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majic_6
10-08-2009, 06:43 PM
these are pics from a customers yard after they mow. i noticed that after they mow the yard has a brown tint to it consistently through out the lawn. it looks like the bottom half of the grass blade is brown, so when mowed the brown shows more, and the top greens back up within 2 days after they mow. it almost looks like its being scalped, but they mow on the highest level, i think 4 1/2 inches. they said its been going on for a few months. any ideas or recommendations???? thanks....i will add some pics after the green up occurs if needed

willis007
10-08-2009, 07:29 PM
it looks like leaf spot

RigglePLC
10-08-2009, 10:10 PM
Do they mow once per week? Probably taking too much off at one time. Golf courses and athletic fields mow more often, sometimes 5 times per week. Lawn tractor? Be sure all wheels are set at the same level and no blade is tilted or wheel is bent.

Secondly, if they mow when it is wet, sometimes fungus gets into the cut surface and fungus travels down the leaf for a half inch or so--you get brown at the cut leaves. I think I see a little dollarspot and red thread.

majic_6
10-08-2009, 10:33 PM
he mows once every 5 or 6 days.....he has a dixie chopper and has mower at highest level and is at top notch in performance...he even used another mower to mow with and it done the same thing. i have treated red thread on this yard before but the consistantsy of the whole yard has me wondering. even after the yard greens up a few days after being mowed, the browness is still at the root of the grass

White Gardens
10-08-2009, 10:47 PM
I'd say it's because he isn't mowing low enough to keep it green after a cut.

It seems the longer the grass (though better for the lawn) the more it browns out when mowed.

If he mowed once every 3-4 days then I wouldn't think it would brown out so bad.

JDUtah
10-08-2009, 11:59 PM
Is the turf too thick?

suzook
10-09-2009, 12:13 AM
Looks like some sort of fungus to me.

majic_6
10-09-2009, 08:39 AM
the turf is thick, probably the thickest yard i treat....2 acre yard and they dethatched it last year. temps are high 60's to low 70's at day and low 50's at night...customer said it started to do this around early summer. yard looked great early spring and looks good after it grows out a little, but still has browning towards the soil. could the thickness be putting a strain on the new seedlings coming in?

majic_6
10-11-2009, 08:23 AM
i drove by the lawn yesterday and it was green, and looked great. is it possible that the thickness of the lawn could be causing this problem?..if so, how do you fix?....i thought that was the object, to have a thick green lawn??...if a fungus, then what fungus makes the yard look like this?

White Gardens
10-11-2009, 10:04 AM
i drove by the lawn yesterday and it was green, and looked great. is it possible that the thickness of the lawn could be causing this problem?..if so, how do you fix?....i thought that was the object, to have a thick green lawn??...if a fungus, then what fungus makes the yard look like this?

I would say it's the thickness of the lawn. Even if you have a fungal problem, the lawn still looks really healthy.

Either mow shorter once a week, or mow more frequently. I've got a lawn I pick up this year, and it was two foot tall the first time I mowed. It took 3 weeks of mowing it shorter and on schedule to keep it from browning when mowed. I could also see a difference in grass, as the property is a double lot. One side blue-grass, and the other a contractors mix. Needless to say, the KBG side looks great after mowed and the other still browns out some.

foreplease
10-11-2009, 10:13 AM
I think you may have a shade problem in that not much light reaches the bottom couple inches of the grass plants. When the green tops are removed it exposes this. Have them try mowing one section every three days for a couple weeks and see if a difference can be seen. On all of it, at this time of year, I would begin working the height of cut down quite a bit from where they are now. So: cut all of it lower, one notch at a time, and cut part of it more often to determine if it is worth the trouble of doing it all more often. It is getting late in the year, the amount and quality of sunlight is going downhill fast. I would start this right away.

