corn meal & fungus & other rambling

[atouchofnature]

I have googled like mad for several days now & haven't found anything to clear up my confusion, so I am hoping someone here can help me out.

I have read several places that corn meal can aid in the control of lawn diseases, which are caused by fungi.

I have also read that corn meal is a good medium for growing fungi.

These 2 things seem to be contradictory. My gut reaction is that maybe the corn meal encourages the growth of beneficial fungi, which then controls the bad fungi, but I don't want to rely on my own best guess. If anyone knows the answer to this, please help.

My reason for getting these thoughts into my head, was that I wanted to try & grow some beneficial fungi, on a very small scale, just for a science experiment of sorts, to try & understand it all a bit better. I haven't been able to find anything explaining how to do this yet, so if anyone has any input on that, please share.

Finally, I wanted to get a microscope so I could look at some of these micro-life to help my understanding, and maybe be able to look at my compost tea & get an idea of what is in there. I find a lot of student microscopes for low prices that magnify up to 600X for fairly low prices. Is this strong enough?

I know that I am covering several topics here but, since they were all related in regards to my current line of thinking, I thought it might be easier to put them all into one thread.

Thanks in advance for any comments or answers.

[NattyLawn]

How do you want to grow out the beneficial fungi? Compost or Compost tea would probably be your best bet. I don't know how you would grow that out in a controlled environment with corn meal.

As far as a microscope goes, I feel like Tim should be paying me a commission but check out www.microbeorganics.com You're not going to get a scope and the technical support he offers for anything close to his prices. I don't know if it's included with this scopes, but he also has a DVD that shows what the organisms look like under magnification.

[atouchofnature]

How do you want to grow out the beneficial fungi? Compost or Compost tea would probably be your best bet. I don't know how you would grow that out in a controlled environment with corn meal.

As far as a microscope goes, I feel like Tim should be paying me a commission but check out www.microbeorganics.com You're not going to get a scope and the technical support he offers for anything close to his prices. I don't know if it's included with this scopes, but he also has a DVD that shows what the organisms look like under magnification.

At this point, I don't know how I would grow it out. I have looked for "how to" articles online and haven't had any luck. I was hoping someone here might know how to do it, or know of a webpage that explains it.

I'll take a look at the microbeorganics site. I have looked at it before, but the layout of the page has thrown me off a bit. Another thread referenced buying a compost tea brewer from that site, but I couldn't seem to find a price.

[phasthound]

Tim's scope is a good deal even without the support he provides. The DVD's are very helpful.
You can order his brewer from KIS http://www.simplici-tea.com/index.html.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

600X is way too much mag. 100x-- 400x with 200x being the sweet spot.

you will not find a better scoop for the money unless you find the deal of the century on ebay or something then what Tim is offering.and you can take that to the bank.
his scopes have special filters to help view biology properly and IMHO truly needed to be able to see things that would not be other wise possible with a normal scope with bright field optic's only.

[atouchofnature]

Thanks guys.

Any suggestions on growing out the fungi?

[Tim Wilson]

Hi, you can grow fungal hyphae easily (if spores are present) by applying oat flour or powdered oatmeal to compost at 20:1 (one part flour) or apply fish hydrolysate to compost. It grows very fast in a liquid.
There are instructions on my webpage;
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Compost_Tea_Recipes

Compost tea brewer with price;
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Tea_brewer50
Microscopes with prices
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Microscopes_for_sale

The webpage is actually well organized just different because I chose not to use panels and preordained structure. Just go to the contents and click away.

The price is mentioned twice but I can see I should put it near the purchase and shipping area. Most people email me prior to purchasing.

[Tim Wilson]

Sorry I should give some better details for growing hyphae;

Assuming you have compost or vermicompost or soil which has fungal spores put two teaspoons in a pill bottle and fill 3/4 full with water (distilled is best) then put in 2 drops of; 1/ fish hydrolysate OR 2/ black strap molasses OR two pinches of 1/ oat flour OR 2/ kelp meal OR 3/ humic acid; Then put the lid on and shake like mad for 90 seconds, then remove lid and leave at room temperature for 12, 24, 36, 48 hours, taking samples to view with your microscope. OR all of the above for fun.

Alternative to compost, etc. I've grown hyphae from Premier sphagnum peat moss.

OR

take a mushroom cap which is showing gills and drop into a pail of water with black strap molasses and observe as above. A bit of sea salt prevents bacteria which might eat hyphae.

[Tim Wilson]

Okay, I've made a few changes to my webpage so you can actually tell I'm trying to sell some stuff. I'm a bad businessman. I just keep hoping the Smithsonian or someone will stick me in a basement somewhere to do research for the rest of my life.

[ICT Bill]

Thanks guys.

Any suggestions on growing out the fungi?
I love this, "the quest" I really mean it

It is such a passionate thing when found

what is important is to remember what your goal is, long term, focus, focus, focus

I have seen so many get caught up in tiny details that they forget how they planned to do well, by themselves and the community

the question to ask is:

why am I passionate about this and with my experience, what can I accomplish.

If you want to find it, make it, mix it, test it, apply it, bill it. you will soon find that you do not do well at one of the "it's"

Find what you do well, let others do the other "it's"

[ICT Bill]

Okay, I've made a few changes to my webpage so you can actually tell I'm trying to sell some stuff. I'm a bad businessman. I just keep hoping the Smithsonian or someone will stick me in a basement somewhere to do research for the rest of my life.

