Organic Based Fert.

[Pistol]

I purchased a decent quanitity of an "organic" fert. product with the following breakdown:

6-2-4
0.40 ammoniacal nitrogen
2.00% other water soluble nitrogen
3.60% water insoluble nitrogen*

Available phosphate 2.00%
soluble potash 4%
calcium 3.00%
sulfur 4.00%
Iron- 1.00%

Plant nutrients derived from:
Poulty manure, biosolids, ammonium sulfate, sulfate of potash

I have been touting an "organic fert. system" with my customers (there was a bit of confusion with the vendor on the "organic" aspect of what I wanted).

I assume this is not an 100% organic fert. (I'm not a chemist) My questions:
1) How bad is this fert as i try to transition these customers to organic?
2) Am I hurting my soil (in an organic mindset) using this product

Thanks

[ICT Bill]

I purchased a decent quanitity of an "organic" fert. product with the following breakdown:

6-2-4
0.40 ammoniacal nitrogen
2.00% other water soluble nitrogen
3.60% water insoluble nitrogen*

Available phosphate 2.00%
soluble potash 4%
calcium 3.00%
sulfur 4.00%
Iron- 1.00%

Plant nutrients derived from:
Poulty manure, biosolids, ammonium sulfate, sulfate of potash

I have been touting an "organic fert. system" with my customers (there was a bit of confusion with the vendor on the "organic" aspect of what I wanted).

I assume this is not an 100% organic fert. (I'm not a chemist) My questions:
1) How bad is this fert as i try to transition these customers to organic?
2) Am I hurting my soil (in an organic mindset) using this product

Thanks

NO you are not, IMHO

I think that is a good mix to move to "the dark green side"

The poultry manure normally comes from egg layer chickens, high in calcium and other great nutrients. a lot are tied up but we will get to that later

[atouchofnature]

Though I am far from an expert, just learning my way around organics, but it sounds like a good bridge product. I am still applying small amounts of synthetics to keep the lawn looking good while I am getting the soil where it needs to be.

[phasthound]

You'll do just fine with a product like that.

[Smallaxe]

"Sulfate of K", is really a problem? The other form is "Muriate"?
There was a discussion about the 2 different forms, and no real conclusions were drawn in my mind.

Is there an organic/natural source of K other than woodash?

[dishboy]

"Sulfate of K", is really a problem? The other form is "Muriate"?
There was a discussion about the 2 different forms, and no real conclusions were drawn in my mind.

Is there an organic/natural source of K other than woodash?

Alfalfa has good K numbers. 2.45, .05, 2.10

[NattyLawn]

I believe the OP is describing Nutrients Plus 6-2-4. You're not hurting your soil at all with this product. You're adding organic matter to feed the soil biology. Apply at 12-15lbs per k for best results.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

Apply at 12-15lbs per k for best results.
IS THAT PER APP OR PER YEAR?

[NattyLawn]

Apply at 12-15lbs per k for best results.
IS THAT PER APP OR PER YEAR?

Per application. I think the label says differently.

[Kiril]

but it sounds like a good bridge product.

........... Agreed

[Marcos]

Plant nutrients derived from:
Poulty manure, biosolids, ammonium sulfate, sulfate of potash

I have been touting an "organic fert. system" with my customers (there was a bit of confusion with the vendor on the "organic" aspect of what I wanted).

I assume this is not an 100% organic fert. (I'm not a chemist) My questions:
1) How bad is this fert as i try to transition these customers to organic?
2) Am I hurting my soil (in an organic mindset) using this product




I find it interesting and somewhat tell-tale that you elected to word your questions as if the glass is half-empty, not half-full.

In other words, deep down, I think you may be somewhat apprehensive of hearing potential negative customer feedback about ...'chicken ####"... being applied regularly to their lawns, am I right? :confused:

The development a organic organization's product list hinges not only on their cost and time efficiency, but also to a certain degree on the ethics standard of each and every customer taken individually.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certain there are plenty of folks out there applying composted chicken manure & biosolids as part of a bridge product & making lots of people happy. :waving:
But on the other hand, a smart organic business owner/operator should have 100% plant-based back up materials on hand for any customers on their list who may at some point become vocal and take offense to the use of animal by-products as components of lawn fertilizer.

