How can one make EM ?

[replenish&subdue]

About 10 years ago I was in Japan and a friend of my wife was given a book byTeruo Higa,An Earth Saving Revolution. I didn't take it seriously at the time but now having been re-introduced into organics am more open.
At the time we did find it worked to eliminate odors from my dog and we thought it helped with the chicken run and the garbage compost.
Now I am wanting to experiment with soil.I found a u-tube and sight that tells how to make bokashi but in that recipe doesn't say how to do the EM. I know the basic ingredients (yeast,lactic acid bacteria,photosyn. bacteria) but I am not a chemist and hope someone out there might be able to help.
I see that Tim Wilson had mentioned EM more than once. Hope to pull out Tim and ask how is it (EM) taking off. It sure looked good on the runway.

[ICT Bill]

You are right it is a lactic acid brew or ferment

I have no experience myself but am curious

I am such a novice at EM that I am not sure if it is sprayed or eaten, I see probiotic often in the same conversation

Maybe Tim will chime in

[atouchofnature]

At the risk of sounding foolish .......

What is EM?

[NattyLawn]

EM has a few names, Effective Microorganisms or Effective Microbes are a few. It's a microbial consortia with powerful anti-oxidative properties. It has MANY uses in lawn and tree care, around the home for odor, cleaning (clogged drains, a Pledge like cleaner), bioremediation (I think it was used after Katrina), etc.

As far as making EM Mother Culture or EM-1, that's probably not going to happen. Cultures are very expensive and the likelihood that you might fail to grow out the mother culture is somewhat high. What most people do is purchase the mother culture from a reputable source (I think there are 2-3 in the US) and then Extend it. Usually that requires adding molasses or some other foods and further fermenting the product.

The EM mother culture can be ingested by humans. If the pH is below 3.2-3.3 it can be used by us. Anything higher should be used for other purposes. Typically, we use the mother culture for drinking, and the extended for everything else.

If you want more info, please go Vinny Pinto's page and check things out. He has written 2 Advanced brewing books on EM, and is regarded as the guy who knows his stuff in the US. If you're going to extend EM, his books are a must. Tim will chime in also when he gets on here...

http://www.vinnypinto.us/products-informational-1.html
http://eminfo.vmicrobial.info/index.html#Introduction

[replenish&subdue]

Thanks Natty,for the start. As Bill says,"The next frontier...is under your feet."-perhaps.That is,EM has been around awhile.While I'm here there are things,products that have been around awhile but even in the "green scene"we sometimes seem to be stuck on fad like or "name brand" products and are not as open as we think we are. In being open I don't mean naive but we test these things and approve in our ouw experience what "works".
Let me give two examples and maybe others will want to share their secrets. One is cedar oil for insect control. I have a product that I attach to my irrigation system that disperses the pleasant aroma of cedar oil. It works. I have sold 10 without advertising. But when I presented it at an "organic" seminar of a leading organization the "scientists poo pooed cedar oil. I think they been there done that but done did it in an ineffective way. I really don't want to go into cedar oil but it controls a whole array of insects but doesn't harm lady bugs,bees or butterflies. It kills the eggs and larva of mosquitoes,fleas,flies...ect. Meanwhile the organic people push a product,pyrethrins,which is natural but is not safe. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it is safe,example is snake venom.Well there is much proof I could say about cedar oil but moving on cause I need to go to work.
i do want to touch on the second and leave you guessing.I tested a product this summer on a zoysia lawn that is natural (from a vegetable) and found in the first application killed clover flat dead. I applied two more applications about two weeks apart and the plantains and other broadleaves were finished off by the second application.By the third most of the black medic was killed.(The same more so was killed first appl.,so I don't know why the other two didn't completely finish it off.) The violets I think are good as dead.The only other weed was crabgrass which it didn't kill but this product claims to be able tp prevent it. This vegetable acts as a pre 7 postemergent and a fertilizer.The grass has a good green tone and is not a bit discolored by the treatments and that was in 85-92 degree weather. They say do not apply above 85. perhaps if the plants were growing more actively I might of had even better results. As it were only some black medic remained.
My point is this,I tested and proved to myself and those I sold the cedar oil product to that it is an natural product that has few peers in the "organic " field. I tested it myself the last almost two years. The vegetable product looks very promising.What are our alternatives???And Em,well that is on the table.
Let's not get stuck in the mud,nothing germinates in mud.i just needed to let out some air.

