Fall Fertilizer

[atouchofnature]

For over 20 years I was one of the "fert & squirt" guys. I just started a gradual switch to organic methods this summer. I have read several books, lurked on this site, scoured the web and talked to a few people to try and learn all I need to know.

I have applied ICT's product, along with other products to boost the "good bugs" such as kelp, molasses, compost topdressing, yucca extract etc. and have drastically reduced the use of synthetic fertilizers, but am still applying them, for the short term, in very small amounts so the customers' lawns don't lose the color while I am building the soil back to where it should be.

I usually apply 1 lb/1000 sq ft of N in October, and again in late November for fall fertilizer. I am considering cutting this amount in half and using the appropriate amount of cottonseed meal to make up the difference. This brings me to my questions .....

How long will it take the cottonseed meal to break down?

I am assuming that the microbes will go dormant at some point in winter. If so, what is the approximate temperature that will cause this? Will the cottonseed meal cease to break down while they are dormant?

I have read that cottonseed meal will lower the PH. I have not been able to find any specific information about how much it will lower it. Does anyone know how much? Most of my lawns are in a good pH range, and I want to apply enough lime along with the cottonseed meal to make sure that I keep it that way.

Thanks in advance for any answers.

[Smallaxe]

The physical laws of nature will tell you that microbes will be active until they freeze. The processes will slow of course but they are as active as the roots. Your root zone will continue to grow as long as part of it remains unfrozen.

Cotton seed meal on top of the ground, subject to drying and freezing at the whims of air temperatures is another story. An active colony of worms can move the stuff into the ground quickly and "cast" the desired winterizer as they move through to get it.

I you can picture in your mind's eye, what allows the meal to rot into the soil, after it is beaten into the soil by rain, then you just need to figure out how it moves into the root zone. Nutrient Cycling... Here is where thatch becomes an issue.
It took 2 full seasons for my transition lawns to start Nutrient Cycling to the extent of being noticeable.

I hope you don't try to put down enough cottonseed to match the 1lbs./k of N. A fertile soil doesn't have much use for all that N. Microbes provide it as the root "calls" for it. :)

[phasthound]

The physical laws of nature will tell you that microbes will be active until they freeze. The processes will slow of course but they are as active as the roots. Your root zone will continue to grow as long as part of it remains unfrozen.

I remember about a dozen years ago seeing microbial activity in root zones with ice particles. The photos were taken by Dr. Alex Shigo, father of modern tree biology. Turf guys may not know of him, but he was influential in changing the way tree care was practiced.

[ICT Bill]

Hey atouchofnature,
I like the new name
and good for you, its a big jump to make

My general answer as to when the bugzzz go to sleep for the winter is when the soil temps are around 50 degrees, is that a drop dead time for them, NO but things slow down considerably around that temp.
here is something from the USDA that shows the ebb and flow

[Kiril]

How long will it take the cottonseed meal to break down?

No real answer here ... it depends on environmental conditions.

I am assuming that the microbes will go dormant at some point in winter. If so, what is the approximate temperature that will cause this?

My general answer is when your deciduous plants start going dormant so do the microbes.

Will the cottonseed meal cease to break down while they are dormant?

Not necessarily.

I have read that cottonseed meal will lower the PH. I have not been able to find any specific information about how much it will lower it. Does anyone know how much? Most of my lawns are in a good pH range, and I want to apply enough lime along with the cottonseed meal to make sure that I keep it that way.

This largely depends on how the nitrogen cycle progresses in your soils and the sites soil structure and composition.
Short answer ... there is no answer.

[Marcos]

I have read that cottonseed meal will lower the PH. I have not been able to find any specific information about how much it will lower it. Does anyone know how much? Most of my lawns are in a good pH range, and I want to apply enough lime along with the cottonseed meal to make sure that I keep it that way.

Thanks in advance for any answers.

If you're worried about disrupting a pH you're generally happy with, go with soybean meal (SBM) instead. :waving:
You're not going to lose anything at all in terms of availability of N & K.
And most of the time SBM spreads better than CSM, depending upon relative humidity and if you're getting consistency in grain size from the elevator.

The answers you've already seen on here are pretty much right on as far as microbial protein take-up of decomposing cotton seed meal.
For central KY the 2nd week of Oct this should be true for SBM as well.
As far as I've seen * heard, even TGCL's local 'organic' division is finished for the year in terms of their massive annual autumn expulsion of assorted poultry & swine meals.

Bear in mind for the future that if your goal is to get a visible October-November reaction for your customers from a fall applications of meals, you probably should apply them no later than the 2nd week of September.

[atouchofnature]

Lots of great information guys. I am surprised/happy that so many responded so quickly. Now that I have read your posts, I have more questions/comments for several of you.

Smallaxe

Cotton seed meal on top of the ground, subject to drying and freezing at the whims of air temperatures is another story. An active colony of worms can move the stuff into the ground quickly and "cast" the desired winterizer as they move through to get it.

I am afraid I may have inadvertently damaged the earthworm population in many lawns with sevin & other pesticides over the years. Unfortunately, I got most of my training from Barefoot Grass before they were swallowed by TruGreen, and from a local company that was founded by a former TruGreen district manager. As a result up until the last couple of years, I didn't realize what kind of damage the "scheduled" applications were doing. Some of the lawns do seem to have respectable earthworm populations, as I saw quite a few after aeration. Others, I'm not so sure about.

Does anyone know of a method I can use to speed up the process of rebuilding the earthworm population (beyond increasing organic matter and decreasing/stopping insecticide applications)?

I you can picture in your mind's eye, what allows the meal to rot into the soil, after it is beaten into the soil by rain, then you just need to figure out how it moves into the root zone. Nutrient Cycling... Here is where thatch becomes an issue.
It took 2 full seasons for my transition lawns to start Nutrient Cycling to the extent of being noticeable.

Every lawn was aerated this fall, and most of the ones with significant thatch problem were dethatched mechanically. Because I wanted to get things off on the right foot, I offered aeration at mowing price to encourage everyone to go for it. Only 2 declined, and I aerated those 2 free of charge. I also applied humic acid & compost tea to every lawn to help with the decomposition.


