laws more strict (for example, the federal government does not require a sign to be posted when an application is made, but some states do).

In the OP's state, lawn signs are required, a notice on the door is not sufficient.


I would turn him in. I have turned in several illegal applicators, even a couple who brag about it on lawnsite that posted their business names. The AG departments even kept me updated as to how things were going, what fines were paid, ect. One guy got a 20K fine.

I don't think its true that states make it more strict. here read this..

here are the reg's.. can you see my point?????

Do I need a license?
Licensing is needed when:

1. buying or applying restricted-use pesticides
2. applying pesticides (including herbicides) to someone else's property
3. applying pesticides as a public employee while using a fuel or electric-powered sprayer or spreader
4. giving advice on how to use a restricted-use pesticide or which restricted-use pesticide will work best.

Llicensing is NOT needed when:

1. appliying a pesticide on a person's owned or leased property (no restricted-use pesticide applications)
2. applying a pesticide on property owned or leased by an employer while acting as an employee (no restricted-use pesticide applications)
3. giving advice on general-use pesticides
4. performing structural pest inspections for individuals buying or selling a home (see special situations page)
5. applying a pesticide while doing lawn maintenance if all of the following are true:

* Applications are to small residential lawns or gardens only - no applications to commercial properties.
* Not using restricted-use pesticides.
* Not using fuel or electric-powered sprayers or spreaders.
* The use of pesticides is not stated in advertisements, contracts or invoice.


this is from the Oregon reg's... the key words restricted use

LushGreenLawn
09-11-2009, 11:03 PM
I don't think its true that states make it more strict. here read this..

here are the reg's.. can you see my point?????

Do I need a license?
Licensing is needed when:

1. buying or applying restricted-use pesticides
2. applying pesticides (including herbicides) to someone else's property
3. applying pesticides as a public employee while using a fuel or electric-powered sprayer or spreader
4. giving advice on how to use a restricted-use pesticide or which restricted-use pesticide will work best.

Llicensing is NOT needed when:

1. appliying a pesticide on a person's owned or leased property (no restricted-use pesticide applications)
2. applying a pesticide on property owned or leased by an employer while acting as an employee (no restricted-use pesticide applications)
3. giving advice on general-use pesticides
4. performing structural pest inspections for individuals buying or selling a home (see special situations page)
5. applying a pesticide while doing lawn maintenance if all of the following are true:

* Applications are to small residential lawns or gardens only - no applications to commercial properties.
* Not using restricted-use pesticides.
* Not using fuel or electric-powered sprayers or spreaders.
* The use of pesticides is not stated in advertisements, contracts or invoice.


this is from the Oregon reg's... the key words restricted use

that information is again, incorrect. If you would have taken the test, you would have been tested on FIFRA (the specific FEDERAL laws that deal with pesticide use) I am not a lawyer, but for whatever reason am interested in how the law works, especially as it relates to the field I am in. I have studied these specific laws in detail, and know what I am talking about.

FYS777
09-11-2009, 11:12 PM
that information is again, incorrect. If you would have taken the test, you would have been tested on FIFRA (the specific FEDERAL laws that deal with pesticide use) I am not a lawyer, but for whatever reason am interested in how the law works, especially as it relates to the field I am in. I have studied these specific laws in detail, and know what I am talking about.

well then, post them, then why do these reg from OR. state such a thing if what you say is true???

phasthound
09-11-2009, 11:32 PM
well then, post them, then why do these reg from OR. state such a thing if what you say is true???

It's not up to him to prove the law to you. Call the appropriate state agency & find out for yourself that you must be licensed to apply any pesticide to someone else's property for hire.

Some states also require a license to apply fertilizers.

Make the phone call!

FYS777
09-11-2009, 11:40 PM
that information is again, incorrect. If you would have taken the test, you would have been tested on FIFRA (the specific FEDERAL laws that deal with pesticide use) I am not a lawyer, but for whatever reason am interested in how the law works, especially as it relates to the field I am in. I have studied these specific laws in detail, and know what I am talking about.

here is some more info for you,, according to FIFRA..

FIFRA established a set of pesticide regulations:

1. FIFRA established registration for all pesticides, which is only done after a period of data collection to determine the effectiveness for its intended use, appropriate dosage, and hazards of the particular material. When registered, a label is created to instruct the final user the proper usage of the material. If instructions are ignored, users are liable for any negative consequences.
Label directions are designed to maximize the effectiveness of the product, while protecting the applicator, consumers, and the environment. Critics of the process point out on the one hand that the research to produce the label is entirely done by the manufacturer and not much checking is done on its accuracy. On the other hand some consider the process too strict. It costs millions of dollars and often several years to register a pesticide, which limits production only to large players. Likewise many smaller or specialty uses are never registered, because the companies do not consider the potential sales sufficient to justify the investment.
2. Only a ton pesticides are available to the general public, and can be used by anyone who will follow directions. Most pesticides are considered too hazardous for general use, and are restricted to certified applicators. FIFRA established a system of examination and certification both at the private level and at the commercial level for applicators who wish to purchase and use restricted use pesticides. The distribution of restricted pesticides is also monitored.
3. The EPA has different review processes for three categories of pesticides: antimicrobials, biopesticides, and conventional pesticides. The three categories have a similar application process, but have different data requirements and review policies. Depending on the category of pesticide, the review process can take several years. After a pesticide is registered with the EPA, there may be state registration requirements to consider.

Clearly there is a difference between General use and Restricted use pesticides.. and it clearly say to those wish to use RESTRICTED use pesticides.

