C4 Technology combines

[joesimoes2]

Has any one tried this blower?

[Sharpcut 1]

I'm a Shindiawa Dealer in Mich. we have sold a lot of these blowers. Demo one. Awsome power, will want to whip your arm around at full throttle if tou point it to the ground. couple DB quieter than 2 stroke. Still uses oil/gas mix, but 4 stroke. Just adjust valves once a year. Nothing but rave reviews from customers for leaf cleanups. Couple more $$'s to purchase, buy you'll love it.

[Greenboy24]

Use those all the time, great power and very comfortable as well, those and the 802s are the only ones we use.

[green monster]

This blower is crazy powerful. A couple things I noticed in addition to what has already been said, is that it uses less fuel, being it is a 4 stroke. And you don't stink like 2 cycle exhaust fumes after you are done running it. The straps are very comfortable.

[Merkava_4]

Do you move the throttle with your left thumb?

[BJWLAWNCARE]

I'm a Shindiawa Dealer in Mich. we have sold a lot of these blowers. Demo one. Awsome power, will want to whip your arm around at full throttle if tou point it to the ground. couple DB quieter than 2 stroke. Still uses oil/gas mix, but 4 stroke. Just adjust valves once a year. Nothing but rave reviews from customers for leaf cleanups. Couple more $$'s to purchase, buy you'll love it.


How do you adjust the valves. Should it be done on all c-4's or just the blower.

[pugs]

How do you adjust the valves. Should it be done on all c-4's or just the blower.

All the 4 cycles. I think they have some silly spec like every 157 hours or some strange number. They have some special tools to do it.

[BJWLAWNCARE]

never knew about the valves. I never did it before and haven't had any problems. I have at least 500 hours on the multi tool easy. Probably much much more. I worked over 1,400 hours myself last season alone. Only thing I have had to do to it was the dog wore out in the starter. I also put a longer screw in to adjust the idle speed.

[DavidNJ]

How smooth is it compared to a BR600? How powerful compared to an Echo 770?

I demoed it back to back with the BR600 and 770. The one I tested must have been broken...it vibrated like crazy, was noisy, and was the weakest I tried. The unit seems deeper than the others, causing the weight possibly to feel like more than the scale shows.

Time to complete the work, therefore the volume of air, is important to us. What could have caused the problem? How do EB8520RTs that are working correctly compare to an Echo 770T or Stihl BR600 Magnum?

[Capemay Eagle]

I'm a Shindiawa Dealer in Mich. we have sold a lot of these blowers. Demo one. Awsome power, will want to whip your arm around at full throttle if tou point it to the ground. couple DB quieter than 2 stroke. Still uses oil/gas mix, but 4 stroke. Just adjust valves once a year. Nothing but rave reviews from customers for leaf cleanups. Couple more $$'s to purchase, buy you'll love it.
I am in the market for a new blower, I actually have a poll/thread in the homeowner forum for advice on which blower to buy at the moment. I have been looking at the Shindaiwa the last day or so because there is a local dealer here I like and would like to deal with him. I am curious what is the price on this blower? I saw one listing of $619? That is a little steep, but this blower is what I need for leaves. Can you give me your price. Thx

[Capemay Eagle]

I'm a Shindiawa Dealer in Mich. we have sold a lot of these blowers. Demo one. Awsome power, will want to whip your arm around at full throttle if tou point it to the ground. couple DB quieter than 2 stroke. Still uses oil/gas mix, but 4 stroke. Just adjust valves once a year. Nothing but rave reviews from customers for leaf cleanups. Couple more $$'s to purchase, buy you'll love it.
I am in the market for a new blower, I actually have a poll/thread in the homeowner forum for advice on which blower to buy at the moment. I have been looking at the Shindaiwa the last day or so because there is a local dealer here I like and would like to deal with him. I am curious what is the price on this blower? I saw one listing of $619? That is a little steep, but this blower is what I need for leaves. Can you give me your price. Also could I use the same fuel for this blower in my Echo trimmer and blower? I don't know if this uses a different oil or not, it says 50:1. Thx

[DavidNJ]

I read where it was more powerful, however the only local dealer had one, a demo, and it was broken. The trigger control is good. However, the unit is both heavy and hangs out a fair difference. I imagine it will feel pretty heavy after a long day.

[sdk1959]

I am in the market for a new blower, I actually have a poll/thread in the homeowner forum for advice on which blower to buy at the moment. I have been looking at the Shindaiwa the last day or so because there is a local dealer here I like and would like to deal with him. I am curious what is the price on this blower? I saw one listing of $619? That is a little steep, but this blower is what I need for leaves. Can you give me your price. Also could I use the same fuel for this blower in my Echo trimmer and blower? I don't know if this uses a different oil or not, it says 50:1. Thx

Both Stihl & Shindaiwa make blowers with 4-stroke engines using a gas/oil mix lubrication designed for a 2-stroke engine that have less moving parts to lubricate. Regular 4-stroke engines use the more reliable dedicated separate lubrication system.

Both Stihl & Shindaiwa have less than 10 years experience making small 4-stroke engines, thier past expertise is in 2-stroke engines.

While I don't doubt these blowers performance I'm not sold on Stihl & Shindaiwa 4-stroke hybrid engines for long term reliability & maintenance, not to mention you still have to mix gas & oil and synthetic pre-mix isn't cheap adding to it's operating cost.

If you want to go with a 4-stroke backpack blower I would recommend the Makita BBX7600 4-stroke blower with a regular 4 stroke engine( no gas oil mix) separate oil lubrication.
The engine is a 75cc 4-stroke Robin-Subaru engine. Robin-Subaru have been making small 4-stroke engines for decades, not less than 10 years, they have solid engineering experience and expertise in small 4-stroke engines. The link for the Makita blower is below.

I had the Makita 25cc handheld blower for 3 seasons and just got the Makita backpack blower in September. The backpack blower is very powerful, rated 700CFM @ 195MPH plenty of blowing power for leaves, easy on gas too, 1/2 gallon tank lasts about 1hr &15 minutes sometimes more. You can get it from Amazon for $399.99 with free shipping. They have the best price, other sellers and dealers charge $450 or more PLUS shipping. As far as CFM ratings there is no industry standard, so it can be misleading. Also a 100CFM difference in 2 backpack blower ratings will not be a night and day difference in blowing power, depending on the nozzle and what your blowing you may not notice a difference in power at all.

Good luck in your decision.

http://www.amazon.com/Makita-BBX7600-Commercial-4-Stroke-Gas-Powered/dp/B001ASOZWA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291700759&sr=8-1

[jkilov]

I'm not the greatest fan of sumps on micro 4-strokes. These engines burn oil at an alarming rate, checking oil level is a messy daily operation, inaccurate after trailer time, just begging for low oil disasters. Also all-position operation claims are mostly conditional.

[sdk1959]

I'm not the greatest fan of sumps on micro 4-strokes. These engines burn oil at an alarming rate, checking oil level is a messy daily operation, inaccurate after trailer time, just begging for low oil disasters. Also all-position operation claims are mostly conditional.

I beg to differ, maybe a cheap Ryobi or Troy Built 4-stroke trimmer or blower you can buy at Lowes or Home Depot burn oil after so many hours of use. Not quality commercial grade Honda or Robin-Subaru engines. My 4-stroke Honda 35cc Trimmer and my 4-stroke Makita blowers oil levels barely budge below the full mark between oil changes.

