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cpmnate
10-29-2009, 10:35 PM
This is my first year doing weed control I have a permagreen spreader and have only used lesco three way herbicide with ok results is there something better?

CHARLES CUE
10-29-2009, 10:45 PM
what rate are you using, ask your lesco dealer about a spreader sticker have you calibrated the sprayer. i use a 3 way and have great results what kind of weeds are you having problems with. some weeds hang on for week before they die some dont die easy may take several treatments
Charles Cue

whoopassonthebluegrass
10-29-2009, 10:55 PM
All depends on what you're trying to kill. For the simple weeds, Lesco's Three-Way was terrific (I haven't used it for a couple years, so I can't vouch for whether or not the formula's still the same).

Tougher weeds require tougher herbicides...

cpmnate
10-29-2009, 11:02 PM
I am follwing recommendations on the bottle should I be spraying more than once per year

whoopassonthebluegrass
10-29-2009, 11:14 PM
I am follwing recommendations on the bottle should I be spraying more than once per year

Wisconsin may have it's own rules, but EPA regulations only allow for 2 full, blanket applications of an herbicide containing 2,4-D.

That being said, you can SPOT SPRAY much more liberally.

And you SHOULD. Spraying weeds once a year isn't going to keep a lawn clean.

grassman177
10-29-2009, 11:37 PM
but if you put a bunch of horse crap on it it wil be so lush a weed could never even exist, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well sort of, the object in any turf program is to get the grass thick, the thicker it is the less weeds will ever have achance.

RigglePLC
10-29-2009, 11:48 PM
Spray early summer and fall. I use Lesco Eliminate herbicide. Fine with surfactant in skid sprayer in big tank, however with Permagreen I cannot use surfactant as it causes too much foam.

Grandview
10-30-2009, 08:51 AM
Spray early summer and fall. I use Lesco Eliminate herbicide. Fine with surfactant in skid sprayer in big tank, however with Permagreen I cannot use surfactant as it causes too much foam.

Riggle, Use a defoamer. Even without surfactants I have problems with foam, especially in the fall. I always carry a bottle of defoamer.

Kiril
10-30-2009, 08:53 AM
The best herbicide is the one not used.

Grandview
10-30-2009, 10:18 AM
The best herbicide is the one not used.

If I do not use herbicides customers do not like the results, do not pay and go else where. I do what keeps customers happy. That is my job.

Kiril
10-30-2009, 10:29 AM
If I do not use herbicides customers do not like the results, do not pay and go else where. I do what keeps customers happy. That is my job.

You missed the point

RigglePLC
10-30-2009, 10:38 AM
But Grandview if you use defoamer (I also use it at times)--does the defoamer reduce the wetting effect of the surfactant?

ted putnam
10-30-2009, 10:54 AM
The best herbicide is the one not used.

...unless absolutely necessary!


Kiril, I didn't miss the point, but I did feel your statement was a little...incomplete.:)

DA Quality Lawn & YS
10-30-2009, 11:18 AM
The best herbicide is the one not used.

Agreed, only use unless other control methods cannot do the job reasonably.

Grandview
10-30-2009, 11:38 AM
You missed the point

So what is your point?

Kiril
10-30-2009, 11:48 AM
So what is your point?

The point is to build & manage landscapes so they have little or no need for herbicides.

tremor
11-01-2009, 02:17 PM
That wasn't the guys question. He didn't ask for philosophical opinions. He asked for options to Threeway of which there are many.

What kind of weeds is Threeway missing for you?

whoopassonthebluegrass
11-01-2009, 05:44 PM
The point is to build & manage landscapes so they have little or no need for herbicides.

Which, ironically, usually requires herbicides to achieve that goal, unless you're fortunate enough to have installed it or have moronically tolerant customers.

Kiril
11-01-2009, 08:56 PM
That wasn't the guys question. He didn't ask for philosophical opinions. He asked for options to Threeway of which there are many.

........................

This is my first year doing weed control I have a permagreen spreader and have only used lesco three way herbicide with ok results is there something better?

