Iron

[atouchofnature]

There is an active thread on the forum discussing iron & milorganite. That thread put iron into my mind, however, my question here would not have been appropriate for that particular thread.

I am aware that molasses contains a respectable level of iron, and I can get it dirt cheap, but I don't think that spraying straight molasses would be a good thing for the lawn, not to mention the spray equipment. That brings me to 2 questions .....

What is the minimum dilution & maximum application rate for molasses that would be both good for the lawn & the equipment?

What are some other good natural sources of iron?

[ICT Bill]

There is an active thread on the forum discussing iron & milorganite. That thread put iron into my mind, however, my question here would not have been appropriate for that particular thread.

I am aware that molasses contains a respectable level of iron, and I can get it dirt cheap, but I don't think that spraying straight molasses would be a good thing for the lawn, not to mention the spray equipment. That brings me to 2 questions .....

What is the minimum dilution & maximum application rate for molasses that would be both good for the lawn & the equipment?

What are some other good natural sources of iron?

Before WWII Molasses was the fertilizer of choice, especially for golf courses. It was a cheap byproduct that went down easily and produced a nice green up

I know some golf course super's that use molasses all of the time
caution: If your site is or has been attacked by disease, especially bacterial, it will spread it like wild fire. It is an excellent bacterial food

[atouchofnature]

Before WWII Molasses was the fertilizer of choice, especially for golf courses. It was a cheap byproduct that went down easily and produced a nice green up

I know some golf course super's that use molasses all of the time
caution: If your site is or has been attacked by disease, especially bacterial, it will spread it like wild fire. It is an excellent bacterial food

That is the reason that I had thought too much might not be good for the lawn. I also imagine that something as thick as molasses would be brutal to the equipment, if it could manage to pump it at all.

I have the benefit of having a customer who is a plant pathologist, and another who is a mycologist. They have both been very helpful to me over the years. I thanked them this year with a free aeration & overseeding for all of their trouble.

After a conversation I had with the mycologist a couple of weeks ago, where she was telling me how much fungi love molasses, I came up with an idea that might be a good one, or might be downright stupid/impossible. I plan to ask her about it later this week and get her opinion, meanwhile, any opinions from you guys would be great.

I had thought of maybe getting (I don't know where I would get it) some trichoderma, or a product that contains trichoderma, and adding it to 5 gallons of molasses, diluting the molasses in 25 gallons of water, and applying it to lawns that have a history of fungal problems. The purpose, of course, would be to increase the trichoderma population, while leaf feeding the grass. I assume the molasses would also feed the other good bugs in the soil.

If my idea is silly, please tell me so, but please be gentle. I know it is probably a brain fart disguised as a brain storm, but I still had to ask.

[ICT Bill]

That is the reason that I had thought too much might not be good for the lawn. I also imagine that something as thick as molasses would be brutal to the equipment, if it could manage to pump it at all.

I have the benefit of having a customer who is a plant pathologist, and another who is a mycologist. They have both been very helpful to me over the years. I thanked them this year with a free aeration & overseeding for all of their trouble.

After a conversation I had with the mycologist a couple of weeks ago, where she was telling me how much fungi love molasses, I came up with an idea that might be a good one, or might be downright stupid/impossible. I plan to ask her about it later this week and get her opinion, meanwhile, any opinions from you guys would be great.

I had thought of maybe getting (I don't know where I would get it) some trichoderma, or a product that contains trichoderma, and adding it to 5 gallons of molasses, diluting the molasses in 25 gallons of water, and applying it to lawns that have a history of fungal problems. The purpose, of course, would be to increase the trichoderma population, while leaf feeding the grass. I assume the molasses would also feed the other good bugs in the soil.

If my idea is silly, please tell me so, but please be gentle. I know it is probably a brain fart disguised as a brain storm, but I still had to ask.