[phasthound]

I find it interesting and somewhat tell-tale that you elected to word your questions as if the glass is half-empty, not half-full.

In other words, deep down, I think you may be somewhat apprehensive of hearing potential negative customer feedback about ...'chicken ####"... being applied regularly to their lawns, am I right? :confused:

The development a organic organization's product list hinges not only on their cost and time efficiency, but also to a certain degree on the ethics standard of each and every customer taken individually.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certain there are plenty of folks out there applying composted chicken manure & biosolids as part of a bridge product & making lots of people happy. :waving:
But on the other hand, a smart organic business owner/operator should have 100% plant-based back up materials on hand for any customers on their list who may at some point become vocal and take offense to the use of animal by-products as components of lawn fertilizer.

I agree with that.

[Kiril]

I find it interesting and somewhat tell-tale that you elected to word your questions as if the glass is half-empty, not half-full.

In other words, deep down, I think you may be somewhat apprehensive of hearing potential negative customer feedback about ...'chicken ####"... being applied regularly to their lawns, am I right? :confused:

And here I thought it was about using products than contain synthetics.

[phasthound]

And here I thought it was about using products than contain synthetics.

Yer just itching for a fight today ain't ya? :)

[Kiril]

Yer just itching for a fight today ain't ya? :)

Not at all ... just pointing out what I thought was obvious.

[Marcos]

Yer just itching for a fight today ain't ya? :)

No kidding! :dizzy:
At least the guy's taking a step in the right direction.

[NattyLawn]

I find it interesting and somewhat tell-tale that you elected to word your questions as if the glass is half-empty, not half-full.

In other words, deep down, I think you may be somewhat apprehensive of hearing potential negative customer feedback about ...'chicken ####"... being applied regularly to their lawns, am I right? :confused:

The development a organic organization's product list hinges not only on their cost and time efficiency, but also to a certain degree on the ethics standard of each and every customer taken individually.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certain there are plenty of folks out there applying composted chicken manure & biosolids as part of a bridge product & making lots of people happy. :waving:
But on the other hand, a smart organic business owner/operator should have 100% plant-based back up materials on hand for any customers on their list who may at some point become vocal and take offense to the use of animal by-products as components of lawn fertilizer.

Point taken. But I also tell customers that by using waste streams it keeps chicken poo and human poo out of their water supply and landfills. I can also talk about your soy, corn and alfalfa meals that are genetically modifed organisms (GMO's)that the farmer sprayed with RoundUp in the field and now I'm going to spread that on your lawn. Or feed it to my livestock. But that's OK, right?

[Marcos]

Not at all ... just pointing out what I thought was obvious.

And I believe an organic-newbie like Pistol should be aware of ANOTHER ethical perspective of the bridge product that may not have been so obvious to him/her.

But as usual, you have nothing to do but be Mr. Kiril Butinski Knowitall.

[Kiril]

And I believe an organic-newbie like Pistol should be aware of ANOTHER ethical perspective of the bridge product that may not have been so obvious to him/her.

I'm sorry Mracos .... where does ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics) come into Pistol's questions, or really have anything to do with this topic?

My questions:
1) How bad is this fert as i try to transition these customers to organic?
2) Am I hurting my soil (in an organic mindset) using this product

As you are so fond of saying .... stay on topic.

[Marcos]

Point taken. But I also tell customers that by using waste streams it keeps chicken poo and human poo out of their water supply and landfills. I can also talk about your soy, corn and alfalfa meals that are genetically modified organisms (GMO's)that the farmer sprayed with RoundUp in the field and now I'm going to spread that on your lawn. Or feed it to my livestock. But that's OK, right?

OK, I hear you about livestock & GMO's...