They have a smithsonian in Canada? just having fun

I am 30 minutes on a good day, 1 1/2 to 4 hours on a bad day from there. You would hate the traffic, you would need to find someplace close. The only problem is where you would keep the livestock

[atouchofnature]

Hi, you can grow fungal hyphae easily (if spores are present) by applying oat flour or powdered oatmeal to compost at 20:1 (one part flour) or apply fish hydrolysate to compost. It grows very fast in a liquid.
There are instructions on my webpage;
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Compost_Tea_Recipes

Compost tea brewer with price;
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Tea_brewer50
Microscopes with prices
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Microscopes_for_sale

The webpage is actually well organized just different because I chose not to use panels and preordained structure. Just go to the contents and click away.

The price is mentioned twice but I can see I should put it near the purchase and shipping area. Most people email me prior to purchasing.

Now I see what my problem was. I went to the site expecting a online store, that happens to give you a little information about the product. Instead, what you have is an educational site that just happens to have a couple of items for sale.

When I went to the site before, I just scanned through quickly looking for the price of a tea brewer, and missed the prices.

No offense was meant by the way, I was just thrown off a bit by the layout. Now that I see that your goal is to educate as much as to sell, I agree that it is well thought out.

[atouchofnature]

Sorry I should give some better details for growing hyphae;

Assuming you have compost or vermicompost or soil which has fungal spores put two teaspoons in a pill bottle and fill 3/4 full with water (distilled is best) then put in 2 drops of; 1/ fish hydrolysate OR 2/ black strap molasses OR two pinches of 1/ oat flour OR 2/ kelp meal OR 3/ humic acid; Then put the lid on and shake like mad for 90 seconds, then remove lid and leave at room temperature for 12, 24, 36, 48 hours, taking samples to view with your microscope. OR all of the above for fun.

Alternative to compost, etc. I've grown hyphae from Premier sphagnum peat moss.

OR

take a mushroom cap which is showing gills and drop into a pail of water with black strap molasses and observe as above. A bit of sea salt prevents bacteria which might eat hyphae.

I have molasses, kelp & humic acid. I have a bit of Bill's instant compost tea as well. I don't have any actual compost, but do have some composted manure. I think I will try several different mixtures, just for the sake of getting some comparisons of how each mixture performs.

Am I understanding you correctly, that mushroom caps have active hyphae growing on them? Or are you telling me to use the mushroom caps as a growing medium? Will any fresh mushroom work, or does it need to be a specific variety?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

[atouchofnature]

I love this, "the quest" I really mean it

It is such a passionate thing when found

what is important is to remember what your goal is, long term, focus, focus, focus

I have seen so many get caught up in tiny details that they forget how they planned to do well, by themselves and the community

the question to ask is:

why am I passionate about this and with my experience, what can I accomplish.

If you want to find it, make it, mix it, test it, apply it, bill it. you will soon find that you do not do well at one of the "it's"

Find what you do well, let others do the other "it's"

I agree 110%.

I don't intend to grow out the fungi on any kind of scale. Tim's pill bottle suggestion will definitely be enough for what my purposes are. I am looking to grow out a small amount for a few reasons:

a) to get an idea of how quickly it grows under various temperatures, to get an idea of what the minimum soil temperature to make it worthwhile to apply products containing fungi, such as compost tea

b) To better understand how quickly, or slowly these fungi grow

c) To better understand which "foods" (molasses, kelp, humic acid etc) get faster results, or better results.

d) to kill some time during winter

e) above all, to satisfy this curiosity where some sources say that corn meal will control fungus, and other sources say that corn meal is a good medium for growing fungus. Both pieces of information come from reliable sources, so I must be missing something. Since I can't find the answer, I want to grow some out and try adding it to corn meal to see what happens.

The corn meal thing is bugging me so much because I have had terrible conflicts with brown patch over the years. If corn meal will control it, I want to use it as a fertilizer in summer. On the other hand, if corn meal is a good medium for growing out fungi, I had thought about applying a light rate over a lawn, and then spray with compost tea.

I don't have the time, resources, education, or space to try and grow fungi or any other "good bugs" for the purpose of applying. Even if I did, I couldn't imagine being able to do it myself for the price that I can buy the bugs at. I'm pretty darn lazy, I'm definitely not going to give myself any extra work, as long as someone else is willing to do the work for a fair price. My time could be more profitable spending that extra time hanging doorhangers.

[NattyLawn]

The corn meal thing is bugging me so much because I have had terrible conflicts with brown patch over the years. If corn meal will control it, I want to use it as a fertilizer in summer. On the other hand, if corn meal is a good medium for growing out fungi, I had thought about applying a light rate over a lawn, and then spray with compost tea.

I don't have the time, resources, education, or space to try and grow fungi or any other "good bugs" for the purpose of applying. Even if I did, I couldn't imagine being able to do it myself for the price that I can buy the bugs at. I'm pretty darn lazy, I'm definitely not going to give myself any extra work, as long as someone else is willing to do the work for a fair price. My time could be more profitable spending that extra time hanging doorhangers.

OK...Do you apply a summer fertilizer? What's the analysis? If you're applying a high N fertilizer in the summer when turf's stressed and possibly going dormant, that could be your issue. You're feeding the disease. I don't apply a "summer fert". I usually apply worm castings or granulated compost or some other material that's a soil amendment, not a fert to push the turf when it doesn't need to be pushed.

If you claim to be "pretty darn lazy", then I would look into a company like KIS (I think Barry sent you a link) that can send you compost tea kits for most size brewers and Tim's Microbulator.