I hope you don't try to put down enough cottonseed to match the 1lbs./k of N. A fertile soil doesn't have much use for all that N. Microbes provide it as the root "calls" for it.

I plan to use a starting point of 1/2 lb urea per 1000 sq ft in mid October and 8 lbs/1000 cottonseed meal, and repeating in mid November. Those amounts would be raised or lowered based upon actual N needs. My understanding is that 7% organic N is as effective as around 10% synthetic N. Is this correct?


phasthound

I remember about a dozen years ago seeing microbial activity in root zones with ice particles. The photos were taken by Dr. Alex Shigo, father of modern tree biology. Turf guys may not know of him, but he was influential in changing the way tree care was practiced.

Do you have any suggestions on where i could find more information about Dr. Shigo's research?

I hope to switch to your product soon, at least for a couple of years while I get the soil where it should be. Up until lately, I had mainly concentrated on mowing & mulching and hadn't put much effort into treatments and my customer counts don't make it cost effective to buy dry material that isn't local.


ICT Bill

Thanks for the kind words on the name change. My customers have been very cooperative with the change. Thanks to your products, and the good prices on things like soybean meal, distiller's grain & compost (think horse manure) in my area, I was able to offer them a semi-organic price at a very low increase over their current prices.

I have was very pleased overall by the results from the Hydrochar I bought from you by the way. Due to lack of good equipment, I didn't get it mixed consistently enough on a couple of lawns, but on the ones where I mixed it better I got great results. The ones that were not mixed well have some areas that I would estimate near 100% germination and other areas that weren't so good. I hit the bad spots a second time and they are coming in nicely. I saw some tall fescue germination in 5 days.

Please tell me where you found the chart you posted. I would love to dig deeper into the subject.


Marcos

If you're worried about disrupting a pH you're generally happy with, go with soybean meal (SBM) instead.
You're not going to lose anything at all in terms of availability of N & K.
And most of the time SBM spreads better than CSM, depending upon relative humidity and if you're getting consistency in grain size from the elevator.

2 reasons I was looking at CSM rather than SBM.

1 - I have read online that CSM has some potential to help aerate clay soil, which is very dominant in my area. I also had considered adding a bit of greensand to the CSM for this reason.

2nd - I have seen some studies showing that SBM has some (though in smaller amounts) of the same ability to reduce seed germination as CGM. Most of my lawns were seeded this fall and I didn't want to hinder the germination.

Bear in mind for the future that if your goal is to get a visible October-November reaction for your customers from a fall applications of meals, you probably should apply them no later than the 2nd week of September.

I applied alfalfa meal (10 lbs/1000), very very light urea (around 1/8 lb N/1000) & ICT in late August. I'm not looking much for visible results this fall from the CSM. I just plan to use enough urea to maintain the color for the rest of the season. Right now most have pretty good color.

My reason for wondering about the time needed to breakdown the CSM is that I was concerned about the possibility of too much N being released in spring when N is not really needed. It looks like I will be applying 2+ lbs of N/1000 sq ft in March or April with CGM and I don't really want to add any to that during the spring months.




Thanks again for your responses guys, and I hope that some of you will have more comments for me based upon my responses.

[ICT Bill]

I got it here at the USDA site, they have been promoting the soil food web since 1997, that is not a typo 1997
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publications/publications.html

Look towards the bottom for the "soil biology primer slide set" under Soil Biology Technical Notes

[Smallaxe]

I plan to use a starting point of 1/2 lb urea per 1000 sq ft in mid October and 8 lbs/1000 cottonseed meal, and repeating in mid November. Those amounts would be raised or lowered based upon actual N needs. My understanding is that 7% organic N is as effective as around 10% synthetic N. Is this correct?

I had never heard that 7% organic is = 10% synthetic. It appears that the numbers game gets out everywhere...

Building the soil means that N is now available that would normally be lost. Soil fertility means N is being produced as it is needed.

1/2 lbs of urea is plenty enough for the season - all by itself. Getting the meals in the ground now is a good idea anyways, because as Bill's chart shows, it will be decomposing quickly next spring when the grass can make use of it. Hopefully , deeper in the rhizosphere by then.

With a half pound of urea now, are you planning a spring fert app as well?

[Kiril]

Over seed with compost top dress is all you need in the fall IMO.

[Marcos]

Marcos
2 reasons I was looking at CSM rather than SBM.

1 - I have read online that CSM has some potential to help aerate clay soil, which is very dominant in my area. I also had considered adding a bit of greensand to the CSM for this reason.

2nd - I have seen some studies showing that SBM has some (though in smaller amounts) of the same ability to reduce seed germination as CGM. Most of my lawns were seeded this fall and I didn't want to hinder the germination.



I applied alfalfa meal (10 lbs/1000), very very light urea (around 1/8 lb N/1000) & ICT in late August. I'm not looking much for visible results this fall from the CSM. I just plan to use enough urea to maintain the color for the rest of the season. Right now most have pretty good color.

My reason for wondering about the time needed to breakdown the CSM is that I was concerned about the possibility of too much N being released in spring when N is not really needed. It looks like I will be applying 2+ lbs of N/1000 sq ft in March or April with CGM and I don't really want to add any to that during the spring months.


CSM certainly has tons of potential to aerate clay soil if it's incorporated into it with a deep-tine aerator, or whatever.
With all due respect, just like what's been argued back & forth for over a quarter century in this biz regarding the use of gypsum, CSM's not going to miraculously dig itself downward into the Earth without some type of physical help, especially in clay like I think YOU have.

I have no opinion on greensand either way, but I think it's logical that if you incorporate it over time, it could help your clay soil vertical drainage profile as well as improve soil-to-root nutrient take-up to the plant, not too different than the action mycorrhizae performs.

Based only upon the information you've posted, it appears to me that the overall intensity of your early spring '10 breakout response may hinge upon the sugars stored from your fall apps of urea just as much if not more than any undecomposed CSM left for use.
Soil & wind erosion are other factors to consider when thinking of overwintering undecomposed meals on turf grass surfaces. Don't discount these possibilities. :waving:

[atouchofnature]

Thanks again for the responses guys. I really appreciate your ideas, thoughts and information. I should have paid more attention in high school science classes. I hope you guys don't mind giving more input based upon the following responses ......