[replenish&subdue]

Thanks Natty,for the start. As Bill says,"The next frontier...is under your feet."-perhaps.That is,EM has been around awhile.While I'm here there are things,products that have been around awhile but even in the "green scene"we sometimes seem to be stuck on fad like or "name brand" products and are not as open as we think we are. In being open I don't mean naive but we test these things and approve in our our experience what "works".
Let me give two examples and maybe others will want to share their secrets. One is cedar oil for insect control. I have a product that I attach to my irrigation system that disperses the pleasant aroma of cedar oil. It works. I have sold 10 without advertising. But when I presented it at an "organic" seminar of a leading organization the "scientists poo pooed cedar oil. I think they been there done that but done did it in an ineffective way. I really don't want to go into cedar oil but it controls a whole array of insects but doesn't harm lady bugs,bees or butterflies. It kills the eggs and larva of mosquitoes,fleas,flies...etc. Meanwhile the organic people push a product,pyrethrins,which is natural but is not safe. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it is safe,example is snake venom.Well there is much proof I could say about cedar oil but moving on cause I need to go to work.
i do want to touch on the second and leave you guessing.I tested a product this summer on a zoysia lawn that is natural (from a vegetable) and found in the first application killed clover flat dead. I applied two more applications about two weeks apart and the plantains and other broad-leaves were finished off by the second application.By the third most of the black medic was killed.(The same more so was killed first appl.,so I don't know why the other two didn't completely finish it off.) The violets I think are good as dead.The only other weed was crabgrass which it didn't kill but this product claims to be able to prevent it. This vegetable acts as a pre & postemergent and a fertilizer.The grass has a good green tone and is not a bit discolored by the treatments and that was in 85-92 degree weather. They say do not apply above 85. perhaps if the plants were growing more actively I might of had even better results. As it were only some black medic remained.
My point is this,I tested and proved to myself and those I sold the cedar oil product to that it is an natural product that has few peers in the "organic " field. I tested it myself the last almost two years. The vegetable product looks very promising.What are our alternatives???And Em,well that is on the table.
Let's not get stuck in the mud,nothing germinates in mud.i just needed to let out some air.

I corrected miss-spellings.

[NattyLawn]

Thanks Natty,for the start. As Bill says,"The next frontier...is under your feet."-perhaps.That is,EM has been around awhile.While I'm here there are things,products that have been around awhile but even in the "green scene"we sometimes seem to be stuck on fad like or "name brand" products and are not as open as we think we are. In being open I don't mean naive but we test these things and approve in our ouw experience what "works".
Let me give two examples and maybe others will want to share their secrets. One is cedar oil for insect control. I have a product that I attach to my irrigation system that disperses the pleasant aroma of cedar oil. It works. I have sold 10 without advertising. But when I presented it at an "organic" seminar of a leading organization the "scientists poo pooed cedar oil. I think they been there done that but done did it in an ineffective way. I really don't want to go into cedar oil but it controls a whole array of insects but doesn't harm lady bugs,bees or butterflies. It kills the eggs and larva of mosquitoes,fleas,flies...ect. Meanwhile the organic people push a product,pyrethrins,which is natural but is not safe. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it is safe,example is snake venom.Well there is much proof I could say about cedar oil but moving on cause I need to go to work.
i do want to touch on the second and leave you guessing.I tested a product this summer on a zoysia lawn that is natural (from a vegetable) and found in the first application killed clover flat dead. I applied two more applications about two weeks apart and the plantains and other broadleaves were finished off by the second application.By the third most of the black medic was killed.(The same more so was killed first appl.,so I don't know why the other two didn't completely finish it off.) The violets I think are good as dead.The only other weed was crabgrass which it didn't kill but this product claims to be able tp prevent it. This vegetable acts as a pre 7 postemergent and a fertilizer.The grass has a good green tone and is not a bit discolored by the treatments and that was in 85-92 degree weather. They say do not apply above 85. perhaps if the plants were growing more actively I might of had even better results. As it were only some black medic remained.
My point is this,I tested and proved to myself and those I sold the cedar oil product to that it is an natural product that has few peers in the "organic " field. I tested it myself the last almost two years. The vegetable product looks very promising.What are our alternatives???And Em,well that is on the table.
Let's not get stuck in the mud,nothing germinates in mud.i just needed to let out some air.

