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lawns Etc
10-17-2009, 09:54 PM
One of my lawns has a pretty large amount of grubs My question is will Merrit work well now I have always used it mid summer and had great results. I am in S Jersey.

grass4gas
10-17-2009, 11:02 PM
Use Dylox. It works quicker and is cheaper. Be sure that it gets watered in ASAP.

turf hokie
10-18-2009, 08:24 AM
Merit will NOT work for you this late, You need Dylox as stated above and it needs to be watered in.

HOWEVER, if you think dylox is cheaper than merit, you either need a new merit supplier or you need to re-do your math on the per k cost of the two products. We get merit w/ fert significantly cheaper than dylox.

Heidi J.
10-18-2009, 10:55 AM
Next year I am going to do some research and see if it would be better to try Arena or Aloft. It may cost more, but these grubs are kicking azz this year. They are still surface feeding, at this time of year..

We had some customers, that had dylox done in August, and in September we checked, and they still had big juicy grubs chomping away.:confused: A Bayer rep. told us Dylox only has a 24 hour residual after watering in.. Which should work.. I guess in Michigan.. we just have super grubs! :dizzy:

Runner
10-18-2009, 03:22 PM
August MAYYY have been a bit early this season for Dylox. Many weren't even hatched, and the very few that were, were very infantile. As a matter of fact, the way THIS year went, it wouldn't have surprised me if Merit would have worked with an August application. But yes, we sure have them active here, too, with the solid exception of course of those that were pretreated. The bad thing is, is that everything is still very moist, and we even had like 3 days of rain last week - so the damage is all being masked. I have shown some people what is happening in their yard, and while they are alarmed, it is sort of downplayed, because it doesn't look as bad as it really is. Wait until this next week when we have 6 to 7 days with no rain. This grass will really be discoloring then and it will be a wakeup call.

RigglePLC
10-18-2009, 06:51 PM
Odd. I saw some serious skunk damage last week. The kind of damage you get when skunks are digging up grubs for feeding. But I found no grubs. What is going on here?

turf hokie
10-18-2009, 07:15 PM
Odd. I saw some serious skunk damage last week. The kind of damage you get when skunks are digging up grubs for feeding. But I found no grubs. What is going on here?

Skunks ate them all.....

Heidi J.
10-18-2009, 07:18 PM
August MAYYY have been a bit early this season for Dylox. Many weren't even hatched, and the very few that were, were very infantile. As a matter of fact, the way THIS year went, it wouldn't have surprised me if Merit would have worked with an August application. But yes, we sure have them active here, too, with the solid exception of course of those that were pretreated. The bad thing is, is that everything is still very moist, and we even had like 3 days of rain last week - so the damage is all being masked. I have shown some people what is happening in their yard, and while they are alarmed, it is sort of downplayed, because it doesn't look as bad as it really is. Wait until this next week when we have 6 to 7 days with no rain. This grass will really be discoloring then and it will be a wakeup call.

Oh I agree. The way the weather was this year, you could have put merit down through August.. but who knew:confused: I noticed Friday on my way home, alot more skunk damage.. so you are right, we will have to wait and see.

Still waiting for my PM:)

Heidi J.
10-18-2009, 07:19 PM
Odd. I saw some serious skunk damage last week. The kind of damage you get when skunks are digging up grubs for feeding. But I found no grubs. What is going on here?

Hmmm...That is odd. Maybe turf hokie is on to something..:laugh:

sprayboy
10-18-2009, 07:55 PM
Odd. I saw some serious skunk damage last week. The kind of damage you get when skunks are digging up grubs for feeding. But I found no grubs. What is going on here?

Same thing here.
Treated an acre lawn yesterday that had skunk damage everywhere, couldnt find a grub anywhere.
Homeowner said they came home one night and there were three skunks out there. Lawn is in country and surrounded by fields.

mdlwn1
10-18-2009, 09:38 PM
One of my lawns has a pretty large amount of grubs My question is will Merrit work well now I have always used it mid summer and had great results. I am in S Jersey.

Most of my career was in S Jersey. I have never once used merit for grubs. Despite my opinion that it's borderline morally wrong, It's alot cheaper to use dylox.....and heres why. I only spot treat areas that are a problem. In 20 years, I have never maintained a property that could not be easily controlled this way..and that includes over 2000 residential chem accounts and over 1000 acres of commercial while working with my former employers. Secondly...mixing it with fert is not a good idea for a few reasons. 1. It's now impossible to apply more or less fert where it is or isnt needed without under or over applying the merit. 2. Nothin like putting merit where it doesnt belong...which everyone using a combo product will enevitably do. 3. Killing every grub in a lawn is as sane as trying to kill every earthworm. This isnt directed at you, but there will hopefully come a day when these newer guys arent allowed to blanket land with dangerous stuff that kills just about everything.....all for no reason. I'll never understand how having a problem on 1-2% of your turf leads to treating 100%....