FYS777
09-11-2009, 11:49 PM
here is the link<<< so read please. maybe I'm wrong,

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/civil/fifra/fifraenfstatreq.html


this is what i was pointing to....
EPA must classify each pesticide as either "general use," "restricted use," or both. "General use" pesticides may be applied by anyone, but "restricted use" pesticides may only be applied by certified applicators or persons working under the direct supervision of a certified applicator. Because there are only limited data for new chemicals, most pesticides are initially classified as restricted use. Applicators are certified by a state if the state operates a certification program approved by the EPA.

ted putnam
09-12-2009, 12:08 AM
Many are considered RESTRICTED only if a certain quantity is purchased. Smaller containers of the same product are Not RESTRICTED. So does that mean an unlicensed individual is fine to go ahead and spray if he buys 4 qt bottles of a certain product instead of a 1 gal jug?? Maybe it's because he paid so much more for those little individual bottles than buying one big jug. Does paying that extra money ENTITLE someone to spray without a license just because they are smaller, higher priced packages of the same product??:rolleyes:

I'm confused :confused: Someone needs to explain this to me...:laugh:

LushGreenLawn
09-12-2009, 06:30 AM
The way the law is worded is confusing.

There is a difference between "General Use" and "Restricted Use" pesticides.

Here is where it gets fuzzy, and the way the law (or really, the summary of the law that is all over the internet)is written it is not clear.

You do not need a license to spray a General Use product on your own property, but would need a license to spray a Restricted Use product, even if it wa on your own property.

What these summarys don't do a good job of explaining is that you need a license to spray any pesticide for hire, or really on any property that is not your own.

Call the USDA for clarification if you like. Remember this though, if your out spraying something, and an AG Inspector walks up behind you and hands you a $20,000 fine for spraying without a license, the summary of the law is not going to help you. I tried to link to the actual law, but of course that page on the EPA's site will not load.

phasthound
09-12-2009, 08:28 AM
Directly from http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/licensedescrip2.shtml

This was posted before, but is being misinterpreted.

Licensing is needed when:


buying or applying restricted-use pesticides
applying pesticides (including herbicides) to someone else's property
applying pesticides as a public employee while using a fuel or electric-powered sprayer or spreader
giving advice on how to use a restricted-use pesticide or which restricted-use pesticide will work best
.

No. 2 clearly states a license is required to apply pesticides to someone else's property. Note is does not state "restricted-use". I agree this could be worded better, should say "any" pesticide.

Commercial applicator license


Allows you to use pesticides (general or restricted-use) on someone else's property if employed by a company with the commercial operator license.
Allows you to use restricted-use pesticides on your own (or your employer's) non-agricultural land.
Allows you to supervise a licensed commercial pesticide trainee.
Allows you to tell someone how to use a restricted-use pesticide or which restricted-use pesticide will work best (limited to categories on your license).
Tests required - Laws & safety and at least one category


Here it is very clearly stated in No. 1 that you must be licensed to apply any pesticides for hire.

On Monday, contact the Oregon Dept. of Ag. for clarification. Phone: 503-986-4635 pestx@oda.state.or.us

turf hokie
09-12-2009, 09:41 AM
Just another 2 cents.

"FOR HIRE" does not just include a monetery exchange for the service.
It also includes a barter, return of goods, or service, etc.

You also cannot say you are doing it for "FREE" if they sign up for a mowing service, etc. It is assumed that the cost of the "FREE" pesticide service is included in the cost of the mowing service etc. Therefore, you are indeed being compensated in some manner.

turfman59
09-12-2009, 10:55 AM
Just another 2 cents.

"FOR HIRE" does not just include a monetery exchange for the service.
It also includes a barter, return of goods, or service, etc.

You also cannot say you are doing it for "FREE" if they sign up for a mowing service, etc. It is assumed that the cost of the "FREE" pesticide service is included in the cost of the mowing service etc. Therefore, you are indeed being compensated in some manner.

If you are mixing or loading you are violating the law without a license...If you are morally having a problem with turning someone in that is not licensed..let me ask you how you feel about the aspect of being an accessory to someone commiting a crime ( which by witnessing and doing nothing about it says you dont agree with the premise of licensing) Ignorance of the law is of no excuse to the Ag dept or for that matter the EPA...You are exposed everyday to potential fines with a license and you are allowing someone that doesnt have a clue or doesnt give a crap about public safety to go unchecked.....

turfman59
09-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Take the picture, call the complaint in and and by all means submit your name to the report...By law whether their understaffed or not they are compelled by federal and state laws to investigate it....you pay your dues taxes and insurance to keep your business safe and protect the public..The last thing you should be worried about is, is it morally wrong? I place the value here in Michigan of pesticide license being worth 10K, thats without any customers...thats what? the price of a Zero Turn mower or 2 perma Green machines...If someone was using a Zero turn to cut grass and they had stolen it from another landscaper would you turn them in? I am thinking so

turf hokie
09-12-2009, 11:47 AM
If you are mixing or loading you are violating the law without a license...If you are morally having a problem with turning someone in that is not licensed..let me ask you how you feel about the aspect of being an accessory to someone commiting a crime ( which by witnessing and doing nothing about it says you dont agree with the premise of licensing) Ignorance of the law is of no excuse to the Ag dept or for that matter the EPA...You are exposed everyday to potential fines with a license and you are allowing someone that doesnt have a clue or doesnt give a crap about public safety to go unchecked.....

Not sure if you think I have a moral dilema or you were just speaking out loud in reference to my post.

I posted that so that people that wanted to take the old "this is for my house" to the next step of "well I dont charge for it, so I dont need a license" would realize their is no "escape clause"

I have turned people in, put my name and business on the complaint. Problem here is that the DEC cannot run license plates anymore.

We need to give a company name, but I generally find that the illegal applicators dont carry a name on their truck, which is required, no DOT to look them up, which is required, no home improvement license # to look them up, which is required.

What we are left with now is the address of the illegal application. The DEC then needs to go to the place of the illegal application and hope that the homeowner or property manager will give up the name of the applicator and verify the application.