[Smallaxe]

... The corn meal thing is bugging me so much because I have had terrible conflicts with brown patch over the years. If corn meal will control it, I want to use it as a fertilizer in summer. On the other hand, if corn meal is a good medium for growing out fungi, I had thought about applying a light rate over a lawn, and then spray with compost tea. ...

What you seem to be talking about is already been done with the compost tea. Aerobically grown organisms that are beneficial rather than disease causing pathogens. The thin to remember is that microbes are everywhere, all the time.

In some situations of varying temps and moisture levels, different species of fungi are going to grow and flourish until the environment changes, then other species will grow and florish. Lots of different factors and lots of different species.

Brown Patch is caused by environmental factors that allow that particular fungi to grow and flourish. It isn't too much more complicated than that. Brown Patch eats living vegetative plants, whereas corn meal is a fruit of a plant and will be rotted by a whole different set of organisms.
Sounds like you're going into a fun project though. Keep us updated. :)

[Tim Wilson]

Am I understanding you correctly, that mushroom caps have active hyphae growing on them? Or are you telling me to use the mushroom caps as a growing medium? Will any fresh mushroom work, or does it need to be a specific variety?


Mushrooms which start spreading the gills at the underside of the cap release spores. I'm not practiced at it but if you put a couple tablespoons molasses in a 5 gallon pail with the cap in there, the spores sprout and form hyphae. This is a method used by Paul Stamets to 'seed' forest mushrooms. It probably won't work with certain varieties.

[Kiril]

The corn meal thing is bugging me so much because I have had terrible conflicts with brown patch over the years. If corn meal will control it, I want to use it as a fertilizer in summer. On the other hand, if corn meal is a good medium for growing out fungi, I had thought about applying a light rate over a lawn, and then spray with compost tea.

Perhaps these will help.

http://www.ccenassau.org/hort/html/fact_sheets/c233_rhizoctonia_disease_jan03.pdf

http://www.plantpath.cornell.edu/labs/ENelson/PDFs/Nelson_Boehm_2002a.pdf

[starry night]

Kiril: for us folks who are not a part of academia, those were two of the best links you have posted while I've been here. Touch: Interesting to me that composted poultry litter seems to have the broadest spectrum in fighting lawn disease. Maybe I will have to consider using some along with my yard waste compost applications. As I mentioned before, the yard waste, within weeks, eliminated a wide spread case of necrotic ring spot (which had gone on for 3 years) in a lawn I just acquired this season.

[atouchofnature]

OK...Do you apply a summer fertilizer? What's the analysis? If you're applying a high N fertilizer in the summer when turf's stressed and possibly going dormant, that could be your issue. You're feeding the disease. I don't apply a "summer fert". I usually apply worm castings or granulated compost or some other material that's a soil amendment, not a fert to push the turf when it doesn't need to be pushed.

If you claim to be "pretty darn lazy", then I would look into a company like KIS (I think Barry sent you a link) that can send you compost tea kits for most size brewers and Tim's Microbulator.

I don't normally apply a summer fertilizer. This year, I did apply 7 lbs/1000 sq. ft. of alfalfa meal in August because we had a very very wet summer, and I wanted to replace some of soluble N that I had applied in spring, which had undoubtedly leeched out, with a better source of N.

Over the years, there have been other times that I have applied fertilizer in summer, but only during very rainy years, only in small amounts, and little or no N.

My way of thinking was that if corn meal was an aid against brown patch, the small amount of N that would be derived from it would not be an issue. I would imagine that if it were applied at the peak of brown patch activity in late July/early August, summer would be gone before the N from the corn meal became available to the soil. Is this not correct?

[atouchofnature]

Smallaxe

What you seem to be talking about is already been done with the compost tea. Aerobically grown organisms that are beneficial rather than disease causing pathogens. The thin to remember is that microbes are everywhere, all the time.

My idea was that spreading a good medium on the lawn immediately before the application of the fungi would give the fungi a better chance of surviving until watered in the soil, and possibly increase the fungi. Maybe I am just creating extra work for myself, that isn't necessary. I suppose if the fungi not surviving to make it to the root system were an issue, far less people would be using compost tea, and those who did would have already figured out the perfect addition to help it survive. This fall when applying ICT's compost tea, I added some kelp extract, yucca extract & humic acid to the mix. My idea was to feed the good bugs with the humic acid & kelp, and improve penetration into the soil with the yucca. Based upon what I have learned in this thread, those things were likely plenty of additives.

I tend to sometimes make things more complicated than they need to be.


Tim Wilson

Mushrooms which start spreading the gills at the underside of the cap release spores. I'm not practiced at it but if you put a couple tablespoons molasses in a 5 gallon pail with the cap in there, the spores sprout and form hyphae. This is a method used by Paul Stamets to 'seed' forest mushrooms. It probably won't work with certain varieties.

Thanks for clarifying. I had never imagined anything like that would be possible.



Kiril

I have to agree with dirtandhoops. Those were some great fact sheets. I have to admit, a lot of the documents I find make me feel like I am reading a foreign language.

Again, it looks like maybe I am making things more complicated than they need to be. The publications seem to be saying that feeding the soil naturally with meals, compost & poultry litter will reduce brown patch. I have heard that before, and I guess after years and years of applying high N every spring and fighting brown patch all summer, such an easy way of keeping brown patch to a minimum seems too good to be true.


I always knew that high N applied in spring would greatly increase disease in summer, but I was taught that loading the lawn up with N was the way to get the customer the greenest lawn on the block. Of course, they were the brownest lawns on the block in summer. Now that I am learning about all of the harm I was doing all those years, I am almost ashamed to face the customers.