You check the oil in your 4-stroke lawn mowers everyday during the season ( at least you should)? And how many times you check it in a day? Once. Either at the start of the day before you load up or at the end of the day, not after every lawn cut. Is it a big messy ordeal? No. Why would it be any different for a 4-stroke blower or trimmer? It's simple and quick, not a big messy ordeal. Neither is changing the oil. No cap plugs to remove, just run the engine for a few minutes to get the engine oil warm, take off the oil fill cap, tip the blower or trimmer over a oil pan, drain it, put in fresh oil and your ready to go. I use synthetic oil so it stays cleaner longer and pours out much easier. Change it every 25-35 hours of use approximately, no big deal.

As far as running in any position I've had my 4-stroke Honda trimmer 2 seasons, used upside down when I edge, no smoke, no problems, they are specifically designed to use in ANY position just like a 2-stroke can. The 4-stroke blowers unless it's completely upside down, no problem. But then, who uses a blower upside down?

[jkilov]

Don't take me wrong, these micro 4-strokes are great for homeowners, no need to mix gas for a single tool, quiet and refined.

But you'll hardly find them on commercial trailers:
- when you have 8-10 pieces of handheld equipment checking oil daily IS a nuisance
- they are lower power-to-weight than airborne lubricated C4 or 4-MIX let alone 2-strokes
- neither offer true-all-position running, though both use a dry sump, they should'nt be tilted until they warm up. The honda smokes when cold & ran upside down, robin isn't really designed for it either.
- finally neither are real commercial units. Honda is a Malayan or Thai or wherever built plain aluminum bore engine, Robin is somewhat better.

I have ran both, the smoothest unit's I've ever owned but really not intended for commercial use.

[sdk1959]

Don't take me wrong, these micro 4-strokes are great for homeowners, no need to mix gas for a single tool, quiet and refined.

But you'll hardly find them on commercial trailers:
- when you have 8-10 pieces of handheld equipment checking oil daily IS a nuisance
- they are lower power-to-weight than airborne lubricated C4 or 4-MIX let alone 2-strokes
- neither offer true-all-position running, though both use a dry sump, they should'nt be tilted until they warm up. The honda smokes when cold & ran upside down, robin isn't really designed for it either.
- finally neither are real commercial units. Honda is a Malayan or Thai or wherever built plain aluminum bore engine, Robin is somewhat better.

I have ran both, the smoothest unit's I've ever owned but really not intended for commercial use.

You may have run the older Honda OHV trimmer not the newer OHC trimmer. I used my 35CC Honda HHT35SLTAT
for 2 seasons and believe me it can be run in any position.

I use it upside down every-time I edge. Honda does not use a dry sump in their mini-4-stroke engines, they use a patented rotary-slinger lubrication. Below is a statement straight from thier website:

Full 360° "any-side-up" operation
Mini 4-Stroke Series
The innovative design of Honda’s Mini 4-Stroke engines allows them to be used and stored in any position for full 360° usability. Upright, sideways, even upside down – the Mini 4-Strokes will still run great.

An exclusive Honda rotary-slinger lubrication system keeps oil in a completely misted state and circulates it using pressure fluctuations generated by the movement of the piston.

Built-in passages effectively return the circulated oil to the oil reservoir from every part of the engine. An oil return port positioned in the center of the reservoir prevents oil from accidentally flowing into the combustion chamber.

I also own a Echo SRM230, nice trimmer, light, runs great after it's warmed up but I prefer my Honda trimmer. No running issues at all, better on gas, total throttle control, excellent torque power at low RPM's for trimming near cars, houses, or anything else where you don't want to kick up stones and debris. Heavier, sure, but with the shoulder strap, no problem, and when I get 2 foot tall grass to cut down the power is already there.



Now back to the Hybrid 4-stroke engines, whether the 4-mix or the C4 engines. I can't help but think this is nothing more than a transition technology to meet emission standards today and the near future to further gain and refine their 4-stroke engineering to the eventual end of making a 4-stroke engine that has separate oil lubrication.

Me, I rather go with a company (Honda or Robin-Subaru) that has been making small 4-stroke engines for decades with superior engineering, a large engineering staff & budget that virtually assures this going forward.

[ratfink]

Both Stihl & Shindaiwa have less than 10 years experience making small 4-stroke engines, thier past expertise is in 2-stroke engines.

The design they use is well over 10 years old, it goes back to the 80s (Patent was filed in 1985) and is based on a design that was developed for lightweight reconnaissance UAVs used in the military.

[sdk1959]

The design they use is well over 10 years old, it goes back to the 80s (Patent was filed in 1985) and is based on a design that was developed for lightweight reconnaissance UAVs used in the military.

Having something on paper and a few prototypes made up doesn't count as design production experience. Most telling about the reliability of the design can't be duplicated in a lab. You need real world experience and feedback to refine and enhance the design. Both Stihl and Shindaiwa have scant little production experience in building small 4-stroke engines when compared to Honda & Robin/Subaru.

I just used my Makita 25cc 4-stroke hand-held blower today in 28 degree weather to blow off the pine needles off the porch after bringing in my xmas tree. Started in 2 pulls, about a 20-30 second warm-up and I was ready to go.

If I tried to trim some hedges with my Echo HC-150 2-stroke hedge trimmer in the same 28 degree cold it would have taken 7-10 pulls and 3-4 minutes to warm up enough to start trimming, same with my 2-stroke chain saw. Plus they both chew thru gas and synthetic oil mix isn't cheap so that adds to thier operating cost.

I don't know how well the 4-mix or C4 engines are with starting and running in cold weather but if they are anything like the typical 2-stroke in cold weather who needs that aggravation and wasted time? :dizzy:

[ratfink]

Having something on paper and a few prototypes made up doesn't count as design production experience. Most telling about the reliability of the design can't be duplicated in a lab. You need real world experience and feedback to refine and enhance the design. Both Stihl and Shindaiwa have scant little production experience in building small 4-stroke engines when compared to Honda & Robin/Subaru.

It's not just paper, the technology was fielded by the Army in their UAVs far far earlier then the technology was integrated into hand held products.

I just used my Makita 25cc 4-stroke hand-held blower today in 28 degree weather to blow off the pine needles off the porch after bringing in my xmas tree. Started in 2 pulls, about a 20-30 second warm-up and I was ready to go.

If I tried to trim some hedges with my Echo HC-150 2-stroke hedge trimmer in the same 28 degree cold it would have taken 7-10 pulls and 3-4 minutes to warm up enough to start trimming, same with my 2-stroke chain saw. Plus they both chew thru gas and synthetic oil mix isn't cheap so that adds to thier operating cost.

I have pulled units new out of our unheated storage shed in the middle of winter and typically have them (both C4 and 2-stroke) running in half (or less) the amount of pulls that you are subjecting your HC-150 to. That is without fuel ever having touched the lines.

Each has their pluses an minuses, and I am by no means advocating that one should never buy a mini 4 stroke. What I am saying is I think it is asinine to dismiss a technology out based on no actual experience.

I don't know how well the 4-mix or C4 engines are with starting and running in cold weather but if they are anything like the typical 2-stroke in cold weather who needs that aggravation and wasted time?
It has been my experience that these hybrid engines start just as easy in cold weather as a conventional 4 stroke engine.

[sdk1959]

As far as 2-stroke engines in cold weather I've yet to see one yet that starts & runs as good as a 4-stroke engine in the same cold temperatures. That includes motorcycle engines, outboard motors, handheld equipment, chainsaws I've had experience with them all. Maybe it has something to do with oil in the gas in the cold weather making it harder for the carburetor, I don't know.