Runner
10-18-2009, 09:57 PM
Using this principle and philosophy is very comparable to the idea of using pre-emergents selectively, as well. For instance, under all trees, objects, and along all north sides of buildings. This can mean 20 feet out times the length of the building. Simple rule of thumb,...crabgrass doesn't grow in shade. While not being as productive, it is a completely environmentally sound approach.
However, there can be times when not doing total coverage is not feasible. As soon as you only treat some areas, as soon as there is another area that ends up affected, then all the work in the treated areas was for nothing. A return trip would destroy your bottom line on these sort of things.

mdlwn1
10-18-2009, 10:11 PM
Using this principle and philosophy is very comparable to the idea of using pre-emergents selectively, as well. For instance, under all trees, objects, and along all north sides of buildings. This can mean 20 feet out times the length of the building. Simple rule of thumb,...crabgrass doesn't grow in shade. While not being as productive, it is a completely environmentally sound approach.
However, there can be times when not doing total coverage is not feasible. As soon as you only treat some areas, as soon as there is another area that ends up affected, then all the work in the treated areas was for nothing. A return trip would destroy your bottom line on these sort of things.

I was trained to apply what was needed where it was needed..fert,pre, insect. Maybe where I differ with most guys here is that I was trained (and still do) to maintain properties at a very high standard, charging much higher than average prices over a period of at least 5 years. As far as grubs go..if you spend more than 1 year on a property, you can usually tell where the problem areas are in advance. Sure there is some variance from year to year...but not much. When that time comes around every year..you start checking. A little tug here and there can tell you a lot about how things are looking. As far as return trips hurting your bottom line. They never hurt mine......over time. Some years are freebies (in fact most are).

tlg
10-20-2009, 10:32 PM
Odd. I saw some serious skunk damage last week. The kind of damage you get when skunks are digging up grubs for feeding. But I found no grubs. What is going on here?

I saw this too. I'm thinking maybe the skunks are going for sod webworms or plain old earthworms. Very strange.

ICT Bill
10-20-2009, 10:42 PM
I saw this too. I'm thinking maybe the skunks are going for sod webworms or plain old earthworms. Very strange.

and at the bottom of the hole is a 1/4 inch hole going deeper, we have it too in the mid atlantic

don't touch that dial, don't change that station

I do not know either but will hopefully find out

tlg
10-20-2009, 10:42 PM
Next year I am going to do some research and see if it would be better to try Arena or Aloft. It may cost more, but these grubs are kicking azz this year. They are still surface feeding, at this time of year..

We had some customers, that had dylox done in August, and in September we checked, and they still had big juicy grubs chomping away.:confused: A Bayer rep. told us Dylox only has a 24 hour residual after watering in.. Which should work.. I guess in Michigan.. we just have super grubs! :dizzy:

We also had a Dylox application fail. The application was done in mid Sept. on some very small grubs. One month latter and the grubs were still active. We seem to have had good results with our Imidicloprid apps though. I can't recall Dylox ever not working. Strange season.

tlg
10-20-2009, 10:49 PM
and at the bottom of the hole is a 1/4 inch hole going deeper, we have it too in the mid atlantic

don't touch that dial, don't change that station

I do not know either but will hopefully find out

Hopefully before the Monster Quest folks have it on the History Channel.:laugh:

cturf
10-22-2009, 10:31 AM
Timing is tough and everything. grubs will also build immunity to both products so try alternating with some mach II

cturf
10-22-2009, 10:49 AM
Tell your customer what every he does don't stomp on the skunk with his size 12.

ted putnam
10-22-2009, 12:25 PM
Tell your customer what every he does don't stomp on the skunk with his size 12.

:laugh: Surely he can tell the difference between a skunk and a opossum. Of course there are a few out there that probably don't have a clue.

mdlwn1
10-22-2009, 02:22 PM
We also had a Dylox application fail. The application was done in mid Sept. on some very small grubs. One month latter and the grubs were still active. We seem to have had good results with our Imidicloprid apps though. I can't recall Dylox ever not working. Strange season.

There are several different types of grubs. Some may come up now..or in a couple of weeks. I doubt that Dylox FAILED. If you have different grubs that come up closer at different times...the Dylox app is meaningless to them. Additionally..water alone will rarely get the product down to where it is needed. Sure if you have a nice sandy loam and no thatch layer..water alone may work. On some more dense soil types I can tell you from experience that unless they are right at the surface..as in dead grass......you wont do a thing to them with out aeration. Dylox does not fail.....the application work fails.

phasthound
10-22-2009, 04:49 PM
I was trained to apply what was needed where it was needed..fert,pre, insect. Maybe where I differ with most guys here is that I was trained (and still do) to maintain properties at a very high standard, charging much higher than average prices over a period of at least 5 years. As far as grubs go..if you spend more than 1 year on a property, you can usually tell where the problem areas are in advance. Sure there is some variance from year to year...but not much. When that time comes around every year..you start checking. A little tug here and there can tell you a lot about how things are looking. As far as return trips hurting your bottom line. They never hurt mine......over time. Some years are freebies (in fact most are).