And the best answer to that question is ....... the best herbicide is the one not used (a.k.a not needed).

rcreech
11-02-2009, 10:34 PM
WOW!

You are such a puke!

Couple more days and you will have 10,000 posts!

Keep up the good work Kiril!

mdlwn1
11-02-2009, 10:37 PM
Wisconsin may have it's own rules, but EPA regulations only allow for 2 full, blanket applications of an herbicide containing 2,4-D.

That being said, you can SPOT SPRAY much more liberally.

And you SHOULD. Spraying weeds once a year isn't going to keep a lawn clean.

Spraying once a year most certainly can keep a lawn clean.............

whoopassonthebluegrass
11-02-2009, 10:41 PM
Spraying once a year most certainly can keep a lawn clean.............

Only if that lawn is ultra lush. And, let's face it, such lawns are the exception, not the norm.

mdlwn1
11-02-2009, 10:43 PM
Unless your talking bare dirt...a full rate trimec with a heavy sticker is usually a one shot deal.

rcreech
11-02-2009, 10:45 PM
I always apply a blanket application in the spring and again in the fall.

People that spot spray will have more call backs and that is all there is to it.

If weeds have germinated and you can't see them...they will be raising their ugly heads a few weeks after you are gone!

My lawns look great here, but they are also non-irriagated so they thin out during hot/dry spells so we will never have that "spray once a year lawn" around here!

mdlwn1
11-02-2009, 10:50 PM
I always apply a blanket application in the spring and again in the fall.

People that spot spray will have more call backs and that is all there is to it.

If weeds have germinated and you can't see them...they will be raising their ugly heads a few weeks after you are gone!

My lawns look great here, but they are also non-irriagated so they thin out during hot/dry spells so we will never have that "spray once a year lawn" around here!

When you say blanket app..what do you mean exactly? My app is a 200 gal spray tank at about 1.25 gal/1000...doesnt miss anything. I do tend to hit anything obvious a little harder and with cool early spring weather the sticker is heavy. Have always experianced near 100% control this way.

rcreech
11-02-2009, 10:53 PM
When you say blanket app..what do you mean exactly? My app is a 200 gal spray tank at about 1.25 gal/1000...doesnt miss anything. I do tend to hit anything obvious a little harder and with cool early spring weather the sticker is heavy. Have always experianced near 100% control this way.

I am using a Z Spray.

When I say blanket app...that is I spray the entire lawn, or the opposite of spot spraying!

I am not taking the chance of driving over the lawn and missing small weeds I can not see!

Out of all the acres and apps I do...I bet I don't have 3-4 call backs a year.

That is what I want! :)

mdlwn1
11-02-2009, 11:04 PM
I am using a Z Spray.

When I say blanket app...that is I spray the entire lawn, or the opposite of spot spraying!

I am not taking the chance of driving over the lawn and missing small weeds I can not see!

Out of all the acres and apps I do...I bet I don't have 3-4 call backs a year.

That is what I want! :)

I meant how many gal/1000 and full rate?

rcreech
11-02-2009, 11:09 PM
I meant how many gal/1000 and full rate?

Ooops Sorry!

Gallons/k is really irrelelvant as the AI is all that matters.

I ALWAYS go full rate on herb rates unless tank mixing with somthing. I always "go for the kill" as dose makes the poision.

Cutting rates isn't good for anything!

I go .25 gallons/k and run anywhere from 1.1 -1.5 oz/k of Three Way and .02 oz/k of Quick Silver. The lower rate is used when spking with QS.

mdlwn1
11-02-2009, 11:23 PM
Ooops Sorry!

Gallons/k is really irrelelvant as the AI is all that matters.

I ALWAYS go full rate on herb rates unless tank mixing with somthing. I always "go for the kill" as dose makes the poision.

Cutting rates isn't good for anything!

I go .25 gallons/k and run anywhere from 1.1 -1.5 oz/k of Three Way and .02 oz/k of Quick Silver. The lower rate is used when spking with QS.