Stihl had a litany of problems with the first version 4-mix of the BR600, which according to your 1985 timeline was many years after being first introduced to the military.
Some posters say the new BR600's are a completely different blower than the first version.

Iv'e seen a few Stihl BR600's being used in some YouTube videos ,the engine is very noisy and you can hear the valve tapping when its idling plain as day. These are ones that look like they have low hours on them. I'm sure the valve tapping noise is there at higher RPM's too but the blower noise drowns it out. Here is a link to one below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4nra9KM5Hg

[rob7233]

Enough said.

You will never see a POS Makita, Honda, Robin/Suburu blower or any other pieces of their handheld equipment on my trailer regardless of what you say/claim/post.

First reason is that ALL of my LCO buddies would tease me to death till I dumped ever last one I had, along with the fact my dealer doesn't work on any of them. Lastly, I seriously doubt that with all their features along with any actual "Real World" performance would motivate me sufficiently from my Shindaiwa to finally see your, one true "Makita Light" !!

It seems you've obviously haven't tried the Shindaiwa blowers and are really committed to your previous purchase decision and feel the need to continually support it despite it's raging unpopularity here on LS.

Besides the Shindaiwa blowers are likely the best thing in their whole lineup. Just like my friend Mikey G. now says: - "He likes it!!" Mikey really does like his new Shindaiwa blower.... so will you. :drinkup: (Not a paid advertisement)

[sdk1959]

Enough said.

You will never see a POS Makita, Honda, Robin/Suburu blower or any other pieces of their handheld equipment on my trailer regardless of what you say/claim/post.

First reason is that ALL of my LCO buddies would tease me to death till I dumped ever last one I had, along with the fact my dealer doesn't work on any of them. Lastly, I seriously doubt that with all their features along with any actual "Real World" performance would motivate me sufficiently from my Shindaiwa to finally see your, one true "Makita Light" !!

It seems you've obviously haven't tried the Shindaiwa blowers and are really committed to your previous purchase decision and feel the need to continually support it despite it's raging unpopularity here on LS.

Besides the Shindaiwa blowers are likely the best thing in their whole lineup. Just like my friend Mikey G. now says: - "He likes it!!" Mikey really does like his new Shindaiwa blower.... so will you. :drinkup: (Not a paid advertisement)

Honda and Robin/Subaru have been making small 4-stroke engines in production for decades and Shindaiwa & Stihl less than 10 years and they make a better and more reliable small 4-stroke engine then Honda and Robin Subaru-Really??!! The annual small engine engineering budget at Honda is probably more than the total annual sales of Shindaiwa and Stihl hybrid 4-stroke equipment .

A lot of things cannot be duplicated in a lab, as you stated you need real world use, Honda and Robin/Subaru have decades of it with their small 4-stroke engines. Shindaiwa and Stihl don't. Just look at some posts from some early Stihl BR600 owners.

I never doubted the Shindaiwa and Stihl blowers performance. I also don't doubt the engineering and build quality of the blower housing and fan assembly. What I do doubt and not sold on are these hybrid 4-stroke engines they use in their blowers and trimmers.

Both of these companies are late to the party when it comes to engineering and making small 4-stroke engines. And one cannot help but think these engines are nothing more than a transition technology till the EPA tightens emissions regs. and they eventually HAVE TO make a 4-stroke engine that does not burn a gas/oil mix but has separate oil lubrication just like the Honda and Robin/Subaru engines.

I also know for a FACT the hybrid 4-stroke engines burn more gas plus the cost of oil premix, are louder, vibrate more, and have higher emissions then the regular 4-stroke engines that Honda and Robin/Subaru make. Now my Honda trimmer is about 1 1/2 lbs more than a comparable 2-stroke trimmer, but with the shoulder strap that weight is not a issue. Both my Makita blowers perform great, the backpack CFM specs are about the same as a Stihl BR600, they cost less to operate, quieter, vibrate less, and have lower emissions than the Shindaiwa or Stihl hybrid 4-stroke blowers. That is why I chose Honda and Makita equipment.

It's all about the hybrid 4-stroke engine. Not sold on it and never will be.

By the way, Merry Christmas, have a good one!:cool2:

[jkilov]

I also know for a FACT the hybrid 4-stroke engines burn more gas plus the cost of oil premix, are louder, vibrate more, and have higher emissions then the regular 4-stroke engines that Honda and Robin/Subaru make.

Sorry to sound like a holiday breaker, but all this is nonsense.

The only difference between these engines is lubrication, airborne vs. forced mist.

[rob7233]

It seems you've obviously haven't tried the Shindaiwa blowers and are really committed to your previous purchase decision and feel the need to continually support it despite it's raging unpopularity here on LS.

I agree, it is a bunch of nonsense. Some people just can't take a hint.

[sdk1959]

Sorry to sound like a holiday breaker, but all this is nonsense.

The only difference between these engines is lubrication, airborne vs. forced mist.

Not quite, more than that, hybrid 4-stroke engines burn oil, plus they are louder, have more vibration and emissions, less gas efficient plus the added cost of oil premix.

Again I'm NOT talking about the hybrid 4-stroke engine performance but about the points above. All these points are true about hybrid 4-stroke engines and can be easily proven.

And since they are true and a regular 4-stroke has about the same performance why go with a hybrid 4-stroke engine? Where's the upside? Polluting more, lining the pockets of oil companies, Stihl and Shindaiwa? No thanks, I'll pass.

This guy in this review link below wasn't too happy with his Stihl BR600 hybrid 4-stroke.

http://www.epinions.com/review/Stihl_BR_600_Backpack_Blower_epi/content_463398014596

It's all about slick marketing with these hybrid 4-stroke pieces of equipment and a herd mentality towards buying them.

[sdk1959]

Enough said.

You will never see a POS Makita, Honda, Robin/Suburu blower or any other pieces of their handheld equipment on my trailer regardless of what you say/claim/post.

First reason is that ALL of my LCO buddies would tease me to death till I dumped ever last one I had, along with the fact my dealer doesn't work on any of them. Lastly, I seriously doubt that with all their features along with any actual "Real World" performance would motivate me sufficiently from my Shindaiwa to finally see your, one true "Makita Light" !!

It seems you've obviously haven't tried the Shindaiwa blowers and are really committed to your previous purchase decision and feel the need to continually support it despite it's raging unpopularity here on LS.

Besides the Shindaiwa blowers are likely the best thing in their whole lineup. Just like my friend Mikey G. now says: - "He likes it!!" Mikey really does like his new Shindaiwa blower.... so will you. :drinkup: (Not a paid advertisement)

Between the slick marketing and the herd mentality towards buying hybrid 4-stroke equipment little wonder they are all the "rage" on lawnsite. No suprise there, me I'd rather go with a company that produces real 4-stroke engines with DECADES of experience producing small 4-stroke engines vs Stihl and Shindaiwa each with less than ten years.

Let's face it, the Stihl and Shindaiwa resume has scant experience producing 4-stroke engines and if they are ever forced by EPA emission standards in the future to produce regular 4-stroke engines for their handheld trimmers they both will have serious engineering problems to overcome. This is because Honda has the patent on the their exclusive rotary-slinger lubrication system, which is needed for trimmers since they have to run in any position.

