Kawi 25 hp - Intermittent shutdown?

[MJfromMD]

I have a 2008 Hustler Z. It uses the Kawi FH721V engine. I am hopelessly in love with this mower and consistently amazed with the brute power sourced by the Kawasaki engine. The ONLY issue I have had with my engine is a very rare and mysterious "involuntary shut down:".

Beginning with my second day of ownership (and since then at various times when heavy into my cutting adventure) the engine just shuts itself off without warning or reason - similar to what might be experienced if running out of fuel.

When I try to re-start, it just spins over without firing. I wait and try again - resting it a few minutes each time.

After maybe 5 minutes or so, it fires. Then it does start, but begins to run a bit rich...as if it is recovering from being flooded. Then it quickly recovers and runs normal - as if it never happened.

It will then continue to run perfect...perhaps for months before reoccurring. I think it has happened 4 times total, (in the 2 seasons I have had it).

The root cause has yet to be discovered. Oil/Fuel levels, fuel filter condition, and other simple checks always show positive.

Being so intermittent, I am not taking it to the dealer for warranty repair. I mentioned it to the dealer where I purchased the mower and he agreed that finding the cause under the circumstances is highly unlikely.

So even though it is still under warranty, I am sort of at a stand-still with trouble shooting unless it goes hard-down.

The issue haunts me as one of those minor things you all but forget about until it suddenly happens again. If I was doing this for hire or it prevented me from finishing the job it might get more serious attention, but as I said - if it doesn't happen often or go hard down, it's a tough one to resolve.


Do these engines have auto shutdown sensors for oil, temp, etc. prone to defect? Any same-experiences to share from the more knowledgeable crowd?

[mowerconsultant]

I forwarded your email to our regional service manager on Friday, you should hear from him soon.

Pj

[dwilder54]

suffer with same with my Kawasaki .I went same route contacting Hustler with no resolve of poblem .GOOD LUCK.

[Sharpcut 1]

Get rid of the little Kawasaki fuel filter, check your fuel lines for cracks, install a Kohler 25 050-13 (I think) fuel filter. MAKE SURE YOUR FUEL PICKUPS IN TANK ARE GOING TO THE FRONT(DEEP) PART OF THE TANK. Use a metal wire to pull the pickup out of the tank if needed. If problem peresists, take carb apart and replaced o-rings in carb, on jets and under jet tower. These o-rings swell in certain fuels, and cause the carb to act up. The Kohler engines on Hustlers don't have this problem. Had the rubber o-rings swell on a half dozer Kaws on Hustlers this past year. Fuel testers are also available from Briggs to test Alcohol contern of fuel. More than 10% no good, alcohol very corrosive and will allow rubber o-rings to swell too much.

[Borgeskm]

I posted the same problem with my Kawasaki powered unit in the spring - got the same shoulder shrug from Hustler and dealer.

I changed my fuel filter to no avail. I share your frustration with respect to the potential and enthusiasm I initially had for the machine but the intermittent engine failure is unacceptable.

Mine occurs on hot days when going over bumps... the unit sputters out and catches itself just before completely stalling (purchased new three years ago, unit has < 130 hrs).

I'm too busy to mess around with problematic equipment, will simply replace mine with a Kubota next year; dealt with this issue for the past two years.

[Sharpcut 1]

Guys,
I'm a Hustler dealer in Michigan, and TRUST me, this is a Kawasaki Engine problem, not a Hustler problem. I have replaced all the o-rings in the carbs, and bypassed the fuel solenoid, and went as far as replacing carb for customer at my cost because Kawasaki claims no problem. We have had no problem with them after performing the modifications I spoke of in the above post. All of you experiencing the problem will have an internally vented carb. I would be willing to bet all serial #'s start with 05 and above.

The guys on here with low hours have an even worse problem, because if they fill the tanks up, it probably takes 2 months for them to go through the 12 gallons, making the O-ring I speak of swell even worse, because the gas is stale.

Let me say this. Our inventory is 90% Kohler and Honda. We stock the Kawasaki for those who are'nt willing to step up to the plate and spend the few extra dollars. The BIGGER, not new, fuel filter, and the fuel lines issue is critical in solving your problem. those little Kawasaki filters don't cut it, as far as keeping up.

As to the poster that has the problem with it cutting out after hitting a bump, check the bottom of your seat THROUGLY, it may be cracked where the safety switch goes into the seat bottom, allowing the switch to momentary shut off till it flexes back. I have seen that happen as well.

Good Luck. JOHN

[ybysaiah]

Same deal with my Kawasaki - the "workaround" for me is to turn the fuel valve to "off" as soon as I hear it start to sputter, run it for about 15 seconds (the sputtering stops immediately), and then re-open the fuel valve.

Doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to when it happens but it is much less frustrating now...

[MJfromMD]

OK folks....here we are again. I've read the posts faithfully offered in these threads following my original one. I don't think this thing is yet understood. I personally don't believe I have a fuel issue.