I think this where we may disagree. Gal/1000 can have a huge impact on effectiveness of AI. Example: Thick healthy lawn..little baby dandelion down undernieth. This is why I asked what was meant by blanket app. I hear of a lot of guys using z's or PG's having to do more than 1 app.

RigglePLC
11-03-2009, 10:02 AM
I agree with Creech. Excess water is not going to help. However you have to get the weed covered--spotty coverage is not going to do a thorough job. Golf courses and farmers often use boom sprayers-for the most complete, most even coverage, but no need for excess water.

rcreech
11-04-2009, 01:03 AM
Water does not increase kill!

mdlwn1
11-04-2009, 08:46 AM
Gentleman........First let me say I respect both you and Riggle and agree with the majority of what you guys say. It seems like your agreeing with me while disagreeing with me. Water increases coverage..increasing leaf coverage..to a point. Im not saying more water =more kill with no limit. I would absolutely wager any amount of money that 1 gal/1000 weed control apps will be more thorough and effective than .25 gal/1000 apps. I have a LOT of experiance in this. To say .25 is faster and "thats what we do" is valid, however no University personell or golf course super will agree that the level of effectiveness is the same. Water amount is critical for delivery. Delivery is critical for effective apps. Not sure if you experiance with fungicides, but for an exagerated example..try using Daconil(chlorotholonil) at full rate @ .25/1000 vrs 2.0/1000. Kinda surprised to hear this from both of you........

foreplease
11-04-2009, 09:51 AM
Hypothetically, whether we have equipment that can do it or not, what is the smallest amount of water per K that will provide great results with the typical three-way? For the sake of argument (not an actual application of course) ignore the label - what will work? Is the answer less water than is already in the concentrate? I don't mean on one weed, let's say over an easy to spray acre.

mdlwn1
11-04-2009, 11:59 AM
Hypothetically, whether we have equipment that can do it or not, what is the smallest amount of water per K that will provide great results with the typical three-way? For the sake of argument (not an actual application of course) ignore the label - what will work? Is the answer less water than is already in the concentrate? I don't mean on one weed, let's say over an easy to spray acre.

Hard to answer......Generally speaking..the guys who seem to need 2 blanket apps are using .25 on the riders. The guys that taught me and the ones I've known for 20 years use about 1.0 and do not need 2 blanket apps. If your able to evenly apply to the entire leaf area...I would speculate that .25 is fine. However in the real world the weeds are not all at the surface....as evidenced by the need to do a second blanket app.

whoopassonthebluegrass
11-04-2009, 12:07 PM
Hypothetically, whether we have equipment that can do it or not, what is the smallest amount of water per K that will provide great results with the typical three-way? For the sake of argument (not an actual application of course) ignore the label - what will work? Is the answer less water than is already in the concentrate? I don't mean on one weed, let's say over an easy to spray acre.

Too many variables. What size droplets? Are you using an adjuvant to break down water tension?

foreplease
11-04-2009, 12:33 PM
Great point, whoop. Let's stipulate if we hit it it will stick - so whatever that takes. I guess that leaves pressure, nozzle size, ground speed?

I am not trying to be a wise guy, I am interested in what folks think. I am at .41 gal/M and hit everything in two directions, so .82 really.

Kiril
11-04-2009, 12:59 PM
Before you guys dig too deep (especially the agronomists), you might want to read.

http://www.cotton.org/journal/2006-10/2/upload/jcs10-089.pdf

mdlwn1
11-04-2009, 04:24 PM
Before you guys dig too deep (especially the agronomists), you might want to read.

http://www.cotton.org/journal/2006-10/2/upload/jcs10-089.pdf

Why such a vague comment?..There are ag guys on both sides here. If someone doesnt understand the variations in delivery of AI's, I highly doubt they are going to read a cotton defoliation study and change their mind.

phasthound
11-04-2009, 06:43 PM
My thoughts are:

If you have to blanket spray herbicides twice a year to keep weeds out, you are not providing your clients with a thick healthy lawn. The exception would be clients in the first year of service.