Smallaxe

I had never heard that 7% organic is = 10% synthetic. It appears that the numbers game gets out everywhere...

I had gotten this from a post on this site that was actually referring to TechTerra's Screamin' Green. The post said that the 16-2-3 was equivalent of 28-5-12. I assumed that the improved results were a result of the organic portion and it would apply to meals as well. I actually got my math wrong when I said that based upon that 7% would be as effective as 10%, if my assumption were correct the 7% would be as effective as about 11.5%. I probably have the whole thing wrong, or misunderstood the post, which is here (http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=290947).

Please educate me if I am wrong.

With a half pound of urea now, are you planning a spring fert app as well?

My plans for spring "fertilizer" apps are Corn Gluten Meal, greensand (which I understand takes a very long time to break down) and small amounts of molasses, kelp & fish emulsion added to compost tea, as much for microbe food as for feeding the plant. I plan to test every lawn in January & those that are deficient would receive the recommended amount of nutrients in a mixture of natural & synthetic forms.

For example for the N recommendations, I considered getting half of the actual N from urea & the other half from either additional CGM or SBM. 1/2 of the phosporous would come from super phosphate and 1/2 from bone meal. 1/2 of the K would come from potassium sulfate and 1/2 from greensand or kelp. Of course if all 3 nutrients were deficient, I would use something like 19-19-19 for the synthetic half & if any deficiencies were severe I would use a delayed release product for the synthetic half. Right now, most of my lawns are not very deficient at all, but hopefully I will have new customers by spring & many of those will have deficiencies.

My thoughts are that the synthetic half will keep the lawn super green as the customers have become accustomed to, while the organic products are breaking down. I hope to have all of my current lawns "weaned" from the synthetic fertilizers by late fall next year.

I tested most lawns during the summer, and my fall fertilizer rates will be based upon the test results. The lawns that were not tested during summer will get tested immediately prior to the October fall fertilizer, which will be applied at 1/2 the rate I mentioned (1/4 lb urea & 4 lb CSM) and they will get another visit when the test results come back if they needed more. Most of my lawns are on a monthly payment plan, so please don't read that as my trying to milk them for an extra app. I won't be paid any extra for the 2nd trip.

Sorry if I got long winded with my response. I am hoping that you guys will have some comments on my plans, good or bad.



Kiril

Over seed with compost top dress is all you need in the fall IMO

I have managed to get 3 customers to go for the compost top dress, and every "treatment" customer has had some form of seeding this fall. My only way to topdress right now is with a shovel, rake & wheelbarrow & I'm having a hard time getting them to buy it due to the high price I am needing to charge. I have a local welder working on building a topdresser for me. Unfortunately none of the local rental centers have a topdresser, so that option is out. If the welder manages to put something together for me, I plan to include a light topdressing at regular app price spring & fall every year.

The lawns that got a topdress this fall will not get the urea, only the cottonseed meal.



Marcos

CSM certainly has tons of potential to aerate clay soil if it's incorporated into it with a deep-tine aerator, or whatever.
With all due respect, just like what's been argued back & forth for over a quarter century in this biz regarding the use of gypsum, CSM's not going to miraculously dig itself downward into the Earth without some type of physical help, especially in clay like I think YOU have.

Every lawn has been core aerated within the last 2 weeks, most within the last week, & I plan to apply the CSM within the next week. I know it would have been better to apply it immediately after the aeration, now that i think about it. One lawn did get about 50 lbs/1000 sq. ft of oyster shell for the purpose of aeration & calcium, though I doubt the calcium will be available for quite a while.


Based only upon the information you've posted, it appears to me that the overall intensity of your early spring '10 breakout response may hinge upon the sugars stored from your fall apps of urea just as much if not more than any undecomposed CSM left for use.

That is a very good point. In the past, based upon the way I was taught, I always applied 2 lbs urea/1000 in September & I mixed 1 part 19-19-19 with 2 parts urea & applied it at a rate of 1 lb Nitrogen per 1000 sq. ft. in October. I now know that is far too much quick release N & most of it was probably lost due to leaching & evaporation before it was used. Based upon your thoughts, which make a lot of sense, I may cut the urea down even further.

I am hesitant to eliminate it, since I cut it back to only 1 lb urea/5000 sq. ft in September & many of the lawns are losing color far faster than their neighbors. Many were only persuaded to "go green" after I told them that I would use synthetics any time that their lawn faded substantially, or weeds became a problem.


Soil & wind erosion are other factors to consider when thinking of overwintering undecomposed meals on turf grass surfaces. Don't discount these possibilities.

This is another thing that I had not considered. Most of my lawns are very thick, and none are on substantial slopes, so this may be less of an issue. Any suggestions on dealing with this obstacle are welcomed.




Thanks again to everyone for your input. Any comments or questions are very much appreciated. I have read books & websites like mad, but I am still fuzzy on a few things. I have tried searching the forums, but have a hard time getting good results on my searches sometimes. I must be missing some tricks to searching.

[Smallaxe]

You may possibly start throwing more P on the soil if a test says you need it. 1/2 SuperPhosphate and 1/2 bonemeal.

Think of your soil as this huge warehouse with every imaginable type of foodstuff, from freezer rooms to dry storage. In the center of this warehouse they built a confrence room for wining and dining all of their clients and associates. This worked well because the warehouse workers could double as delivery boys to the kitchen.

Cost effective and built stronger connections with ease...

Now something changes and you lay off the warehousemen and forget about the rooms full of stuff, because your focus is on the conference room idea. It was such a hit with all your business relations, that now you just have meals and drinks catered in, when overseas guests arrive. The leftovers, from every party are stored in one of these rooms, but never used again.

It is said that, 60 - 90% of P added to the soil is immediately lost, due to it bonding solidly to another element in the soil. AM Fungi are the critters that 'mine', the soil for tied-up P and make it available to the plant. The AMF are not only warehousemen , they are also the kitchen staff.
However, The AMF do not work much when more P is applied. The party is being catered so everyone takes a smoke break, that lasts, the rest of the day.