But explain how genetically modified grains used as meals for the purpose of
turf fertilizer affect the soil differently than those that are non-modified.

Good luck! :waving:

[Pistol]

thanks for all the feedback

I'm not at all apprehensive about the chicken poo - my customers want organic. I was worried about the synthetic component when I was telling them that this was 100% natural and organic - I now tell them that it's an organic based product!

I would love to use compost as a base fert., but the logistics just don't work yet. I don't believe that there is a true organic company working in this area - could be my niche .

[Marcos]

thanks for all the feedback

I'm not at all apprehensive about the chicken poo - my customers want organic. I was worried about the synthetic component when I was telling them that this was 100% natural and organic - I now tell them that it's an organic based product!



The wording "organic based" is fine in my opinion.

Just keep it in the back of your mind that as you acquire more customers, you'll likely run into some resistance here & there against the use of animal by-products.
And, you'll no doubt have X number of folks screening your company for its use of animal by-products before they'll give permission for you to give them an estimate.
If you don't offer an all-vegetable program option, you'll likely never know how much business walked away from you.

[phasthound]

The wording "organic based" is fine in my opinion.

Just keep it in the back of your mind that as you acquire more customers, you'll likely run into some resistance here & there against the use of animal by-products.
And, you'll no doubt have X number of folks screening your company for its use of animal by-products before they'll give permission for you to give them an estimate.
If you don't offer an all-vegetable program option, you'll likely never know how much business walked away from you.

Again, I agree with this. However I've rarely had this objection come up with residential clients. More often some landscape companies object. Go figure.

[Marcos]

I would love to use compost as a base fert., but the logistics just don't work yet. I don't believe that there is a true organic company working in this area - could be my niche .

You don't have to necessarily apply JUST compost to go all-vegetable.
You could look into working up some sort of year-long 3 or 4 step bridge program with some of the assorted high protein grain meals that are (probably) readily available to you at your local grain elevator.

Your organic components could be the meals or compost, depending upon customer preference.
Your non-organic components could be the (spot) weed controls.

[Kiril]

You don't have to necessarily apply JUST compost to go all-vegetable.

No, but it certainly makes the most sense and is by far the most sustainable.

You know ........ Compost Does A Soil Good ............. after all.

[Pistol]

What other options are available as "all-vegetable"? And I am not against 100% organic from acceptable sources. I do think people would be skeptical of "biosolids". Any help selling biosolids - if the question comes up?

Again, compost is not an option at this point (composted cow manure - 75 miles / veg. based compost - 90 miles).

This spring I will be using corn meal for prevention/control of brown patch - I'm thinking monthly apps of 10-20#/1000sqft. Hopefully it will prevent BP and supply some nutrients - haven't researched the nutrient value of corn meal. We had a terrible brown patch prob. this summer - i recently found a place that will grind corn and the price sounds right.

[nc-jrock]

Hi Pistol I have not been able to find any good veg-compost In bulk any where in the triad (or any that I trust).What part of the state is the veg-compost that is 90 mile away from you?

[Smallaxe]

What other options are available as "all-vegetable"? And I am not against 100% organic from acceptable sources. I do think people would be skeptical of "biosolids". Any help selling biosolids - if the question comes up?

Again, compost is not an option at this point (composted cow manure - 75 miles / veg. based compost - 90 miles).

This spring I will be using corn meal for prevention/control of brown patch - I'm thinking monthly apps of 10-20#/1000sqft. Hopefully it will prevent BP and supply some nutrients - haven't researched the nutrient value of corn meal. We had a terrible brown patch prob. this summer - i recently found a place that will grind corn and the price sounds right.

I found this written about the actual fungus "Brown Patch"...

"Remember that the fungus that causes brown patch is constantly present. It can not be eliminated. Your grass gets sick because it is weak and becomes susceptible to the disease. You can help keep the grass strong by fertilizing only when the grass needs it: during the cool months for fescue and during the warm months for bermudagrass."