I guess I just agreed with White Gardens but said it in a different way.

foreplease
10-11-2009, 10:15 AM
I meant that I agreed or restate WG post #5. Looks like we were typing replies 10 and 11 at the same time :)

majic_6
10-11-2009, 10:46 AM
i will have customer mow on a different schedule, and have him knock it down a little at a time. i will also apply some fungicide in an small area to see if this is part of the problem also....thanks for the info and advice, its much appreciated

mdlwn1
10-12-2009, 05:28 PM
Looks like your staying in the ruts. The grass under the wheels is prolly 2-3 inches longer than the grass cut in the middle of the deck. Sure its got fungus..but that wouldnt explain it all season.

mdlwn1
10-12-2009, 05:30 PM
Lol at the people who said mow more frequently. Not this time of year! This will be funny...cut it down a little several times a week..and brown it out as fast as you can!

majic_6
10-12-2009, 08:44 PM
lol....i will post some pics of the green up 2 days after the mow in acouple days...the yard looks great after 2 days, but he mows every 3 to 4 days...i am going to try a fungicide in a small area and see if this is the problem....the thing is, the yard has looked consistant and green for years, and still does 2 days after its mowed...i just wish i would have been notified about this when it started...but, you know how that goes

JDUtah
10-12-2009, 09:42 PM
I would NOT use a fungicide!

IMO the lawn is too thick. Scotts does this often enough out here, not to mention the homeowners that apply their own fert.

I would double pass aerate and apply a light compost topdress. About 1/8". And back the N off next year, like half the N. If it needs a green boost, use a little chelated Fe or Epsom Salt.

Again do not use a fungicide! I suspect you blanket applied a fungicide either this year or last?

So some chem guys might call me crazy but IMHO fungicides will not solve your problem. In fact they may be part of your problem. The reason? The brown is dead grass blades. IMO caused by over-competition for sunlight. Generally the slowest tissue to decompose in dead plants is cellulose. The brown blades are just that, non-decomposed cellulose. Fungi are what break down that cellulose. So do not kill what will help resolve the problem.

IN other words applying a fungicide will be counterproductive... slowing the decay of the bothersome and unsightly dead grass blades.

I know it is opposite what most might think, but it works for me. last week I received an awesome testimonial from a new customer who had this same problem. I say try me out in a small area. Maybe half the yard?

If you take care of the chronic problem, you won't need to band-aid it constantly.

majic_6
10-12-2009, 10:02 PM
I haven't put any fungicide on this yard every since i've been treating it (4 years). On the other hand, i have been using plenty of N, up til recent findings in lawn.....and my last app had 1/2 the N i usually put down, and i subbed it out with iron, so i am with you there....

JD...how often should aerating be done to a thick lawn like this?...once a year...twice....or once every 2 years? and is this caused by the years of fert? or just lack of aeration? thanks

JDUtah
10-12-2009, 11:02 PM
I haven't put any fungicide on this yard every since i've been treating it (4 years). On the other hand, i have been using plenty of N, up til recent findings in lawn.....and my last app had 1/2 the N i usually put down, and i subbed it out with iron, so i am with you there....

JD...how often should aerating be done to a thick lawn like this?...once a year...twice....or once every 2 years? and is this caused by the years of fert? or just lack of aeration? thanks

Aeration should always be done as needed. Do an aeration to relieve compaction problems or discourage thatch buildup. I would do one this fall (double pass), go light on the N next year, and apply that compost next spring once the soil temps hit around 50. Then, if it is still unhealthily thick early summer, do one more aeration and light topdress then. By the end of next year you should be sitting pretty with a happy customer.

The compost is important because it will be introducing literally zillions of fungi spores that will help break down the dead turf. In turn there will be more light available and less die off. Use a compost derived from yard waste. You want compost created primarily from wood mulch and grass clippings as it will contain the fungi spores you need.

Less N will help keep the grass blades, and roots, from growing so aggressively, thus also allowing more light penetration.

The aeration will help relieve compaction if there is any, and most importantly allow water, air, and mineral nutrients to penetrate that matt/thatch layer. This will allow your roots to grow into the soil (as compared to the thatch layer) and thus encourage the right kind of thick turf.