If you use a Honda trimmer 300 hours a season you would save $141.00 a year in operating costs based on $3.00 a gallon. See this link:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/trimmers/content.aspx?asset=tb_LowerOperationCost


Guess that's one of the reasons why the local parks around here use Honda trimmers exclusively. By the way the Stihl dealer who is also a Honda dealer told me that and I've seen park employees using them. When you have 10 of these trimmers in use with a savings of $141.00 a year each x 10 = $1410 a year savings- not small potatoes. Smart park management, glad to see my tax dollars being saved, and the Honda trimmers are low maintenance & more reliable too.

[HenryB]

Between the slick marketing and the herd mentality towards buying hybrid 4-stroke equipment little wonder they are all the "rage" on lawnsite. No suprise there, me I'd rather go with a company that produces real 4-stroke engines with DECADES of experience producing small 4-stroke engines vs Stihl and Shindaiwa each with less than ten years.

Let's face it, the Stihl and Shindaiwa resume has scant experience producing 4-stroke engines and if they are ever forced by EPA emission standards in the future to produce regular 4-stroke engines for their handheld trimmers they both will have serious engineering problems to overcome. This is because Honda has the patent on the their exclusive rotary-slinger lubrication system, which is needed for trimmers since they have to run in any position.

If you use a Honda trimmer 300 hours a season you would save $141.00 a year in operating costs based on $3.00 a gallon. See this link:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/trimmers/content.aspx?asset=tb_LowerOperationCost


Guess that's one of the reasons why the local parks around here use Honda trimmers exclusively. By the way the Stihl dealer who is also a Honda dealer told me that and I've seen park employees using them. When you have 10 of these trimmers in use with a savings of $141.00 a year each x 10 = $1410 a year savings- not small potatoes. Smart park management, glad to see my tax dollars being saved, and the Honda trimmers are low maintenance & more reliable too.

Makita should thank you. I'm buying their 4 stroke blower because of your posts. Very infomitive. Most guys on here are blindly brand loyal. I wouldn't expect them to change brands.

[ratfink]

Let's face it, the Stihl and Shindaiwa resume has scant experience producing 4-stroke engines and if they are ever forced by EPA emission standards in the future to produce regular 4-stroke engines for their handheld trimmers they both will have serious engineering problems to overcome. This is because Honda has the patent on the their exclusive rotary-slinger lubrication system, which is needed for trimmers since they have to run in any position.
If the rotary slinger is as tried and tested as you claim, they patent has expired. Patents only last 14 years. But that really doesn't matter as the only difference between a sumped 4 stroke and a 4Mix is how they lubricate.

If you use a Honda trimmer 300 hours a season you would save $141.00 a year in operating costs based on $3.00 a gallon. See this link:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/trimmers/content.aspx?asset=tb_LowerOperationCost

A 4mix is a 4 stroke engine. It has the similar fuel economy as other 4 stroke engines. The fuel savings doesn't come from some magic in the lubrication system it comes from the fact that a 4 stroke has a power stroke every 4th stroke rather then every 2nd. Hence the same RPMs for half the fuel used. Period end of story.

[sdk1959]

If the rotary slinger is as tried and tested as you claim, they patent has expired. Patents only last 14 years. But that really doesn't matter as the only difference between a sumped 4 stroke and a 4Mix is how they lubricate.



A 4mix is a 4 stroke engine. It has the similar fuel economy as other 4 stroke engines. The fuel savings doesn't come from some magic in the lubrication system it comes from the fact that a 4 stroke has a power stroke every 4th stroke rather then every 2nd. Hence the same RPMs for half the fuel used. Period end of story.

Your right, the hybrid 4-stroke engines do have better fuel efficiency than a 2-stroke but still not quite as good as a regular 4-stroke engine because just like a 2-stroke there is some unburned fuel in it's exhaust. Then you still have the oil premix to buy as well. That adds over a $1.00 a gallon to the cost of gas.

If and when Stihl & Shindaiwa make true 4-stroke equipment I might consider giving them the benefit of a doubt and buy one of their products.

You might be onto something with the Honda patent expiring in 14 years. That might have been Stihl and Shindaiwa's game plan all along: Design and build hybrid 4-stroke engines for their equipment, gain experience building 4-stroke engines and get feedback from users till the Honda patent runs out for their rotary slinger lubrication system then come out with their own true 4-stroke engine. If you could take a peek inside their labs they may have a prototype of their version of a true 4-stroke on the bench. Can't be made public till the patent expires. Something to think about.

[sdk1959]

Makita should thank you. I'm buying their 4 stroke blower because of your posts. Very informative. Most guys on here are blindly brand loyal. I wouldn't expect them to change brands.

Unfortunately your right. Makita makes all kinds of tools and equipment and their quality is first rate. No reason at all to bash them.

I own and used the Makita BHX2500 handheld blower commercially for 2 seasons plus a bit last winter blowing some snow and it has worked great. Been dropped 3 times, case never cracked ,alway's a solid performer. This guy made a youtube video he was so pleased with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x4nhebsi6Y

When I found out Makita also makes a 4-stroke backpack blower I looked at all the positive reviews and plus my own past experience with their handheld 4-stroke blower and bought the Makita BBX7600 Commercial Grade 75.6cc 4-Stroke backpack blower this September. Love it. Just as well made and rugged as their handheld blower.

You will be very pleased with it. Amazon has the best price with free shipping. I got mine for $399.00 but they are really starting to sell so they raised the price to $429.00 with free shipping. Economics's 101, supply and demand. Still a great deal.

[ratfink]

Your right, the hybrid 4-stroke engines do have better fuel efficiency than a 2-stroke but still not quite as good as a regular 4-stroke engine because just like a 2-stroke there is some unburned fuel in it's exhaust. Then you still have the oil premix to buy as well. That adds over a $1.00 a gallon to the cost of gas.

I would absolutely love to see you back that up with numbers. No engine completely burns fuel. It doesn't matter if it's a 2 stroke engine or a $100,000 car you always end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust. That is what catalytic converters are for. While it is true that 2 strokes have far more unburnt fuel within the exhaust, 4 mixes aren't 2 stroke engines.

You might be onto something with the Honda patent expiring in 14 years. That might have been Stihl and Shindaiwa's game plan all along: Design and build hybrid 4-stroke engines for their equipment, gain experience building 4-stroke engines and get feedback from users till the Honda patent runs out for their rotary slinger lubrication system then come out with their own true 4-stroke engine. If you could take a peek inside their labs they may have a prototype of their version of a true 4-stroke on the bench. Can't be made public till the patent expires. Something to think about.

The point is that both are relatively new technology, Honda's past experience using a different lubrication system has as much bearing on their newest system's reliability as Shindiawa's experience in 2 stroke has on their 4mix. That said the slinger doesn't make or break a small 4 cycle engine there are plenty other ways of doing this. The reason why Shindaiwa uses C4 is that they see it as having numerous advantages that they like over a 4 stroke with a sump.

[sdk1959]

I would absolutely love to see you back that up with numbers. No engine completely burns fuel. It doesn't matter if it's a 2 stroke engine or a $100,000 car you always end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust. That is what catalytic converters are for. While it is true that 2 strokes have far more unburnt fuel within the exhaust, 4 mixes aren't 2 stroke engines.



The point is that both are relatively new technology, Honda's past experience using a different lubrication system has as much bearing on their newest system's reliability as Shindiawa's experience in 2 stroke has on their 4mix. That said the slinger doesn't make or break a small 4 cycle engine there are plenty other ways of doing this. The reason why Shindaiwa uses C4 is that they see it as having numerous advantages that they like over a 4 stroke with a sump.

Yes again you are right, I should have clarified my statement, all engines have unburned fuel in thier exhaust, the point is how much.