The fert & squirt companies industry sure know how to keep themselves working. You apply tons of synthetic fertilizers all year long, which compact the soil, and kill the earthworms with sevin, so you can sell aeration in fall. You apply high N in spring, so you can sell a fungicide treatment in summer. The fungicide kills the good fungi, making a weak root system and thinning the lawn so you can sell overseeding in fall. The surge growth from the soluble N at high rates causes thatch problems, so you can sell dethatching to go with the seeding. The weak root system leads to more damage from grubs, so you can sell an extra sevin treatment, which kills more earthworms and increases the need for aeration.

No wonder this is a multi-billion dollar industry.

The question is ....

Once I get the organic matter where it needs to be, and restore the biological balance, how am I going to make any money? (just kidding)

[phasthound]

[QUOTE=atouchofnature;3237989The fert & squirt companies industry sure know how to keep themselves working. You apply tons of synthetic fertilizers all year long, which compact the soil, and kill the earthworms with sevin, so you can sell aeration in fall. You apply high N in spring, so you can sell a fungicide treatment in summer. The fungicide kills the good fungi, making a weak root system and thinning the lawn so you can sell overseeding in fall. The surge growth from the soluble N at high rates causes thatch problems, so you can sell dethatching to go with the seeding. The weak root system leads to more damage from grubs, so you can sell an extra sevin treatment, which kills more earthworms and increases the need for aeration.

No wonder this is a multi-billion dollar industry.

The question is ....

Once I get the organic matter where it needs to be, and restore the biological balance, how am I going to make any money? (just kidding)[/QUOTE]

I love it when the light switch goes on in someone's head!! Thumbs Up:
Look me up at the Nutrients PLUS booth at the GIE & I'll buy you a drink. :drinkup:

[atouchofnature]

I love it when the light switch goes on in someone's head!! Thumbs Up:
Look me up at the Nutrients PLUS booth at the GIE & I'll buy you a drink. :drinkup:

I will surely do that, if I manage to make it. I am having a medical procedure done on the 27th, and I have heard various reports from people who have had the procedure, some say I should be back in the saddle by the next day, others say I will be down for the count for several days. I suppose everyone is different. I definitely plan to attend. I haven't been to the expo in several years, and I really miss it.

Do you know your booth location yet? Any chance you might have some product for sale with you? I would really like to try out a couple of bags.

[Smallaxe]

...
My idea was that spreading a good medium on the lawn immediately before the application of the fungi would give the fungi a better chance of surviving until watered in the soil, and possibly increase the fungi. ...

That is one question I have raised a number of times and never get a good discuusion or well thought out response on...

***What cultural practices would consistantly grow beneficial microbes and grass? What sort of foods would discourage the growth of pathogens and encourage the growth of beneficials??***

The answer to the second part would be compost for one, most definately, but that has a set of logistical limitations making it impractical for constant application.
I have removed the majority of pine needles, but yesterday mulched in the remainder along with some of the other leaves now coming down. This stuff will of course, eventually become OM and humic acid, but - Will the break down create a pathogen problem for the grass? I don't think so. We will be feeding the microbes that like dead plant tissue not living plant tissue.

[atouchofnature]

***What cultural practices would consistantly grow beneficial microbes and grass? What sort of foods would discourage the growth of pathogens and encourage the growth of beneficials??***

Kiril's Cornell link on the last page goes in that direction, explaining how various organic amendments/fertilizers aid in fighting disease. I really enjoyed the report. It is part 1 of 2 parts, and I haven't had any luck finding part 2, but there is some good information there.


The answer to the second part would be compost for one, most definately, but that has a set of logistical limitations making it impractical for constant application.

I agree. It seems to me that the fastest route to a perfect lawn would be to aerate & apply 1/16 to 1/8 inch of compost every month or so until the organic matter gets to a good percentage. Of course, as you have already said, that would not be practical.


I have removed the majority of pine needles, but yesterday mulched in the remainder along with some of the other leaves now coming down. This stuff will of course, eventually become OM and humic acid, but - Will the break down create a pathogen problem for the grass? I don't think so. We will be feeding the microbes that like dead plant tissue not living plant tissue.

That has been confusing to me as well. I have seen reports/studies on both sides of the fence. Some say that mulching in the leaves is only speeding up a natural occurrence (leaves decomposing into the grass) and is very beneficial. Others say that leaves contain too much carbon & rob the grass of too much nitrogen, and they encourage bad fungi.

Based upon the little that I know, it seems that the leaves could encourage bad fungi, and rob the soil of too much nitrogen if every single leaf from a large tree were mulched into the area beneath the tree.

I have decided to try a middle ground this year. I plan to vacuum the leaves, pour out the bag on the driveway & vacuum them a 2nd, and maybe a a 3rd time, until they are ground very fine. I plan to then spread a small amount of them over the entire lawn, then spray the lawn with compost tea, molasses, & kelp to encourage faster breakdown. The remainder of the leaves would be sent to a municipal composting site. The compost tea mixture would be applied with my November fertilizer/grain meal treatment, so would not be an added expense to the leaf cleanup. Any comments on that would be appreciated.

[Kiril]

Kiril's Cornell link on the last page goes in that direction, explaining how various organic amendments/fertilizers aid in fighting disease. I really enjoyed the report. It is part 1 of 2 parts, and I haven't had any luck finding part 2, but there is some good information there.

http://www.plantpath.cornell.edu/labs/ENelson/PDFs/Nelson_Boehm_2002b.pdf


Any comments on that would be appreciated.

Mulch them, as long as it is a reasonable amount (i.e. won't smother the turf). If there are trees dropping leaves, then the best place for those leaves is putting them right back where they came from.