Good job on cutting back the N! Have fun, and happy compost spreading. (you can prolly get by with 1/16" of compost. Really a dusting. This will still introduce zillions of beneficial fungi spores.

JDUtah
10-12-2009, 11:07 PM
ps, I say it is fert caused, not lack of aeration caused but I wouldn't say it is caused by the "years" of fert. Synthetic fert doesn't stick around in soil, so no real build up from year to year.

It can be caused by one year of fert... if too much is used. I hope that makes sense.

mdlwn1
10-13-2009, 10:35 AM
I would NOT use a fungicide!

IMO the lawn is too thick. Scotts does this often enough out here, not to mention the homeowners that apply their own fert.

I would double pass aerate and apply a light compost topdress. About 1/8". And back the N off next year, like half the N. If it needs a green boost, use a little chelated Fe or Epsom Salt.

Again do not use a fungicide! I suspect you blanket applied a fungicide either this year or last?

So some chem guys might call me crazy but IMHO fungicides will not solve your problem. In fact they may be part of your problem. The reason? The brown is dead grass blades. IMO caused by over-competition for sunlight. Generally the slowest tissue to decompose in dead plants is cellulose. The brown blades are just that, non-decomposed cellulose. Fungi are what break down that cellulose. So do not kill what will help resolve the problem.

IN other words applying a fungicide will be counterproductive... slowing the decay of the bothersome and unsightly dead grass blades.

I know it is opposite what most might think, but it works for me. last week I received an awesome testimonial from a new customer who had this same problem. I say try me out in a small area. Maybe half the yard?

If you take care of the chronic problem, you won't need to band-aid it constantly.

LMAO! Please dont listen to this guy. Sure what he is saying is true, but it likely has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on your situation. This is comming from someone who has over 20 years experiance maintianing lawns at sometimes less than 1.5 inches for some of the most wealthy people in the world. The people on this site generally ignor the eveidence and and just spew their own emotions rather than analye the facts.

JDUtah
10-13-2009, 04:22 PM
LMAO! Please dont listen to this guy. Sure what he is saying is true, but it likely has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on your situation. This is comming from someone who has over 20 years experiance maintianing lawns at sometimes less than 1.5 inches for some of the most wealthy people in the world. The people on this site generally ignor the eveidence and and just spew their own emotions rather than analye the facts.

Yeah I figured I would get some slag. Turf response to my program and customer testimonials is evidence enough for me. :drinkup:

so Mr. MDlawn expert, I justified my claim by reason and logic... mind doing the same with yours? Why does my advice "have no bearing" in his situation? i look forward you your 20+ years of knowledge. :laugh:

mdlwn1
10-13-2009, 04:36 PM
1. "lawn is too thick"...dude stop already..someone on a lawn forum has to tell you this? Thats your opinion...not logic.
2. "back off on the N" c'mon....How much has he put down?...lol...you dont know...emotional opinion...not logic.
3. "I suspect you put down a fungicide"....do I really have to address this one?
4. I was only criticizing what you said...not YOU.
5. As far as having no bearing...think about it...you have no info...soo you take your organic principles (which I did not criticise) and apply them here as if no matter what a problem is ...not using your organic methods must be the reason.

JDUtah
10-13-2009, 04:49 PM
1. "lawn is too thick"...dude stop already..someone on a lawn forum has to tell you this? Thats your opinion...not logic.
2. "back off on the N" c'mon....How much has he put down?...lol...you dont know...emotional opinion...not logic.
3. "I suspect you put down a fungicide"....do I really have to address this one?
4. I was only criticizing what you said...not YOU.
5. As far as having no bearing...think about it...you have no info...soo you take your organic principles (which I did not criticise) and apply them here as if no matter what a problem is ...not using your organic methods must be the reason.

Again, all about me. I noticed you haven't suggested what the problem is. Are you here to try to help people or just to argue and attack other people trying to help?