Sounds like you were using a beet juice product, like the Green Guardian for the weeds.

[replenish&subdue]

Sounds like you were using a beet juice product, like the Green Guardian for the weeds.

Yes,it's beet juice and I have only done one test which was successful. And so my question is, have you experimented with it?,if so what were your conclusions? and/or do you know others that have found it suitable to have as part of their organic (natural)lawn program.
And back to my point. To me it is quite a breakthrough to kill broadleaves so successfully and naturally. I wonder why I do not hear of it when in organic lawn seminars when the subject is weed control.They say they do not yet have a successful broadleaf control. I guess it it not "approved" in the organic circle I run in. Perhaps it is cost but I find it feasible. Or maybe the name is not out in front enough although my understanding it has been around enough to get peoples attention.
I just thought when a successful organic or natural broadleaf control came around it would be like finally discovering a cure for cancer or something like that. Guess I'll be quiet.

[phasthound]

Guess I'll be quiet.

Don't you dare! :)

[ICT Bill]

I thought this thread was about EM???

do you make EM with beet juice??

[replenish&subdue]

Yes,thread is about Em and I'm waiting for Tim Wilson to move away from his microscope and give some input. I have been so distracted myself that I have not even looked into the link Kiril gave us.
After 12 yrs. doing chemicals,I now have something to be excited about. It all began with the discovery of the soil food web. Just a few days ago I considered my forum name,"replenish & subdue". This comes from Genesis 1:28. You would think it should say "subdue & replenish" but that is what manmade chemicals do,they first kill then the plant is kept "alive" by synthetic fertilizers. In the beginning it was not so. Life is first introduced and the life subdues the bad. Guess who gets all the glory? Not man but the Lord of Life. In the beginning ,"it was good". Life is meant to take care of itself unless we get in the way with our better ideal. I am only beginning to discover with the help of others. And frankly I am learning to give back the glory to the Creator and not glory in creation itself.
To me all this "global warming" and the earth being shaken is simply God trying to get our attention and not so much punish us. Has He been so long a time among us and we have not recolonized Him? But man will seek to save himself and continue to make a mess of things. God created man that he should seek Him and find Him.
We say the foundation of the organic business is compost and it is. Isn't it a paradox that decomposing dying matter brings life? It was the death of the Lord that brought Life into the world for all mankind.
"The hour is come that the Son of man should be glorified. Truly,truly,I say unto you,Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die,it abides alone;but if it die,it bears much fruit."
The end of all things is to be found in the Beginning. (see Isaiah 46:9-10,if you have scriptures)

[ICT Bill]

I think it great that you found a new way to maintain properties with sustainable practices but, if I may, the Jesuit site is on another forum. Not bashing in any way, shape or form and peace be with you

It just seems to me, a little off topic

[nc-jrock]

replenish&subdue where can I get some of that "organic or natural" broad leaf control you are using? I would like to give it a try.

Thanks in advance.

[replenish&subdue]

www.thegreenguardian.com
I suggest asking questions as it pertains to how you plan to use it. My experiment had very good results. I have not tried the product in any other temperature or conditions then when I used it three times over a five/six week period. I plan to call again myself to inquire about using it as a pre & postemerge for winter weeds. I found them very helpful and willing to give their time.