The same is basically true for many other elements as well. In fact, there is so much more to this that we don't understand yet, that we can't even imagine what we don't know. The activity of microbes in the soil can supply all the NPK with only a nominal boost from ferts.

To a large extent Kiril's statement about compost being the only fall application, could be true for most soils, if not all. The biggest problem is that we don't know enough about the workings in the soil. But we have learned superficially from trial and error.

Do a little experimenting and hold off on spring apps until you see that something is needed.

[ICT Bill]

You may possibly start throwing more P on the soil if a test says you need it. 1/2 SuperPhosphate and 1/2 bonemeal.

Think of your soil as this huge warehouse with every imaginable type of foodstuff, from freezer rooms to dry storage. In the center of this warehouse they built a confrence room for wining and dining all of their clients and associates. This worked well because the warehouse workers could double as delivery boys to the kitchen.

Cost effective and built stronger connections with ease...

Now something changes and you lay off the warehousemen and forget about the rooms full of stuff, because your focus is on the conference room idea. It was such a hit with all your business relations, that now you just have meals and drinks catered in, when overseas guests arrive. The leftovers, from every party are stored in one of these rooms, but never used again.

It is said that, 60 - 90% of P added to the soil is immediately lost, due to it bonding solidly to another element in the soil. AM Fungi are the critters that 'mine', the soil for tied-up P and make it available to the plant. The AMF are not only warehousemen , they are also the kitchen staff.
However, The AMF do not work much when more P is applied. The party is being catered so everyone takes a smoke break, that lasts, the rest of the day.

The same is basically true for many other elements as well. In fact, there is so much more to this that we don't understand yet, that we can't even imagine what we don't know. The activity of microbes in the soil can supply all the NPK with only a nominal boost from ferts.

To a large extent Kiril's statement about compost being the only fall application, could be true for most soils, if not all. The biggest problem is that we don't know enough about the workings in the soil. But we have learned superficially from trial and error.

Do a little experimenting and hold off on spring apps until you see that something is needed.

Interesting analogy, I am suddenly very hungry

One of the things I do know is that in most soils there are a long list of life going on, bacteria, fungi, nematodes, etc. When we apply "things", fertilizer, compost, soy, alfalfa meal, etc, these things are food for the herd (yes I said fertilizer) as we continue to apply "things" we begin to select for the critters that like that "stuff" as food. So we begin to select for who gets big and healthy and who doesn't to some extent

Nice finished aerobic compost has who knows how many food sources, a 10-10-10 fertilizer is much more limited than a nice finished compost

Who is getting big and healthy from 10-10-10 fertilizer? the list is limited. Who is getting big and healthy from broad range of food, its the old "lifts all boats" thing.

as the bacterial colonies grow so do their predators, as the nematode population grow so do their predators. As the populations grow so does soil fertility, the populations are growing and pooping and procreating and dying. all of these actions leave behind (in most cases) plant available food sources

You also can't forget about the plant, as soil fertility grows the plants are able to do their photosynthesis thing better and deposit more exudates into the soil which feed the rhizoherd. Better leaf growth more exudates, more exudates more herd.

Its kind of self sustaining, until the food source goes away or the environment changes drastically (disturbance) by fire, flood, rototilling

[atouchofnature]

It is said that, 60 - 90% of P added to the soil is immediately lost, due to it bonding solidly to another element in the soil. AM Fungi are the critters that 'mine', the soil for tied-up P and make it available to the plant. The AMF are not only warehousemen , they are also the kitchen staff.
However, The AMF do not work much when more P is applied. The party is being catered so everyone takes a smoke break, that lasts, the rest of the day.

I definitely won't be applying any extra P except in lawns where the test say that it is needed. Of the current lawns, I don't think many will need it, because I just corrected the P deficiencies in late summer using mostly bone meal & a small amount of 19-19-19 (only using the triple 19 in lawns that were also needing N & K). I did not apply enough N to correct the deficiencies in summer because my area is prone to late droughts over the last few years and N + drought = disaster. The actual amount of N I apply this fall would be based upon this information.

Based upon the things you just said, I think it would be better to eliminate the super phosphate & only use bone meal if P is needed. Since many of the meals that I am planning to use in place of fertilizer have small amounts of P, and the current lawns have already had deficiencies corrected (only a few were deficient at all, and they only needed small amounts), the P level will likely stay in a good range. Of course, I will continue to test twice a year (winter & summer) to be sure.


Do a little experimenting and hold off on spring apps until you see that something is needed.

Are you saying to not use the corn gluten meal? Right now, my lawns are nearly weed free (broadleaf). They had terrible crabgrass this year, even after 2 pre-m treatments & God knows how many spot sprayings of MSMA. I am sure a lot of it went to seed. I am not meaning this to argue with you, but to look for advice based upon the situation. I did seed every lawn, which will help, and I bought 1 "weed wand" & plan to build 2 more (1 each for roundup, msma & broadleaf) for the purpose of spot treating weeds without indiscriminately spraying herbicide.

I have never used CGM (other than in one mulched area with no plantings to test it's weed preventing potential), and I am a little apprehensive about applying the equivalent of 2 lbs N in spring in a single application. When I was in the "chemical" mindset, I only applied 1.5 lbs N over 3 applications. I understand that the CGM is going to break down slower than synthetic ferts, but it still seems like a lot.

I guess what I am looking for, is for someone with experience with CGM to chime in and tell me if I should adjust somehow for the high N in spring, or explain to me that it isn't an issue.

[atouchofnature]

Interesting analogy, I am suddenly very hungry

I agree. So many light bulbs went off in my head while reading that, that I had to put on sunglasses. Nothing like a good analogy to get something through a thick head.


Its kind of self sustaining, until the food source goes away or the environment changes drastically (disturbance) by fire, flood, rototilling



This is actually where a lot of my problem is. Most of these lawns had the grass clippings bagged for years, until I started mowing them. They have been treated by synthetics for years, and had all of their leaves removed in fall. After I started mowing them, I started mulching the leaves into the lawn, but many don't have any trees.