Oh by the way, you seem to be confusing the word logic with fact. I have stated my logic (which is simply a way of thinking). You are acting like I stated fact. I am the first to admit I didn't state fact. BUT I did state my logic that lead me to my advice.

I don't take it personally though. It is easy to stereotype me as one of those organic nut cases... especially in the context of this thread. But to each his own. I know I'm not.

It would be interesting to see who's advice worked better next year. Mine or yours. If only magic_6 and his customer would treat us to such a test. ;)

ps, in a month when you are off your high horse come back and read this thread objectively. Then tell me who is posting with "emotion". :drinkup:

I'm not wasting time though. You guys know what I would do to help that lawn. Peace.

majic_6
10-13-2009, 07:15 PM
First and foremost, i appreciate you guys taking the time to read my post and glad to see advice (opinions) given.....i sent pics to my local lesco guy, and he says "its some kind of fungus"......i've compared it to all diseases and fungus in my area, and it looks like none of them.....i've been in the spraying business for 4 years and have yet to apply a fungicide to any of my lawns...so my question is, would it help, harm or benefit at all if i marked off a small area and treated with a fungicide to see if this is the problem?.....will the results be quick enough to notice or would it be just a waste of time?

the yard is very thick, and has been for years.....we have had some record rain fall late spring early summer when this supposedly started to occur...i'm sure this could have played a factor...i do know that fungus and disease occurs when weather is right...but, the yard looks great 2 days after mowed (i will post more pics tomorrow).. i've taken soil samples and soil is where it should be....its weed free, and is usually one of my best looking yards...and i know for a fact he's not going to want to cut shorter, or put compost on it...its mainly in the front yard and not in the back......so, theres the facts that i know, so if this were your customer what would you do next?

mdlwn1
10-13-2009, 07:26 PM
This is my gut talking..obv none of us are there. I see a lot of "this" every year this time. Someone cuts at say 3.5" all year and just recently drops it to 3". The only way that can work is when you cut lower and then raise it back up slightly. All of your recent problems (fungus, bugs whatever) are still there..maybe not active but still visible. Most guys make the mistake of cutting into this layer. The guys that chopped in August (the average donk) prolly look like heros right now. If the lawn is fine and looks great after 2 days..I would have to think cutting height would be the major factor. You can try a contact fungicide like chlorothalonil (spelling)? if its not too cold where you are, but the grass is growing too slow to recover from much this late. I say cutting height is the only option...raise it up a little. Of course its gonna look a bit shaggy. This is the time of year to do as little as possible to turf as it wont recover very well from stress.

tlg
10-14-2009, 09:59 PM
Wow. As I read through all the post here I had to add my 2 cents worth of opinion. Let me be the first to say I have no idea what the problem is. A few pictures of the problem really leaves any diagnosis a shot in the dark. I have plenty of possibilities of the cause or causes but guessing on a course of action would be irresponsible. Given the cost of a fungicide applications and your reputation as a professional the prudent think to do would be to seek a advice from a cooperative extension office . Take a sample and let somebody with a microscope determine what the problem is or allow them to rule out possible fungus issues. You have to know what your target is before you take a shot at the problem. The advice given by others here, while well intended, falls far short. Do yourself and your customer some justice. Seek advice other than guesses from a few pics.

majic_6
10-14-2009, 10:06 PM
Wow. As I read through all the post here I had to add my 2 cents worth of opinion. Let me be the first to say I have no idea what the problem is. A few pictures of the problem really leaves any diagnosis a shot in the dark. I have plenty of possibilities of the cause or causes but guessing on a course of action would be irresponsible. Given the cost of a fungicide applications and your reputation as a professional the prudent think to do would be to seek a advice from a cooperative extension office . Take a sample and let somebody with a microscope determine what the problem is or allow them to rule out possible fungus issues. You have to know what your target is before you take a shot at the problem. The advice given by others here, while well intended, falls far short. Do yourself and your customer some justice. Seek advice other than guesses from a few pics.