The reason I posted it is because 10-20 lbs of corn meal/mo seems like and awful lot of stuff, even for NC. Up here that much meal would create more problems than it helped, in that just the rotting of the stuff would be undesireable.

[Pistol]

Smallaxe,
I need to try something to try and control brown patch. What I have read is to use 10#/1000sft for prevention, 20#/1000sft on an active brown patch outbreak. I'll let you know in the spring.

[Kiril]

Smallaxe,
I need to try something to try and control brown patch. What I have read is to use 10#/1000sft for prevention, 20#/1000sft on an active brown patch outbreak. I'll let you know in the spring.

composted poultry litter

[NattyLawn]

I think to control brown patch, you have to get the soil right. I don't necessarily think you need corn meal to control brown patch. Switching to organic fert and feeding the soil rather than feeding the plant should help. I did have my share of dollar spot this season with the rain and humidity, but I've only had 1 case of brown patch in 5 years of organic fert, and that was a 3x3 area where rain water was draining into. Treated it with compost tea, and nothing since (and no, I'm not saying CT is an effective fungicide).

Also, I'm in PA and you're in NC....A little different climate for me to consider as well.

[NattyLawn]

OK, I hear you about livestock & GMO's...

But explain how genetically modified grains used as meals for the purpose of
turf fertilizer affect the soil differently than those that are non-modified.

Good luck! :waving:

Less protein and putting more materials down? You got me there, but you tend to put down biosolids and poultry manure (waste streams) when there are arguments against your products as well. Both are considered organic based. You can get more nutrients out of the the waste streams with less material than the soy or whatever most products you're applying.

[Marcos]

Less protein and putting more materials down? You got me there, but you tend to put down biosolids and poultry manure (waste streams) when there are arguments against your products as well. Both are considered organic based. You can get more nutrients out of the the waste streams with less material than the soy or whatever most products you're applying.

Fine, OK, Natty, if you're just looking to maximize "nutrient" value, apply biosolids. :waving:
There's typically next to nothing in the way of protein left in biosolids for soil microbes to feast upon for any length of time.
That's why you may as well be applying Scott's 4 Step, as far as end-results are concerned.

Soil microbes survive and perpetuate themselves into the future with the use of PROTEIN.
If nothing in the way of protein is being applied, microbes will resort to whatever is at hand. Any and all sources will be tapped in to as they naturally land & decompose on the lawn or are mulched in.
The bar gets lowered as the protein sources dwindle.

It's the consistent use of protein in turf that typically enables it to be vigorous enough to successfully withstand most weed encroachment & crap like the aforementioned brown patch (if corn meal is applied in a timely way).

Taking factors like turf density, drought potential, customer ineptitude out of the picture for a moment...
The happier & well-fed the microbe, the better chance the TURF'S going to be happy, too! :)

[ICT Bill]

Fine, OK, Natty, if you're just looking to maximize "nutrient" value, apply biosolids. :waving:
There's typically next to nothing in the way of protein left in biosolids for soil microbes to feast upon for any length of time.
That's why you may as well be applying Scott's 4 Step, as far as end-results are concerned.

Soil microbes survive and perpetuate themselves into the future with the use of PROTEIN.
If nothing in the way of protein is being applied, microbes will resort to whatever is at hand. Any and all sources will be tapped in to as they naturally land & decompose on the lawn or are mulched in.
The bar gets lowered as the protein sources dwindle.

It's the consistent use of protein in turf that typically enables it to be vigorous enough to successfully withstand most weed encroachment & crap like the aforementioned brown patch (if corn meal is applied in a timely way).

Taking factors like turf density, drought potential, customer ineptitude out of the picture for a moment...
The happier & well-fed the microbe, the better chance the TURF'S going to be happy, too! :)

Proteins tend to be very diverse with the different carbs and sugars that are present as well

If you ate meatloaf for 2 years you would be selecting for a certain outcome. If you ate a diverse menu for 2 years your pants size would be different than the other scenario and probably healthier

You are also putting food down that selects for the microbes that like that type of food, grains have a lot of cellulose which fungi love

[Kiril]

Fine, OK, Natty, if you're just looking to maximize "nutrient" value, apply biosolids. :waving:
There's typically next to nothing in the way of protein left in biosolids for soil microbes to feast upon for any length of time.
That's why you may as well be applying Scott's 4 Step, as far as end-results are concerned.

