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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-25-2009, 10:24 PM
I just learned of a path light that will accept a MR16 lamp. The Troy Landscape Lighting G241 pathlight.

Apparently the MR16 lamp form will fit into the socket and body. I have not tried it yet, but have one on order.

Unfortunately, the fixture is not what many would consider "pro grade" as it is built with thin materials and suffers from poor fit and finish. On the up side, the finishes that they apply to their brass fixtures are supposedly quite nice.

http://www.troylandscapelighting.com/contents/troylandscape.asp

If you know of other path lights that accept an MR16 lamp please share. I know that Gambino has one, Winnona makes one, Sundown Designs make a whole series of them, Megabay fixtures can be adapted to them and apparently SPJ can make them if you have enough volume. Any others?

sprinkler guy
09-26-2009, 01:17 AM
Now that LEDs are being offered in a G4 base replacement lamp, what is the advantage of an MR-16 pathway light? My question is one of ingnorance, as I've never used an MR-16 pathlight.

By the way James, take a look at Troy's other lines. Some of their interior stuff is nice.

Pro-Scapes
09-27-2009, 11:24 PM
Troys interior stuff is pretty nice stuff. Some of it gets pretty expensive but then again most things worth having are.

Advantages to mr16 path...
Indirect view of lamp so they are ideal for areas that have a grade change.

The lamps last longer than a bi pin...

The hats are usually supported by a metal to metal connection vs supported by glass

Improved photo metrics for wider coverage.

The lamp is isolated from the hat in the ones we use therefore the hats remain barley warm to the touch

You can stack lenses altering output...color and even photometrics

I can get more light with a 10w mr16 path than I am able to with a 20w bi pin

In our experience using everything from 3156 to bi pins to wedge to mr16 paths there is no comparison. the mr16 ones that send the light straight up and reflect it off the hat produces a better output. I really need to get some pics of the 3 pool areas we have done with the Gambino pathlights. Very pleased with them. Even with a cheap 3w china LED and a frosted lens as a test the output was outstanding.

Pro-Scapes
09-27-2009, 11:32 PM
I just learned of a path light that will accept a MR16 lamp. The Troy Landscape Lighting G241 pathlight.

Apparently the MR16 lamp form will fit into the socket and body. I have not tried it yet, but have one on order.

Unfortunately, the fixture is not what many would consider "pro grade" as it is built with thin materials and suffers from poor fit and finish. On the up side, the finishes that they apply to their brass fixtures are supposedly quite nice.

http://www.troylandscapelighting.com/contents/troylandscape.asp

If you know of other path lights that accept an MR16 lamp please share. I know that Gambino has one, Winnona makes one, Sundown Designs make a whole series of them, Megabay fixtures can be adapted to them and apparently SPJ can make them if you have enough volume. Any others?


James I dont like the looks of that one. Is it supported by the lens or is there a brass collar that supports the hat ? I would look more at the sundown which was Designed by Mike G for them. I thought nightscaping would build anything for anyone ? I would worry about adapting fixtures to fit lamps they were not designed for. You always speak about the strict standards there. Once you change a fixture I would think the listing no longer applies.

With all the business you do between installs and selling LED's I would think having SPJ build one for you that you could sell and install? Just an idea.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-28-2009, 11:33 AM
James I dont like the looks of that one. Is it supported by the lens or is there a brass collar that supports the hat ? I would look more at the sundown which was Designed by Mike G for them. I thought nightscaping would build anything for anyone ? I would worry about adapting fixtures to fit lamps they were not designed for. You always speak about the strict standards there. Once you change a fixture I would think the listing no longer applies.

With all the business you do between installs and selling LED's I would think having SPJ build one for you that you could sell and install? Just an idea.

I have heard that the build is not great on the lamp and that the cone shaped hat is too steeped. Just thought I would bring up the topic again and see if there is more out there.

As for having fixtures built for me... I am not too interested in warehousing fixtures and most of the manufacturers who will do custom work require some pretty significant order volumes before they will participate. I have talked to different exec's at SPJ over the past couple of years and they NEVER get back to me with specifics. It is like they have no interest in doing business for some reason.

As for Sundown Designs, they have some nice looking path lights for sure. Nearly impossible to work with though as I learned some years ago. A shame really, they have quite a difficult reputation in the industry.

I will continue to wait on quality, production path lights that are designed for or can accept an MR16 lamp form.