First off, as I said...the plague started on day #2? That means brand-new filters were less than 4 hrs "used" with fresh gas filling both tanks. My use is Harry Homeowner, even though my 3 acre terrain is lawnmower hell. The weekly task never interrupts proper service and it's always done at the prescribed intervals.

Next, I am not casting doubt on anyone else's opinion here - I am thankful for all the help - but when the shut-down happens, I believe it to be electrical. Most times it is just like the key was turned off, but I noticed last time there was a very brief miss before it died.

Not to discount the experience of my more learned colleges on this forum, but just stating that my situation is as described and seems to indicate a lack of volts and not juice.

When cranking it after "death", I have seen fuel running out of the exhaust pipe drain hole - but no fire is there to light it off. Of course, after witnessing this, I use common sense from there. I am also open to consider the other more involved things that could be causing this, but I tend to start basic. No spark is fairly certain to be a problem - it's not a diesel.

But each and every time it occurs, the remedy has been to let it sit and cool. Then it fires immediately- rough running at first, burning thru the flooded condition (smokes & runs rich for a few seconds) but then it catches up and runs fine for hours, or perhaps 8-10 three-hour cuttings before it happens again.

That is.... until this last weekend. This time it re-occurred 3 times within 30 mins. and I finally had to let it sit and come back later to put it away. The next day, it also did it once again after only 10 mins of cutting - but after I got it going again, I cut flawlessly until I was finished, (for two hours).

I could of course be wrong, but that same MO always follows. When it does start, she's chokin' on the excess fuel built up and it takes a few seconds to burn it out before it runs normal again. But after it does, it's biz as usual. But my concerned heightened after this last episode, when it repeated the problem several times in a single day.

I agree with one post - This is a Kawi FH21V engine issue (and not Hustler). I say this because when tanks are full it won't matter where the fuel pick up flops to, as long as it is unrestricted. Moving position of the tank switch had no affect during the problem or in recovery. And as stated, fuel was running out the a$$ when I cranked it. If there is an ignition module on these things, I would opt to do a blind replacement, given the choice.

I called my "dealer" where I purchased. (Since the post saying I would receive a reply by Friday never materialized - or else forgot to put a month and year to the Friday they had in mind). I am hoping to get action since my 3 yr. warranty runs out in less than a year. We'll see.

I must say that despite the quality I assess this machine to possess, the customer service from Hustler is a bit disappointing. I would still prefer this machine to the competition offerings in its class from JD. But I am not mounted on it for 6 hours every day like many of you.

If there is any "major" revelation, I will report it back to the forum. Thanks for ALL your inputs fellas.

[mowerconsultant]

Mj,
Please email me again, I can assure you that I did email my regional manager service manager, I am not sure where the connection was lost between him and you and or your dealer.

Pj

[ybysaiah]

MJ,

Try turning the fuel valve to "off" as soon as it cuts off and then restart. Your symptoms sound exactly like mine and that's the only way I could get a quick recovery without all the waiting and mess. Mine eventually would give me enough of a warning (missing, sputtering) that I could turn the fuel valve off and catch it as I described in an earlier post. Yours may be a completely different issue but it's worth a try. The good news for me is that after sitting through the off-season with fuel stabilizer in it the unit started fine and has yet to cut off unexpectedly in 3 mowings of 6+ acres - now to find some wood to knock on...

[MJfromMD]

After my most recent post, somebody got busy! I'm not sure if it was PJ, Hustler, or just my squeaky wheel causing maximum irritation, but things are happening now.

I guess I was wrong about "spark" being the issue. The actual problem can cause so much fuel to run into the carb that it runs too rich, floods out totally, or even cause a slew of other ill symptoms. ALL can be related to this same root cause.

It looks like "Sharpcut1" has some experience with this, according to his post. From what I am being told, this widespread problem boils down to the adding of Ethanol to our fuel. It wasn't enough that we are paying 4 times the already-profitable cost for gasoline, they had to add Ethanol to lessen the mileage obtained while reeking havoc on our engine components. Perfectly logical. (Sorry, I digressed).

Anyway - I am also grateful for the response from "Mowerconsultant", who must have also stirred things a bit. Evidently my local dealer caught it from all sides.

My Hustler dealer called me this morning. After discussing the issue on the subject, Hustler/Kawasaki stepped up to the plate. The good news for me is that it will be fixed under warranty. My dealer remembered my reporting this last year - and hadn't blown it off as I had feared. He said that Ethanol as an additive is the best thing that's ever happened to his repair shop.

Kawasaki is so sure that the problem is the distortion of carburetor components, (O-rings,etc.) caused by Ethanol in the fuel, they will send the seal replacement repair kit to the repair shops for free - before the machines are even examined. So my kit is on the way, and I will post the outcome ASAP. Thanks everyone. This is the best forum.

[mowerconsultant]

Good to hear! I am sure your on the right track now, let us know how you make out.