I find that the DEC views this as too time consuming and would rather go after licensed guys that perhaps have not followed the letter of the law.

turfman59
09-12-2009, 02:28 PM
again you are not using your resources any public police officer can use the lein to access a license plate its that simple, get the local law enforcement involved...dont allow a compliance officer working for the govt any outs. If there being lazy than call them on it....They are compelled by law, that is the bottom line, whether its dept of ag or local law enforcment,or even EPA..If someone is blowing you off about it expose the lazy bast**d for what they are......Thanks

turfman59
09-12-2009, 02:30 PM
If they dont give up the name of the illegal applicator they are also violating the law...there is absolutely no loop holes available outside of using RTU"s in the normal course of your job

americanlawn
09-12-2009, 06:51 PM
We have always "looked the other way", but this case involved a multi-housing property with lots of homeowners, kids, and pets. IMO this account should have been flagged in several places, and if folks were home -- the applicator should have approached all customers who were home at the time just to let them know what he was doing (common sense). Lots of times, people ask if "we're spraying for bugs" (you guys have heard this too). If I lived there, I'd want to know what's going on too. (common sense/human nature..and it's THEIR home)

In my state (Iowa), it used to be law to display name of business & phone number on all vehicles used to apply pesticides. But not anymore -- not sure why, cuz it's a sound practice for any reputable business. Yet we are still required to place flags within five feet of sidewalks. These flags MUST display 1) Company name, 2) Company phone number, 3) in 3/8 inch print or larger, "This area has been "chemically treated". "Do not remove this sign for 24 hours".

As far as trusting "government" -- That's a JOKE! Government agencies often say they won't tell anybody who made a complaint, but too often that's a lie.

Back in the early 70's, I called the Spencer, Iowa cops (not too far from DA Quality) to report that a "sh&tbag roommate" was selling 'hundred thousand lots" of "white-cross" out of my apartment. I was told by the Spencer cops that my call would be anonymous......I was awakened the next morning by this "sh7tbag, drug dealing roommate" pointing a gun pointed at my head. He said "next time, I would be dead". Turns out the Spencer, Iowa cop department told him that I turned him in. I will never let this thing go. I contacted the Spencer cop dept several times over the years, but they say they "don't know about it". So much for "Protect & Serve". :cry:

tlg
09-12-2009, 08:54 PM
If they don't appear to be licensed and they have taken work from us I most certainly will turn the violator in. If I bid a job that requires certain criteria by the State ( a pesticide license) because it's the law then any company that seeks that same work is also required to do so. I think that's fair. Anybody that thinks it's ok to not follow the law is way off base. A few years ago I turned in a company that had no license that STOLE one of our customers. The company was forced to go legit. That's fair. Bring whatever you got now if you want to compete. The customer this company took from us was a Dentist. Of course I asked him how he would feel if his customers left him and went with an unlicensed Dentist. He got my point. These unlicensed company's are nothing more than cheaters. Nobody likes cheaters. JMO

Heidi J.
09-12-2009, 09:51 PM
If they don't appear to be licensed and they have taken work from us I most certainly will turn the violator in. If I bid a job that requires certain criteria by the State ( a pesticide license) because it's the law then any company that seeks that same work is also required to do so. I think that's fair. Anybody that thinks it's ok to not follow the law is way off base. A few years ago I turned in a company that had no license that STOLE one of our customers. The company was forced to go legit. That's fair. Bring whatever you got now if you want to compete. The customer this company took from us was a Dentist. Of course I asked him how he would feel if his customers left him and went with an unlicensed Dentist. He got my point. These unlicensed company's are nothing more than cheaters. Nobody likes cheaters. JMO

Very well said. :waving: I have turned people in. I'll be darned if I am going to let them steal my customers, while I have to pay more for insurance, pay a license fee every year and pay for training of employees for people like this to come along and think they are above the law. If your conscience gets to you, think of it this way.. you would report a crime, right? Well, that's exactly what this is.

FYS777
09-12-2009, 11:25 PM
here is something from, ODP
Pesticides Division
635 Capitol Street NE
Salem, Oregon 97301-2532
Voice: 503-986-4635
FAX: 503-986-4735
Web Page: http://oregon.gov/ODA/PEST
June 2009

and here is what this says, from what all references refer to have been for restricted use pesticides that you would need a license for., but like someone said I will call to check on this.....





,LICENSING AND CERTIFICATION
634.106 Applicability of ORS 634.112 to 634.126 and 634.146. ORS
634.112 to 634.126 and 634.146 shall not apply to:
(1) Manufacturers of materials engaged in research or experimental
work on pesticides.
(2) Persons engaged in the business of a pesticide operator or applicator
only in the application of any pollenicide.
(3) Persons licensed as veterinarians under ORS chapter 686
who are engaged in the practice of veterinary medicine within
the scope of their veterinary medicine practice and employees
of licensed veterinarians when acting within the scope of their
employment.
(4) A farmer or forestland owner applying pesticides, other than
restricted-use pesticides, by use of equipment of the farmer or
forestland owner for others on an occasional basis not amounting
to a principal or regular occupation, if the farmer does not publicly
hold out as a pesticide applicator and if the pesticides that are
applied are furnished by the owner of the land on which such
pesticides are applied.
(5) Persons who do not advertise or publicly hold themselves out as
being in the business of applying pesticides but whose main or
principal work or business is the maintenance of small or home
lawns, shrubs or gardens.
(6) Persons who do not advertise or publicly hold themselves out as
being in the business of applying pesticides and whose principal
activity or business as related to pesticides is selling pesticides or
selling or leasing equipment.
(7) Railroads, to the extent that the application of pesticides is by
their regular employees, on land or property under their ownership,
supervision, control or jurisdiction, except that if power-operated
spray equipment is used for applying volatile herbicides,
the application shall be under the direct supervision of a licensed
public

turfman59
09-13-2009, 09:57 AM
here is something from, ODP
Pesticides Division
635 Capitol Street NE
Salem, Oregon 97301-2532
Voice: 503-986-4635
FAX: 503-986-4735
Web Page: http://oregon.gov/ODA/PEST
June 2009

and here is what this says, from what all references refer to have been for restricted use pesticides that you would need a license for., but like someone said I will call to check on this.....