Pro-Scapes
09-29-2009, 08:02 PM
I have heard that the build is not great on the lamp and that the cone shaped hat is too steeped. Just thought I would bring up the topic again and see if there is more out there.

As for having fixtures built for me... I am not too interested in warehousing fixtures and most of the manufacturers who will do custom work require some pretty significant order volumes before they will participate. I have talked to different exec's at SPJ over the past couple of years and they NEVER get back to me with specifics. It is like they have no interest in doing business for some reason.

As for Sundown Designs, they have some nice looking path lights for sure. Nearly impossible to work with though as I learned some years ago. A shame really, they have quite a difficult reputation in the industry.

I will continue to wait on quality, production path lights that are designed for or can accept an MR16 lamp form.


Have you tried the Winonna ? I have never seen it up close but didnt cae for the looks of it. I can tell you it has really changed things being able to use a quality Mr16 path. They cost a premium but are well worth it. With that said with all the mature trees around here I use more tree lights than I do pathlights it seems.

Pro-Scapes
09-29-2009, 10:23 PM
Here is some good shots of some MR16 paths in case anyone is wondering what the heck is being discussed.

klkanders
09-30-2009, 09:14 AM
Nice simple rugged fixture. I like it. What height is it or does it come in?
Does he have and use the same style in a brass?

JoeyD
09-30-2009, 01:13 PM
awesome looking fixture!

Pro-Scapes
10-01-2009, 12:02 AM
No brass. The collar is brass but the rest of the fixture is Copper. It does however have interchangeable hats. All of them have great photometrics. The lights in the photo are over 20 ft apart diagonally.

Alan B
10-01-2009, 06:35 AM
Billy,

First thanks for sharing.
1. I love the photo with the 20' diagonal path lights -- Mike sure does amazing work. Every pic I've seen of his is always a great shot and beautiful job. He's making me rethink my feelings about well lights. I never liked the idea of in-ground when you can be above ground, but Mikes use of them (i.e. putting in the grass) enables positioning farther out from large trees to get better canopy illumination. Back to the thread topic...

2. I believe the bigger reason for the great photometrics of Mikes paths is NOT the MR-16 but the welded plate inside the shade (great idea). Why do I say this? We have solid brass paths and tested them with 20w bi pins, 35 w bi pins and MR-16's. The really was not any difference, in fact the bi-pins had brighter and larger photometrics -- for our fixtures (which have pretty standard shade designs and angles of light deflection).

The bi pin illuminates 360, the mr directs most light straight up into the cone of the shade. With Mikes welded plate it enables the light to spread throughout the shade and not get as "trapped" in the top nipple area of the shade. We have experimented with this a bit and are actually in the midst of incorporating some deflectors to increase spread. (Our testing has been more with small convex disks -- small one above the light source, another larger one below the light source around the socket).

In short--Mike fixture looks great and the photometrics are great but not sure its the MR, but more the overall design of the fixture (welded plate and greater distance from lamp to shade). Also how do you seal and protect the socket with a glass lens with the big MR in there?

Pro-Scapes
10-01-2009, 08:02 AM
3 o rings seal a brass collar with a lens in the top. No tools are required to service this fixture. The glass lens is no larger than it would be on a standard bullet.

I cant remember a time when I used a 35w in a pathlight. Even on commercial jobs. I doubt Mike was thinking make it brighter make it brighter when he designed this fixture but rather conceal the glare....get a wide diffuse light... and build it tough.

As for the mr vs bi pin. Well certainly a bi pin puts our 360 degrees of light. Certainly you can have a big glass lens exposing that bi pin and get a wide wide light out of it. The advantage here is you cannot no matter what angle the light is viewed from see the filament (glare)

True ... the plate under the hat does no doubt help the spread and is a great design but I have yet to see a bi pin that is this well constructed. Your placing an MR in a fixture that was designed for a bi pin. This fixture was designed for reflector lamps. Your comparing apples to oranges here.

On the well lights. I also dont really use well lights but I do use the kim mini vaults on occasion and Use the unique novas all the time in hard scapes. Mike designed his well light and uses alot of them. Things grow too fast down here to be placing them among foilage and the only way I would place them in turf here is if I knew who was maintaining it. Seems wells are more popular with the west coast boys than the southern guys. Maybe Joey can tell us where they are most popular.

