Compost install

[Dodge2]

I have a customer who is goning to need 10 yards of compost ( 15X75 foot garden). It has to be transported about 140 feet into the backyard ( I have a small tractor and a 1/2 yard trailer). SO my question is how much should I be charging per hour for 3 guys, a small tractor and trailer. ( in Ottawa if that helps). I was thinking compost price delivered + $34 per man hour ( 34 X 3 = 102), Plus $18 per hour for the tractor & trailer for a total of 120 per hour. Does this price seem resonable, and how long do you think it will take me.

P.S I know its the wrong section, but it'll get more traffic this way.

[LouisianaLawnboy]

I normally charge 2 to 3 times the price of the compost.

[Kiril]

Why do you need a tractor & trailer? Two wheel barrows and a couple of rakes is all you need to bust out 10 yards in 2-3 hours with 3 guys.

[pt03]

I understand it's not what you asked but that seems like a lot of compost to me. If it's decent compost, and the garden soil isn't completely void of OM, I'd only recommend an inch worked into the top three inches of soil. If the soil was in poor shape to begin with then maybe more might be necessary.

As far as labour and costs I don't know, but if it was me, I'd first recommend the person hire a couple of high school students to move the compost. $120 per hour for grunt labour seems like a bit much for the task to moi.

Lloyd:canadaflag:

[Kiril]

I understand it's not what you asked but that seems like a lot of compost to me. If it's decent compost, and the garden soil isn't completely void of OM, I'd only recommend an inch worked into the top three inches of soil. If the soil was in poor shape to begin with then maybe more might be necessary.

If you are going to amend a soil with incorporation then 10 yards is probably not enough. This gives him around a 3" layer which is in the range of the minimum amount required for most soils.

Soils in general should be amended with incorporation to an min 8" depth for turf, 12" or more for everything else. At a 12" incorporation depth he would probably want to go with 4" or more.

Use the handy calculator if you want to dial in your application amounts.

http://virginiadot.org/business/bu-compost.asp

[pt03]

I looked at the calculator but without specific tests on the soil and compost, it is not very useful to an average gardener.

A healthy soil, OM wise, is in the 3-5% range and anything more than 8% is way overkill. Obviously if the soil one is starting with has zero OM then more 'post would be needed but I have never seen nor heard of any soil being that poor (unless it is pure sand).

This from Canadian site (http://www.compost.org/compost.html).

VEGETABLE GARDENS
Apply about 2 1/2 cm (1”) of compost and incorporate into the soil to a depth of 12 cm (5”) with a rototiller or by hand. For poor soils, you may need to apply compost on a yearly basis until the soil has improved to your satisfaction. Do not overapply compost because many vegetables will not produce high yields if excess nitrogen is in the soil. Compost used as a mulch can be turned into the soil prior to replanting.

When people buy compost from me for use in gardens, I usually tell them 1/2 to 1 inch worked into top 3 inches every fall, any more than that and I am stealing their money.

Lloyd:canadaflag:

[Kiril]

I looked at the calculator but without specific tests on the soil and compost, it is not very useful to an average gardener.

If you want to know specifically how much compost you need to reach a given %OM, then you need that info. That is why I included some very general recommendations for amending to depth.

A healthy soil, OM wise, is in the 3-5% range and anything more than 8% is way overkill. Obviously if the soil one is starting with has zero OM then more 'post would be needed but I have never seen nor heard of any soil being that poor (unless it is pure sand).

What will define the best OM% for your soil will depend on what soil you are dealing with. Saying 3-5% is all you need is a gross exaggeration IMO. Soils with low CEC (native parent material) and/or poor structure will need more OM initially than a soil which has a relatively good CEC and good structure.

FYI, I have seen recommendations ranging from 10-25% OM incorporated to 12" during the construction process to build/rebuild/restore a soil to a condition that is suitable for landscapes. Personally I feel that in order to build a soil correctly you should start with a minimum of 10-15% OM to 12" depth (assuming no confining layer) if you are rebuilding a soil.

Given it is not a stretch to assume the post construction soil is in piss poor shape, and you are planning on tilling/incorporating, then a starting 10% OM for planting beds and gardens for a typical post construction soil is a good place to start. This will provide relatively good soil structure to a decent depth.

Some resources that have general recommendation for compost amounts.

http://www.seattle.gov/util/lawncare/LawnReport.htm

http://www.buildingsoil.org/tools/Soil_BMP_Manual.pdf

http://your.kingcounty.gov/solidwaste/naturalyardcare/compost.asp

Note Soil Preparation on page 18 from the first link recommends 20-25% starting OM%.

Soil Preparation

Those lucky enough to have an agricultural-quality sandy or clay loam soil at least 12 inches deep can
proceed to grading and planting. All other soils, whether sand, glacial till, or clay, should be amended as
follows:
minimum specification: 2 inches of compost that meets Washington’s Grade A guidelinesa 138
tilled and completely mixed into the upper 6 to 8 inches of soil, for a finished organic amendment
content of 20 to 25%.b

preferred specification: 4 inches of Grade A compost completely mixed into the upper 12
inches of soil, again for a finished compost content of 20-25%. This is valuable for improving
drainage in the root zone, though regrading the surface for better runoff or installing a subsurface
drainage system may also be needed on very wet sites. A tractor-mounted rotovator is useful for
this depth of tilling, and a ripping plow may be necessary to break up “hardpan” or compacted
glacial till soils.

optional additional seedbed preparation: An additional 2 inches of the same or slightly finer
screened compost, or topsoil, completely tilled into the upper 3 inches of soil.

nutrient and pH correction: A soil analysis is preferable (see page 15) to reveal nutrient
deficiencies or acidity, which can be corrected with amendments such as dolomitic lime tilled in at
this time, although the added compost will also tend to buffer soils toward a more neutral pH and
supply some missing nutrients. 100 lb. of dolomite lime per 1000 sq. ft. can be tilled in with good
effect if no soil test is available. (Attempting to amend soils with uncomposted organic materials
is not recommended, but if done it requires a soil test after tilling, because of the widely varying
pH and nutrient levels of these raw materials.)
The goal is to never have sharp horizons (“layers”) in the soil profile, as these will tend to limit the depth of
root development. Complete tilling is also critical – buried organic layers such as old lawns under a layer
of topsoil can also limit root development. The use of raw, uncomposted organic materials such as
sawdust, wood chips, bark dust, or fresh manure is not recommended, because of problems with nitrogen
deficit in the woody materials and weed seeds in fresh manure, and uneven settling encountered with both.
It is better to hot-compost these materials on site for at least a month before tilling them in.c

When people buy compost from me for use in gardens, I usually tell them 1/2 to 1 inch worked into top 3 inches every fall, any more than that and I am stealing their money.

I have never seen any target depth recommendation of 3", nor would I recommend it myself. The absolute minimum depth you should target is 6", and that is pretty much limited to turf. A minimum of 8" for turf is what I would recommend.

Your 1/2-1" application will suffice as a maint. application only. When building a soil with incorporation, or when using as a mulch, your suggested rate will not be enough in the vast majority of cases.

[pt03]

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree but here are a few quotes from some of the resources I base my recommendations on:

"If soils are managed so organic matter is not declining (steady-state), soils higher in organic matter (e.g., 8 per cent) are not inherently more productive or fertile than those that have less organic matter (e.g., 5 per cent)."

"The plow pan is that seven inches of topsoil that is flipped over by a moldboard plow, the seven inches where most biological activity occurs, where virtually all of the soil's organic matter resides." and "But for the purpose of maintaining humus content of vegetable ground at a healthy level, a thin scattering once a year is a gracious plenty."

The OP was talking garden (type not specified), not lawn, (nor am I, I don't know crap about lawns), ergo the one link is kinda irrelevant and I'm not sure where the "post construction" came from, I didn't read that in the OP.

Sorry to Dodge2 for hijacking, I'll bow out now.*trucewhiteflag*

Lloyd:canadaflag:

[Kiril]

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree but here are a few quotes from some of the resources I base my recommendations on:

"If soils are managed so organic matter is not declining (steady-state), soils higher in organic matter (e.g., 8 per cent) are not inherently more productive or fertile than those that have less organic matter (e.g., 5 per cent)."