after speaking with the customer today, i stopped by property today and grabbed a few samples and are sending it off tomorrow to get the CORRECT diagnosis....like i stated before i appreciate advice (opinions), i was just hoping someone from midwest area had seen this before and could have pointed me in the right direction

mdlwn1
10-14-2009, 10:14 PM
Wow. As I read through all the post here I had to add my 2 cents worth of opinion. Let me be the first to say I have no idea what the problem is. A few pictures of the problem really leaves any diagnosis a shot in the dark. I have plenty of possibilities of the cause or causes but guessing on a course of action would be irresponsible. Given the cost of a fungicide applications and your reputation as a professional the prudent think to do would be to seek a advice from a cooperative extension office . Take a sample and let somebody with a microscope determine what the problem is or allow them to rule out possible fungus issues. You have to know what your target is before you take a shot at the problem. The advice given by others here, while well intended, falls far short. Do yourself and your customer some justice. Seek advice other than guesses from a few pics.

While you are absolutly right regarding the soil sampling, the pics tell quite a story about the mowing practices.

tlg
10-14-2009, 10:27 PM
after speaking with the customer today, i stopped by property today and grabbed a few samples and are sending it off tomorrow to get the CORRECT diagnosis....like i stated before i appreciate advice (opinions), i was just hoping someone from midwest area had seen this before and could have pointed me in the right direction

A wise man never stops seeking the truth. There was nothing wrong with your process ( asking questions on this site ) you just needed to go a bit further with your investigation. Let us all know what happens.

tlg
10-14-2009, 10:37 PM
While you are absolutly right regarding the soil sampling, the pics tell quite a story about the mowing practices.

I was thinking more of a tissue sample, but a soil sample would also be a good idea too. A picture is worth a thousand words they say. For my old eyes the resolution needs to be a whole lot better. :laugh:

majic_6
10-14-2009, 10:49 PM
I was thinking more of a tissue sample, but a soil sample would also be a good idea too. A picture is worth a thousand words they say. For my old eyes the resolution needs to be a whole lot better. :laugh:

lol...i learn stuff on a daily basis in this field......and to be clear it is a tissue sample, i had taken soil test on this yard in spring...i will post my findings

majic_6
10-15-2009, 12:39 PM
heres pics taken today.....and found spots on the blades....these are best close-ups i could get....looks to me like leaf spot

ron mexico75
10-15-2009, 01:17 PM
Wow, you HAVE TO post what the diagnosis is. I swear to god that looks EXACTLY what my front yard has looked like the past 3 years. I mean to a "T" I would say you were at my house and took those close up pics.

The very same issue I have had. The lawn looks great, dark green healthy. Then when it's cut (even as high at 3.75 inches) it looks like garbage. Brown grass all mixed in appears like its thatch. However, when you get on your hands and knees and spread the turf and look down in there, the individual blades that haven't totally died look all spotted, mustard yellow lesions.

Not just spots of the lawn but the entire thing. Several days go by the grass grows and BOOM! looks good again as a whole lawn except if you get down in there and spread the turf.

I tried ARMADA 50WP as a preventative and the damn lawn still looked like your pics. Used it as a curative and within about 10 to 14 days the entire lawn looked great. About 3 to 4 weeks go by and right back where it was. Looks EXACTLY like your pics. The only thing that kept it looking good and helped clear up the yellow spotted and dead brown grass was to spray fungicide like every 2 to 3 weeks. It was too damn expensive so I just let it go.

Grass from March to mid May looked great. Then from mid May to about the beginning of Sept it looked just like your pics if it wasn't constantly sprayed with Armada or another fungicide. From mid Sept to about the first frost the lawn looked outstanding. I always said Dollar Spot and then some areas got Brown Patch. I never sent away a a sample though and have since moved. I will be VERY VERY interested to see what the test of yours shows. Please post back when you find out.

ron mexico75
10-23-2009, 08:01 AM
Any info on this issue? Have you gotten back the test results yet?

mdlwn1
10-23-2009, 08:12 AM
The leaf spot and the original pics are not the same situation. Sure you have some leaf spot...but that was the not the primary problem in the original pics...mowing height/method was the major factor.

lincoln295
10-23-2009, 02:55 PM
any updates? I have the same problem.

naughty62
10-24-2009, 08:30 AM
Many large lawns are planted with seed mixes dominated by ryegrass and cheaper bg .They are susceptible to rust and leaf spot especially the first couple years of seeding or over seeding .Go through the lawn and see if you have any bluegrass left .ryegrass dominated lawn are more drought resistant but can look thin and clumpy so home owner cuts the lawn way too high to prevent the thin clumpy look .cut at 3 inches this time of the year ,pounding the lawn with high nitrogen year round contributes to the problem .there is a difference in fall fert app and a winterizer app .Give the lawn a light shot of balanced fert and cut at 3 inches then address the cultural practices , aeration ,power raking,overseeding ect ect .Large lots can be expensive to maintain and people skimp .

majic_6
10-26-2009, 09:30 PM
results are in.....leaf spot and melting out. and i agree mdlawn, mowing practices are the other problem, which has been addressed.

majic_6
10-26-2009, 09:38 PM
i am pretty sure that the fert i put down in late spring was a little higher in nitrogen than i should have put down, which could have help the problem grow a little quicker.....this customer demands the dark green lawn, so i will sub that with chelated iron next year..........opinions on treating the leaf spot??

White Gardens
10-26-2009, 10:34 PM
i am pretty sure that the fert i put down in late spring was a little higher in nitrogen than i should have put down, which could have help the problem grow a little quicker.....this customer demands the dark green lawn, so i will sub that with chelated iron next year..........opinions on treating the leaf spot??

I would let it go at this point. I would hope that the winter will help solve that problem. But, there might still be a potential for a return of leaf spot next season.

You could do a fungicide application, but they are expensive and it's debated on the effectiveness to cost ratio. That and fungicide applications only last for so long.

I would say cultural practices and maybe tweak the fert in order to help minimize it next year. Hopefully you won't have as much rain as we've had this year also.

naughty62
10-29-2009, 06:32 AM
Most people power rake in the spring . But if the client is getting excited , you can power rake,cut and bag at 3inches and a light shot of quick release will do it .This problem is common ,dont get excited .AIR CIRCULATION .

mdlwn1
10-29-2009, 01:03 PM
i am pretty sure that the fert i put down in late spring was a little higher in nitrogen than i should have put down, which could have help the problem grow a little quicker.....this customer demands the dark green lawn, so i will sub that with chelated iron next year..........opinions on treating the leaf spot??

Like you..I had a lot of leaf spot pressure this year. Cultural practices are the biggest factor in controlling how bad it looks and controlling how much N the lawn will use. Customers should realize before being charged for Fungus control that the results may last as little as 7-10 days...depending on rain, humidity, temps, and everything else. Iron is always worth a shot...checking PH in a few areas is always a good idea. Sometimes leaf spot or any top growth fungus can be worse when a lawn is fed heavy in spring and then not heavy during the summer and fall. I dont know your budget, but for next year try and feed 50% slow (aprox) with no more than say 1lb n per 1000 in spring (asuming you didnt feed heavy in fall) You do not want to be the greenest lawn on the block in spring unless you are a turf expert..and even then it not really a great idea. For reasons i wont bore you with..I had to feed this spring (I normally dont) sure enough..I've been battling leaf spot. all season. Usually I feed heavy through late Oct and then not again until mid/late spring when the lawn starts to ease up after seeding. The seeding process takes a TON of food to complete so it's usually a good idea to wait till its almost finished. You can usually hide leaf spot by not reducing your cutting height till Oct...and no more than 1/4 inch. Try starting around say 2" in early spring and raise it to 3.25-4 " into Aug....**** ...lunch is over

majic_6
11-02-2009, 07:10 PM
i will work with customer on mowing heights....i appreciate the opinions and advice, i will take it all into consideration when tackling this problem...thanks