Alan B
10-01-2009, 08:52 AM
[QUOTE=Pro-Scapes;3209731]
This fixture was designed for reflector lamps. Your comparing apples to oranges here.
QUOTE]

Billy, we are in agreement. I didn't communicate well. I was noting that its the design, not the sole fact that its an MR lamp that makes Mikes fixture excellent (both in hiding glare and wide beam spread).

We've had requests (and seen posts here) about using an MR in paths or finding a path that can accept an MR and want people to know that its Mikes fixture that makes it work, and it may not be good enough to just find a path that can fit an MR.

JoeyD
10-01-2009, 11:11 AM
Well Lights are popular EVERYWHERE!!! Still one of the most sold lighting fixtures in the industry! The key to well lights is proper maintenance and installation/application. When used correctly Well Lights are awesome.....................back to the MR16 Path....We have been in discussion for some time on MR16 paths...........More to come in the future.........

Pro-Scapes
10-01-2009, 08:06 PM
Well Lights are popular EVERYWHERE!!! Still one of the most sold lighting fixtures in the industry! The key to well lights is proper maintenance and installation/application. When used correctly Well Lights are awesome.....................back to the MR16 Path....We have been in discussion for some time on MR16 paths...........More to come in the future.........

Im surprised nate hasnt made the first par 36 path yet :) I agree the design does have alot to do with the capabilites of the pathlight. The mr16 is a superior lamp in my opinion because it enables us to manipulate the light to suit our needs. In most bi pin paths you pop the lamp in and what you see is what you get. Sure you can make it brighter or dimmer to a degree but can you really fine tune it ? I would say 90% of the bi pin paths I have seen or used have the hats supported by the lens. I am sure nearly anyone who has been doing this a few years has found broken lenses on paths.

I know Alan has a path thats a metal to metal connection as does Coppermoon. These are a vast improvement over the glass supported units but still leave something to be desired when it comes to being able to hold up to abuse. Even the kichler moon and stars path which is a brass to brass connection was destroyed by my Labs wagging tail. The gambino mr16 path and CAST bronze paths are about the strongest lights I have seen when it comes to being able to take some abuse. I have hit both very hard to show clients how durable they are. Not something I would do with a glass supported pathlight.

irrig8r
10-01-2009, 08:48 PM
I would say 90% of the bi pin paths I have seen or used have the hats supported by the lens. I am sure nearly anyone who has been doing this a few years has found broken lenses on paths.

That's one area where Nightscaping responded to contractor complaints and came up with a good solution.

The Scottliter is not perfect, but the glass breaking issue was solved by adding brass posts, and the glare shielding and stem height are both adjustable. And with a frosted lens, there are no shadows from the posts.

http://nightscaping.com/scottliter.htm

http://nightscaping.com/images/fixture_larger/scottliter_gd_1507cu_new.jpg

I wouldn't be too surprised to see some version of an MR-16 pathlight coming from them one of these days... too bad it's taken so long.

irrig8r
10-01-2009, 08:53 PM
Im surprised nate hasnt made the first par 36 path yet :)

Weren't you supposed to stack those green plastic cans to make a bollard? :)

Pro-Scapes
10-02-2009, 08:44 AM
That's one area where Nightscaping responded to contractor complaints and came up with a good solution.

The Scottliter is not perfect, but the glass breaking issue was solved by adding brass posts, and the glare shielding and stem height are both adjustable. And with a frosted lens, there are no shadows from the posts.

http://nightscaping.com/scottliter.htm

http://nightscaping.com/images/fixture_larger/scottliter_gd_1507cu_new.jpg

I wouldn't be too surprised to see some version of an MR-16 pathlight coming from them one of these days... too bad it's taken so long.


Ya know. I have seen alot of this style of fixture in my area. I think its way to busy. I like clean simple lines. This fixture looks more like a UFO landing. Its just my opinion I know Unique has a similar hat but you can ask Joey. Most of the unique paths I have installed have always been the simple clean ones.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
10-02-2009, 09:04 AM
The Nightscaping Scottliter is actually a nice fixture. I order mine in the MI version which has a larger top disk. You never view the fixture from the angle of the photo above and it is a really nice, crisp, clean looking pathlight.