Soil microbes survive and perpetuate themselves into the future with the use of PROTEIN.
If nothing in the way of protein is being applied, microbes will resort to whatever is at hand. Any and all sources will be tapped in to as they naturally land & decompose on the lawn or are mulched in.
The bar gets lowered as the protein sources dwindle.

It's the consistent use of protein in turf that typically enables it to be vigorous enough to successfully withstand most weed encroachment & crap like the aforementioned brown patch (if corn meal is applied in a timely way).

Taking factors like turf density, drought potential, customer ineptitude out of the picture for a moment...
The happier & well-fed the microbe, the better chance the TURF'S going to be happy, too! :)

Could you please present some peer reviewed literature that supports your assertion that microbes require protein in order to flourish.

[dishboy]

Fine, OK, Natty, if you're just looking to maximize "nutrient" value, apply biosolids. :waving:
There's typically next to nothing in the way of protein left in biosolids for soil microbes to feast upon for any length of time.
That's why you may as well be applying Scott's 4 Step, as far as end-results are concerned.

Soil microbes survive and perpetuate themselves into the future with the use of PROTEIN.
If nothing in the way of protein is being applied, microbes will resort to whatever is at hand. Any and all sources will be tapped in to as they naturally land & decompose on the lawn or are mulched in.
The bar gets lowered as the protein sources dwindle.

It's the consistent use of protein in turf that typically enables it to be vigorous enough to successfully withstand most weed encroachment & crap like the aforementioned brown patch (if corn meal is applied in a timely way).

Taking factors like turf density, drought potential, customer ineptitude out of the picture for a moment...
The happier & well-fed the microbe, the better chance the TURF'S going to be happy, too! :)

It appears that chicken manure does contain protien.
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/chicken-litter-animal-feed.htm

[Smallaxe]

Evidently the whole problem with "GMO"s is lost here.

The problem with 'homogenized' milk - that that the human body cannot deal effectivley with the modified fats.
The problem with Hydrogenated Oils is that the human body cannot deal with the modified fats.
The problem with GM Corn is that it now produces 12 protiens that you body cannot deal with.

Our bodies acquire the essential amino acids from protien through the activity of micro-organisms.
!!!So do plants!!!.

You want to modify the source, then modify the end-user as well. :)

[Grohorganic]

And here I thought it was about using products than contain synthetics.

the manure does not bother me so much as the manufactured/synthetic stuff just chucked in to get the #s up and for what reason????

and the impacts of the soy's chem based production, how does this help??? take 12-14 calories of synthetic chem based fert to get 1-2 soy calories??? skip the middle man and just use the chems...........

why not recycle?????????

[Kiril]

and the impacts of the soy's chem based production, how does this help??? take 12-14 calories of synthetic chem based fert to get 1-2 soy calories??? skip the middle man and just use the chems...........

Preaching to the choir. :waving:

[Kiril]

It appears that chicken manure does contain protien.
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/chicken-litter-animal-feed.htm

Don't tell Marcos that most of his post is unsubstantiated, you might incur the wrath of God, and then be accused of being a socialist and pulling the thread off topic.

[Smallaxe]

It appears that chicken manure does contain protien.
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/chicken-litter-animal-feed.htm

"Recycled animal waste, such as processed chicken manure and litter, has been used as a feed ingredient for almost 40 years. This animal waste contains large amounts of protein, fiber, and minerals, and has been deliberately mixed into animal feed for these nutrients."

:laugh: The chickens are eating their own version of Milorganite.
This is as stupid as the way we created Mad Cow Disease.