What you are trying to achieve here is a natural balance in the system. This provides the best natural "pest" control due to keeping a natural set of checks and balances.

Geez, lots of "naturals" in there .... one more natural for the road ..... and naturally a compost does a soil good.

[Pistol]

Are compost tea applications going to do anything with the weather turning cold?

Also (Bill) when should 123 ICT applications stop?

[ICT Bill]

Are compost tea applications going to do anything with the weather turning cold?

Also (Bill) when should 123 ICT applications stop?

Soil microbes slow way down when the soil temp starts to get below 50, some like the environment (snow mold) others slow down to a crawl. Plant root growth continues until frozen so I would assume the rhizosphere guys keep going until then

There are no absolutes, definetly not after the soil has frozen, somewhere around the first "hard" frost. The good guys will hang out in the soil until the environment is the what they like, just like every year for the last several hundred million

[atouchofnature]

http://www.plantpath.cornell.edu/labs/ENelson/PDFs/Nelson_Boehm_2002b.pdf




Mulch them, as long as it is a reasonable amount (i.e. won't smother the turf). If there are trees dropping leaves, then the best place for those leaves is putting them right back where they came from.

What you are trying to achieve here is a natural balance in the system. This provides the best natural "pest" control due to keeping a natural set of checks and balances.

Geez, lots of "naturals" in there .... one more natural for the road ..... and naturally a compost does a soil good.


Thanks for the link I thought the first article was great. I am going to check into subscribing to Biocycle magazine.

I haven't read the 2nd article in full yet, but did skim over it a bit. It makes mention of compost extract. Is this the same as compost tea, or something completely different?

Thanks on the advice for the leaf mulching. It just makes sense to recycle the leaves onto the lawn. Of course, I have no intentions of putting on nearly enough to thin the grass, maybe a bushel of shredded leaves per 1000 sq. ft is what I had in mind. Should I apply a small amount of urea along with the compost tea to help speed up decomposition?

[ICT Bill]

Thanks for the link I thought the first article was great. I am going to check into subscribing to Biocycle magazine.

I haven't read the 2nd article in full yet, but did skim over it a bit. It makes mention of compost extract. Is this the same as compost tea, or something completely different?

Thanks on the advice for the leaf mulching. It just makes sense to recycle the leaves onto the lawn. Of course, I have no intentions of putting on nearly enough to thin the grass, maybe a bushel of shredded leaves per 1000 sq. ft is what I had in mind. Should I apply a small amount of urea along with the compost tea to help speed up decomposition?

This hits a real nerve for some, the question "is it the same as compost teas"

I will try to loosely define the difference
actually lets move this to a new thread instead

[phasthound]

That has been confusing to me as well. I have seen reports/studies on both sides of the fence. Some say that mulching in the leaves is only speeding up a natural occurrence (leaves decomposing into the grass) and is very beneficial. Others say that leaves contain too much carbon & rob the grass of too much nitrogen, and they encourage bad fungi.

Based upon the little that I know, it seems that the leaves could encourage bad fungi, and rob the soil of too much nitrogen if every single leaf from a large tree were mulched into the area beneath the tree.

I have decided to try a middle ground this year. I plan to vacuum the leaves, pour out the bag on the driveway & vacuum them a 2nd, and maybe a a 3rd time, until they are ground very fine. I plan to then spread a small amount of them over the entire lawn, then spray the lawn with compost tea, molasses, & kelp to encourage faster breakdown. The remainder of the leaves would be sent to a municipal composting site. The compost tea mixture would be applied with my November fertilizer/grain meal treatment, so would not be an added expense to the leaf cleanup. Any comments on that would be appreciated.

I pondered this for years too. Should I mulch them into my lawn or collect them & have my town make compost.

This is what I do now. All fallen leaves are mowed where they fall unless they come down in heavy rain storm. If they do I scatter them with a rake & blower, if conditions are right I'll mow them in when they dry. If not, they go in the compost pile. This turns out to be far less work then getting them all collected and placed at the curb. Aside from adding all this organic matter to my soil, it greatly reduces nutrient runoff from the leaves into the the river.

I'm also lucky enough that my town will deliver for free the compost they make from collecting other peoples yard waste. I spread this under my trees out to the drip line and plant shade loving shrubs & perennials. My lawn improves every year and no turf to care for under the trees and more interesting plants to enjoy. :)

[phasthound]

I will surely do that, if I manage to make it. I am having a medical procedure done on the 27th, and I have heard various reports from people who have had the procedure, some say I should be back in the saddle by the next day, others say I will be down for the count for several days. I suppose everyone is different. I definitely plan to attend. I haven't been to the expo in several years, and I really miss it.

Do you know your booth location yet? Any chance you might have some product for sale with you? I would really like to try out a couple of bags.

I hope your procedure goes well.
If you make it, look up Nutrients PLUS's booth location in the catalog. We won't be selling any bags.

Just so I'm clear, I own Tech Terra Organics which supplies several lines of fertilizers and natural products at manufacturer prices. I will be in the booth at certain times as a representative of Nutrients PLUS. While away from the booth, I'll be glad to discuss all the options that Tech Terra Organics provides to the landscape industry.

[Marcos]

meant to post elsewhere.....oops!

[starry night]

meant to post elsewhere.....oops!

Now that's a teaser if I ever saw one.

(Raining in Cincy, too?)

[Marcos]

Now that's a teaser if I ever saw one.

(Raining in Cincy, too?)