What I am saying is, that these lawns have gone for years with almost no organic matter added, so at this point, there is little hope of these lawns sustaining themselves until I get the OM to a good level. In summer, I did not have the soil tested for OM, but in January plan to do so (recommendations on a good lab would be appreciated). My goal is to get the OM up to near 10% (I know that is a bit high, but remember I am dealing with mostly clay). Once the OM is up to that level, I believe the lawns will need minimal input as long as leaves & clippings are mulched into the lawn.



A question for ICT Bill ......

I accidentally left a bottle of ICT in my enclosed truck bed over a couple of 90 degree days. Do you think the temps may have killed it?

[Grohorganic]

U mass does a good soil test for low$$$

after that think how to get the compost down in a low cost manner and work from there............. lower labor cost some how???

[Kiril]

after that think how to get the compost down in a low cost manner and work from there............. lower labor cost some how???

Find some cheap laborers.

[Kiril]

My goal is to get the OM up to near 10% (I know that is a bit high, but remember I am dealing with mostly clay). Once the OM is up to that level, I believe the lawns will need minimal input as long as leaves & clippings are mulched into the lawn.

I believe you have it backwards here. You would want a higher OM% in a sandy soil over a clay soil. Beyond providing OM for overall soil health, in a clay soil I base my OM% decisions on CEC and desired structural improvements. For sandy soils I use desired CEC, soil structure , and water retention characteristics.

In any event, if your soils are low in OM, then you will need to find a way to get compost into these soils if you have any hope of hitting your target % in your lifetime, assuming you are starting with next to nothing.

[ICT Bill]

A question for ICT Bill ......

I accidentally left a bottle of ICT in my enclosed truck bed over a couple of 90 degree days. Do you think the temps may have killed it?

I would look and see if the bottles are bloated, if so the microbes are trying to grow out. It is best when kept at room temp's but we use a couple different methods to keep them asleep, it could be fine

The other test is the smell test, if you open the cap and its smells like rotten eggs I wouldn't use it

[ecoguy]

Damn you guys, this is good stuff. And people think we just "cut grass" for a living. Smallaxe, brilliant analogy. I say you find an illustrator and pump out some children's books, seriously. I'm forever trying to explain this stuff to my inquisitive 8 yr old son.

I've done like 7-8 full lawn renovations in the past week (PR, A, Organic F, OS and Top Dress) and I have only seen 1 worm. And he was dead. I agree with the top dress as being the most important fall reno as most of these lawns suffer from lack of soil depth, like 4-6 inches then gravel which is why they have so many problems. I tell customers all the time that weeds are their friends are are literally reaching out to them pleading that they pay attention to what's underneath. I imagine I'll be top dressing twice a year forever.

A few questions:

1. Soil Tests. I require them of any new customer and encourage them towards the professional lab work up but their always good with just knowing the ph, NPK. I use this test kit I got from the local nursery that involves adding capsules to a few ml of soil and water. It seems to work fine but what would you guys recommend? How do you do all your own tests?

2. Topdressing. Is twice a year the maximum?

3. Compost Tea. I plan to brew my own in the Spring. How would you combine a regular compost tea application with topdressing? The tea would likely add more benefit but doesn't do much to increase soil depth. So..would you focus on the dressing for depth and the tea for the microbes.

4. CGM. From all I've read its vital to add it 1-2 weeks before the weed seeds germinate. That would be around March 1 here (Vancouver Island). Is there a way to know the date for sure? I just don't want to promise customers something I can't deliver.

5. I was just approached by a manager of a strata interested in me maintaining his 31 townhouses including fall/spring treatments. This could be amazing for me only 1 month in this biz but now I"m scrambling trying to figure out how the hell to do up a quote plus I guess I'll need to hire people. HELP!!!

6. Lehr Propane Trimmers are the real deal. They are just as powerful as my Echo, way more environmentally friendly, heavy as hell though. Only drawback.

Thanks guys. I'd be screwed without this site.

[atouchofnature]

Grohorganic

after that think how to get the compost down in a low cost manner and work from there............. lower labor cost some how???

I found a thread here on the forum where someone had built a homemade topdresser and was kind enough to give a lot of information and pictures, along with permission to use his idea. I printed out the thread and took it to a welder friend, along with some ideas for adjustments. My friend procrastinates terribly, so it will probably be a month before it's done, but he does good work and the price is right. If it works the way I think it will, I should be able to get a thin layer on with a lot less labor. I have a source for low cost compost, so hopefully I will be able to get it done for a fair price.

I was thinking of doing some topdressing on warmer winter days to boost winter income, and give the compost time to work start getting into the soil before spring greenup. I considered aerating, then topdressing, then going over it with a dethatcher set at a very shallow setting to kind of scratch the compost into the thatch layer & aerator holes. Has anyone tried this before?



Kiril

I believe you have it backwards here. You would want a higher OM% in a sandy soil over a clay soil. Beyond providing OM for overall soil health, in a clay soil I base my OM% decisions on CEC and desired structural improvements. For sandy soils I use desired CEC, soil structure , and water retention characteristics.

I have always used UK for soil tests, and they basically give NPK & pH levels. Is there a soil test that will give me the CEC? What is optimum CEC? Is 10% OM too high for clay soil?



ICT Bill

I would look and see if the bottles are bloated, if so the microbes are trying to grow out. It is best when kept at room temp's but we use a couple different methods to keep them asleep, it could be fine

The other test is the smell test, if you open the cap and its smells like rotten eggs I wouldn't use it

It doesn't smell bad, and the bottles didn't bloat, so I am probably Okay. I should probably get a microscope and learn to use it to check these things. I am assuming this is the way that you guys check your tea?



A new question for you guys .............

On one lawn that I have serviced for 3 years now, there is a spot near the driveway that I have seeded every fall, and every summer it dies back out. The customer is an elderly lady and due to finances has always declined to have me dig in and try to find the problem.