The telescoping stem is an excellent device, although I must say that Vista has recently trumped the NS stem with their new version. I think more manufacturers need to mimick this advancement. It provides a lot more flexibility to install fixtures in all types of applications.

irrig8r
10-08-2009, 10:14 AM
Billy,
I think it's a shame that those Gambino fixtures aren't widely available. They sure look like they do the job. Unless that photo was tweaked (and I don't think Mike would ever do that) they look like the perfect pathlight. The exclusivity factor would be a seller for some clients too I'll bet.

Are there a lot of inquiries from contractors who would like to try them? Do you think some major manufacturer might take his ideas and run with them, or maybe even buy a license to use his design?

irrig8r
10-08-2009, 10:25 AM
BTW, in looking at that design, and not having seen it taken apart, does the brass barrel unscrew (like a quality uplight) for lamp access, or do you have to take off the hat?

Alan B
10-08-2009, 11:21 AM
Billy,

Great points and I agree that MR16 paths can be a great design. But I do differ with you about why. I think its Mikes design of the fixture more than the MR16. But the lack of glare from an elevation change is definitely 1 aspect that IS due to the mr16 and not specifically Mikes fixture. Don't want to split hairs because I largely agree with you--but here is how I differ.

Troys interior stuff is pretty nice stuff. Some of it gets pretty expensive but then again most things worth having are.

Advantages to mr16 path...
Indirect view of lamp so they are ideal for areas that have a grade change.

Disagree if the path/area light has an adjustable height shade. For example on the VoltPro fixtures on our site, the complete assembly (shade and brass cradle that surrounds the socket) is adjustable and you can complete hide direct viewing of the lamp for elevation changes. Agree if you are talking about non-adjustable tops.

The hats are usually supported by a metal to metal connection vs supported by glass

As you mentioned ours are supported by brass, but true that many other brands use plastic/glass lens to support the hat.

Improved photo metrics for wider coverage.

Disagree. Mikes MR16 paths have great photometrics but not because of the mr16 but the design of fixture. His lamp is far from shade and shade has plate over recessed indentation of shade to help spread light. For example our china hats have ~14' diameter illumination area (not weak ambient light).

The lamp is isolated from the hat in the ones we use therefore the hats remain barley warm to the touch

Not sure what u mena by isolated (i.e. I don't know any bipins that touch the fixture other than the socket). Heat not an issue with ours either.

You can stack lenses altering output...color and even photometrics
Exc point and advantage. Adjustable height top does same thing though.

I can get more light with a 10w mr16 path than I am able to with a 20w bi pin

I think it depends on the fixture design more than the lamp. I'd be very surprised to see a good bi pin path design that put out less light than Mikes path with a 10w. But maybe his design is that good--but I feel if you are seeing that, it is because of Mikes fixture design not that an MR16 10w path puts out more light than a 20w bi pin path.

jshimmin
10-08-2009, 02:46 PM
100% of the light output of the MR-16 hits the reflector. A proper reflector will then disperse the light accordingly.
When using a bi-pin, the light is not aimed at the reflector, but some hits it. When you have to slide a shield around the bulb to get rid of a glare bomb, you decrease the amount of light hitting the reflector even more.

Pro-Scapes
10-08-2009, 04:48 PM
100% of the light output of the MR-16 hits the reflector. A proper reflector will then disperse the light accordingly.
When using a bi-pin, the light is not aimed at the reflector, but some hits it. When you have to slide a shield around the bulb to get rid of a glare bomb, you decrease the amount of light hitting the reflector even more.


Well said. Since an mr16 is esecitally a bi pin with a reflectored housing around it if I can direct that light in a certain direction then bounce it off I would indeed have more output.

Gregg they are avalible to select contractors as are the bullets and everyone knows about the trans too. No you do not need to take the screws out of the hat to change the lamp. The collar is a press fit with the O rings. It creates a very good fit and allows for toolless lamp changes. You could take the screws out if you needed to replace a damaged hat but other than that there has been no reason for me to do so. Removing the screws and taking off the hat still do not allow you to get to the lamp. The collar that supports the hat comes off as an assembly which allows you to get to the lamp.

Alan I appreciate your feed back on my post. Im really curious is you have experimented with an mr16 pathlight to be passing on this judgement. Even tho your path has a cool adjustment and allows one to hide the lamp down inside the brass you are still losing light output. If you want to send me the fixture your speaking about I will be happy to photograph them side by side and in off grade situations. While I dont have a light meter I think a picture speaks a 1000 words.