Sure as heck is! :waving:
Trying to get some paperwork done while reading a post or two here & there. :laugh:

[starry night]

Sure as heck is! :waving:
Trying to get some paperwork done while reading a post or two here & there. :laugh:

Same here. Getting out some bills. Love the work. Hate making out bills. I guess if I didn't do the bills, I wouldn't be doing the work for long. :)

Taking this thread way off base.

[atouchofnature]

I have been reading Paul Tukey's Organic Lawn Care Manual. In the book, it says that Mychorrizae applied to established turf is ineffective unless core aeration is performed immediately before the application, because it cannot make it to the roots otherwise.

Is this true? If so, please answer the following questions .....

I applied mychorrizae to quite a few lawns in late summer, in the form of ICT. Was it wasted?

I applied the same product to some lawns immediately after dethatching. Did the dethatcher likely open the soil enough for the good stuff to get to the roots?

I also slit seeded some lawns, and sprayed ICT immediately after. I assume the dethatching answer would also apply to slit seeding.

I aerated every lawn in late Sept & early Oct. Some had ICT applied immediately afterwards, others had ICT applied a week to 10 days later. Were the lawns likely still "opened up" enough at the time of application for the ones that were delayed?

I applied a different product that contained Mychorrizae to a few lawns over the past week, combined with a combination of of synthetic & organic fertilizers. This mixture also had one of those liquid aeration products added. I had the idea that as the product worked it's way into the soil, it might drag some of the good fungi in with it. As I said earlier, every lawn was aerated, and several were dethatched or slit seeded in late Sept/early Oct. Did I waste the product I used these last few days?

As a side note, that may or may not be relevant, in all of the above cases, yucca extract was added. In the case of the late summer application, there was some 2-4,d mixed in the tank at 2/3 the recommended rate. I had hoped that adding the yucca would increase the effectiveness of the herbicide so that I could get away with only 2-4,d and at the lower rate (I got a good weed kill by the way, so it must have helped). In the case of the later applications, I was thinking the yucca would aid in carrying the good stuff into the soil.

[Smallaxe]

I have been reading Paul Tukey's Organic Lawn Care Manual. In the book, it says that Mychorrizae applied to established turf is ineffective unless core aeration is performed immediately before the application, because it cannot make it to the roots otherwise.

Is this true? If so, please answer the following questions .....

I applied mychorrizae to quite a few lawns in late summer, in the form of ICT. Was it wasted?

I applied the same product to some lawns immediately after dethatching. Did the dethatcher likely open the soil enough for the good stuff to get to the roots?

I also slit seeded some lawns, and sprayed ICT immediately after. I assume the dethatching answer would also apply to slit seeding.

I aerated every lawn in late Sept & early Oct. Some had ICT applied immediately afterwards, others had ICT applied a week to 10 days later. Were the lawns likely still "opened up" enough at the time of application for the ones that were delayed?

I applied a different product that contained Mychorrizae to a few lawns over the past week, combined with a combination of of synthetic & organic fertilizers. This mixture also had one of those liquid aeration products added. I had the idea that as the product worked it's way into the soil, it might drag some of the good fungi in with it. As I said earlier, every lawn was aerated, and several were dethatched or slit seeded in late Sept/early Oct. Did I waste the product I used these last few days?

As a side note, that may or may not be relevant, in all of the above cases, yucca extract was added. In the case of the late summer application, there was some 2-4,d mixed in the tank at 2/3 the recommended rate. I had hoped that adding the yucca would increase the effectiveness of the herbicide so that I could get away with only 2-4,d and at the lower rate (I got a good weed kill by the way, so it must have helped). In the case of the later applications, I was thinking the yucca would aid in carrying the good stuff into the soil.

AM fungi is indigenous to every soil all over the world. Every variety in every habitat. The spores are likes seeds that go dormant when conditions are bad and germinate when conditions are favorable. AM germinates when in contact with a root of the host plant. Then it grows and spreads from there.

As a result, every lawn is AM fungi rich, within a couple of years, after seeding. Too much available P for their liking can cause them to become inactive and the lawn may grow on without the AMs, but the spraying at the surface seems silly to me. In fact it may become a new encouragement for surface growing roots - or as we like to call it - thatch.

What I am relaying is basic general botany/biology information. I would be very wary of "exceptions" to this general rule. In fact, I find it very difficult to believe, that there is no AM fungi, is in any soil I seed. Even the mixed and sifted soils from the construction yards.
If you do get a microscope you can prove that to yourself. Not by looking for them in the soil but rather in the roots after 1 year, then after 2 yrs., etc..
My question has always been:

** "Why would Southern Fungi want to establish and grow in Northern soils? They would simply eat up everything they could, the nutrients get cycled, then they are done. They will not be back next spring, because they are not inigenous to this region... All I really did by bringing them here is steal the food from my indigenous microbes. I believe in building the natural habitat for the natural critters."

[atouchofnature]

** "Why would Southern Fungi want to establish and grow in Northern soils? They would simply eat up everything they could, the nutrients get cycled, then they are done. They will not be back next spring, because they are not inigenous to this region... All I really did by bringing them here is steal the food from my indigenous microbes. I believe in building the natural habitat for the natural critters."

That makes a world of sense.

To ICT Bill -- I know that you can only respond on behalf of your company, but why don't you guys have region specific products? Is it a case that the microbes in your product are native to every region? I don't want to look like I am picking on Bill here, but I have used his products, and plan to keep using them and want to fully understand what I am using.

To Smallaxe -- I really get a lot out of your posts. Are there any books that you have read that you could recommend to me? The same question would apply to Marcos & Bill (though Bill has already given me a list). You guys have a gift for explaining things in "regular guy" terms.