,LICENSING AND CERTIFICATION
634.106 Applicability of ORS 634.112 to 634.126 and 634.146. ORS
634.112 to 634.126 and 634.146 shall not apply to:
(1) Manufacturers of materials engaged in research or experimental
work on pesticides.
(2) Persons engaged in the business of a pesticide operator or applicator
only in the application of any pollenicide.
(3) Persons licensed as veterinarians under ORS chapter 686
who are engaged in the practice of veterinary medicine within
the scope of their veterinary medicine practice and employees
of licensed veterinarians when acting within the scope of their
employment.
(4) A farmer or forestland owner applying pesticides, other than
restricted-use pesticides, by use of equipment of the farmer or
forestland owner for others on an occasional basis not amounting
to a principal or regular occupation, if the farmer does not publicly
hold out as a pesticide applicator and if the pesticides that are
applied are furnished by the owner of the land on which such
pesticides are applied.
(5) Persons who do not advertise or publicly hold themselves out as
being in the business of applying pesticides but whose main or
principal work or business is the maintenance of small or home
lawns, shrubs or gardens.
(6) Persons who do not advertise or publicly hold themselves out as
being in the business of applying pesticides and whose principal
activity or business as related to pesticides is selling pesticides or
selling or leasing equipment.
(7) Railroads, to the extent that the application of pesticides is by
their regular employees, on land or property under their ownership,
supervision, control or jurisdiction, except that if power-operated
spray equipment is used for applying volatile herbicides,
the application shall be under the direct supervision of a licensed
publicnow look at the federal laws that are starting with 635 636 and 637 you are taking a law out of context and are misleading readers here The EPA's core laws dont allow you to apply in any state without a license unless you are using RTU's in the normal course of your work not as a contractor....Oh Iam only there to cut grass and the turf application is free..are you fricking kidding me it sounds like a bunch of teenagers thinking their smarter than their parents...If you show up with the tools or even borrow them from the client you are holding yourself out to the public

phasthound
09-13-2009, 10:18 AM
here is something from, ODP
Pesticides Division
635 Capitol Street NE
Salem, Oregon 97301-2532
Voice: 503-986-4635
FAX: 503-986-4735
Web Page: http://oregon.gov/ODA/PEST
June 2009

and here is what this says, from what all references refer to have been for restricted use pesticides that you would need a license for., but like someone said I will call to check on this.....

Good. If you'd done so first, you would have avoided spreading misinformation. Then find out what is required to become a licensed pesticide applicator in Oregon.

turfman59
09-13-2009, 10:27 AM
Good. If you'd done so first, you would have avoided spreading misinformation. Then find out what is required to become a licensed pesticide applicator in Oregon.

Like I said before If you read the core manual that the EPA administers you would understand that all the States take there marching orders from the EPA
The state can make things more restrictive not less...The core Federal laws dont allow for people to apply without a license period whether your in Oregon or in Podunck....its a matter of fact that your spreading information out of context...You should have only to check 636 637 to answer that question

FYS777
09-13-2009, 10:39 AM
Like I said before If you read the core manual that the EPA administers you would understand that all the States take there marching orders from the EPA
The state can make things more restrictive not less...The core Federal laws dont allow for people to apply without a license period whether your in Oregon or in Podunck....its a matter of fact that your spreading information out of context...You should have only to check 636 637 to answer that question

like i said i will call, but see this is a good post, like most folks in other places are reading regs like this, and miss understanding,

but please why can't you guys post what you are pointing to? such as 635,636,637 come on put them up...

phasthound
09-13-2009, 10:43 AM
Just make the phone call tomorrow.

I have things to do today before I do something more importnat, watch football. :)

turfman59
09-13-2009, 10:47 AM
Yes great post but really where are only dealing with people with a license and allowing people without to become educated with this debate no offense intended and I know you arent made of China....you arent going to break..neither am I 636 637 in your core manual

FYS777
09-14-2009, 06:04 PM
Well here we go,
I did call ODA, my question to them.
I am going to start a lawn maintenance business next year and wonted to make sure i do the right thing, will i be able to spray round up or a broad leaf spray .WITHOUT an applicator licenses if i buy over the counter pesticides like at home depot .

the drum role please..

the person at ODA ( Oregon department of Ag.) said yes as long as it is a general use pesticide and not a restricted use pesticide and read me the very same reg's that i posted on here, and said as long as it is for residential lawns and not commercial,

:clapping::clapping:

So i believe i was not putting false info on here, THANKS

FYS777
09-14-2009, 06:06 PM
Yes great post but really where are only dealing with people with a license and allowing people without to become educated with this debate no offense intended and I know you arent made of China....you arent going to break..neither am I 636 637 in your core manual

I take no offense

FYS777
09-14-2009, 06:09 PM
Good. If you'd done so first, you would have avoided spreading misinformation. Then find out what is required to become a licensed pesticide applicator in Oregon.

I did call You are wrong. my info is correct. for OREGON

FYS777
09-14-2009, 06:13 PM
here I will post this again for the OREGON folks just doing lawn maintenance... but please check also within the city in which you live too.

Llicensing is NOT needed when:

1. appliying a pesticide on a person's owned or leased property (no restricted-use pesticide applications)
2. applying a pesticide on property owned or leased by an employer while acting as an employee (no restricted-use pesticide applications)
3. giving advice on general-use pesticides
4. performing structural pest inspections for individuals buying or selling a home (see special situations page)
5. applying a pesticide while doing lawn maintenance if all of the following are true:

* Applications are to small residential lawns or gardens only - no applications to commercial properties.
* Not using restricted-use pesticides.
* Not using fuel or electric-powered sprayers or spreaders.
* The use of pesticides is not stated in advertisements, contracts or invoice.


this is from the Oregon reg's... the key words restricted use

phasthound
09-14-2009, 06:55 PM
I did call You are wrong. my info is correct. for OREGON

After reading your post, I also called ODA. The person I spoke with, did say what you said. When I questioned her further, she was not so sure about her answer and forwarded me "to someone who could better provide an accurate answer". I left a voice mail for that person and will let you know what his reply is.