A complete lawn care program of proper nutrition, soil biology, annual seeding, spot spraying weeds and includes mowing and irrigation guidance will eliminate the overuse of herbicides and save you money.

If you claim to be able to eliminate every single weed, you are setting yourself up for using too much pesticide or too many call backs. IMO, using too much pesticide has a negative impact on water quality and health issues. Too many call backs for a few weeds means expectations were set too high.

Kiril
11-04-2009, 06:51 PM
Why such a vague comment?..There are ag guys on both sides here. If someone doesnt understand the variations in delivery of AI's, I highly doubt they are going to read a cotton defoliation study and change their mind.

Guess you didn't read it then, did you?

rcreech
11-04-2009, 10:49 PM
Kiril only knows what he reads...and the real world is out of the book.

Md,

I agree that good coverage is needed...but water isn't the answer. As stated on here...using the correct tip, pressure and droplet size is critical.

On the ag side we go as low as 5 gallon/acre and get awesome kills. Remember that these products are systemic so all you need is the correct AI dispersed correctly. Dose makes the poision!

It isn't that we don't get good kills with using low volume...it is the weather that thins the turf. We are not dealing with irrigated lawns so even though we had an awesome year and plenty of rain, we still had a few dry periods.

No matter how good my program is...lawns thin out during drought!

We are really beating a dead horse because 2 apps are legal and needed. If you can get by with less then good for you!

FdLLawnMan
11-05-2009, 12:30 AM
It isn't that we don't get good kills with using low volume...it is the weather that thins the turf. We are not dealing with irrigated lawns so even though we had an awesome year and plenty of rain, we still had a few dry periods.

No matter how good my program is...lawns thin out during drought!

We are really beating a dead horse because 2 apps are legal and needed. If you can get by with less then good for you!

My point exactly. If all my lawns were irrigated and less tan 8,000 Sq. Ft. I could spot spray all year long. But they aren't, so I don't. What I do is perfectly legal, acceptable and works.

ted putnam
11-05-2009, 01:01 AM
My thoughts are:

If you have to blanket spray herbicides twice a year to keep weeds out, you are not providing your clients with a thick healthy lawn. The exception would be clients in the first year of service.

A complete lawn care program of proper nutrition, soil biology, annual seeding, spot spraying weeds and includes mowing and irrigation guidance will eliminate the overuse of herbicides and save you money.

If you claim to be able to eliminate every single weed, you are setting yourself up for using too much pesticide or too many call backs. IMO, using too much pesticide has a negative impact on water quality and health issues. Too many call backs for a few weeds means expectations were set too high.

Barry, don't take this the wrong way but that may work in Coolseasoncookiecutterlawnville but not here in WarmseasonBFEpasturetown. Lawns carved out of old pastures, empty lots and neighbors next door that don't do anything with what they have and very few protective barriers such as privacy fences make 2 broadleaf apps per year coupled with pre-emergence a very necessary reality. it's not that my lawns aren't thick, it's that there is competition coming from all directions. If I'm not able to keep the weeds out, my customers will find someone who can.

rcreech
11-05-2009, 07:31 AM
Barry, don't take this the wrong way but that may work in Coolseasoncookiecutterlawnville but not here in WarmseasonBFEpasturetown. Lawns carved out of old pastures, empty lots and neighbors next door that don't do anything with what they have and very few protective barriers such as privacy fences make 2 broadleaf apps per year coupled with pre-emergence a very necessary reality. it's not that my lawns aren't thick, it's that there is competition coming from all directions. If I'm not able to keep the weeds out, my customers will find someone who can.

Is it really that hard for people to understand that it is a must for 2 broadleaf apps?

If a guy is doing over a lawn once every 3-4 weeks I can see how spoting may work...but I am only going over the lawn every 8 weeks and I don't have that luxury (and don't want it)!