Not a brain fart, smart actually. Viscosity is not an issue, the recommended application rate is around 1 gallon of molasses per acre, mix accordingly

My point is when disease pressure is low it works great. When you mix it with kelp, fish, humate and known microorganisms it is "spot on" and can be applied for the entire season

[nc-jrock]

atouchofnature I am trying to find molasses for a cheap price could you tell me where I could get it.

[atouchofnature]

atouchofnature I am trying to find molasses for a cheap price could you tell me where I could get it.

Almost every livestock feed store in my area sells it with prices ranging from .15 per lb (bring your own jugs) to $4 per gallon. Oddly, it's only the mom & pop stores that have it, the chains (Southern States & TSC) don't carry it.

[atouchofnature]

Not a brain fart, smart actually. Viscosity is not an issue, the recommended application rate is around 1 gallon of molasses per acre, mix accordingly

My point is when disease pressure is low it works great. When you mix it with kelp, fish, humate and known microorganisms it is "spot on" and can be applied for the entire season

Something just clicked in my mind Bill ....

Do I remember you telling me once that one of your products contained Trichoderma? If so, which one was it?

When I read your response, it seemed like deja vu, as if you and I had discussed something similar at some point.

This isn't thread related, Bill, but since you are online right now: If you still have my email address, and you have it handy, could you send me all of your brochures/product sheets again, I lost them somewhere on my hard drive.

[nc-jrock]

Can you guys tell me if Backstrap Molasses is the same as feed molasses?

[Smallaxe]

I use dried molasses from the feed co-ops. My only concern is there is an amount of salt listed on the label. Quick and easy application though.

[ICT Bill]

Something just clicked in my mind Bill ....

Do I remember you telling me once that one of your products contained Trichoderma? If so, which one was it?

When I read your response, it seemed like deja vu, as if you and I had discussed something similar at some point.

This isn't thread related, Bill, but since you are online right now: If you still have my email address, and you have it handy, could you send me all of your brochures/product sheets again, I lost them somewhere on my hard drive.

We have 6 sets of trichoderma in our mix

email me at bill@ictorganics.com and I will get it over to you

[Kiril]

Hey Kiril. How about "backing in" to the thread on "Iron". I'm sure those guys will love me for inviting you. (You don't need an invitation, anyhow, do you.)
You once said something about too much iron possibly doing harm to a lawn's soil.

Anything in excess can cause a toxic condition, and in the case of iron (and others), can form insoluble precipitates with other required plant nutrients essentially removing them from the labile pool. Need to determine if there is a deficiency or an addressable condition before you start throwing stuff into your soils. I see way too many people just throw on iron to "fix" chlorosis, even when their soils are loaded up with the stuff.

[starry night]

I use dried molasses from the feed co-ops. My only concern is there is an amount of salt listed on the label. Quick and easy application though.

I use the dry bags also. Spreads easy but wear boots. After I spread it the first time, I couldn't untie my shoes. :)

[atouchofnature]

Anything in excess can cause a toxic condition, and in the case of iron (and others), can form insoluble precipitates with other required plant nutrients essentially removing them from the labile pool. Need to determine if there is a deficiency or an addressable condition before you start throwing stuff into your soils. I see way too many people just throw on iron to "fix" chlorosis, even when their soils are loaded up with the stuff.

Good information Kiril. It's also good that you chimed in, because many homeowners browse through these threads, and someone could easily be misled into believing that they should load up on iron for a green lawn.

My purpose in wondering about which organic amendments are iron rich, is that in my area, I see lawns with iron deficiencies from time to time. In the past, I applied ferromec once per year to keep it in line, but I am looking for more natural solutions. I don't plan to, and never have, applied liberal iron applications of iron without a soil analysis to back it up. In the past, I would add about 1 pint ferromec per acre to my regular mix, and lawns with an iron deficiency would get a second application after I finished all the others and added more ferromec to the tank.