The answer you and I received was in direct violation of FIFRA http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/civil/fifra/fifraenfstatreq.html
and I suspect was from an inexperienced state employee.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-14-2009, 07:07 PM
Its ok to put this thread to bed guys.
I have resolved this issue to the point where I am satisfied. My competitor now is nervous, knowing that daddy DA is watching him for just one more mistep......then the trap snaps:)

FYS777
09-14-2009, 07:15 PM
After reading your post, I also called ODA. The person I spoke with, did say what you said. When I questioned her further, she was not so sure about her answer and forwarded me "to someone who could better provide an accurate answer". I left a voice mail for that person and will let you know what his reply is.

The answer you and I received was in direct violation of FIFRA http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/civil/fifra/fifraenfstatreq.html
and I suspect was from an inexperienced state employee.

man, if thats the case they have been telling people the wrong thing for at lest 6 years that i know of?

a plus bob
09-14-2009, 07:23 PM
Its ok to put this thread to bed guys.
I have resolved this issue to the point where I am satisfied. My competitor now is nervous, knowing that daddy DA is watching him for just one more mistep......then the trap snaps:)

Dang it was just getting good ! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

FYS777
09-14-2009, 07:36 PM
After reading your post, I also called ODA. The person I spoke with, did say what you said. When I questioned her further, she was not so sure about her answer and forwarded me "to someone who could better provide an accurate answer". I left a voice mail for that person and will let you know what his reply is.

The answer you and I received was in direct violation of FIFRA http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/civil/fifra/fifraenfstatreq.html
and I suspect was from an inexperienced state employee.

if you get his name by all means send it to me also, i would like to ask for him personally when i call next time. this will not be good for them if they are giving wrong info out !!!!!!!!

turf hokie
09-14-2009, 08:04 PM
Go get em Barry!!

FYS777
09-15-2009, 08:12 PM
I'm waiting,
and please post something about this directly from FIFRA sense you said you know the REG's so well, o but wait, there might be a football game on again???

turfman59
09-15-2009, 09:28 PM
I'm waiting,
and please post something about this directly from FIFRA sense you said you know the REG's so well, o but wait, there might be a football game on again???I really like it when things are held in the hands of inexperienced state employees over the phone...You have EPA guidlines FIFRA 634 636 and 636 oregon although a beautiful and enviromentally friendly state is not going to overrule those EPA mandates period...They can only make them more restrictive..and the business about them not being invoiced and working for the property owner, is exactly that you are getting a W2 not a 1099 or a W9 form if you cant hold the W2 form up in front of you then the state will shoot holes through you weak story...

turfman59
09-15-2009, 09:35 PM
Guys,

Moral dilemma here. If you could help out that would be great.

I have a set of townhomes very near my own home. I have mowed these townhomes for the past two years HOWEVER I got lowballed on the job this season, and a competitor in town now mows the lawn there.

Today, upon opening my garage door in the morning, I saw my competitor spraying the lawn with a lawn tractor/pull sprayer setup. Not sure if it was straight fert or herbicide, but most likely the latter as the lawn was getting fairly weedy and had not been touched to date. My wife and I drove out of town for some errands, and upon returning home a couple hours later, noticed my competitor was done spraying BUT the lawn had not been flagged for pest. appilcation. Big No, No.

Since I know his name, I also looked online to see if he was licensed to apply, and I could not find a license for this guy. Since he didn't flag the lawn, I am very much thinking he has no license to apply for hire.

I realize the right thing to do would be to call the state Dept of Ag, confirm he does/does not have a license, and turn him in. Otherwise, why do I spend money to become licensed and maintain my lic. when he cheats for nothing? My dilemma is this guy is part of a well known family in my small town - I don't want it getting around that I turned this guy in, I may lose business that way. (If I let the state know about a possible violation, does my name remain anonymous?). Please help guys, what should I do?

Thxagain you said Moral dillema need a little help...and since he didnt flag the lawn you assumed he wasnt licensed....let me ask you a question. What if he was licensed and forgot to post the flags,,Gee it would have been nice to remind a fellow for the publics sake and safety..maybe we need to take a Hippocritical oath or something before we start on our witch hunt

FYS777
09-15-2009, 11:38 PM
I really like it when things are held in the hands of inexperienced state employees over the phone...You have EPA guidlines FIFRA 634 636 and 636 oregon although a beautiful and enviromentally friendly state is not going to overrule those EPA mandates period...They can only make them more restrictive..and the business about them not being invoiced and working for the property owner, is exactly that you are getting a W2 not a 1099 or a W9 form if you cant hold the W2 form up in front of you then the state will shoot holes through you weak story...

you guys think just because you have an app. License that every body has to have one,
you should check out the fertilizer forum. is fertilizer toxic to dog and baby.
interesting... i guess we all here in OREGON read the rules wrong in our own state,

phasthound
09-16-2009, 08:06 AM
I'm waiting,
and please post something about this directly from FIFRA sense you said you know the REG's so well, o but wait, there might be a football game on again???

I received a voice mail in reply to my call.
It seems the ODA does have a different interpretation of FIFRA. I was told there is some kind of exemption for certain professional pesticide applications.
I'll have time to call again tomorrow for clarification. The jury is still out.

turfman59
09-16-2009, 07:35 PM
are you nervous you may be breaking the law....You should be LOL

Dr.Simon
09-16-2009, 08:29 PM
If they are not licensed and not flagging a lawn care application that is needed required by law, they're taking business from law abiding companies. Let your conscious be your guide.

FYS777
09-16-2009, 09:26 PM
I just wonder how long the jury will be out??? probably out to lunch.:laugh::laugh:
did you know that a lawn maintenance buis, is not regulated in oregon. and you don't even have to have a business license ,

and in oregon you can apply fertilizer without a license! on lawns,:clapping::clapping:

whoopassonthebluegrass
09-16-2009, 10:09 PM
I just wonder how long the jury will be out??? probably out to lunch.:laugh::laugh:
did you know that a lawn maintenance buis, is not regulated in oregon. and you don't even have to have a business license ,

and in oregon you can apply fertilizer without a license! on lawns,:clapping::clapping:

Ah, yes. That would coincide with it's euthanasia practices and lower speed limits. You couldn't pay me to live there.

phasthound
09-16-2009, 10:19 PM
I just wonder how long the jury will be out??? probably out to lunch.:laugh::laugh:
did you know that a lawn maintenance buis, is not regulated in oregon. and you don't even have to have a business license ,

and in oregon you can apply fertilizer without a license! on lawns,:clapping::clapping:

Been trading voice mails. Hopefully I will have some answers tomorrow.
We can apply straight fertilizers in NJ without a license too, so far.