Last week, I finally decided to dig it up for free since I was there aerating, seeding & topdressing the lawn. About 12 inches down I found huge chunk of concrete. I dug out an area about 4' X 4' with no sign of finding the edges. The customer didn't want me to keep digging, and even if I had found the edges soon, I wasn't willing to break up and remove that much concrete for free.

The soil I removed was at least 90% clay, so I refilled the hole with about 60% of the clay I removed and 40% a 50/50 blend of compost and good topsoil and used a garden hoe to mix in 50 lbs crushed oyster shells. I also sprayed the area with 1/4 cup diluted yucca extract and seeded it. Also, the area was a couple of inches lower than the surrounding areas, so I was able to get the soil a little deeper by building it up to match the rest of the lawn. Is there anything more I can do to increase the chances of having a lawn there?

[atouchofnature]

4. CGM. From all I've read its vital to add it 1-2 weeks before the weed seeds germinate. That would be around March 1 here (Vancouver Island). Is there a way to know the date for sure? I just don't want to promise customers something I can't deliver.


In another post Bill said to apply when soil temperature is around 45 degrees F and again at around 70 degrees.

I am new to the CGM thing myself, but in past years, when I needed to know the soil temp, I have used a food thermometer, and just stuck it in the soil to find the soil temperature at my house, and since all of my lawns are within 20 miles or so, I assume that their lawns will be similar temperature.

[Smallaxe]

Ecoguy, I wouldn't trust the CGM to function well as a pre-m. Make sure for yourself b4 you offer it to customers. I have heard enough about it to not even bother experimenting with it.
I never pre-m lawns anyways. Crabgrass doesn't germinate in good lawns or even mediocre lawns. Around here, at least, that's true.

Touchofnature, I didn't mean to indicate that you shouldn't put down CGM if you want to in the spring, for pre-m purposes. My opinion on spring feeding is that it inhibits deeper roots and generates thatch.
Whether CGM causes that effect or not , I am not sure. It really wouldn't break down that quickly, so - roots aren't going to be in, "Excessive growth mode" - like can happen with water soluable N.

[Kiril]

I have always used UK for soil tests, and they basically give NPK & pH levels. Is there a soil test that will give me the CEC? What is optimum CEC? Is 10% OM too high for clay soil?

The higher the CEC the better. Given CEC is largely determined by your native mineral soils, there really isn't much you can do to change it. That said, you can increase the soils pH dependent CEC with OM additions. If you are working with high clay soils, then your OM is less important as it relates to CEC than it is for improving soil structure and overall health. I personally don't think 10% is too high, but in the soils you have described a more realistic level to shoot for might be 5-8%.


The soil I removed was at least 90% clay, so I refilled the hole with about 60% of the clay I removed and 40% a 50/50 blend of compost and good topsoil and used a garden hoe to mix in 50 lbs crushed oyster shells. I also sprayed the area with 1/4 cup diluted yucca extract and seeded it. Also, the area was a couple of inches lower than the surrounding areas, so I was able to get the soil a little deeper by building it up to match the rest of the lawn. Is there anything more I can do to increase the chances of having a lawn there?

Be very careful when doing this because you end up creating an isolated area that has very different soil characteristics from the rest of the site. This will become very evident if the area is irrigated.

[Marcos]

I was thinking of doing some topdressing on warmer winter days to boost winter income, and give the compost time to work start getting into the soil before spring greenup. I considered aerating, then topdressing, then going over it with a dethatcher set at a very shallow setting to kind of scratch the compost into the thatch layer & aerator holes. Has anyone tried this before?


Excuse me for not taking the time to go back & read 100% of this thread, but aren't you primarily working with tall fescue? :confused:
If you are, then there isn't thatch to worry about.

At this point in time I would literally aerate the bejesus out of them 2X or 3X over and then topdress.
If it were two months ago & I were overseeding too I'd be spraying a cocktail of endomycorrhizae onto the prepped area immediately after core aeration & slice seeding, but just before the layer of compost.

If the animals you're working with are mostly bluegrass, burmuda or zoysia, then yeah, the sequence of operations you posted would work just fine to help break through thatch & into the clay.

[Marcos]

Ecoguy, I wouldn't trust the CGM to function well as a pre-m. Make sure for yourself b4 you offer it to customers. I have heard enough about it to not even bother experimenting with it.
I never pre-m lawns anyways. Crabgrass doesn't germinate in good lawns or even mediocre lawns. Around here, at least, that's true.



The last sentence or so of what you posted here is 110% true, and it should be the core centerpiece of this industry's general long-term weed strategy. :waving:

I don't buy your argument about pre-emergent in general terms, though.
I know that CGM, Dimension and other chemicals have effects on weeds from seeing them in side-by-side turf test plots thru the years.

What to do about concrete & blacktop perimeter edges, Smallaxe?
As long as lawn & garden equipment dealers all over tarnation continue to market & sell sidewalk edgers that rip & tear the hell out of the soil with vertical blades, we'll ALL continue to have nightmares with annual weeds popping up along these areas!

I suppose it might be alot different if more homeowners & professional mowing companies alike knew more about proper timing of mechanical sidewalk edging, in order to make the best use out of pre-emergent A.I half-life.
But frankly, many homeowners probably don't know, and many mowing contractors don't care.

[atouchofnature]

Thanks again to all who are helping me through all these questions. I know your time is valuable.

I had a mower break down which killed my day today, so I am browsing the forums while I should be working until the part gets here. One of the drawbacks of being small and not having backup equipment.

Smallaxe

I never pre-m lawns anyways. Crabgrass doesn't germinate in good lawns or even mediocre lawns. Around here, at least, that's true.


Definitely true. I have a few lawns that I haven't used pre-m on in a couple of years and only wound up spot spraying a bare minimum crabgrass spots, until this year. I saw the worst crabgrass crop in years this year, even on the lawns that had pre-m used.

The old rule that many seem to forget is that 2 solid objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. If the lawn is thick, there is no space left for weeds to grow. The problem is that it takes a lot of time to get a lawn that thick. I applied seed at the maximum recommended rate this year and added good bugs, so hopefully more of my lawns will be there by spring.