Now that I am cutting back on synthetics (I assume ferromec would be considered a synthetic), I will need a replacement product for those deficiencies.

[Kiril]

My purpose in wondering about which organic amendments are iron rich, is that in my area, I see lawns with iron deficiencies from time to time.

Question is ... is it a lack of iron in the soil, or a soil condition that is the cause of the "deficiency"? Most soils have adequate iron, it is just not plant available. Your job is to determine if you can make the iron available by adjusting management practices, or if applying more is the only feasible option.

Now that I am cutting back on synthetics (I assume ferromec would be considered a synthetic), I will need a replacement product for those deficiencies.

I have a gallon of ferromec I have had for 3 years. I mix a small amount in with molasses applications, when I actually use molasses, which is not very often.

[ICT Bill]

Good information Kiril. It's also good that you chimed in, because many homeowners browse through these threads, and someone could easily be misled into believing that they should load up on iron for a green lawn.

My purpose in wondering about which organic amendments are iron rich, is that in my area, I see lawns with iron deficiencies from time to time. In the past, I applied ferromec once per year to keep it in line, but I am looking for more natural solutions. I don't plan to, and never have, applied liberal iron applications of iron without a soil analysis to back it up. In the past, I would add about 1 pint ferromec per acre to my regular mix, and lawns with an iron deficiency would get a second application after I finished all the others and added more ferromec to the tank.

Now that I am cutting back on synthetics (I assume ferromec would be considered a synthetic), I will need a replacement product for those deficiencies.

New Jersey green sand is loaded with iron, ask Barry.

[atouchofnature]

Question is ... is it a lack of iron in the soil, or a soil condition that is the cause of the "deficiency"? Most soils have adequate iron, it is just not plant available. Your job is to determine if you can make the iron available by adjusting management practices, or if applying more is the only feasible option.



I have a gallon of ferromec I have had for 3 years. I mix a small amount in with molasses applications, when I actually use molasses, which is not very often.

Good point on the availability. I know that many soil conditions can hinder availability of nutrients. There are so many of these that I have a hard time memorizing them. I wish there were a "quick reference" type book or document I could find for those things. I have read the information many times, but have a hard time remembering where I found it.

I am working on a quick reference library to carry in my truck. I have been printing fact sheets, web pages etc and putting them into a 3 ring binder. It is filling up fast.

The fact sheets I have read usually only apply to one or two nutrients/micronutrients at a time. Does anyone know of a chart, or single document that shows a large number of these conditions that make various nutrients unavailable?

[atouchofnature]

New Jersey green sand is loaded with iron, ask Barry.

That is good to know. I have found a source for Jersey greensand at what I believe to be a good price. I haven't bought any yet, but the source tells me that their prices usually are $10 - $12 per 50 lb, depending upon market conditions.

I had planned to either mix greensand into my winterizer, along with cottonseed meal, in November, or possibly apply it in January along with soybean meal. Any input from anyone on those plans would be appreciated.

I have not heard, or read this, so it may be wrong, but it seems to me that greensand would release it's nutrients very, very, very slowly. Is that right or wrong? Any estimates or opinions in regards to this would be appreciated.

[phasthound]

New Jersey green sand is loaded with iron, ask Barry.

As a soil amendment it's good stuff.

marl or bog lime,soil, essentially clay mixed with carbonate of lime, highly valued as a dressing or fertilizer. It crumbles rapidly and easily. Marl in which the lime is in the form of invertebrate shells is called shell marl. The term is loosely used for a variety of soils, some of which are low in lime content, e.g., the greensand marl of New Jersey. Marling of soil tends to lighten it, correct acidity, and promote nitrification.

Here in some places of south Jersey as a geologic formation it is some of the worst stuff to grow plants in. Too much of anything is a bad thing.

[ICT Bill]

Good point on the availability. I know that many soil conditions can hinder availability of nutrients. There are so many of these that I have a hard time memorizing them. I wish there were a "quick reference" type book or document I could find for those things. I have read the information many times, but have a hard time remembering where I found it.