Honda's first 4-stroke handheld trimmers used the OHV design and had minor problems if stored in a certain position oil could get into the combustion chamber. The newer ones are all OHC design so that is no longer a problem. Funny though when I bought my Honda trimmer in spring 2008 the Stihl/Honda dealer didn't have a newer one for me to demo and brought out a older Honda OHV trimmer that was several years old that they use to trim around the shop. It started and ran fine, excellent throttle control, I liked and bought a new one. He took the new one out of the box and put it together for me, put oil and gas in, demoed it, great dealer service.:)

[Landscape Poet]

Just like my friend Mikey G. now says: - "He likes it!!" Mikey really does like his new Shindaiwa blower.... so will you. :drinkup: (Not a paid advertisement)

Yep, like mine, got turned on to them by Rob - I ended up getting a eb630 - seems to have the best combo of power and control to me of the blowers I have tried.

[sdk1959]

Here is the link below.


[http://www.turfmagazine.com/article.php?id=6281

[jkilov]

:sleeping:... half of the article is bogus advertising. Like I said earlier the only difference between micro 4-strokes and hybrids is lubrication.

Vibration is proportional to reciprocating mass, same deal for both engines
Noise is dependent on combustion, exhaust valve and muffler characteristics
Fuel consumption is comparable for both engines
Tappet noise is normal for all 4-strokes, loud only when valves misadjusted
Valve-train wear is normal for all 4-strokes, though less on OHC than OHV units
Newer 2-strokes, hybrids and micro 4-strokes all meet current emission standards, none are emission free
Both C4 and 4-mix outpower honda

To each his own, C4, 4-mix, robin-subaru are all good engines. What matters is that you like using them and they make you money.

[sdk1959]

:sleeping:... half of the article is bogus advertising. Like I said earlier the only difference between micro 4-strokes and hybrids is lubrication.

Vibration is proportional to reciprocating mass, same deal for both engines
Noise is dependent on combustion, exhaust valve and muffler characteristics
Fuel consumption is comparable for both engines
Tappet noise is normal for all 4-strokes, loud only when valves misadjusted
Valve-train wear is normal for all 4-strokes, though less on OHC than OHV units
Newer 2-strokes, hybrids and micro 4-strokes all meet current emission standards, none are emission free
Both C4 and 4-mix outpower honda

To each his own, C4, 4-mix, robin-subaru are all good engines. What matters is that you like using them and they make you money.

The Stihl FS130 R is the equivilent to the 35cc Honda trimmer I have. Link is below. It's weight is the same too because if you notice the little asterisk in the Stihl link * Weight without cutting attachment or deflector. The weight Honda publishes are WITH the cutting attachment and deflector.

In the Youtube video link below the operator is cutting a hillside of thick vegetation with a Stihl FS130 which is the same as the FS130 R except it has a bike handle. I have also cleared thick weeds and vegetation just like this with my Honda with the same ease and I can tell by looking at it they have about the same amount of power.

Only difference is the Honda vibrates less, is more fuel efficient, and has less emissions plus no synthetic premix to buy for even lower operating costs.
http://www.stihlusa.com/trimmers/FS130R.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhFEfmnRY1Q

[ratfink]

The Stihl FS130 R is the equivilent to the 35cc Honda trimmer I have. Link is below. It's weight is the same too because if you notice the little asterisk in the Stihl link * Weight without cutting attachment or deflector. The weight Honda publishes are WITH the cutting attachment and deflector.

FS130R Weight: 12.5lbs w/o cutting attachment (your link)
HHT35SLTCT Weight: 14.8 w/o cutting attachment (http://www.excelhondamoto.com/docs/en/lawnmowers.pdf)
The Honda is 2.3lbs heavier.

In the Youtube video link below the operator is cutting a hillside of thick vegetation with a Stihl FS130 which is the same as the FS130 R except it has a bike handle. I have also cleared thick weeds and vegetation just like this with my Honda with the same ease and I can tell by looking at it they have about the same amount of power.
Or we could do the math:

FS130 = 1.9bhp (your link)
GX35 = Doing a bit of math gets us 1.67hp (http://www.excelhondamoto.com/docs/en/lawnmowers.pdf)
12% More power with the Stihl.

Only difference is the Honda vibrates less
Proof?

is more fuel efficient
The only difference between a sump 4 stroke and a 4mix/C4 is the lubrication system so there is likely to be little to no difference. Unless you can post some numbers that isn't going to change.

[sdk1959]

FS130R Weight: 12.5lbs w/o cutting attachment (your link)
HHT35SLTCT Weight: 14.8 w/o cutting attachment (http://www.excelhondamoto.com/docs/en/lawnmowers.pdf)
The Honda is 2.3lbs heavier.

Or we could do the math:

FS130 = 1.9bhp (your link)
GX35 = Doing a bit of math gets us 1.67hp (http://www.excelhondamoto.com/docs/en/lawnmowers.pdf)
12% More power with the Stihl.


The only difference between a sump 4 stroke and a 4mix/C4 is the lubrication system so there is likely to be little to no difference. Unless you can post some numbers that isn't going to change.

The link you posted is a Honda brochure and it states without cutting blades. Which means the head and guard are still on it. I weighed mine complete with head and guard plus almost a full tank of gas and it weighs 15 lbs.

When using today's rating standards Stihl's hp ratings can be very inaccurate. Stihl still uses the old bhp (brake horsepower) ratings which the US auto industry stopped using in the early 1970's because it does not account for losses or gains from the drive-train, air filter, fan, belts, exhaust system, etc. The rating is measured right at the shaft. Honda uses the SAE Net Power NOT the Net HP(not as accurate) rating in accordance with SAE J1349.

The Honda GX35 engine's "Net Power" is rated 1.3hp @ 7000 RPM

Stihls FS130 engine would rate about the same using the same Hp rating method Honda uses, not the outdated bhp rating methods from the 1970's.



The same amount of vibration with hybrid 4-stroke engines?

Then why are the hybrid 4-stroke engines in Stihl's BR600 backpack blowers mounted on some type of free floating base to reduce vibration? See video link below. The engine can be easily seen moving on it's free floating base, plus the guy has it sitting on a piece of carpet so it doesn't vibrate off the table .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gYdAOdQkAU

My Makita backblower with it's true 4-stroke engine isn't mounted on some type of free floating base to reduce vibration. Why? It's not needed! This finely engineered engine already runs smooth with little vibration.:cool2:

As far as gas efficiency with hybrid 4 strokes, while there are no numbers for it there is still no escaping the fact that the cost of synthetic oil premix adds at least a $1.00 or more a gallon to the cost of the gas it uses.

[ratfink]

The link you posted is a Honda brochure and it states without cutting blades. Which means the head and guard are still on it. I weighed mine complete with head and guard plus almost a full tank of gas and it weighs 15 lbs.
I would question the accuracy of the scale. You will find the Stihl in the same situation weighs about 2lbs less. The guard just doesn't weigh that much and will be offset to a degree by oil held in the sump of the GX35

When using today's rating standards Stihl's hp ratings can be very inaccurate. Stihl still uses the old bhp (brake horsepower) ratings which the US auto industry stopped using in the early 1970's because it does not account for losses or gains from the drive-train, air filter, fan, belts, exhaust system, etc.

The rating is measured right at the shaft. Honda uses the SAE Net Power NOT the Net HP(not as accurate) rating in accordance with SAE J1349. The Honda GX35 engine's "Net Power" is rated 1.3hp @ 7000 RPM

J1349 matters far more in larger engines then in smaller ones. There just isn't enough variation fan/breather/muffler design to warrant a huge percentage in change. But two real imperfect numbers are better then 1 better and one imaginary.