Glad you are enjoying yourself. I saw some good football over the weekend. :)

FYS777
09-16-2009, 10:21 PM
Ah, yes. That would coincide with it's euthanasia practices and lower speed limits. You couldn't pay me to live there.

I think everyone is jealous that they are so regulated, but what ever.

o btw our signs don't say speed limit, you must not be able to read,:laugh::laugh::laugh only in some area's of citys, da

FYS777
09-16-2009, 10:26 PM
Ah, yes. That would coincide with it's euthanasia practices and lower speed limits. You couldn't pay me to live there.

what ever, the signs say speed,:):)

FYS777
09-16-2009, 10:29 PM
Been trading voice mails. Hopefully I will have some answers tomorrow.
We can apply straight fertilizers in NJ without a license too, so far.

Glad you are enjoying yourself. I saw some good football over the weekend. :)

I am . and thats good,

DA Quality Lawn & YS
09-16-2009, 11:08 PM
again you said Moral dillema need a little help...and since he didnt flag the lawn you assumed he wasnt licensed....let me ask you a question. What if he was licensed and forgot to post the flags,,Gee it would have been nice to remind a fellow for the publics sake and safety..maybe we need to take a Hippocritical oath or something before we start on our witch hunt

Proven fact - he is NOT licensed.
Nor did he flag.
Not a witch hunt either, I was just a little peeved that when I mowed this lawn (and prior to being licensed to apply), I subbed out the weed control app to another reputable, licensed, and insured establishment. Now this guy just goes in and throws spray for $$ despite not really knowing what he is doing. Would bother most legit operations I think. But, have moved on, old news now.

hughmcjr
09-17-2009, 12:19 AM
that information is again, incorrect. If you would have taken the test, you would have been tested on FIFRA (the specific FEDERAL laws that deal with pesticide use) I am not a lawyer, but for whatever reason am interested in how the law works, especially as it relates to the field I am in. I have studied these specific laws in detail, and know what I am talking about.

I just started reading this and it gets interesting at page 10 where I am quoting you. First off, two points. One the information provided is beyond a reasonable doubt correct and second claiming you know what you are talking about when the actual truth of the law says different doesn't say much for your claim of knowledge and laws. I would suggest you stop generalizing and projecting what you "think" you know onto others where it certainly does not apply.

I have been in business close to 20 years, 19 to be exact. I just got licensed this year. I am in constant contact with ODA, specifically I speak to Roland Maynard and have called him more than a dozen times in the last few months. I quiz him on everything if there is any questions I have with regards to legality. I would surmise if he is not on vacation this is who will speak to you if you contact the ODA.

If I have read into posts or generalized as well please correct me.

Let's clear up a major erroneous idea that seems prevalent in this thread that is in regards to restricted use pesticides. First one cannot acquire Restricted use pesticides in Oregon WITHOUT a Pesticide license, dependent on category. Talking about using restricted use pesticides when one is not licensed, within reason of not acquiring restricted use chemicals illegally, is a moot point and really should have no bearing. No license, no ability to get restricted use pesticides, again within legal means, and end of that discussion.

"The jury is still out." No, no it isn't. Yes I quoted your post phasthound, but it isn't just you.

I can be a cocky and arrogant bastard, but the tone and demeanor of some in this thread with the holier than thou attitude is reprehensible. I understand that we all become a bit egotistical and arrogant as a defensive mechanism when dealing with government regulators, dealers, customers, etc., but that doesn't justify talking down to people in business the way some are in this thread. How about taking the high road and showing some dignity and class. The vast majority of people want to do the right thing even when they aren't or don't know better because they didn't do the research.

The information FYS777 provided is factually accurate, and legal and does NOT conflict with federal laws and the EPA. Oregon must follow EPA rules and the info provided by FYS777 is right from the ODA regs. IF ODA operated outside of the state Federal guidelines it wouldn't be long before they would lose funding and suffer some severe consequences from the feds.

Please stop the erroneous info based on generalities being posted in this thread.

Here is one that gets taken out of context and there are some in business that take things like this and claim it is illegal and swear up and down I am wrong and they are right when they aren't:

When gloves are required as PPE, which they most often are, the ODA RECOMMENDS not using lined gloves. Now, they claim that if the pesticide gets into the glove that the felt will be more saturated, therefore more risk of overexposure, etc. Well, it is NOT against the law in Oregon to wear gloves with a felt liner. And in fact the way I look at it is the state/feds are book smart and brain dead to their and our detriment. IF one gets pesticides inside their gloves, ANY GLOVES you should not be wearing them period. The issue really isn't the lining but the fact one gets pesticides inside the glove. I know and understand the regulators points, but it is really less common sense based then it is by the book which you know how that works in practical applications.

As far as laws, wanting more laws and regulations, WTF? WHy? Why would anyone want more laws and more regulations in a "free country" founded on less laws and less government intrusion. I kow it is idealistic, but we need and should want less laws and more education and tolerance. The whole of society needs to be re-educated on how it reacts and treats each other.

SOme hardcore, flag waving AMericans sure want their lives intruded upon and want more bureaucracy and it astounds me. I wouldn't want to live in CHina, Russia or some other countries, but they actually have WAY less regulations and surprisingly to some less day to day restrictions than we have in the US. Hell we live in a police state and some think it is fine because the excuse is "if you aren't doing anything wrong"...well that isn't the point and wasn't the point of the founding of this country based primarily on the fourth amendment. "The right to be secure in our person, papers and property".... It meant we couldn't just be stopped for walking down the street, arrested, no trial etc without probable cause. The main idea was and is to have true freedom of movement living in free society and not have any entity or government restrict that freedom which is inherent in natural law. Now we have Lancaster PA putting in more video cameras in public 160+, more than any major city in the US and many are ok with it. I don't want to live like that and I would hope most don't.