I am working on a quick reference library to carry in my truck. I have been printing fact sheets, web pages etc and putting them into a 3 ring binder. It is filling up fast.

The fact sheets I have read usually only apply to one or two nutrients/micronutrients at a time. Does anyone know of a chart, or single document that shows a large number of these conditions that make various nutrients unavailable?


You guys keep returning to bulk soil analysis, bulk soil and the Rhizosphere are 2 completely different areas.

you can show all the models you like of how this acidity affects that nutrient

The rhizosphere, which if we are talking plants, is much different. It is comprised of living beings, including the plant, that produce different enzymes, proteins, hormones some of them symbiotic, many cannibalistic. It cannot be portrayed in a bulk soil analysis format

This is a plant doing its photosynthsis thing and exuding nutrients into the soil to attract bacteria/fungi/living beings that have the characteristic that they need at the time

Living beings in the soil giving nutrients in order to get what it needs, making enzymes to dissolve it adversary, fungi catching nematodes to eat them because they are nutritious. exuding hormones to attract prey.

This is not "in an acidic environment where this element is available" according to the fertilizer science

it is much more dynamic than that, throw the damn thing out

Oh yeah..............Iron, sorry about that

[Grohorganic]

Anything in excess can cause a toxic condition, and in the case of iron (and others), can form insoluble precipitates with other required plant nutrients essentially removing them from the labile pool. Need to determine if there is a deficiency or an addressable condition before you start throwing stuff into your soils. I see way too many people just throw on iron to "fix" chlorosis, even when their soils are loaded up with the stuff. AMEN, and some over do it and as bill pointed out its like wild fire!!! maybe just go easy and do about a gallon or so per acre with 100 gallons of water.....if there is a need

and i use the lesco hi mag...... if it needs it................

[Kiril]

Someone needs to bring Bill back to reality and explain the mechanisms of plant nutrient uptake and their relative weight with respect to nutrient acquisition ...... again.

[ICT Bill]

Someone needs to bring Bill back to reality and explain the mechanisms of plant nutrient uptake and their relative weight with respect to nutrient acquisition ...... again.

REALLY!

Thank you for your brilliant insight into the rhizosphere and the mechanisms of the plant to soil exchange, If you could be a bit more defiant it would be ..... well more helpful than you are right now.

I am not sure what has gotten up your "whatever" lately but insight would be helpful, the constant "YOU"RE WRONG" not only, is not helpful, but is not useful

bulk soil tests are not the same as the area around the root.

Slime, enzymes, hormones, metabolites, bacteria, fungi, nematodes, microarthopods, worms. Exactly where are they in the chart of bulk soils. I cannot find them there for some reason, could you please explain why???

the charts and the basis of your thesis are based on macro and micro nutrient applications by the very people that manufacture the macro and micro nutrients and have for almost 60 years

Go to the USDA site that I posted and will again, http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publications/publications.html
the soil food web has been supported by the USDA for over 12 years. Are you actually saying that you have more resources than the USDA??


"bring Bill back to reality" ?? You bring defiance and nothing more to the table. Enlighten us with your in the field knowledege (as I keep asking) not some cite from 12 different sources

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy very much what you post and discuss, I just have an issue with how you are presenting it, recently

[Kiril]

Thank you for your brilliant insight into the rhizosphere and the mechanisms of the plant to soil exchange, If you could be a bit more defiant it would be ..... well more helpful than you are right now.

Bill, how many times have we gone over this .... 2 ... 3 times? You pretend like the rhizosphere and microbes in the rhizosphere are the only thing the govern plant nutrient acquisition. So instead of going off on a tirade, how about you do some homework and tell me what the percentage of plant nutrients are obtained via root interception.