Many of the books I have read are far over my head, and I didn't get much from them. I have been searching for some adult education classes in my area that would help, but had no luck. Too bad there isn't a "Microbes For Dummies"; a "Fungi For Dummies"; A "Soil Ecology For Dummies"; etc. Those would be right up my alley.

[phasthound]

I agree that AM fungi spores are everywhere, oops I just squished one on my keyboard. I also agree that if you can apply native ones that's the best way to go. Rutgers has 2 scientists who are teaching growers how to propagate native mychorrizae for their crops.

However, one of those scientists and Dr. Mike Amaranthus http://www.mycorrhizae.com/
have both told me that topical applications of spores will work just fine. This is not conjecture on their part, but is based on field experiance and on their understanding of how mychorrizae works.

They also have documented beneficial results of inoculation of non-native species. I would suggest using products that contain a large variety on species.

[Tim Wilson]

Hey Barry,

Hung over? Happy belated birthday. You know I phoned the Amaranthus office and told a woman who I was and asked for literature related to studies substantiating the above rhyzosphere application of AM fungal spores and never received a response. I think maybe she did not realize I'm a serious researcher. Do you know of any literature outlining trials? I don't care if it is not peer reviewed. I'm highly interested in the subject. My jury is deliberating but I'm skeptical.

[nc-jrock]

Hey Barry,

Hung over? Happy belated birthday. You know I phoned the Amaranthus office and told a woman who I was and asked for literature related to studies substantiating the above rhyzosphere application of AM fungal spores and never received a response. I think maybe she did not realize I'm a serious researcher. Do you know of any literature outlining trials? I don't care if it is not peer reviewed. I'm highly interested in the subject. My jury is deliberating but I'm skeptical.
I too would like some info on this.If you find any would you please let us know. Thanks

[atouchofnature]

The topical application thing makes sense. It seems that the fungi would grow in the direction that it needs to go.

Last spring, I applied a "living" mulch (70% hardwood bark/30% compost) to a customer's landscaped beds, and at the same time seeded & topdressed some bare spots on her lawn. Slime mold started growing in the bed, after it had spread over most of the bed, it started to cross the sidewalk, exactly in line with a small area that was topdressed on the other side of the sidewalk. I was thinking that it was surely coincidence until I read a study where slime mold spores were placed at the beginning of a maze, and compost placed at the end. The slime mold grew through the shortest route through the maze to get to the compost. I know that sounds far fetched, but it is true. That was one of the several things that dragged me over to "the dark green side" as Bill calls it.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s189608.htm

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/slime_mold.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/944790.stm

[Smallaxe]

The topical application thing makes sense. It seems that the fungi would grow in the direction that it needs to go. ...

The thing about AM though is that it won't start to grow at all, until it comes into contact with a root. That is what I have been led to understanding from the readings I've done.

As far as books are concerned, I took a Botany course in University, that covered the range of plant life, from single celled organisms to Angiosperms. We learned basic general principles from each category in as much detail as was time for.
From there, I was able to flesh out the basic understanding with various research articles that made sense to me. I would buy a magazine if it had something that sounded interestting, or "Victory Garden" on PBS when the host was the Editor of Horticulture Magazine.

Never have time to do a whole book of verbage. "Just the facts, Ma'am." for me. The internet has replaced hardcopy of most anything you want and it doesn't have to be produced to fit the "least common denominator".
Over my head - or - tedious, and redundant, I can just click a different article. :)

[Kiril]

The topical application thing makes sense. It seems that the fungi would grow in the direction that it needs to go.

Last spring, I applied a "living" mulch (70% hardwood bark/30% compost) to a customer's landscaped beds, and at the same time seeded & topdressed some bare spots on her lawn.

Was the compost mixed in with the bark? I wouldn't recommend mixing it in with the bark.

[Tim Wilson]

The thing about AM though is that it won't start to grow at all, until it comes into contact with a root.

That's also what I perceive to be the norm.

[ICT Bill]

That makes a world of sense.

To ICT Bill -- I know that you can only respond on behalf of your company, but why don't you guys have region specific products? Is it a case that the microbes in your product are native to every region? I don't want to look like I am picking on Bill here, but I have used his products, and plan to keep using them and want to fully understand what I am using.

To Smallaxe -- I really get a lot out of your posts. Are there any books that you have read that you could recommend to me? The same question would apply to Marcos & Bill (though Bill has already given me a list). You guys have a gift for explaining things in "regular guy" terms.

Many of the books I have read are far over my head, and I didn't get much from them. I have been searching for some adult education classes in my area that would help, but had no luck. Too bad there isn't a "Microbes For Dummies"; a "Fungi For Dummies"; A "Soil Ecology For Dummies"; etc. Those would be right up my alley.

It is a very broad question almost to broad to answer with any one sentence or paragraph, it can go either way depending on how "micro" you get.