We are eating weak and diseased chicken, hogs and beef. Now with the GMOs it doesn't even help to go organic vegetarian. The vaccines and drugs is what we will live on.
Never, ever, give a sucker, an even break!!

[treegal1]

Don't tell Marcos that most of his post is unsubstantiated, you might incur the wrath of God, and then be accused of being a socialist and pulling the thread off topic. god is dead.................

[Kiril]

god is dead.................

That is what I heard too. :waving:

[dishboy]

god is dead.................


god may be dead, but God is alive!

[ICT Bill]

WAY off topic but.........

scribbled on a bathroom wall in blue ink was:

"God is dead" Nietzsche

below it in black ink was:

"Nietzsche is dead" God

[ICT Bill]

The full quote being":
"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"

[NattyLawn]

Fine, OK, Natty, if you're just looking to maximize "nutrient" value, apply biosolids. :waving:
There's typically next to nothing in the way of protein left in biosolids for soil microbes to feast upon for any length of time.
That's why you may as well be applying Scott's 4 Step, as far as end-results are concerned.

Soil microbes survive and perpetuate themselves into the future with the use of PROTEIN.
If nothing in the way of protein is being applied, microbes will resort to whatever is at hand. Any and all sources will be tapped in to as they naturally land & decompose on the lawn or are mulched in.
The bar gets lowered as the protein sources dwindle.

It's the consistent use of protein in turf that typically enables it to be vigorous enough to successfully withstand most weed encroachment & crap like the aforementioned brown patch (if corn meal is applied in a timely way).

Taking factors like turf density, drought potential, customer ineptitude out of the picture for a moment...
The happier & well-fed the microbe, the better chance the TURF'S going to be happy, too! :)

Marcos....So you don't think biosolids and composted poultry manure feed biology? Huh?

[NattyLawn]

"Recycled animal waste, such as processed chicken manure and litter, has been used as a feed ingredient for almost 40 years. This animal waste contains large amounts of protein, fiber, and minerals, and has been deliberately mixed into animal feed for these nutrients."

:laugh: The chickens are eating their own version of Milorganite.
This is as stupid as the way we created Mad Cow Disease.

We are eating weak and diseased chicken, hogs and beef. Now with the GMOs it doesn't even help to go organic vegetarian. The vaccines and drugs is what we will live on.
Never, ever, give a sucker, an even break!!

Glad you picked up on that, but I didn't want to take the thread in that direction.

[Smallaxe]

Glad you picked up on that, but I didn't want to take the thread in that direction.

That was as far as I read... :laugh:

We put food meals on the dirt to grow grass and we use chicken poop for food... We must be the great intellectual nation.

[Smallaxe]

The full quote being":
"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"

If we can kill God --then by definition-- It's not God, that we killed. If he can die , he is not God.
We like to imagine we have something to say about reality, but in reality there can only one reality.

Personally I like to believe that pre-m is an invisible barrier... :laugh: There's a reality...

[ICT Bill]

We like to imagine we have something to say about reality, but in reality there can only one reality.

Not in my world :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:

[DuWayne]

"Sulfate of K", is really a problem? The other form is "Muriate"?
There was a discussion about the 2 different forms, and no real conclusions were drawn in my mind.

Is there an organic/natural source of K other than woodash?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I thought 0-0-50 is an organic source.

[ICT Bill]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I thought 0-0-50 is an organic source.

If you went to www.organiclandcare.net and downloaded the standards for organic land care, mined products are not considered a sustainable resource. I personally do not have an opinion on that (IPDNHAOOT) (I think that will be a standard answer for me in the future)

If you would like to apply 0-0-50 you are probably not understanding the disruption that takes place when applying something like that

You are suddenly shifting the balance, not building fertlity

We are not trying to feed the plant, we are trying to build fertile soil

You can grow anything in fertile soil

[Smallaxe]

Like I said , no real conclusions about which is best... I'm not sure where Bill is coming from about adding K to the soil only shifts the balance and won't actually build any fertility.