Or better yet .... why don't you explain how you have come to the conclusion that mass flow and diffusion (i.e. the dominant processes by which plants obtain nutrients from the soil) are not worthy of consideration. Since you apparently have such a good grasp on this field, please also explain how the above two transport methods influence rhizosphere ecology. Please include discussion on spatial and temporal influences in your review.

bulk soil tests are not the same as the area around the root.

Slime, enzymes, hormones, metabolites, bacteria, fungi, nematodes, microarthopods, worms. Exactly where are they in the chart of bulk soils. I cannot find them there for some reason, could you please explain why???

So tell me Bill .... when you surface apply organics, microbial sprays, or any organic material/mineral, how is this material decomposing and moving as it relates to the plant? How do the vast majority of these plant nutrients get to the rhizosphere? Is there some mechanical method of injecting microbes/nutrients/organic matter directly into the rhizosphere of the plants that I am not aware of?

OR ....................

Do you think that perhaps properties of the bulk soil and environment in general play a large part in this process? After all the roots are growing in the soil ... right? Even if the above were not the case, do you have a cheap and effective method of sampling the rhizosphere as opposed to the bulk soil? And if you do, exactly what information is that going to give me with respect to managing a sites soils?

the charts and the basis of your thesis are based on macro and micro nutrient applications by the very people that manufacture the macro and micro nutrients and have for almost 60 years

What charts .... what thesis? Kindly explain what the hell you are talking about.

Go to the USDA site that I posted and will again, http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publications/publications.html
the soil food web has been supported by the USDA for over 12 years. Are you actually saying that you have more resources than the USDA??

Once again .... what the hell are you talking about? But since you brought it up ... and specifically mentioned the soil food web .... what does Elaine have to say about where microbes live in the soil?

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/soil_food_web.html

"bring Bill back to reality" ?? You bring defiance and nothing more to the table. Enlighten us with your in the field knowledege (as I keep asking) not some cite from 12 different sources

Tell you what Bill .... I will be more than happy to discuss my field experience with you when you provide the papers on the studies you have mentioned many times with regard to your products, but have never provided. In fact, you simply ignore my (and other peoples) requests for these publications you have referred to in the past.

Furthermore, what does "field" experience have anything to do with this? I am curious how much field experience do you have with a rhizotron or any other tool used to examine/study the rhizosphere?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy very much what you post and discuss, I just have an issue with how you are presenting it, recently

Sorry Bill, but when you exaggerate one point/factor ... which just so happens to promote use of your product ... and ignore all the other important factors, we will have a problem every single time. For the most part you are fair and impartial about the information you present, but at times the "propaganda" gets a little too thick to swallow.

[ICT Bill]

Yep, just like I said, defiance and no input. Sad really

I have told you and any that are interested, please email me and I will be happy to share the testing information we have. So you can drop that line that you use. It is BS anyway
There are already several companies that have taken my ideas on here, :waving:. Hi Steve and Jeff
bill@ictorganics.com

Ahhh, the Elaine stick, I didn't see that one coming. you should call Tom Vilsack at the USDA and tell him about it

I'll start another thread on the proper use of DNA sequencing the rhizosphere

"exaggreate" "propaganda" have you made a bid on an NFL team and been turned down, sure sounds like it to me

Ohh I see you just ripped off this article, pretty smooth http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=152740
so Gerryish

I will not waste my time on another "GERRY" that is really how you are coming off and I am not quite sure why

see ya :waving:

[Kiril]

Yep, just like I said, defiance and no input. Sad really

What the hell are you talking about Bill .... defiance? You have completely lost me. What am I being defiant against? Please answer the questions.

I have told you and any that are interested, please email me and I will be happy to share the testing information we have.

If you refer to these studies in a public forum, then you should be prepared to supply them when requested. Fact of the matter is you haven't, and your site does not have them either. Why must a person contact you personally to obtain studies that both you and your website reference?