Pj

[mickeyg]

I have two 2000 super Z's with the same motor. I had the same problem.
I went as far as replacing all the safety switches, by passing the safety switches, installing a new fuel pump, changed air filters, removed air filters, adding an electric fuel pump, changed fuels, new relays, new fuses, and yes .. even new carb(s) you name it I did it! And the motor still died and still sputtered when it started up and it still died! Sometimes it would run right and some days it would die and get this, it would die doing only left hand turns! I was ready to burn it it! It is very very frustrating, but there were signs and symptoms that I was overlooking because I was extremely frustrated. To make a long story short.. I changed the coil(s). How did I find out? When I went to start the motor up, I knew it was going to sputter, so while it was sputtering I disconnected one spark plug wire, no motor change. And when I disconnected the other spark plug wire, the motor died. BINGO!
Haven't had a problem since. Oh, and buy the way, I have the old style kawa motor, you know, the one with the bad oil design. But that's another post

[MJfromMD]

MickeyG could actually have "THE" answer on this thing. Driven by frustration I easily trusted in the canned explanation provided me concerning the fuel system components. It does seem to be the path of least resistance.

But it has stuck in my mind that it originally appeared to me as a "firing" problem, rather than one relating to fuel.

So when the machine is in the shop for the "kit" quick-fix, I will be hammering on the possibility that the coil is a real suspect. In the meantime - next time it happens - I will try the plug wire.

Thanks again to you guys that run these things for a living. Your experiences are priceless - particularly with the strange and erratic problems that take months to figure out. It is a great advantage gleaning info from someone else who has already paid the price. Strange that it isn't the dealers that are up on these things.

Stay tuned -

[MJfromMD]

Just to update the thread on the intermittent shutdowns, it's not good news.

My Hustler dealer never did get back to me to initiate bringing the mower in for that Kawasaki "miracle fix" kit install. I stopped by and left him a message but he has not got back to me on that either.

I really doubt this will ever be resolved now. I am flopping back to my original opinion that it is an intermittent electrical component (coil, etc.) rather than a fuel issue. Ethenol is bad, but the machine runs great until "it" happens.

"It" has not done the deed again since my original posting and I have run the mower as the grass dictated ever since. But it will happen again.

So I am reporting the status rather than leave it as it was......"positive".

Don't you just hate it when you buy something - and the manufacturer, distributor, salesperson, and tech crew are all your best friends.....until "it" happens?

You then become the red headed step child and the bottom falls out.

Your money was spent with excitement, but both are now gone.

If anything "good" does happen, I'll post it. (But don;t hold your breath).

[MJfromMD]

Now that the season for me is nearly over, (and coincidentally - my "Z" warranty) I am guessing that my intermittent engine shutdown problem is officially "all mine". :help:

I visited my dealer only once or twice this summer and he didn't mention the pending issue one way or the other. He never did call as he said he would to arrange installation of the so-called "fuel system kit" that was supposedly issued to him by Kawasaki to remedy the situation. :confused:

However, the engine hasn't suffered another shut down problem since my original report. I just wanted to let you all know where it stands, (and probably where it will stay, since my dealer is faking Alzheimer on my account). ESPECIALLY now that my warranty is expired (3 yrs.) on most of the machine's parts. :cry:

After viewing some of the experiences documented in this thread by some of you sharing my frustrations, I did replace the stock in-line fuel filter with a generic one from my local hardware store. Its physically a bit larger, being rated to handle flow for fuel systems up to 80 hp on gasoline engines. But it shares the same size ports and filtration capabilities of the stock filter. It seems to work great, but I cannot say it cured "the" problem due to the unpredictable frequency at which it occurs. :nono:

So.....In signing off for 2010, I wanted to say, Thanks and good luck everyone! :waving:

Keep your blades sharp, oil checked, tires and zerks pumped! Thumbs Up

I hope to talk with you again next season. :clapping:

[MJfromMD]

Well now that it's nearing the end of 2011.....who cares about the ole 2008 Hustler Z?

By this time, I am sure you all have moved up to those new "X-One" and 2011 "Super Z" machines, which just have to be the absolute SHIZZLE!

(Uhh hum. Sorry - my testosterone). ANYway:

If any of you "out there" are still experiencing the phantom "Kawi shutdown" problem, I can now say with confidence, IT IS FINISHED.

Not thanks to my dealer, (who is no longer a Hustler dealer BTW) or a Rep, or even by sifting through info all the way to the end of the internet. It was resolved through trial and error efforts spawned from helpful hints gleanned from the expertise of this forum.

The problem was corrected by switching to the larger capacity fuel filter I installed (see my last post).

It is a generic, corregated paper filter in a translucent plastic "bulb-like" case, with the 1/4" nipple ports. The same one you see hanging on the blister card in the hardware store.

I believe the description on its card read "good on engines up to 80 HP".

Anyway, I am not sure if the OEM filter suffered from vapor lock or what - but I have been using this "type" filter since last season, without a single shutdown.

As I said, it is generic - and the one I installed again this year was similar, but the exact part number is not really critical.

What seems to be the ticket is its increased size/capacity. I estimate its size to be something like 1.5" diameter x 2.5" long. If need-be, I could get a mfgr/number, (if anyone asks) but I don't think it's necessary to get the exact-same model, but only to considerably increase the fuel capacity from that of the OEM unit.

Thanks for the interest. If anyone needs more info, let me know.