Grandview
11-05-2009, 07:50 AM
Here are my thoughts on volume. This is based on 20 years of turf experience and 3 years ag. For systemic herbicides on turf I use 5 gal/acre. I use air induction, floods, and Hi-Flow nozzles depending on where I am at and time of year. I have a 55 acre high end, very visible account that I have done for at least 12 years for broad leaf weeds, one app in the fall. I am thinking about trying 3 gal/acre. On the ag side Roundup is used at 10-15 gal/acre in vegetation that is 12 inches and taller. I figure with turf that is generally 3 inches or less I do not need all that water for coverage. Fungicides are different. I would use more volume since you want to cover the entire plant.
If I was trying to kill cotton for harvest purposes, 5 gal/acre probably does not give you the coverage you need. Cotton is probably 3-4 feet. That is a lot of foliage. Yesterday I looked at a lawn that I did 5-6 weeks ago. It was full of weeds including ground ivy when I sprayed it 5-6 weeks age. I used mid-rate 3-way at 5 gal/acre. I used a Z spray using a 140-08 Hi-Flow nozzle. 99% kill including the ground ivy.

Grandview
11-05-2009, 08:30 AM
To add to my previous post. I use 350 gal 3-Way/yr. 20 years experience does not mean much if a person only uses 2.5 gal/yr.

mdlwn1
11-05-2009, 08:43 AM
I think you guys are missing the point. An expert can adjust and do whatever he needs to do for effective apps. Way different than a random lawn guy riding a z using .25 in northern climates and needing 2 apps. Using crop studies doesnt tell the whole story here. In practical real world terms..there are too many variables that will not be mentioned by lawn guys. .....and Grandview...quite a leap with the 2.5 gal/year. I wouldnt have said a thing had I not had similar usage as your own.

phasthound
11-05-2009, 09:16 AM
Barry, don't take this the wrong way but that may work in Coolseasoncookiecutterlawnville but not here in WarmseasonBFEpasturetown. Lawns carved out of old pastures, empty lots and neighbors next door that don't do anything with what they have and very few protective barriers such as privacy fences make 2 broadleaf apps per year coupled with pre-emergence a very necessary reality. it's not that my lawns aren't thick, it's that there is competition coming from all directions. If I'm not able to keep the weeds out, my customers will find someone who can.

So, I shouldn't be making blanket statements about blanket applications? :)

Grandview
11-05-2009, 09:17 AM
.....and Grandview...quite a leap with the 2.5 gal/year. I wouldnt have said a thing had I not had similar usage as your own.

My comment on 2.5 gal/yr was not a shot at anybody. It was just a validation on my experience. I stated I have 20 years experience in my previous post but did not mention how much I spray per year. Next spring I will try and take pictures of lawns I do and post them. 5 gal/acre gives me excellent results.

ted putnam
11-05-2009, 09:39 AM
So, I shouldn't be making blanket statements about blanket applications? :)

:laugh::laugh: Good One! Right. I treated one the other day. Nice, healthy and green. The neighbor next door has a beautiful Foxtail lawn. I spent all summer beating the Foxtail back to no avail. It's too late to spray foxtail now so I ended up pulling a bushel basket of Foxtail out of my customers front lawn. The back yard has a privacy fence so there wasn't a problem in the back.

Kiril
11-05-2009, 09:41 AM
Kiril only knows what he reads...and the real world is out of the book.

So says the "agronomist" who apparently failed every weed science class he took, if he even took any.

foreplease
11-05-2009, 10:44 AM
Grandview, that is impressive and convincing. All of it.

rcreech
11-05-2009, 08:00 PM
So says the "agronomist" who apparently failed every weed science class he took, if he even took any.

Hey I majored in Alcohol and minored in frisby...what do you expect! :dizzy:

rcreech
11-05-2009, 08:36 PM
Here are my thoughts on volume. This is based on 20 years of turf experience and 3 years ag. For systemic herbicides on turf I use 5 gal/acre. I use air induction, floods, and Hi-Flow nozzles depending on where I am at and time of year. I have a 55 acre high end, very visible account that I have done for at least 12 years for broad leaf weeds, one app in the fall. I am thinking about trying 3 gal/acre. On the ag side Roundup is used at 10-15 gal/acre in vegetation that is 12 inches and taller. I figure with turf that is generally 3 inches or less I do not need all that water for coverage. Fungicides are different. I would use more volume since you want to cover the entire plant.
If I was trying to kill cotton for harvest purposes, 5 gal/acre probably does not give you the coverage you need. Cotton is probably 3-4 feet. That is a lot of foliage. Yesterday I looked at a lawn that I did 5-6 weeks ago. It was full of weeds including ground ivy when I sprayed it 5-6 weeks age. I used mid-rate 3-way at 5 gal/acre. I used a Z spray using a 140-08 Hi-Flow nozzle. 99% kill including the ground ivy.