Ahhh, the Elaine stick, I didn't see that one coming. you should call Tom Vilsack at the USDA and tell him about it

Bill, you brought up the soil food web ... I simply referenced the source of that information. Why are you refusing to comment on it?

I'll start another thread on the proper use of DNA sequencing the rhizosphere

And DNA sequencing has what to do with managing a sites soil?

Ohh I see you just ripped off this article, pretty smooth http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=152740
so Gerryish

Now you have stepped WAY over the line Bill and are dipping into slanderous territory.

First off, I have never seen that study ... but thanks for the link.
Second ... since you are accusing me of "ripping it off", how exactly did I do that?
Third .... what does any of this have to do with iron?

So Bill, are you going to answer the questions I presented to you, or are you going to continue to throw unsubstantiated mud in my direction?

[Kiril]

BTW Bill, in the event you have missed the link to one of the sources of information that I have posted on this forum several times with respect to modeling nutrient transport, here it is once again.

http://hopmans.lawr.ucdavis.edu/4_rootwater_nutrientuptake.htm

[phasthound]

What the hell are you talking about Bill .... defiance? You have completely lost me. What am I being defiant against? Please answer the questions.



If you refer to these studies in a public forum, then you should be prepared to supply them when requested. Fact of the matter is you haven't, and your site does not have them either. Why must a person contact you personally to obtain studies that both you and your website reference?



Bill, you brought up the soil food web ... I simply referenced the source of that information. Why are you refusing to comment on it?



And DNA sequencing has what to do with managing a sites soil?



Now you have stepped WAY over the line Bill and are dipping into slanderous territory.

First off, I have never seen that study ... but thanks for the link.
Second ... since you are accusing me of "ripping it off", how exactly did I do that?
Third .... what does any of this have to do with iron?

So Bill, are you going to answer the questions I presented to you, or are you going to continue to throw unsubstantiated mud in my direction?

Food fight!!!! :terribletowel::blob2::drinkup::clapping::help::gunsfirin

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

Yep, just like I said, defiance and no input. Sad really:


pretty much sums you up dude. you have a lot of nerve saying kiril ripped off a paper too:dizzy: but it's typical of you, ignore the questions, bash and run,


he's contributed more VALID and RELEVANT info to this site then you could ever hope to google cut and paste on here, ive learned alot from kiril and appreciate and value his input even if i don't agree, i can not recall ONE time i can say the same of you. it's funny how hard you try to pretend like you really know what your talking about.:laugh: im still trying to understand how you know so much about managing soils,lawns and landscapes when you have never been in the field??? and it's funny how all your VALID info:laugh: some how directly relates to your lame diluted products some how.

your overly generalized rants about how plants acquire nutes through rhizosphere biological process "only" while leaving out the other factors that contribute and effect the availability of the pool of plant available"SOLUBLE" nutes and your commits about nutrient lockout at different pH being a fert/chem company salesman ploy is laughable to say the least. it's basic chemistry and soil plant science
educate your self please, work smarter not harder it's embarrassing....

in a mostly well structured/chemically balanced /biologically thriving soil, nutrient availability/ pH is a non issue depending but we don't all work with perfect soils do we, well some don't actually work with soils or grow and manage plants for a living at all right bill???
i mean gerry, if all of the nutes needed for plant growth are in most if not all?? soils already just waiting for the bugs to release them to the plant? why would you suggest GREEN SAND as a fix??? is it about good sound advice or making you and your friends a buck???

please start DNA sequencing thread, love to see your angle on that and how ultimately it will relate to your products:sleeping:

[starry night]

Food fight? Ouch. I think growingdeep just threw dinnerware and a knife and fork.

[Grohorganic]

Slime, enzymes, hormones, metabolites, bacteria, fungi, nematodes, microarthopods, worms. Exactly where are they in the chart of bulk soils. I cannot find them there for some reason, could you please explain why???