I DO like the way you operate! :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

tlg
10-22-2009, 08:30 PM
There are several different types of grubs. Some may come up now..or in a couple of weeks. I doubt that Dylox FAILED. If you have different grubs that come up closer at different times...the Dylox app is meaningless to them. Additionally..water alone will rarely get the product down to where it is needed. Sure if you have a nice sandy loam and no thatch layer..water alone may work. On some more dense soil types I can tell you from experience that unless they are right at the surface..as in dead grass......you wont do a thing to them with out aeration. Dylox does not fail.....the application work fails.

While I appreciate your comment and your experience I can assure you that the northern masked chafers were feeding at the surface when the Dylox application was done. The application did receive sufficient water to move the insecticide into the soil. There was no thatch to inhibit movement. I have done thousands of Dylox applications over the years with excellent results so I really take issue with the mis application comment. As you may know the residual on Dylox is short lived and timing is critical for good control. We have had some unusual weather here in Michigan. Temps way below normal during the day and below freezing temps at night. The only thing I can theorize is that not ALL the grubs were in the " zone of control " when the application was made. Limiting control. Perhaps they moved deeper down from the point of inspection to the application 2 days latter. I can't say. Other companies within 100 miles of us have had similar experiences so as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out. Aerating before the Dylox application seems unnecessary to me . Grubs that are more than a few inches below the surface are going to be out of reach IMO. Aeration or no aeration.

foreplease
10-23-2009, 09:39 AM
My question is will Merrit work well now I have always used it mid summer and had great results. I am in S Jersey.
No, Merit will not work in October.

What I am seeing in southern Michigan is more like what Riggle has found than Runner and Heidi J have seen. I have not seen much of a problem this fall. The Japanese Beetles ran very late this summer.

Several years ago I had unacceptably poor results with Dylox on a ball field built on a predominately muck soil. The application was properly made and was followed by a good rain. In theory, I agree that aerating should enhance the rate and amount of a.i. reaching the grubs at a given depth. However, in many cases, turf with a grub infestation high enough to warrant a Dylox rescue type application will not withstand aerification.

That field is now on an annual Imidacloprid program. With the other choices available, it is unlikely that I will use Dylox again. The last thing a customer (non-profit organization in my case above) wants to hear about an unscheduled insecticide application is “we need to do it again.”

During the last two seasons I have used Aloft and Arena. Both worked well. The Aloft was applied to a newly grown baseball field last fall where I called for near zero tolerance. The previous field failed due to a long series of events that began with an untreated grub problem over multiple years. At the time when Imidacloprid would have been sprayed last summer there was no grass yet, so the fall application was the only practical choice. They now use Merit in July (or have been told to).

I used Arena late last spring on a few fields with grubs that had not used Imidacloprid the previous summer and had made no fall application. It was planned as a bridge type application to get them through all of 2009. At the time, the plan was for them to begin using Merit in July 2010 but I am concerned that will get cut if our Michigan school budgets continue to get slashed.

mdlwn1
10-23-2009, 11:39 AM
While I appreciate your comment and your experience I can assure you that the northern masked chafers were feeding at the surface when the Dylox application was done. The application did receive sufficient water to move the insecticide into the soil. There was no thatch to inhibit movement. I have done thousands of Dylox applications over the years with excellent results so I really take issue with the mis application comment. As you may know the residual on Dylox is short lived and timing is critical for good control. We have had some unusual weather here in Michigan. Temps way below normal during the day and below freezing temps at night. The only thing I can theorize is that not ALL the grubs were in the " zone of control " when the application was made. Limiting control. Perhaps they moved deeper down from the point of inspection to the application 2 days latter. I can't say. Other companies within 100 miles of us have had similar experiences so as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out. Aerating before the Dylox application seems unnecessary to me . Grubs that are more than a few inches below the surface are going to be out of reach IMO. Aeration or no aeration.

I did not mean to say YOU failed. I was trying to say that if dylox is applied to a grub...that grub is toast. You stated that dylox failed. Me saying the application failed is pretty broad..weather or not temps, soil characteristics, timing or insect variety played a role was not important,,,I was speaking literally. I meant no disrespect to you.

tlg
10-23-2009, 02:10 PM
I did not mean to say YOU failed. I was trying to say that if dylox is applied to a grub...that grub is toast. You stated that dylox failed. Me saying the application failed is pretty broad..weather or not temps, soil characteristics, timing or insect variety played a role was not important,,,I was speaking literally. I meant no disrespect to you.

Thanks for the clarification. The bottom line here was that there was in fact a poor result on our customers lawn. Their expectation of good results form what we applied is my main concern. After I thought about it more, and put my ego aside, it really did not matter what happened or where the blame was directed. We really did "fail" the customer. At least temporarily. Of course we will make it right and re-apply the application. After being in this business for close to 30 years I still will never know it all. I do appreciate your thoughts and ideas and welcome them. Gaining knowledge through others experiences can be the best education you can ever get. TLG

mdlwn1
10-23-2009, 02:20 PM
I'm not going to do this...but it would probably be worthwhile to determine with a magnifying glass if they are the same type or different types of grubs that are comming up at different times. Im new to new york from new jersey, so Im not aware if these long grub seasons are an emerging pattern or are specific to certain areas.