Grandview,

One must know his/her products and pick the correct application rates and amount of carrier that is needed.

Everyone should know that if using a contact that increased volume is needed for coverage!

When using a systemic product such as we all use...high volume just isn't needed!

I toally agree with you on everything you said!

BTW...I also wanted to let you know that on the ag side most everyone is down to 5-7 gallon/acre....even on post apps.

If the beans are taller you just have to increase the pressure a little to atomize it a little more and get into the canopy! 5-7 gallons for gly is perfect!

With AI tips you can run upwards of 60-70 psi with very little drift...plus you are running the boom lower anyway~!

americanlawn
11-05-2009, 09:30 PM
Maybe I'm all wet here, but most turf herbicides recommend about 3/8 gallon per acre. We can get by nearly all of the time with a 1/4 gallon per 1000 sq ft rate, but if lawns are extremely weedy or if the grass is a foot tall, we might change nozzles and apply nearly 1/2 gallon per K when needed >>> I was challenged in this regard a few months ago regarding our ride-on units, cuz folks did not believe us regarding the volume of spray we applied. Example: a wind energy farm with 2 foot tall grass that was full noxious of weeds. The 1/4 per K rate just didn't get down to the weeds enough to provide adequate coverage. Folks never knew about our boom option we used either -- I'll keep that a secret for awhile to allow X-spray guys to criticize me even more.

Again I say - "If you haven't tried it, how do you know?" :waving:

ted putnam
11-05-2009, 09:55 PM
:hammerhead::dizzy:Where's my remote? Someone hit the mute button...

rcreech
11-06-2009, 07:47 AM
Maybe I'm all wet here, but most turf herbicides recommend about 3/8 gallon per acre. We can get by nearly all of the time with a 1/4 gallon per 1000 sq ft rate, but if lawns are extremely weedy or if the grass is a foot tall, we might change nozzles and apply nearly 1/2 gallon per K when needed >>> I was challenged in this regard a few months ago regarding our ride-on units, cuz folks did not believe us regarding the volume of spray we applied. Example: a wind energy farm with 2 foot tall grass that was full noxious of weeds. The 1/4 per K rate just didn't get down to the weeds enough to provide adequate coverage. Folks never knew about our boom option we used either -- I'll keep that a secret for awhile to allow X-spray guys to criticize me even more.

Again I say - "If you haven't tried it, how do you know?" :waving:

Hey Larry!

Why would the boom make a difference on how much you get done. Your already say you spray 12' with the "boomless tip" so how would a 12' boom increase your effeciency? Also...you said you did a cemetary that day also....surely you didn't use the boom there did you?

Just curious?

Before you said you only used 1 - T-3000 and just the other day you said you used 2 machine.

WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US THAT BEFORE????? ISN'T THAT SOME
IMPORTANT INFO?

Your numbers are much more realistic now. With 48 acres in a day...That is only 24 acres/machine.

That is much more believable as we can do that in a big day!

turf hokie
11-06-2009, 07:52 AM
:hammerhead::dizzy:Where's my remote? Someone hit the mute button...

Crap, I cant find mine either, its a conspiracy:cry:

ted putnam
11-06-2009, 09:56 AM
Just a guess here...I'm going to say there may be some psychological evaluations done before any "team" members are recruited in the future.

Ric
11-06-2009, 11:56 AM
Just a guess here...I'm going to say there may be some psychological evaluations done before any "team" members are recruited in the future.

Ted

Empty Drums make the most noise and they don't make Mute buttons for them.