"The plow pan is that seven inches of topsoil that is flipped over by a moldboard plow, the seven inches where most biological activity occurs, where virtually all of the soil's organic matter resides." and "But for the purpose of maintaining humus content of vegetable ground at a healthy level, a thin scattering once a year is a gracious plenty."

The OP was talking garden (type not specified), not lawn, (nor am I, I don't know crap about lawns), ergo the one link is kinda irrelevant and I'm not sure where the "post construction" came from, I didn't read that in the OP.

Sorry to Dodge2 for hijacking, I'll bow out now.*trucewhiteflag*

Lloyd:canadaflag:

Post construction means after the land has been developed. I don't feel it is a leap to assume a poor soil in this case, given what I have seen personally with post construction soils and what has been reported on this site by the vast majority. Perhaps if the OP were to get the necessary information to determine the appropriate amount of compost needed, then we wouldn't need to guess at what the OP's soil needs or what he is trying to do. I'm not even sure why you felt the need to criticize the OP on the amount of compost he is using in the first place.

You need to keep in mind there is more to soil fertility than nutrients. The recommendations I posted are primarily to build good soil structure and do not necessarily have anything to do with "fertility" as it applies to the most biologically active zone or nutrients within that zone.

It is about building a good foundation for your landscape. What comes after that foundation is built is another story. As I said, and your quote also says, what you recommended is acceptable for maintenance, but IMO it is not for adequate for rebuilding. Given the OP is using 10 yards for ~1200 square feet, then I think it is fair to assume he is attempting to rebuild the soil or mulch it.

Also please keep in mind that biologically active zones vary widely depending on soil type, environmental conditions, and management practices .... even on a given site. For example, I have one site that the backyard would be lucky to have a biologically active zone of 2 inches, whereas the front yard could easily be in the 8" range.

BTW, the doc I quoted (Ecologically Sound Lawn Care for the Pacific Northwest) is the most comprehensive and well referenced source of information on land care as it applies to landscapes that I have seen to date. Anyone involved in landscape management and/or maintenance should put it at the top of the list of items to read.

[Dodge2]

Why do you need a tractor & trailer? Two wheel barrows and a couple of rakes is all you need to bust out 10 yards in 2-3 hours with 3 guys.
I posted this than after a day or two I thought the same thing, it would just be more trouble to bring a tractor and trailer, and would not save any time( because of set up) compared to two barrows. And the soil in the garden is just sand almost, the guy has plants that are 4 years old that look like they have just been planted. And I have decided to charge a flat fee of $750 for all of it. Thanks for all the advice.

[terrapro]

I understand it's not what you asked but that seems like a lot of compost to me. If it's decent compost, and the garden soil isn't completely void of OM, I'd only recommend an inch worked into the top three inches of soil. If the soil was in poor shape to begin with then maybe more might be necessary.

As far as labour and costs I don't know, but if it was me, I'd first recommend the person hire a couple of high school students to move the compost. $120 per hour for grunt labour seems like a bit much for the task to moi.

Lloyd:canadaflag:

:hammerhead:

LOL it seems like a bit much....You don't run a business do you?

If I had 3 guys and a tractor on site it would be over $250 per hour. It would also be done and cleaned up in 2.5 hours though.

Dodge2 sounds like you are right on with the estimate. Hopefully you are not including the compost in that number. Unless you can get it for under $5-10 per yard. Compost is almost $30 per yard around here! Good luck.

[Dodge2]

Terrapro I think your right, I was dead on with the by hour price I was giving,( not including compost), but yet I figured on the amount I was doing it would cost the same( overall) to charge 80 per hour and just get them to use wheelbarrows, which would be a lot easier for me not having to trailer any equipment over.

[pt03]

:hammerhead:

LOL it seems like a bit much....You don't run a business do you?



Not this kind of business, just a farm.

I can and do use high school kids for $10/hour. I try to match the expertise (thusly cost) of my laborers with the task they are asked to perform. Schlepping a wheelbarrow from a front yard to a back yard isn't rocket surgery IMO. My point was that if it was my customer, I'd recommend he fone a local high school for the grunt labor. I do understand that a business is theoretically there to get as much $ from a customer as possible but it's not the way I do things. To each his own I guess.