Look, I have gone off a bit here, but some things said really triggered me, so I make no apologies.

I would welcome seeing those FIFRA regs stating how incorrect the ODA laws are. I want to see them word for word.

hughmcjr
09-17-2009, 12:25 AM
I just wonder how long the jury will be out??? probably out to lunch.:laugh::laugh:
did you know that a lawn maintenance buis, is not regulated in oregon. and you don't even have to have a business license ,

and in oregon you can apply fertilizer without a license! on lawns,:clapping::clapping:

Yes, and as pissed as I get seeing how many fly by night companies there are doing maintenance for illegal prices, cause there is no way they can operate with what they charge, it is what it is. We need less laws and less government intrusion.

Also, good luck trying to get any enforcement done in Oregon. ALL of the local companies in my town are applying illegally and I already called and there is one enforcement officer for the whole valley, Portland to EUgene. They will contact said violators, but don't have the time or manpower to catch them in the act or enforce it. Let's talk about the real issue though in our state, FARMERS. They are the majority of violaters and polluters simply based on the volume of pesticides they use. We have little to no impact on the environment, while Farmers are doing a number on it and us.

FYS777
09-17-2009, 12:32 AM
Yes, and as pissed as I get seeing how many fly by night companies there are doing maintenance for illegal prices, cause there is no way they can operate with what they charge, it is what it is. We need less laws and less government intrusion.

Also, good luck trying to get any enforcement done in Oregon. ALL of the local companies in my town are applying illegally and I already called and there is one enforcement officer for the whole valley, Portland to EUgene. They will contact said violators, but don;'t have the time or manpower to catch them in the act or enforce it. Let's talk about the real issue though in our state, FARMERS. They are the majority of violaters and polluters simply based on the volume of pesticides they use. We have little to no impact on the environment, while Farmers are doing a number on it and us.

I know what you mean, i see a lot of stuff going on here to that doesn't line up.
just being in this industry for 6 years i've seen plenty.

turfman59
09-17-2009, 07:19 AM
You lost me when you got to the China Russia spot...I was thinking someone should kick your soap box out from underneath you LOL

phasthound
09-17-2009, 04:09 PM
I just had a conversation with Roland Maynard at the ODA and he informed me that there are in fact exclusions under Oregon law for the need to be licensed to apply pesticides professionally on residential lawns and gardens.

The following criteria must be met:

Must be a landscape business that performs various maintenance services.
Pesticide applications must be a minor part of the service package.
Pesticide services may not be advertised.
Pesticide services may not be billed separately.
Restricted use pesticides may not be applied.
Pestiicides may not be applied with motorized equipment.


Strange, but true.

hughmcjr
09-17-2009, 04:56 PM
I just had a conversation with Roland Maynard at the ODA and he informed me that there are in fact exclusions under Oregon law for the need to be licensed to apply pesticides professionally on residential lawns and gardens.

The following criteria must be met:

Must be a landscape business that performs various maintenance services.
Pesticide applications must be a minor part of the service package.
Pesticide services may not be advertised.
Pesticide services may not be billed separately.
Restricted use pesticides may not be applied.
Pestiicides may not be applied with motorized equipment.


Strange, but true.

:clapping::clapping:

I applaud your honesty posting that info.

Not strange if you live here and why wouldn't you or others believe what FYS777 posted?
Now you can see why I went off a bit. He was posting the truth and it doesn't go against the EPA/ FIFRA.

I guess what really got me is some claiming they know MORE than someone who is in the regulation end working for the government. That is what I meant by arrogance.

As I said, Roland is who you would speak to. If we stuck together more instead of finding fault with each other life we be easier. ANyone can find fault with another, over looking their faults and getting along with those we normally wouldn't is what makes life interesting and challenging and more rewarding. Especially for those of us in the same field. Let's encourage each other.

I operated in that realm of exclusions for years completely legally. One thing I did do was invoice for what I sprayed which was usually just Roundup, so I would ask if that was illegal and what I was told is if it is still a minor part of the business, 10% or less of your total gross, then that overrides. I included the spraying with my monthly invoice for my mowing services, but there was NOT a separate charge for it. Most often it was for year round contracts and it was "included" as part of the service and did not appear on invoicing more than twice a year. I never billed separately for just spraying and I never did just pesticide applications on any property. It was always maintenance related and very minor. Straight fertilizers don't come under those restrictions, so that wasn't an issue to list as well.

phasthound
09-17-2009, 05:43 PM
:clapping::clapping:

I applaud your honesty posting that info.

Not strange if you live here and why wouldn't you or others believe what FYS777 posted?
Now you can see why I went off a bit. He was posting the truth and it doesn't go against the EPA/ FIFRA.

I guess what really got me is some claiming they know MORE than someone who is in the regulation end working for the government. That is what I meant by arrogance.

Why wouldn't I be honest about it?

Since I deal with clients in many States, I strive to find out what the laws are in them. This is the first time I have found an interpretation like this of FIFRA by any State. Every other State I know of requires all commercial pesticide application businesses and pesticide applicators to be licensed and trained appropriately. Oregon seems to be an anomaly.

Based on that and the large amount of information posted on the Internet, I do not think it arrogant to question the validity of some statements. I did however take the initiative and investigate the matter by contacting the appropriate authority.

If my posts and actions on this matter offended anybody, I can't help that.

FYS777
09-17-2009, 08:06 PM
I just had a conversation with Roland Maynard at the ODA and he informed me that there are in fact exclusions under Oregon law for the need to be licensed to apply pesticides professionally on residential lawns and gardens.

The following criteria must be met:

Must be a landscape business that performs various maintenance services.
Pesticide applications must be a minor part of the service package.
Pesticide services may not be advertised.
Pesticide services may not be billed separately.
Restricted use pesticides may not be applied.
Pestiicides may not be applied with motorized equipment.