The same amount of vibration with hybrid 4-stroke engines?

Then why are the hybrid 4-stroke engines in Stihl's BR600 backpack blowers mounted on some type of free floating base to reduce vibration? See video link below. The engine can be easily seen moving on it's free floating base, plus the guy has it sitting on a piece of carpet so it doesn't vibrate off the table .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gYdAOdQkAU

My Makita backblower with it's true 4-stroke engine isn't mounted on some type of free floating base to reduce vibration. Why? It's not needed! This finely engineered engine already runs smooth with little vibration.:cool2:

All engines vibrate, particularly a single cylinder engine, I would suspect that Stihl cares more about it's user's comfort then Makita does. Cherry picking videos is not proof. I assure you there are Makitas that vibrate far worse then that I have had them though my shop. When property working there isn't much difference in vibration.

As far as gas efficiency with hybrid 4 strokes, while there are no numbers for it there is still no escaping the fact that the cost of synthetic oil premix adds at least a $1.00 or more a gallon to the cost of the gas it uses.
Synthetic oil can be had for far cheaper then $1 a gallon for anyone who does enough work for it to be an issue.

[sdk1959]

I would question the accuracy of the scale. You will find the Stihl in the same situation weighs about 2lbs less. The guard just doesn't weigh that much and will be offset to a degree by oil held in the sump of the GX35





J1349 matters far more in larger engines then in smaller ones. There just isn't enough variation fan/breather/muffler design to warrant a huge percentage in change. But two real imperfect numbers are better then 1 better and one imaginary.


All engines vibrate, particularly a single cylinder engine, I would suspect that Stihl cares more about it's user's comfort then Makita does. Cherry picking videos is not proof. I assure you there are Makitas that vibrate far worse then that I have had them though my shop. When property working there isn't much difference in vibration.


Synthetic oil can be had for far cheaper then $1 a gallon for anyone who does enough work for it to be an issue.

The scale is accurate and not only includes the guard but the head assembly as well. If you put the Stihl FS 130 with the guard and head assembly installed on a scale the weight would be come out the same 14.0-15 Lbs. Your statement "will be offset to a degree by oil held in the sump of the GX35". The amount of oil it holds is 3.4 oz and there is NO sump pump- it is crackcase pressure driven. The amount of gas in the tank would offset the weight more (tank size 22 oz).



The SAE J1349 Net Power HP rating is a combination of the torque and horsepower, and is much more accurate in terms of real use available power. Engine size really has no bearing. I only stated the items used in cars that effect actual horsepower as a example and because the auto industry was the first to use the new rating method. Items on a trimmer can effect the ratings too such as the type and length of the drive-shaft, type of clutch, etc. I would believe today's Net Power HP rating over a outdated bhp horsepower rating. The Net Power HP that gets to the cutting head is what a operator really uses and what really matters.

Your statement "all engines vibrate". Ya think??

It 's all in the AMOUNT of vibration. Stihl HAS to mount the engine for their BR600 backpack blower on a free floating base for operator comfort, otherwise you would not be able to use it more than 10 minutes. Makita does not, because it is NOT needed. Vibration is NOT a issue with it's Robin/Subaru engine. It's a well engineered engine. I've have used my Makita backpack blower on several leaf jobs this fall running it over a hour straight with no operator comfort problems at all.

Cherry picking video's? What would you want me to pick a Stihl BR600 video with the operator 100 feet away to show engine vibration? Needed a close up one like the one I picked. Just common sense.

Synthetic oil pre-mix adding less than a $1.00 a gallon to the cost of gas? Maybe if you bought some off brand synthetic oil pre-mix by the gallon. Good luck with that.:rolleyes:

[ratfink]

The scale is accurate and not only includes the guard but the head assembly as well. If you put the Stihl FS 130 with the guard and head assembly installed on a scale the weight would be come out the same 14.0-15 Lbs. Your statement "will be offset to a degree by oil held in the sump of the GX35". The amount of oil it holds is 3.4 oz and there is NO sump pump- it is crackcase pressure driven. The amount of gas in the tank would offset the weight more (tank size 22 oz).

Both do not include the head assembly, the only difference is the guard. The guard does not weigh 2.4lbs. No one said anything about a sump pump, I said the contents of the oil sump. 3.4oz of 10W30 oil still weighs something.

The SAE J1349 Net Power HP rating is a combination of the torque and horsepower
Horespower is torque (ft-lbs/Watts) over time so of course it takes in account both ((torque in ft.lb. x rpm) ÷ 5252)

Items on a trimmer can effect the ratings too such as the type and length of the drive-shaft, type of clutch, etc. I would believe today's Net Power HP rating over a outdated bhp horsepower rating. The Net Power HP that gets to the cutting head is what a operator really uses and what really matters.
J1349 doesn't take into account anything past the PTO; Drive shafts and clutches have no bearing on the rating as they are not included in testing.

It 's all in the AMOUNT of vibration. Stihl HAS to mount the engine for their BR600 backpack blower on a free floating base for operator comfort, otherwise you would not be able to use it more than 10 minutes.
You have no proof of this, this is your own assumptions and nothing more.

Synthetic oil pre-mix adding less than a $1.00 a gallon to the cost of gas? Maybe if you bought some off brand synthetic oil pre-mix by the gallon. Good luck with that.:rolleyes:
So long as the oil meets the standards required of it by the manufacturer name brand and off brand oil will make no difference.

[sdk1959]

Both do not include the head assembly, the only difference is the guard. The guard does not weigh 2.4lbs. No one said anything about a sump pump, I said the contents of the oil sump. 3.4oz of 10W30 oil still weighs something.


Straight from Honda's website:



What about the weight?
You may have heard others try to characterize Honda trimmers as being heavy.

The reality is Honda trimmers use the lightest engines in their class. They have very similar weights to other commercial grade trimmers – even competitive two-stroke models. In some cases, our units are even lighter!

This is a case where the product specs just don’t tell the whole story. Most of our competitors list their trimmers’ weight without the cutting head. In a real life situation, you’ll find that their models are similar in weight to the comparable Honda trimmer.

And, because Honda trimmers have excellent balance and low vibration, they are actually more comfortable to use over long periods of time. Add in the quality, fuel efficiency, durability, and performance offered only by a Honda trimmer, and there’s just no comparison.

The bottom line: don’t just look at the numbers in a brochure. Instead, ask your dealer for a demo. We think you’ll find that comparing apples to apples, the Honda is a winner.

[sdk1959]

Horespower is torque (ft-lbs/Watts) over time so of course it takes in account both ((torque in ft.lb. x rpm) ÷ 5252)


J1349 doesn't take into account anything past the PTO; Drive shafts and clutches have no bearing on the rating as they are not included in testing.


You have no proof of this, this is your own assumptions and nothing more.


So long as the oil meets the standards required of it by the manufacturer name brand and off brand oil will make no difference.

There is a item called a "test fixture". When a engine manufacturer wants to test the Net Power HP of their engine using the SAE J1349 rating standard the test fixture will simulate the load. So yes they are included in the testing. In the case of trimmers the shaft the clutch, etc. Even when using the outdated bhp rating method Stihl uses a engine manufacturer will still use a type of test fixture.

Stihl is very vague in the power spec for their FS 130 trimmer. No torque or horsepower curves, no RPM spec. Honda gives you the power curve for both the torque & horsepower and the RPM for the Net Power HP.