[NattyLawn]

www.thegreenguardian.com
I suggest asking questions as it pertains to how you plan to use it. My experiment had very good results. I have not tried the product in any other temperature or conditions then when I used it three times over a five/six week period. I plan to call again myself to inquire about using it as a pre & postemerge for winter weeds. I found them very helpful and willing to give their time.

I've been using the product for the last 3 years. Most people on this site wrote it off.

[Marcos]

i do want to touch on the second and leave you guessing.I tested a product this summer on a zoysia lawn that is natural (from a vegetable) and found in the first application killed clover flat dead. I applied two more applications about two weeks apart and the plantains and other broadleaves were finished off by the second application.By the third most of the black medic was killed.(The same more so was killed first appl.,so I don't know why the other two didn't completely finish it off.) The violets I think are good as dead.The only other weed was crabgrass which it didn't kill but this product claims to be able tp prevent it. This vegetable acts as a pre 7 postemergent and a fertilizer.The grass has a good green tone and is not a bit discolored by the treatments and that was in 85-92 degree weather. They say do not apply above 85. perhaps if the plants were growing more actively I might of had even better results. As it were only some black medic remained.
My point is this,I tested and proved to myself and those I sold the cedar oil product to that it is an natural product that has few peers in the "organic " field. I tested it myself the last almost two years. The vegetable product looks very promising.What are our alternatives???And Em,well that is on the table.
Let's not get stuck in the mud,nothing germinates in mud.i just needed to let out some air.

replenish,

2 1/2 years ago in S. Indiana around Bloomington while my family & I were on a mini vacation I ran into a vendor at a streetside farmer's market who said he did a lot of organic lawn care. Since this market was close by where we were staying, I ended up going back there a couple of times and comparing notes.
One of the things this older gentleman & his wife told me is that they'd been using beet juice derived from their own certified organic garden to kill weeds for a number of years. Needless to say, I was very intrigued!
I can remember specifically asking him what types of weeds beet juice would kill. Just like you, he mentioned clover. But he also mentioned ground ivy & spotted spurge. I had a distinct feeling in my gut walking away after the 3rd & last chat that there might be some key factor he was not willing to give up. Some kind of trademark secret, if you will.
Later as that spring unfolded I purchased some bonifide organic beet juice from a small lot just south of Dayton OH and tried it out just as you did on some controlled plots. Instead, what I got was a varying amount of curling here & there and almost 0% control of anything, even after 2X to 3X apps all within about a two week period. So I put that baby to rest at that point.

Seeing you come on here announcing some success heartens me again on the overall subject of beet juice for weed control.
After having thought about it for a fair amount of time now, I'm thinking that the old man's untold secret MUST HAVE had something to do with either distillation or fermentation of beet juice.
What else could it be?
Essentially that's the SAME difference between having a run-of the-mill 3-way amine blend vs. a stronger & meaner ester formulation in your tank!
The old man's secret had to be in the ALCOHOL! :p

[nc-jrock]

Can any one tell me if this product realistically can be used as a selective herbicide?

[ICT Bill]

Can any one tell me if this product realistically can be used as a selective herbicide?

My suggestion is to try it, what works in Ohio or Michigan may not have the same effect in NC, for one you have a much longer season and probably much different sets of weed pressure and soil

You will never know unless you try it out

[NattyLawn]

Do a search on here for the Green Guardian. There used to be a forum, but I don't think that exists anymore. I had a few pics as well and livingsoils. He doesn't seem to come around here anymore.

[ecoguy]

Hey everyone. It's been almost a year since this post was laid to rest but I'm curious if there is any more info on Green Guardian? The product almost sounds to good to be true. I've ordered a bunch and eager to try it. My customers are chomping at the bit.

Regarding EM, I use it all the time. It seems to work best when used as a lawn multivitamin, for lack of a better term. The challenge is weeds love it just as much as grass, especially clover. You must eliminate the weed population or you will be hosting a turf war. Believe me, I've seen this first hand much to my dismay and the dismay of my customers. They key is to eliminate the weeds as much as possible then incorporate EM as part of a healthy soil building program. I also use EM on our edibles and plants. They look great.