I had considered spot treating with liquid pre-m, only applying in the thin areas, at least during the next year or 2 while I am transitioning the lawns to organic. I have never spot treated with pre-m, at least not over the entire lawn, so not sure how that would work. Of course if I used CGM to spot treat, I would likely see some patchy looking lawns, as some areas got the nutrients from CGM & others didn't, so I would have to either use ICT's product or a synthetic. Any comments from anyone?



Marcos

Excuse me for not taking the time to go back & read 100% of this thread, but aren't you primarily working with tall fescue?
If you are, then there isn't thatch to worry about.

I am primarily working with tall fescue. Only 2 lawns are an exception.....
One is primarily KBG. I did finally get the client to let me slit seed with tall fescue this year, and I did remove a lot of thatch, but there is still some there. It is down to an acceptable level now, and I believe the microbes I have been applying should be able to further break it down.
The other exception is a tall fescue lawn that Trugreen has treated for the last 2 years. I'm not sure how much N they applied, but in spring I mowed every 3 days, and was still cutting off more than 1/3 of the blade each mow. Of course with the excessive N, the lawn did develop a thatch layer, over an inch actually. I used a dethatcher to remove 2 10' trailer loads of thatch from this 5000 sq ft lawn, and there is still a fair amount left. Again, I believe that it is thin enough that the lawn can handle it with the use of compost tea & natural fertilizers.

Overall, when I mentioned a thatch layer, I was referring to a very thin layer. Almost all of my lawns have at least small amounts of KBG, and a few have some bermuda coming from neighbor's lawns.

If it were two months ago & I were overseeding too I'd be spraying a cocktail of endomycorrhizae onto the prepped area immediately after core aeration & slice seeding, but just before the layer of compost.

All of my lawns had some mycorrhizae added once in August, and again immediately after aeration during the last 2 or 3 weeks. Some were also topdressed, though I did apply the cocktail after the topdressing rather than before. I used ICT's compost tea in August, and used both ICT"s compost tea & their hydrochar when aerating. Every lawn also got some seed, most were over the entire lawn, and a few were only in the thinner areas.


What to do about concrete & blacktop perimeter edges, Smallaxe?
As long as lawn & garden equipment dealers all over tarnation continue to market & sell sidewalk edgers that rip & tear the hell out of the soil with vertical blades, we'll ALL continue to have nightmares with annual weeds popping up along these areas!

I have found 2 ways to decrease the weed problems on the edges. The key word is DECREASE, there are still problems, but they are significantly less. Maybe if some of you guys haven't thought of this, I can help you out for a change.

The first is for lawns that I personally mow & the customer insists on edging. On these lawns, I edge the lawn back to about 1.5" away from the sidewalk/drive. Over time, the grass started to thicken, and some grass was literally growing horizontally toward the sidewalk. I then just use a trimmer to cut it back from the walk/drive the presence of the grass there helps to reduce the weeds. This only works on lawns where the soil level is higher than the level of the pavement.

The 2nd way is by applying Pendulum about every 6 weeks along the edge of the sidewalk during the entire growing season. Doing this is actually what gave me the idea I mentioned above about spot treating the entire lawn with a pre-m. Of course, as I phaze out the chemicals, I will likely substitute ICT's product or something similar for the pendulum.

I have used the 1st method for 4 years now, and the 2nd for 2 years and it definitely makes a difference.

[Marcos]

The old rule that many seem to forget is that 2 solid objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time. If the lawn is thick, there is no space left for weeds to grow. The problem is that it takes a lot of time to get a lawn that thick. Any comments from anyone?


I have found 2 ways to decrease the weed problems on the edges. The key word is DECREASE, there are still problems, but they are significantly less. Maybe if some of you guys haven't thought of this, I can help you out for a change.

The first is for lawns that I personally mow & the customer insists on edging. On these lawns, I edge the lawn back to about 1.5" away from the sidewalk/drive. Over time, the grass started to thicken, and some grass was literally growing horizontally toward the sidewalk. I then just use a trimmer to cut it back from the walk/drive the presence of the grass there helps to reduce the weeds. This only works on lawns where the soil level is higher than the level of the pavement.

The 2nd way is by applying Pendulum about every 6 weeks along the edge of the sidewalk during the entire growing season. Doing this is actually what gave me the idea I mentioned above about spot treating the entire lawn with a pre-m. Of course, as I phaze out the chemicals, I will likely substitute ICT's product or something similar for the pendulum.

I have used the 1st method for 4 years now, and the 2nd for 2 years and it definitely makes a difference.


I disagree that it necessarily takes a long time for turf in general to thicken to the point to where it'll choke out weeds all on its own.
We're talking in general terms here, of course: Rhizomous vs. non-rhizomous species making all the difference in the world in terms of filling in the voids between the blades.
But nonetheless, creating maximum turf density should be looked upon as a challenging team exercise among vendor, homeowner client, and (yes) mowing contractor, if the mowing responsibilities are not one-in-the-same as either the lawn care vendor or client.

The customer has to buy-in the fact that their history of weed problems isn't so much because their past companies 'stunk', or whatever.
They have to come to realize exactly what you posted, OTON, that IF their lawn's thick, there's literally no space left for weeds to grow.
Then it's up to you to show them exactly how the lawn can be made to be more dense, with the partnership of your company's program & constant guidance, along with the customer's cooperation (in proper mowing, watering, willingness to seed... or have seeded thinner areas, etc...)


Interesting edging philosophy! :waving: Not too unlike what we do in the landscape quite a bit with Aquacap.

The technique that we've liked thru the years is ONE extremely aggressive VERY early spring edging of all edges at least 1/2" back.
CGM then gets applied heavily sometime in March typically, give or take.

From that 1st edging on toward the tail end of the summer, the customer & the applicator will typically make a handshake pact that nothing with a metal or plastic blade will make contact with soil along their perimeter hard edges, only weed eaters with string cutting back blades of grass.
If they don't mow their lawn, they communicate this desire directly to their mowing vendor explaining the reason why.
If there is ever any problem (which is almost never), then I get on the phone with that mowing vendor & reinforce with them the reason why, again.