Vibration? Seeing is believing in this case. I think it's pretty clear from the video this engine has a lot of vibration otherwise Stihl would not have spent the time and money to mount the BR600 hybrid 4-stroke backpack blower engine on a free floating base if excess vibration were not the case.

Makita does not have to mount their true 4-stroke engine on a free floating base for their BBX7600 backpack blower because excess vibration is not a issue with this engine and not needed. Here is the link again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gYdAOdQkAU

[ratfink]

There is a item called a "test fixture". When a engine manufacturer wants to test the Net Power HP of their engine using the SAE J1349 rating standard the test fixture will simulate the load. So yes they are included in the testing. In the case of trimmers the shaft the clutch, etc. Even when using the outdated bhp rating method Stihl uses engine manufacturer will still use a type of test fixture.
The test fixture is a dyno attached to the PTO of the engine for an engine test. No shaft or clutch is used.

Like SAE gross and other brake horsepower protocols, SAE Net hp is measured at the engine's crankshaft, and so does not account for transmission losses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#SAE_gross_power

The test is all outlined in the J1349 pdf available from the SAE website.

[sdk1959]

The test fixture is a dyno attached to the PTO of the engine for an engine test. No shaft or clutch is used.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#SAE_gross_power

The test is all outlined in the J1349 pdf available from the SAE website.

From the link in your post:

SAE net power. In the United States, the term bhp fell into disuse in 1971-72, as automakers began to quote power in terms of SAE net horsepower in accord with SAE standard J1349. Like SAE gross and other brake horsepower protocols, SAE Net hp is measured at the engine's crankshaft, and so does not account for transmission losses. However, the SAE NET POWER PROTOCOL calls for standard production-type belt-driven accessories, air cleaner, emission controls, exhaust system, and other power-consuming accessories. This produces ratings in closer alignment with the power produced by the engine as it is actually configured and sold. The Net Power protocol rating is what Honda uses and a test fixture is used to simulate any load (shaft, clutch, etc) when measuring the Net Power HP.It is not simply a dyno hooked up to the shaft of a motor. It could be done this way but any known losses from the shaft, clutch ect would be SUBTRACTED from the measured HP and the result would be the NET Power HP.


The SAE J1349 net power rating standard is a protocol of how and what should be included in the test-not specific instructions for every single type of engine.

[ratfink]

However, the SAE NET POWER PROTOCOL calls for standard production-type belt-driven accessories, air cleaner, emission controls, exhaust system, and other power-consuming accessories. This produces ratings in closer alignment with the power produced by the engine as it is actually configured and sold.
Notice nowhere in what you bolded is mention of transmission, clutches or drive-shafts?

The Net Power protocol rating is what Honda uses and a test fixture is used to simulate any load (shaft, clutch, etc) when measuring the Net Power HP.
We call that test fixture an Electric or an Eddy Current Dynamometer. It's the same thing that is used to measure break horsepower.

It could be done this way but any known losses from the shaft, clutch ect would be SUBTRACTED from the measured HP and the result would be the NET Power HP.
Subtracting for shaft or clutch losses is and never has been not part of SAE J1349 as it's a measure of the power and efficiency of the engine, not the drive train.

The SAE J1349 net power rating standard is a protocol of how and what should be included in the test-not specific instructions for every single type of engine.
Every single engine no, but there are different procedures for different types of engines, including small and mini engines.

[sdk1959]

Notice nowhere in what you bolded is mention of transmission, clutches or drive-shafts?


We call that test fixture an Electric or an Eddy Current Dynamometer. It's the same thing that is used to measure break horsepower.


Subtracting for shaft or clutch losses is and never has been not part of SAE J1349 as it's a measure of the power and efficiency of the engine, not the drive train.


Every single engine no, but there are different procedures for different types of engines, including small and mini engines.

First off it's the Net Power HP protocol Honda uses, not the Net HP. The difference between the 2 is one includes the load losses the other one doesn't but both fall under SAE J1349. I mentioned it was Net Power HP Honda uses in previous posts. As far as what load items were mentioned that was for the auto industry in the link they used as a example. If you read the 2nd sentence in the paragraph as stated below:

"SAE Net hp is measured at the engine's crankshaft, and so does not account for transmission losses. However, the SAE NET POWER PROTOCOL calls for standard production-type belt-driven accessories, air cleaner, emission controls, exhaust system, and other power-consuming accessories. This produces ratings in closer alignment with the power produced by the engine as it is actually configured and sold."


The hp figure Stihl gives is using the outdated bhp rating, they don't give the RPM's for the hp, no power or torque curves. Honda uses the more accurate Net Power HP rating protocol, they give the Net Power HP @7000 RPM's, plus have torque and horsepower curves. I have a lot more confidence in Honda's HP specs than Stihls.

[ratfink]

First off it's the Net Power HP protocol Honda uses, not the Net HP. The difference between the 2 is one includes the load losses the other one doesn't but both fall under SAE J1349.
Absolutely not. J1349 is a raw rating fudging the numbers up or down would de-certify the rating. There are specific formulas used the calculate the J1349 values, deviation from these will render the numbers garbage within the eyes of the SAE.

"SAE Net hp is measured at the engine's crankshaft, and so does not account for transmission losses. However, the SAE NET POWER PROTOCOL calls for standard production-type belt-driven accessories, air cleaner, emission controls, exhaust system, and other power-consuming accessories. This produces ratings in closer alignment with the power produced by the engine as it is actually configured and sold."
This simply means that on engines that require them... alternators, water pumps, power steering pumps, etc within the serpentine belt track cannot be excluded, the engine has to be run with a stock breather, a catalytic converter and muffler, also if a gear driven pump, a stator, etc is part of the engine it too must be included. The spec ends at the PTO.

The hp figure Stihl gives is using the outdated bhp rating, they don't give the RPM's for the hp, no power or torque curves. Honda uses the more accurate Net Power HP rating protocol, they give the Net Power HP @7000 RPM's, plus have torque and horsepower curves. I have a lot more confidence in Honda's HP specs than Stihls.
The manual gives the RPMs, it's 8500rpm. http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/FS130_Manual.pdf

I am not arguing that J1349 isn't better then a ISO 8893, bhp rating. I am not nor ever would make the claim. What I am saying is two things:
1. Two like real numbers even if they are imperfect are better points of comparison then One better one and one Imaginary. Both companies provided bhp ratings for their engines.
2. The advantages of J1349 over bhp ratings are not as big of a deal on smaller engines as it is on larger Engines for the simple reason that smaller engines, mini ones in particular have little to no power robbing accessories before the PTO to be taken out of the equation.

In the end your faith in the values are meaningless if you don't have something to compare it to. Personally I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that something with slightly larger displacement has slightly more horsepower.

[sdk1959]

Absolutely not. J1349 is a raw rating fudging the numbers up or down would de-certify the rating. There are specific formulas used the calculate the J1349 values, deviation from these will render the numbers garbage within the eyes of the SAE.


This simply means that on engines that require them... alternators, water pumps, power steering pumps, etc within the serpentine belt track cannot be excluded, the engine has to be run with a stock breather, a catalytic converter and muffler, also if a gear driven pump, a stator, etc is part of the engine it too must be included. The spec ends at the PTO.