OK.... what part of this don't you understand, they are minor roles, diffusion is the larger part of the system, by far.

and the rhizotron, what are you talking about DNA with that one for, bill dude do a google search first....think jumbo (TRON):laugh::laugh::laugh:


and that would be a good one to see, Bills DNA thread:drinkup::drinkup:

[phasthound]

pretty much sums you up dude. you have a lot of nerve saying kiril ripped off a paper too:dizzy: but it's typical of you, ignore the questions, bash and run,


he's contributed more VALID and RELEVANT info to this site then you could ever hope to google cut and paste on here, ive learned alot from kiril and appreciate and value his input even if i don't agree, i can not recall ONE time i can say the same of you. it's funny how hard you try to pretend like you really know what your talking about.:laugh: im still trying to understand how you know so much about managing soils,lawns and landscapes when you have never been in the field??? and it's funny how all your VALID info:laugh: some how directly relates to your lame diluted products some how.

your overly generalized rants about how plants acquire nutes through rhizosphere biological process "only" while leaving out the other factors that contribute and effect the availability of the pool of plant available"SOLUBLE" nutes and your commits about nutrient lockout at different pH being a fert/chem company salesman ploy is laughable to say the least. it's basic chemistry and soil plant science
educate your self please, work smarter not harder it's embarrassing....

in a mostly well structured/chemically balanced /biologically thriving soil, nutrient availability/ pH is a non issue depending but we don't all work with perfect soils do we, well some don't actually work with soils or grow and manage plants for a living at all right bill???
i mean gerry, if all of the nutes needed for plant growth are in most if not all?? soils already just waiting for the bugs to release them to the plant? why would you suggest GREEN SAND as a fix??? is it about good sound advice or making you and your friends a buck???

please start DNA sequencing thread, love to see your angle on that and how ultimately it will relate to your products:sleeping:

I don't recall anyone saying plants acquire nutes through rhizosphere biological process "only". When someone places an emphasis on a piece of the puzzle that doesn't mean he believes the entire puzzle doesn't exist.

Please explain how Bill & his friends are making a buck on greensand? When you are speaking to prospects/clients about the services you perform, is it only about sound advice or do you not charge for your services?

How about putting your energy into sharing instead of attacking?

[Kiril]

I don't recall anyone saying plants acquire nutes through rhizosphere biological process "only".

No, he didn't say that exactly, but he certainly implied it .... and this isn't the first time he has.

He also implied that soil chemistry is not worth considering .... and why? Even when considering the rhizosphere soil chemistry plays a role, along with a multitude of other factors that are directly related to the bulk soil, such as temperature, water, structure, pH, etc...... All these have a direct effect on rhizosphere ecology and it is simply wrong to think or imply they do not.

To be perfectly honest, I am not even sure where the whole rhizosphere rant came from, nor did he provide any information with respect to how one might go about managing the rhizosphere (if that is even possible) to increase iron availability.

Fact of the matter is Barry, we don't have any "direct" control over the rhizosphere unless we are talking about a lab in tightly controlled conditions .... and even then?

At best all we can hope for is to look at the system as a whole and make adjustments to that system in order to achieve/restore a natural and sustainable balance between all the parts.

As is the case with other plant required nutrients, maintaining a good level of organic matter and promoting good soil structure goes a long way towards alleviating problems associated with plant nutrients that are prone to forming insoluble precipitates ..... like iron, phosphorous, etc...

so that leaves us with a ...... compost does a soil good.

[phasthound]

Thanks Kiril. That's a very good answer.

[Smallaxe]

Yep, ... , ... pretty smooth http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=152740
...

Hate to interupt mutual contempt , but I had a thought about the conclusion of this study...

"Results indicate that P depletion from rhizosphere soil solution depends on plant species. Under the conditions of this study, corn, cottonwood, and smooth brome were more effective in depleting solution P than soybean and switchgrass. "

It occurred to me that corn may change more P into usable form because it needs more P in usuable form than soybeans. i.e. Was there a deficiency in the soybean or did they grow normally? Having adequate supplies of P?