[Smallaxe]

... I don't buy your argument about pre-emergent in general terms, though.
I know that CGM, Dimension and other chemicals have effects on weeds from seeing them in side-by-side turf test plots thru the years.

What to do about concrete & blacktop perimeter edges, Smallaxe? ...

Not sure what part of my thinking on pre-m you are referring to, but pre-m is a root inhibiting hormone so it will likely have some effect on anything that survives on healthy roots.

Edging is ugly and dirty. I use a weedeater for edging. I let the turf's thatch cover the edge of the sidewalks which helps keep them clean. Dirt will always be washing onto traditionally edged walkways, which I think is stupid.

[Marcos]

Not sure what part of my thinking on pre-m you are referring to, but pre-m is a root inhibiting hormone so it will likely have some effect on anything that survives on healthy roots.



It was when you told Ecoguy you wouldn't trust CGM to function well as a pre-m.
CGM works as well as anything else if the variable factors surrounding it are favorable.
Because of the potential for roots being inhibited that you mentioned, pre-emergents in general should be used only in areas of high incidence of past problems, and in the very weakest links in the turf (again....hard perimeter edges).
Given areas of turf that have historically high incidence of crabgrass should hit the applicator over the head like frying pans to wake him/her up and motivate them to take some sort of action.

Chronic weeds in a given area not only typically represent an underlying problem with thin turf, they of course can also represent DOLLAR $IGN$ :usflag:for a smart lawn care salesman in the way of opportunity for up-sells and add-ons like late summer/early fall slice seedings, or simply routine core aeration to help KEEP a thick lawn that way.

[atouchofnature]

simply routine core aeration to help KEEP a thick lawn that way.

Excellent thought!

In Paul Tukey's Organic Lawn Care Manual, there is mention of using a penetrometer to decide if the lawn needs to be core aerated. That is one of the few things in that book that I don't agree with, and have never agreed with.

IMO, aeration should be performed at least once per year on every lawn. Core aeration has so many benefits beyond relieving compaction that almost any lawn would gain some benefit. In previous years, I went through the customer list and tried to upsell them on aeration in fall, some would bite and others wouldn't of course. Beginning in '10, every lawn will get aerated in fall as a part of their program, and customers who opted for the "deluxe" program will get spring aeration and fall overseeding added automatically. I simply increased the treatment price slightly all year long, to compensate for the higher aeration & seed charge.

Most will see it as a bonus to get the benefit of the aeration for $5 extra or so per month, but if you go to them asking them to take an "add-on" many see it as your trying to get extra money from them. I spoke with quite a few lawn care customers (some of them were not even my customers, but people I saw outside that had an application sign in their lawn), and almost all seemed to believe that when they buy a lawn care program, it should include everything the lawn needs. They felt like add-on services were either a marketing ploy to get extra income, or were a case of the original salesperson being dishonest in offering them a low price and surprising them with additional services.

I had one particular client tell me that she had been a customer of Trugreen, and after several calls from them trying to upsell, she started logging their calls. Over the course of the 6 months or so that she logged the calls, they averaged one call every 12 days trying to sell additional services that her lawn needs. Her response was something like, "I thought I was buying a complete program that would tend to all of my lawns needs, I told them I wanted the full service program". Most of our clients are former TruGreen clients, or at least a close friend/relative of a Trugreen client, and those practices have made them leery of us all.

I'm getting off topic here :hammerhead:

[Kiril]

I see aeration serving two purposes

1) Relieve physical compaction
2) Get organic matter deeper into the profile

The drawback of aeration, as with "wheel" edging, is you bring weed seeds to the surface, and depending on the machine, might actually increase physical compaction.

IMO tight soils (high in clay) and soils low in OM should get aerated once every 2 years minimum coupled with a generous compost top dress.

[atouchofnature]

Excellent points Kiril.

In regards to the weeds seed pulled to the surface, any time I aerate in spring I follow up with pre-emergent within a few days. Historically I used Pendulum, Team or Dimension, in the future I will use CGM. With fall aerations, even if the client did not purchase overseeding, I overseed very lightly after aeration. Normally I wait until after 2 mows, or 2 rainfalls to give the holes some time to fill in a bit, so I'm not putting seed 3 inches deep. Neither of these is going to stop every single weed, but they do help.

If you are using a heavy machine, I see how compaction could be a problem. That is actually something that is bugging me. As I mow lawns with a rider, I often think about how I am compacting the soil. It isn't cost effective to push mow them all, I would be out of business fast. I know there is a better solution, but for now, I have decided to use my tow behind aerator on every lawn that I mow every 10th mow. The tow behind aerator doesn't get tight into the corners, but I have a small hand held model that I use in those small areas. As I am using the tow behind, my helper is in the corners with the manual aerator.

[Marcos]

I see aeration serving two purposes

1) Relieve physical compaction
2) Get organic matter deeper into the profile

The drawback of aeration, as with "wheel" edging, is you bring weed seeds to the surface, and depending on the machine, might actually increase physical compaction.

IMO tight soils (high in clay) and soils low in OM should get aerated once every 2 years minimum coupled with a generous compost top dress.

Good points.

I'll sometimes take the 1st part of this and expand it out a little further to color the page better for more reluctant targets:

1) Relieve physical compaction
a) defeats 'sheet wash' effect of downpours / irrigation on sloped areas
b) encourages faster & easier turfgrass root &/or rhizome development

But, those two points just as easily could be associated with increased OM in & along the soil profile in general.

[Marcos]

The drawback of aeration, as with "wheel" edging, is you bring weed seeds to the surface

WADR, weed seeds brought to the surface during aeration should only be a concern when the turf isn't thick & dense enough to deter most weeds, or maybe in some of the most densely shaded areas in the North.

And if (especially fescue) turf isn't dense enough to deter weeds on its own, that specific area should be slice seeded until it IS thick enough, not just routinely & annually plugged with a core aerator.

[Kiril]

But, those two points just as easily could be associated with increased OM in & along the soil profile in general.

Both points address improving soil structure/fertility and all the benefits that come with those improvements.