"In general" the same bacillus bacteria that you have in north america you have almost everywhere else in the world, the same fungi you find in Michigan are also in Florida. there are seasonal and plant specific exceptions to that as well

If you look at the types of plants that are mycorrhizal and which ones they tend to like is really the key

Endo: have a wide range of plants that it associates with almost all plants (that includes trees, shrubs, perennials, annuals) there are many that are plant specific and others that do not give a hoot
Ecto: seem to like Trees better than endo, but there is a broad range of crossover
ericoid: seem to like harsh environments and seem to like plants in low PH environments that have hair roots instead of root hairs. Azaleas or blueberries is a good example

With DNA sequencing they are finding that there is a whole host of fungi and bacteria that like hosts (pun intended)

I agree with you trying to nurture the natives that exist, one of the ways to do that is stop applying Phos, fungi in general stop working when Phos is applied. Do not use N sources that release quickly, if you do use spoon feed amounts. Not the 1 pound per 1000 application that gets thrown around so often. Fish is used often as an N source, less is more in the long run

As Kiril says, Good FINISHED compost is an excellent soil food, high in organic matter and most of the nutrients are sequestered and release slowly. perfect for nurturing the natives

Why would you want to apply an inoculant, to get the soil food web going a little quicker than "years". If you look at the USDA site and their information on soils and the soil food web there is a thing called "succession" and another they talk about is "disturbance"

disturbance can be big or small, ride on mower going over the same area time and again causes compaction, this is a disturbance. New construction, the soil is piled up and spread all over, another, this time major disturbance. The soils have to start from scratch, they have to start with small bacterial colonies and build from there.

the compaction from the ride on has caused the soil to have little to no air, aerobic good guys do not like this environment and cannot thrive. It is the aerobic good guys that like the host environment most.

I forget the number exactly, but there are far more bacteria, fungi, etc in the rhizosphere than in bulk soils. Why? because that is where the food is. The plant does its photosynthesis thing and exude ....food! thru its roots

If you are able to take advantage of the root associations you can often get soils to come around faster. The most fertile place in the soil is at the end of a root

The microscopic endo and ecto mycorrhizae that you are applying are just that "microscopic" or "really tiny" and get carried into the soil with the water just fine. Where else would they go, is there some magic barrier, I don't think so

I don't know if I answered the question or not

[atouchofnature]

Was the compost mixed in with the bark? I wouldn't recommend mixing it in with the bark.

Yes, it was mixed in. I didn't order it that way, the guy who loaded my trailer took it from the wrong pile, and I didn't realize it until I was at the job site. I had reservations about using it, because I had never used it before, but decided to go ahead and put it on, thinking that the compost would put back some of the N that the mulch stole while decomposing.

Please explain why it's not a good idea. I have never used the living mulch, other than the one time, but have considered it.

[atouchofnature]

"In general" the same bacillus bacteria that you have in north america you have almost everywhere else in the world, the same fungi you find in Michigan are also in Florida. there are seasonal and plant specific exceptions to that as well

I was thinking that may be the case. It makes sense that if these bacteria have the ability to go dormant for long periods of time, that the bacteria that likes 40 degrees, that is in Florida soil, would just go dormant until the heart of winter & wake up at night. I am assuming that most of your products' bacteria prefers the mid range of temperatures, making it useful most anywhere. Is this correct?

I agree with you trying to nurture the natives that exist, one of the ways to do that is stop applying Phos, fungi in general stop working when Phos is applied. Do not use N sources that release quickly, if you do use spoon feed amounts. Not the 1 pound per 1000 application that gets thrown around so often. Fish is used often as an N source, less is more in the long run

I have never applied much phosphorous. In the past, I did add 25 lbs or 20-20-20 to a tank that covered 2 acres twice per year, otherwise, I didn't add any, unless soil tests called for it. Of course, I have now eliminated the 20-20-20, and the only synthetic I use is urea, and at only 1/10 - 1/4 lb N per 1000 at a time. I do still use some meals, and soybean meal, for example, is said to have 1% or so P. When you guys recommend eliminating P, is that only synthetic P, or should I also not be using meals that have small amounts?


The microscopic endo and ecto mycorrhizae that you are applying are just that "microscopic" or "really tiny" and get carried into the soil with the water just fine. Where else would they go, is there some magic barrier, I don't think so

That is one of the thoughts that made me ask, rather than taking the book's word for it. It just makes sense, that if water can make it to the roots, microscopic bacteria & fungi is going to make it in there as well. Synthetic fertilizers definitely make it to the roots faster than earthworms are taking it down there. It just seemed to me that the micro-life would hitch a ride with the water on it's way down, if it didn't have it's own way down. Thanks for clearing it up.

I don't know if I answered the question or not

Yes, you did answer. Thanks.

[Kiril]

Yes, it was mixed in. I didn't order it that way, the guy who loaded my trailer took it from the wrong pile, and I didn't realize it until I was at the job site. I had reservations about using it, because I had never used it before, but decided to go ahead and put it on, thinking that the compost would put back some of the N that the mulch stole while decomposing.

Please explain why it's not a good idea. I have never used the living mulch, other than the one time, but have considered it.

Bark (at least here) is considerably more expensive than compost. Compost mixed in will accelerate decomposition of the bark. I suggest compost first then top with bark.

[atouchofnature]

Bark (at least here) is considerably more expensive than compost. Compost mixed in will accelerate decomposition of the bark. I suggest compost first then top with bark.

That is a good point. I assume that your reasoning is that to put on the compost 1st would cause the bark to draw nutrients from the compost as opposed to drawing them from the soil, and mixing in the compost would also accelerate the decomposition by too much.

The prices are not far apart for the 2, in this area, at least from that particular vendor. They charge $24 for 1.5 yards of bark and $30 for the same amount of compost.

There is another vendor in the area that sells compost, topsoil or bark for $10 a yard, but it is not as good quality as the higher priced compost is. It has a lot of clumps of clay in it, (I assume the remnants of screening the topsoil get thrown into the compost pile) as well as a fair amount of trash (soda cans, candy wrappers etc) in it. The trash appears to be from employees throwing their snack/lunch trash into the compost.

Thanks again for your input.