The roots send out calls to the microherd to supply whatever nutrient is required, and the microherd in turn, makes the nutrient plant available by properly mining it from the soil.

It occurs to me that - fertilizer companies and soil testing facilities are not even putting this activity into the equation.
They simply assume they know what the plant needs and then adds to the soil whatever the testing numbers show. [Assumed needs + fert = mature plant]

If the equation was accurate - all numbers should be reset to zero '0', by the end of the season. Of course they are not. Most deficiencies would be a matter of environmental factors inhibitting the smooth transition from microherd to plant - such as drought.
Here is where a water soluable fert can 'make up' for lost time, whether N or Fe...

Lawns are simple in their environmental controls. The question is -- How best to manage environmental controls?!??!

[Kiril]

The roots send out calls to the microherd to supply whatever nutrient is required, and the microherd in turn, makes the nutrient plant available by properly mining it from the soil.

Lieutenant root hair 5598674903, gather the troops, we need P. :laugh::dizzy:

[starry night]

Lieutenant root hair 5598674903, gather the troops, we need P. :laugh::dizzy:

Smallaxe does have an amusing way of humanizing the rest of nature, doesn't he.

[atouchofnature]

I am learning a lot from this thread. I sometimes get a little obsessed when it comes to learning. When I decide I want to learn something new, I read everything I can get my hands on until I am satisfied with the level of my new knowledge. This thread has brought up so many things that are either new to me, or I am not satisfied with my current level of knowledge, that I don't think I will have a minute of being bored this winter.

Back to the iron .....

I have learned that NJ greensand & molasses are rich in iron, are there any other good natural sources of significant iron?

I have also learned that many soils have enough iron, but it is not available to plants due to other deficiencies, but have not learned what those deficiencies are. Can anyone fill me in here? I know that I have read the answer to this question somewhere before, but can't remember where, and I didn't retain the knowledge.

[Kiril]

Can anyone fill me in here?

Start here.

http://www.sesl.com.au/pub/articles/Soil_Conditions_&_Fertilisers_for_P_Sensitive_Plants%20.pdf

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

touchofN,

can you share what predominate soil types you deal with? have you soil tested?
pH? OM? ete?

iron binds very easily thats why cheleted forms work best if immediate results are required
work on getting your soil chemically balanced and pH in range.can't go wrong increasing OM so the bugs have a nice home/food source to work that soil and any organic material you wish to apply.
in the end compost does do the soil good

and molasses is not plant food it's bug food...

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

and that would be a good one to see, Bills DNA thread:drinkup::drinkup:

wonder if any chromosomes will be missing??? maybe somebody will have to personally email him for the full scoop?

[atouchofnature]

touchofN,

can you share what predominate soil types you deal with? have you soil tested?
pH? OM? ete?

iron binds very easily thats why cheleted forms work best if immediate results are required
work on getting your soil chemically balanced and pH in range.can't go wrong increasing OM so the bugs have a nice home/food source to work that soil and any organic material you wish to apply.
in the end compost does do the soil good

and molasses is not plant food it's bug food...

Soil is primarily clay. The last soil test was in late spring/early summer. Most lawns were good on NPK & pH. Any problems were corrected. I only ordered the NPK & pH tests. Based upon previous practices, and visual inspection, I believe OM is lacking on most. I plan to test again within the next week or 2, and order a more complete test this time, so that I can adjust my late fall fertilizer accordingly.

Based upon visual inspection, I don't believe iron is an issue at this point, with few exceptions, the lawns all have good color, and I haven't applied any fast release N in any sizable amount since mid-spring. I had been asking for future reference.

[atouchofnature]

Start here.

http://www.sesl.com.au/pub/articles/Soil_Conditions_&_Fertilisers_for_P_Sensitive_Plants%20.pdf

There is some good information in that publication. Thanks!!