Strange, but true.

Thank you for being honest, and taking the time, :clapping::clapping:

FYS777
09-17-2009, 08:32 PM
You lost me when you got to the China Russia spot...I was thinking someone should kick your soap box out from underneath you LOL

hi turfman59, i think you need to make another thread that says, apply pesticides according to what your state reg's tell you what you can do. instead of stop apply or whatever that other thread said!!!! some of us do know what they are.

phasthound
09-17-2009, 08:33 PM
Why wouldn't I be honest about it?

Since I deal with clients in many States, I strive to find out what the laws are in them. This is the first time I have found an interpretation like this of FIFRA by any State. Every other State I know of requires all commercial pesticide application businesses and pesticide applicators to be licensed and trained appropriately. Oregon seems to be an anomaly.

Based on that and the large amount of information posted on the Internet, I do not think it arrogant to question the validity of some statements. I did however take the initiative and investigate the matter by contacting the appropriate authority.

If my posts and actions on this matter offended anybody, I can't help that.

I did mean to say misinformation.

And thanks for the replies regarding my honesty.

FYS777
09-17-2009, 08:39 PM
I did mean to say misinformation.

And thanks for the replies regarding my honesty.

I guess we are all guilty until proven honest on these sites?????

FYS777
09-19-2009, 05:30 PM
I am bring this forward, because there were some that said i was bringing miss information up about applying pesticides in my own state,

ooooo how could it be they said, some were completely wrong on there ignorance, there was even one that started another thread about being not licensed, STOP. and you know who you are, But i do have to say there was only one that took the time to actually check it out even though he to was one of those others for a little bit. that could not accept the truth.

the only thing i can say is , if you have ??? about pesticide use, dont ask on here unless they are in your state and can direct you to the right information needed for you to apply, another words don't go by what people say go directly to your state regulators to find out!!!!!!!!

ted putnam
09-19-2009, 06:42 PM
if you have ??? about pesticide use, dont ask on here unless they are in your state and can direct you to the right information needed for you to apply, another words don't go by what people say go directly to your state regulators to find out!!!!!!!!

Excellent advice! Everyone should be doing that anyway... along with reading their own labels, figuring their own rates, etc...:)

phasthound
09-19-2009, 06:57 PM
I am bring this forward, because there were some that said i was bringing miss information up about applying pesticides in my own state,

ooooo how could it be they said, some were completely wrong on there ignorance, there was even one that started another thread about being not licensed, STOP. and you know who you are, But i do have to say there was only one that took the time to actually check it out even though he to was one of those others for a little bit. that could not accept the truth.

the only thing i can say is , if you have ??? about pesticide use, dont ask on here unless they are in your state and can direct you to the right information needed for you to apply, another words don't go by what people say go directly to your state regulators to find out!!!!!!!!

I am always amazed that so many people choose to seek answers to legal questions on forums such as this instead of going to legitimate sources.
When your business is on the line, that's just plain foolish. It's not that hard to do. It took me less time to track down the correct answer than it did to post my disbelief that the ODA has those exemptions. I do not know of any other State that has a similar interpretation of FIFRA.

Live & learn.

FYS777
09-19-2009, 07:10 PM
I just had a conversation with Roland Maynard at the ODA and he informed me that there are in fact exclusions under Oregon law for the need to be licensed to apply pesticides professionally on residential lawns and gardens.

The following criteria must be met:

Must be a landscape business that performs various maintenance services.
Pesticide applications must be a minor part of the service package.
Pesticide services may not be advertised.
Pesticide services may not be billed separately.
Restricted use pesticides may not be applied.
Pestiicides may not be applied with motorized equipment.


Strange, but true.

:clapping::clapping:

I applaud your honesty posting that info.

Not strange if you live here and why wouldn't you or others believe what FYS777 posted?
Now you can see why I went off a bit. He was posting the truth and it doesn't go against the EPA/ FIFRA.

I guess what really got me is some claiming they know MORE than someone who is in the regulation end working for the government. That is what I meant by arrogance.

As I said, Roland is who you would speak to. If we stuck together more instead of finding fault with each other life we be easier. ANyone can find fault with another, over looking their faults and getting along with those we normally wouldn't is what makes life interesting and challenging and more rewarding. Especially for those of us in the same field. Let's encourage each other.

I operated in that realm of exclusions for years completely legally. One thing I did do was invoice for what I sprayed which was usually just Roundup, so I would ask if that was illegal and what I was told is if it is still a minor part of the business, 10% or less of your total gross, then that overrides. I included the spraying with my monthly invoice for my mowing services, but there was NOT a separate charge for it. Most often it was for year round contracts and it was "included" as part of the service and did not appear on invoicing more than twice a year. I never billed separately for just spraying and I never did just pesticide applications on any property. It was always maintenance related and very minor. Straight fertilizers don't come under those restrictions, so that wasn't an issue to list as well.

I am always amazed that so many people choose to seek answers to legal questions on forums such as this instead of going to legitimate sources.
When your business is on the line, that's just plain foolish. It's not that hard to do. It took me less time to track down the correct answer than it did to post my disbelief that the ODA has those exemptions. I do not know of any other State that has a similar interpretation of FIFRA.

Live & learn.

Hi and if i may, call you Barry, i have been looking at some products, i do a lot of residential s that have kids and pets, so i am thinking about organics a bit more, I know the clients that i have may appreciate organics a little more even if it is a little more in price.

phasthound
09-19-2009, 08:47 PM
Hi and if i may, call you Barry, i have been looking at some products, i do a lot of residential s that have kids and pets, so i am thinking about organics a bit more, I know the clients that i have may appreciate organics a little more even if it is a little more in price.

In Oregon, you need a license to apply organic products. :laughing::D:):rolleyes:

GravelyNut
09-20-2009, 01:11 AM
Interesting thread for someone who gave up his license over 20 years ago. Back then I had the problem of falling in neither the Commercial or homeowner categories for what I was doing. Working for the State at an experimental farm with chemicals that only carried minimal instructions for use and safety precautions.