The manual gives the RPMs, it's 8500rpm. http://www.stihlusa.com/stihl_ownersmanuals/FS130_Manual.pdf

I am not arguing that J1349 isn't better then a ISO 8893, bhp rating. I am not nor ever would make the claim. What I am saying is two things:
1. Two like real numbers even if they are imperfect are better points of comparison then One better one and one Imaginary. Both companies provided bhp ratings for their engines.
2. The advantages of J1349 over bhp ratings are not as big of a deal on smaller engines as it is on larger Engines for the simple reason that smaller engines, mini ones in particular have little to no power robbing accessories before the PTO to be taken out of the equation.

In the end your faith in the values are meaningless if you don't have something to compare it to. Personally I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that something with slightly larger displacement has slightly more horsepower.

Let's just agree that bhp and Net Power HP are 2 different ratings and one includes losses and the other doesn't. And yes it may be only a small difference say ~10% but it is still a difference.

Curious thing about the Stihl bhp spec given @8500 RPM and Honda's Net Power HP @ 7000 RPM. I suspected these 4-stroke hybrid engine's power-band shadow those of 2-stroke engines- peak hp at high RPM's which could significantly shorten engine life if used in that range constantly.

The hp spec at least for this Stihl 4-stroke hybrid engine does seem to confirm that though I think the 4-stroke hybrid engines have a little more torque at lower RPM's than 2-stroke engines but not as much as true 4-stroke engines.

[K/B]

Vibration? Seeing is believing in this case. I think it's pretty clear from the video this engine has a lot of vibration otherwise Stihl would not have spent the time and money to mount the BR600 hybrid 4-stroke backpack blower engine on a free floating base if excess vibration were not the case.

Makita does not have to mount their true 4-stroke engine on a free floating base for their BBX7600 backpack blower because excess vibration is not a issue with this engine and not needed. Here is the link again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gYdAOdQkAU

Hi, The Robin/Makita unit certainly is a great machine, however you are incorrect on several points, first of all it is mounted on rubber vibration isolators, 3 of them to be exact. Also, when you talk about how much experience Honda has with 4-cycle engines compared to Shindaiwa or Stihl, keep in mind that their (and Robin's) micro 4-stroke engine technology for handheld equipment is relatively new (Honda first introduced it in 1997) and went through just as much or more "growing pains" as did Shindaiwa's C4/Hybrid4 and Stihls' 4-Mix. Also, the technology being used in Shindaiwa's hybrid engine was first developed in 1985, it certainly is not a new design.
Using synthetic oil is not a requirement with the Shindaiwa Hybrid4, due to it's cleaner full lubrication method, whereas the Stihl 4-Mix uses bypass lubrication, and they do recommend full synthetic for this engine, to avoid carbon issues.

[sdk1959]

Hi, The Robin/Makita unit certainly is a great machine, however you are incorrect on several points, first of all it is mounted on rubber vibration isolators, 3 of them to be exact. Also, when you talk about how much experience Honda has with 4-cycle engines compared to Shindaiwa or Stihl, keep in mind that their (and Robin's) micro 4-stroke engine technology for handheld equipment is relatively new (Honda first introduced it in 1997) and went through just as much or more "growing pains" as did Shindaiwa's C4/Hybrid4 and Stihls' 4-Mix. Also, the technology being used in Shindaiwa's hybrid engine was first developed in 1985, it certainly is not a new design.
Using synthetic oil is not a requirement with the Shindaiwa Hybrid4, due to it's cleaner full lubrication method, whereas the Stihl 4-Mix uses bypass lubrication, and they do recommend full synthetic for this engine, to avoid carbon issues.

There is a big difference between Stihl mounting a engine on a free floating base vs Makita mounting it on rubber vibration insulators. Mounting a engine on rubber insulators is a given, not true with mounting a engine on a free floating base. Can you imagine if your car or truck's engine was mounted on a free floating base instead of rubber motor mounts? Try working on that engine while it's running and shaking, be a lot of mechanics cursing.:rolleyes:

The growing pains with Honda were very minor with Honda's original OHV micro-engine version. It's problem was it could not be stored in a certain position without engine oil seeping into the combustion chamber. They probably sent their dealers a memo to tell customers not to store it that way till they came out with the newer OHC version. Not a big deal. When I bought my Honda trimmer the Stihl/Honda dealer didn't have a newer OHC model for me to demo so brought out a older OHV version they used to trim around the shop. It started and ran fine, had excellent throttle control so I bought a new one.

For your other point, Honda has decades of experience building other small 4-stroke engines long before their 1997 introduction of their micro 4-stroke. The 1969 50cc (49cc) Honda Mini-Trail should come to mind and enjoyed over a 20 year run. Also the 70cc version too. Motorized bike enthusiasts use the Chinese clone of the
engine for their bikes.The only major thing that is really new over earlier engines is the slinger oil-mist lubrication so the micro 4-stroke engine can be run in any position just like a 2-stroke engine.

Both Stihl and Shindaiwa engineering capabilities don't even begin to compare to Honda's, Makita or Robin/Subaru plus Stihl and Shindaiwa's scant mass production experience(sorry building a limited run for the military does not count as real production experience) building 4-stroke engines makes the reality clear- they are not in the same class.

Give Stihl and Shindaiwa engineering staff a engineering time challenge to develop a new product vs giving the same challenge to Honda, Makita, Robin/Subaru
and the Stihl and Shindaiwa engineering depts would still be working with drawings while Honda, Makita and Robin/Subaru would have working prototypes.

http://www.hondamuseum.com/hallOfFame.asp?pg=general&bike=AZ50&name=1969%20Z50%20Mini%20Trail

[K/B]

There is a big difference between Stihl mounting a engine on a free floating base vs Makita mounting it on rubber vibration insulators. Mounting a engine on rubber insulators is a given, not true with mounting a engine on a free floating base. Can you imagine if your car or truck's engine was mounted on a free floating base instead of rubber motor mounts? Try working on that engine while it's running and shaking, be a lot of mechanics cursing.:rolleyes:

The growing pains with Honda were very minor with Honda's original OHV micro-engine version. It's problem was it could not be stored in a certain position without engine oil seeping into the combustion chamber. They probably sent their dealers a memo to tell customers not to store it that way till they came out with the newer OHC version. Not a big deal. When I bought my Honda trimmer the Stihl/Honda dealer didn't have a newer OHC model for me to demo so brought out a older OHV version they used to trim around the shop. It started and ran fine, had excellent throttle control so I bought a new one.

For your other point, Honda has decades of experience building other small 4-stroke engines long before their 1997 introduction of their micro 4-stroke. The 1969 50cc (49cc) Honda Mini-Trail should come to mind and enjoyed over a 20 year run. Also the 70cc version too. Motorized bike enthusiasts use the Chinese clone of the
engine for their bikes.The only major thing that is really new over earlier engines is the slinger oil-mist lubrication so the micro 4-stroke engine can be run in any position just like a 2-stroke engine.

Both Stihl and Shindaiwa engineering capabilities don't even begin to compare to Honda's, Makita or Robin/Subaru plus Stihl and Shindaiwa's scant mass production experience(sorry building a limited run for the military does not count as real production experience) building 4-stroke engines makes the reality clear- they are not in the same class.

Give Stihl and Shindaiwa engineering staff a engineering time challenge to develop a new product vs giving the same challenge to Honda, Makita, Robin/Subaru
and the Stihl and Shindaiwa engineering depts would still be working with drawings while Honda, Makita and Robin/Subaru would have working prototypes.

http://www.hondamuseum.com/hallOfFame.asp?pg=general&bike=AZ50&name=1969%20Z50%20Mini%20Trail

:laugh: You are too funny!:laugh:

[ratfink]

:laugh: You are too funny!:laugh:

You're telling me! :dizzy: