Corn Gluten for Dummies

[jdubwillie]

Hello everyone. I'm a long time lurker and first time poster, so please be gentle. I've read many of the posts on Corn Gluten Meal and the permutations thereof. They are mostly straightforward in terms of lbs per M and things of that nature.

My questions are probably very easy to answer, but I want an opinion from the experts before proceeding.
CGM has been proven to stop seed germination, it should not have an effect on rhizome spread? I realize these are two differnt things, but I wanted validation.

If I put down new seed on month ago, and watered every day for the last month, I should be fine putting down some CGM now, to give some nutrients and to prevent late season weeds?

Next year, around the February-March timeframe, putting down 20 lbs per M will not cause any issues with existing grass growing, but I shouldn't plan on putting down any new seed for 4-5 months, post application?

Thank you in advance for your help.

[greenguy08]

Depends on what part of the country you're in, but it sounds like you're on the right track with your info.:cool2::walking:

[Marcos]

Hello everyone. I'm a long time lurker and first time poster, so please be gentle. I've read many of the posts on Corn Gluten Meal and the permutations thereof. They are mostly straightforward in terms of lbs per M and things of that nature.

My questions are probably very easy to answer, but I want an opinion from the experts before proceeding.
CGM has been proven to stop seed germination, it should not have an effect on rhizome spread? I realize these are two differnt things, but I wanted validation.

If I put down new seed on month ago, and watered every day for the last month, I should be fine putting down some CGM now, to give some nutrients and to prevent late season weeds?

Next year, around the February-March timeframe, putting down 20 lbs per M will not cause any issues with existing grass growing, but I shouldn't plan on putting down any new seed for 4-5 months, post application?

Thank you in advance for your help.


Like greenguy asked, exactly what part of the country are you located?:confused:

We use CGM pretty much exclusively around perimeter hard edges like sidewalks. And although this is now fescue country, there are still quite a few folks holding out with their sodded bluegrass turf, or mixed lawns.

In the 9 years we've been using CGM I've not seen conclusive evidence of any stunting of rhizomial activity in bluegrass, much less in the sporadic amounts of zoysia & burmuda found around here.

So, looking at this from a whole NEW perspective...:rolleyes:
I'm quite THANKFUL CGM doesn't have an effect on rhizomes, and for the resulting extra helping hand in keeping perimeter weeds in check!
We need all the help we can get!:laugh:

[Kiril]

In the 9 years we've been using CGM I've not seen conclusive evidence of any stunting of rhizomial activity in bluegrass, much less in the sporadic amounts of zoysia & burmuda found around here.

How did you establish this?

[ICT Bill]

They have 17 years of testing data here
http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/

When folks ask us about "when" to apply it is different all over the country. The best way to know when to apply is as the soil temp's begin to get over 45 degrees, this is when the seeds that have blown in over the winter will begin to germinate

If it was a perfect world you want to apply between 45 and 55 degree soil temps at a time of rain and dry spells. The university of Oregon has testing data that CGM does not work, their issue is that it rains almost continuously for 3 months during the period that you should be applying. to work effeciently the seed needs to get wet and then dry out a bit after application

if you want complete (as complete as any pre-m can give) control you will want to apply again as the soil temp gets close to 70

[Marcos]

if you want complete (as complete as any pre-m can give) control you will want to apply again as the soil temp gets close to 70

In S Ohio this summer the soil temps struggled really hard to reach & stay in the lower 70's for very long.
Damn global warming! :laugh: :laugh:

[ICT Bill]

In S Ohio this summer the soil temps struggled really hard to reach & stay in the lower 70's for very long.
Damn global warming! :laugh: :laugh:

The same was true in the north east, very cold and wet spring and maybe 3 to 5 weeks of temps above 75/80

Crabgrass was thru the roof, all of the "heavy duty" chem's had a very difficult time keeping up, interesting, the folks who used Gluten-8 (liquid corn gluten meal) said they had the best response in the many years that they had been using CGM

[Marcos]

The same was true in the north east, very cold and wet spring and maybe 3 to 5 weeks of temps above 75/80

Crabgrass was thru the roof, all of the "heavy duty" chem's had a very difficult time keeping up, interesting, the folks who used Gluten-8 (liquid corn gluten meal) said they had the best response in the many years that they had been using CGM

Around here we noticed next to nothing of the seemingly perennial problem of annual grassy weeds, spurge & purslane along sidewalk & driveway edges.

It seemed that if lawns had crabgrass, it was mainly because they were thin to begin with, or because of some type of stress instilled due to a preceding external factor like dollar spot, leaf spot or wear & tear damage.

What this tells me is that A.I.'s chemical or non-chemical generally held up this summer quite well.
And as a result, any rampant problems with turf too thin to compete with weeds should've easily reared its ugly head at both applicators & their customers alike.

[atouchofnature]

Marcos,

I see that you are only about 70 miles north of me, so you might be a good person to ask ......

When should I apply CGM in my area (Lexington, KY)? In your experience, does the 2+ lbs of N/1000 sq. ft cause a surge of spring growth?

I had contemplated applying 10 lbs/1000 CGM in March, and repeating in April. I have reservations about adding 20lbs/1000 all at once due to
a) it seems like that much would attract rodents
b) I am concerned about a surge of growth
c) That is a lot of material to haul and apply


ICT Bill

I had considered applying ICT's gluten product at 1/2 rate and applying CGM at 1/2 rate the same day. Do you think this would work well? If so, it would ease the concerns I mentioned above while reducing my costs substantially, since I can buy 60% CGM locally for around $12 - $15 per 50 lbs.

[ICT Bill]

Marcos,

I see that you are only about 70 miles north of me, so you might be a good person to ask ......

When should I apply CGM in my area (Lexington, KY)? In your experience, does the 2+ lbs of N/1000 sq. ft cause a surge of spring growth?

I had contemplated applying 10 lbs/1000 CGM in March, and repeating in April. I have reservations about adding 20lbs/1000 all at once due to
a) it seems like that much would attract rodents
b) I am concerned about a surge of growth
c) That is a lot of material to haul and apply


ICT Bill

I had considered applying ICT's gluten product at 1/2 rate and applying CGM at 1/2 rate the same day. Do you think this would work well? If so, it would ease the concerns I mentioned above while reducing my costs substantially, since I can buy 60% CGM locally for around $12 - $15 per 50 lbs.

A 50 pound bag will treat 2500 sq ft, if you follow the Iowa state guidelines, if we take a mid price of 13.50/#50 your cost would be $5.40 per 1000 and no shipping cost. I say forget the Gluten-8 and stick with CGM

For most of the population that is not near the source some of the prices for CGM are simply ridiculous, I saw some online 20 Lb bag for $49.99, it is more common to see 50# bags for 24 to $26, which works out to 9.60 per 1000.

Our Gluten-8 product works out to $9.98 per 1000 but the 9 pound gallon compares to 80 pounds of CGM and it is more effective and you don't have to water it in. So there are some pluses but for that price get used to using bagged CGM.

In areas with little rainfall (in the west) the CGM will sit there for weeks and not breakdown, it needs irrigation

[ecoguy]

ICT, tell me more about the need for irrigation? It needs to stay wet, like new seed? Is it possible to overwater it? Would you agree that the best way to use CGM is apply it 1-2 weeks before the weed seeds start to germinate? What is the best way to determine the germination date?

[ICT Bill]

ICT, tell me more about the need for irrigation? It needs to stay wet, like new seed? Is it possible to overwater it? Would you agree that the best way to use CGM is apply it 1-2 weeks before the weed seeds start to germinate? What is the best way to determine the germination date?

Look at post 5 on this thread, it is a temperature thing

[Marcos]

Marcos,

I see that you are only about 70 miles north of me, so you might be a good person to ask ......

When should I apply CGM in my area (Lexington, KY)? In your experience, does the 2+ lbs of N/1000 sq. ft cause a surge of spring growth?

I had contemplated applying 10 lbs/1000 CGM in March, and repeating in April. I have reservations about adding 20lbs/1000 all at once due to
a) it seems like that much would attract rodents
b) I am concerned about a surge of growth
c) That is a lot of material to haul and apply




You've been doing your share of homework with regional CGM pricing, I see. :)

Lexington KY timing?
Anymore a lot of that boils down to pure gut instinct for me, but I'd say March 1-15 would be a decent target to shoot at for central KY.

We never realized a tremendous surge growth from CGM applied in this time frame.
But then again, we don't apply a whole lot of it comparatively speaking because we (generally) only apply CGM along concrete & blacktop perimeter hard edges, and at the same time use another meal such as soybean meal or CSM in the balance of the turf.

A lot of material to haul around (working with meals)?
Yup! :waving:
That's where a lot of the labor & transportation costs are devoted.
But the labor's still usually quite a bit cheaper than topdressing, even with today's high end machines out there.

Mice may become a problem for you in your storage barn, yes, if that's what you mean. But not in the lawn, at least we've not had anyone complain about them directly at us.
We've had some folks say thru the years that certain meals, especially CORN MEAL attracted X number of birds to their yard. But most of the time they weren't upset about it, just telling us as a point of interest in passing.
We're always quick to nod, smile & let them know that any addl bird droppings likely more than make up for any meal consumed, and are great for their lawn. :laugh:

One thing you &/or your customers may notice with over-applications of any given protein meal at any given point in time might be a somewhat delayed-reaction of MUSHROOMS popping up randomly.
But the same thing can happen when compost is spread too heavily on parts of a lawn, too.
Yeah, we've had a few people complain about them in the past, so more than a few times we've had to go out and make things good.
A lot of that has to do with seasonal timing of rains, humidity, soil & air temperature, vs. timing of the protein app or compost.
And sometimes there's nothing you can do about it but explain it away, or go out there & take care of it if they want you to.

[atouchofnature]

Thanks for replying Marcos. You have been a big help to me. I am friendly with a few of my local competitors, but none of them do the organic thing. I have searched high and low and besides Trugreen's organic program (which they don't market aggressively) I haven't found anyone around here doing an organic program.

You've been doing your share of homework with regional CGM pricing, I see. :).

I have a few more places to call, but so far the lowest price I have found is about 30 minutes away. I assume prices are probably very similar in your area. If your local prices are enough lower to make it worth a drive to Cinci for me, please let me know.

Lexington KY timing?
Anymore a lot of that boils down to pure gut instinct for me, but I'd say March 1-15 would be a decent target to shoot at for central KY.

That is the time frame I had in mind, but wanted a second opinion. I will start monitoring soil temps late February and use Bill's advice on proper temperature to plan the exact timing. Right now my company is very small, with myself and only 1 employee, so I won't have any problem knocking them all out within a week when the time is right.

We never realized a tremendous surge growth from CGM applied in this time frame.
But then again, we don't apply a whole lot of it comparatively speaking because we (generally) only apply CGM along concrete & blacktop perimeter hard edges, and at the same time use another meal such as soybean meal or CSM in the balance of the turf.

I am assuming that this is because your cost per lb. of actual protein is lower for SBM or CSM than for CGM? In my area, the price is very similar in terms of $ per lb of protein. On the CGM research page, I saw that some level of control was realized at lower rates. I had considered applying at half rate on the thicker lawns in March, and again at half rate in April.

Mice may become a problem for you in your storage barn, yes, if that's what you mean. But not in the lawn, at least we've not had anyone complain about them directly at us.

Actually, I was wondering about rodents being attracted to the customer's lawn. I'm glad to know that it won't be much of a problem. As far as my storage, since the source is very near, I will likely only buy a few day's supply at a time. I have a great source for 30 & 55 gallon steel drums with a removable top. I will likely get several of those drums and store any surplus at the end of the treatment in those.

Yeah, we've had a few people complain about them in the past, so more than a few times we've had to go out and make things good.
A lot of that has to do with seasonal timing of rains, humidity, soil & air temperature, vs. timing of the protein app or compost.
And sometimes there's nothing you can do about it but explain it away, or go out there & take care of it if they want you to.

I am assuming you are talking to hand picking the mushrooms? Or are you using some other way to control them?

[Marcos]

I am assuming that this is because your cost per lb. of actual protein is lower for SBM or CSM than for CGM? In my area, the price is very similar in terms of $ per lb of protein. On the CGM research page, I saw that some level of control was realized at lower rates. I had considered applying at half rate on the thicker lawns in March, and again at half rate in April.


I am assuming you are talking to hand picking the mushrooms? Or are you using some other way to control them?

For all intents & purposes of Lawnsitism we're a bridge-organic company, meaning we use chemicals on a spot basis for weeds and/or insects, with fungus problems always handled culturally in some fashion or form.

The reason for us (generally) not using CGM throughout the entire lawn lies within our core company focus, which is to HELP develop for our clients a soil that's biologically alive, and a turf that's effectively dense enough to crowd out most potential weed encroachment all on its own.
This requires tons o' cooperation from the customers, so 2-way communication is vital!
And to be perfectly frank, we've learned the hard way thru the years to pre-screen to a certain degree, and look especially for customers that'll tend to want to be 'team players' with their vendors.
They're out there. Not tons of 'em. But they're there. :)

Yeah....we've gone out and hand-picked the 'shrooms a few dozen times.
One fellow that worked here a while back used to swat them with a 3-iron he kept behind his seat, but that practice was stopped shortly after his driving practice was spotted by a neighbor. :cry:

Most people realize they're not a problem, or any symptom of another underlying problem.
It's just a cosmetic thing for alot of people, no different than a few dandelions in full bloom in the middle of a puddle of green.

[atouchofnature]

For all intents & purposes of Lawnsitism we're a bridge-organic company, meaning we use chemicals on a spot basis for weeds and/or insects, with fungus problems always handled culturally in some fashion or form.

The reason for us (generally) not using CGM throughout the entire lawn lies within our core company focus, which is to HELP develop for our clients a soil that's biologically alive, and a turf that's effectively dense enough to crowd out most potential weed encroachment all on its own.
This requires tons o' cooperation from the customers, so 2-way communication is vital!
And to be perfectly frank, we've learned the hard way thru the years to pre-screen to a certain degree, and look especially for customers that'll tend to want to be 'team players' with their vendors.
They're out there. Not tons of 'em. But they're there. :)

Yeah....we've gone out and hand-picked the 'shrooms a few dozen times.
One fellow that worked here a while back used to swat them with a 3-iron he kept behind his seat, but that practice was stopped shortly after his driving practice was spotted by a neighbor. :cry:

Most people realize they're not a problem, or any symptom of another underlying problem.
It's just a cosmetic thing for alot of people, no different than a few dandelions in full bloom in the middle of a puddle of green.

Now I understand. I actually have similar goals in regards to not completely eliminating pesticides, but using them responsibly, and only exactly where needed. I purchased a "weed wand" (the type with a herbicide reservoir & a sponge, not the type with fire) this fall, and used it a bit. I plan to build a few more of them so that I have 3 each for non-selective, broadleaf & crabgrass herbicides. I think they are a lot better than spot spraying in regards to hitting the target plant, and only the target plant. They look easy enough to build.

I am also still using synthetic fertilizers in small amounts to maintain the green until I get the organic matter & biologicals where they need to be. I hope to completely eliminate the synthetic ferts within a year, and the pesticides within 2.

I'm getting off topic of the thread a bit, and apologize to the original poster. I appreciate your input Marcos, you have been very helpful to me.

[Marcos]

I appreciate your input Marcos, you have been very helpful to me.

No problemo.
It's been fun.
Keep in touch.
PM me once & awhile with updates as to how you're doing if you want to. :waving: