No-till Lasagna gardening is Anti-green living

[mdvaden]

The forum description had "garden" management, so I'll post this here. Now, not many landscapers lasagna mulch, but some do, and many know gardeners who do it.

Last summer, I began to have some suspicions about the no-till sheet mulching sometimes called lasagna gardening. Not about whether its okay for the garden. But about what it means elsewhere.

The numbers I found were surprising as I put together and uploaded my new web page topic about lasagna gardening being anti-green. The practice is contrary to sustainable living in many regards. It made me more proud of having just generously mulched all these years and dealing with vegetation in a variety of other ways.

Its remarkable how much water, energy and oil use is increased when the putting paper down to just rot, causes new product to be manufactured. Plus the pollutants discharged into the air. Its the other side of the coin of sheet mulching. So the practice seems completely safe for home gardens, but has other consequences in our environment.

Apparently some cardboards can't be recycled and are okay for gardens. Those may be the best choices. Like greasy pizza boxes. Guess pizza is not too far from lasagna.

There are reams of articles for lasagna gardening. But I don't recall seeing the opposite presented. So it made sense to upload at least one page presenting the other side of this practice.

: - )

:)

[ICT Bill]

Its remarkable how much water, energy and oil use is increased when the putting paper down to just rot, causes new product to be manufactured. Plus the pollutants discharged into the air. Its the other side of the coin of sheet mulching. So the practice seems completely safe for home gardens, but has other consequences in our environment.

I am not following your drift or ream if you will. How does rotting paper cause new products to be manufactured?? and what kind of pollutants are discharged???

personally I like lasagna a lot, I have just never tried it in gardening. I'm a heap on the compost kind of guy

[pt03]

When stats are cherry picked and taken out of context it is sometimes easy to jump to a conclusion that is not necessarily true in all cases.

I can't help but notice this same theme posted on several forums now and wonder what the motive could possibly be.

There is a lot more to recycling costs than just the difference between the manufacturing of new products versus using recycled materials. For example, collection costs by the municipality, labor costs to sort, travel costs to get to a re-user, etc etc. To jump to a conclusion that these extraneous costs don't exist or are the same throughout all areas of Canada and the U.S. is a huge stretch.

Maybe some more "research" is in order.

Lloyd

P.S. I couldn't help but notice the chainsaw in one of your pictures, how environmentally friendly is that?

[ICT Bill]

I have reread that post a couple of times and cannot understand what he is trying to get at

[mdlwn1]

Other than getting really hungry.......I can t figure this out.

[atouchofnature]

This is all new stuff to me, but it has helped me decide what to have for dinner. I had excellent timing on reading this article.

I'm off to Pizza Hut!!!

[Smallaxe]

Lasagna gardening looks like Kr@... and appears to repel more water to the side where it puddles and evaporates, rather than soak in around the base of the plant.
Everytime I drive by one I think to myself, What an eyesore and those plants do not look vibrant at all!

[mdvaden]

I am not following your drift or ream if you will. How does rotting paper cause new products to be manufactured?? and what kind of pollutants are discharged

When paper or cardboard can be recycled locally, but is not, then new product must be made. That means trees must be cut and processed. On byproduct is Sulphur dioxide. Wikipedia has a page on that chemical, and a page on paper recycling too. So if gardeners start promoting putting cardboard under mulch to decay, there is less to recycle, thus more manufacturing accompanied by increased energy use and pollution. But if cardboard is not recycled locally, the sheet mulching in the garden may be the better option.

When stats are cherry picked and taken out of context ...

I Ican't help but notice ...

Lloyd

P.S. I couldn't help but notice ...

As a follower type who can be led, we can see that you "can" help but notice.

I doubt anyone is going to buy your sales pitch on "cherry picking" for long. But they can Google for facts or FAQs on cardboard recycling and paper recycling and find dozens of sources all pretty much in agreement.

[mdvaden]

Here's a few starter links, the tip of the iceberg for what's out there. Only difference, they just handle the cardboard or recycling end, not the connection with garden sheet mulching.

http://www.oroloma.org/poster_contest/recycle_facts.html

http://www.coworkforce.com/green/cardboardfacts.asp

http://www.girubbish.com/factsandtips.html

With minor variation, the cardboard and paper part is pretty much the same. This is one of those same-day ascertain the facts things. Very easy info to come by.

[pt03]

Mario, what you fail to see is the BIG picture with ALL the parts.

You don't have a clue.

Lloyd

[mdvaden]

Mario, what you fail to see is the BIG picture with ALL the parts.

You don't have a clue.

Lloyd

Thanks for bumping the thread Lloyd.

You write like you might be pretty new to the hobby and science of gardening and soil, even if your are not. From what I've read of your posts, I'd say that you have the small picture mentality. For example, if you ever taught about sheet mulching, I'd wager a 100% chance that you would omit any information about how using that cardboard might affect other aspects of culture. For that reason, I believe you are a follower, not a leader when it comes to getting information out there.

I don't paint the big picture for people. Merely add to it. It's up to each landscaper and gardener to figure out their own big picture.

Come back with some facts or science sometime. You complain a lot, and that's been the bulk of your posts. On Lawnsite and other forums, we like discussing and debating the facts and science, not the "I don't agree" mentality.

And honestly, other than your "I disagree" nature of posting, how can we take you at face value. Basically an anonymous user with no background to trace the opinion too.

[pt03]

Not a problem Mario, glad to help out with your ad count.:rolleyes:

What version of that web page are you up to now? Six, seven? Have you finally got it where you will hang your hat on it or do you intend to keep changing it as people with better knowledge come along and supply you with information?

I really enjoyed the Q&A, or was it a Q&Q?:dizzy:

And I still chuckle when I think of the copyright!:laugh:

[mdvaden]

Not a problem Mario, glad to help out with your ad count.:rolleyes:

What version of that web page are you up to now? Six, seven? Have you finally got it where you will hang your hat on it or do you intend to keep changing it as people with better knowledge come along and supply you with information?



Some pages like the redwood page in my signature has been revised 50, maybe 70 times.

Either way, the content still keeps growing every year.

Let's see your website to get an idea of your philosophy. Let's see your handiwork.


:)

[pt03]

Ha, ha. So that means you were wrong 50, maybe 70 times then.:dizzy:

No wonder why you have to, ahem, "borrow" knowledge from others on the sly.:laugh:

:walking:

[mdvaden]

Ha, ha. So that means you were wrong 50, maybe 70 times then.:dizzy:

No wonder why you have to, ahem, "borrow" knowledge from others on the sly.:laugh:



In this industry, I'd rather go for 70 versions, and be among those leading somewhere.

Even the classes I taught for tree care at the local college changed each consecutive semester. So I take pride in change, mistakes or success. People who rarely or never fail, only do so because they are not going anywhere.

Best part about my kind of mistakes, is that my references think those mistakes are worth hiring.



:)

[mdlwn1]

WTF are you guys talking about?

[Smallaxe]

In this industry, I'd rather go for 70 versions, and be among those leading somewhere.

Even the classes I taught for tree care at the local college changed each consecutive semester. So I take pride in change, mistakes or success. People who rarely or never fail, only do so because they are not going anywhere.

Best part about my kind of mistakes, is that my references think those mistakes are worth hiring.



:)

What is your opinion about adding N to decidous trees and shrubs every year or even twice a year?

[starry night]

WTF are you guys talking about?

You know, that's exactly what I have been thinking while following this thread.
Apparently, mdlawn, you and I don't understand the gravity of using or not using cardboard as garden mulch.

[mdvaden]

What is your opinion about adding N to decidous trees and shrubs every year or even twice a year?

Watching fertilized and unfertilized trees for the last 30 years has provided a comparison here.

For certain, added nutrients can improve or increase growth, and its a fact that Nitrogen is one of the essential plant elements. But in the early 90s I began to realize that many of the trees and shrubs which endured wind, rain and snow the best, were one not being fertilized.

And with some species like Japanese maple, added Nitrogen caused the natural form to be altered. Even one vine maple for example at our place that I just bought. The limbs are going more vertical than horizontal. And it will take several years without fertilizing for the forest-like branch form to return.

So I lean toward adding nutrients like Nitrogen if there is a known deficiency, but feel no need to add it afterward.

The options to weigh are rate of growth, plant health, altering the natural form and growth characteristics, and potential salts depending on what the Nitrogen is carried in.

[phasthound]

Watching fertilized and unfertilized trees for the last 30 years has provided a comparison here.

For certain, added nutrients can improve or increase growth, and its a fact that Nitrogen is one of the essential plant elements. But in the early 90s I began to realize that many of the trees and shrubs which endured wind, rain and snow the best, were one not being fertilized.

And with some species like Japanese maple, added Nitrogen caused the natural form to be altered. Even one vine maple for example at our place that I just bought. The limbs are going more vertical than horizontal. And it will take several years without fertilizing for the forest-like branch form to return.

So I lean toward adding nutrients like Nitrogen if there is a known deficiency, but feel no need to add it afterward.

The options to weigh are rate of growth, plant health, altering the natural form and growth characteristics, and potential salts depending on what the Nitrogen is carried in.

Exactly why I recently rejected a fertilizer application bid for mature trees at a County College. It called for a liquid root fertilizer 27-9-9 with low salt index applied at 4lbs of N/1000. I questioned them on these recommendations and explained why I felt this was improper protocol.

[mdlwn1]

Can someone explain lasagna mulching to me so I can get past this? i'm beggining to think this whole thread is a secret terrorist code.

[starry night]

Can someone explain lasagna mulching to me so I can get past this? i'm beggining to think this whole thread is a secret terrorist code. Think lasagna; think layering. I'll let someone else explain if they want to. The whole discussion leaves me cold and there's almost nothing less appetizing to me than cold lasagna.

However, smallaxe's question about trees / nitrogen and the subsequent posts are much more important to me. On an natural / organic forum, what could make more sense than "leafing" the trees alone? The forests and woodlands take good care of their own.

[Kiril]

Can someone explain lasagna mulching to me so I can get past this? i'm beggining to think this whole thread is a secret terrorist code.

Think sheet mulching is a stooopid waste of time ..... think compost does a soil good. :waving:

[Kiril]

However, smallaxe's question about trees / nitrogen and the subsequent posts are much more important to me. On an natural / organic forum, what could make more sense than "leafing" the trees alone? The forests and woodlands take good care of their own.

Fertilize when the plants starts showing signs of a severe, serious health impacting deficiency, otherwise leave them alone.

[Marcos]

There's a modest sized wholesale tree nursery not far from here that utilizes almost nothing for weed control but flattened large cardboard boxes held down mostly by drilled-out & worn-out used tires.

It's about the ugliest, nastiest scene you'd ever visualize in a nursery.
They don't do retail, so aesthetics in the nursery doesn't matter one ounce to them.

[starry night]

There's a modest sized wholesale tree nursery not far from here that utilizes almost nothing for weed control but flattened large cardboard boxes held down mostly by drilled-out & worn-out used tires.

It's about the ugliest, nastiest scene you'd ever visualize in a nursery.
They don't do retail, so aesthetics in the nursery doesn't matter one ounce to them.

So, giant black olive slices on top of the lasagna?

[Marcos]

So, giant black olive slices on top of the lasagna?

:laugh:

I guess that's what it might look like from a hot air balloon........NOT.
It would probably resemble Fred Sanford's backyard X 100.

[mdlwn1]

Think sheet mulching is a stooopid waste of time ..... think compost does a soil good. :waving:

Lol..i get THAT....it's just I dont even know WHAT sheet mulching is.....how bout a quick description please? All I heard was cardboard.....

[phasthound]

Lol..i get THAT....it's just I dont even know WHAT sheet mulching is.....how bout a quick description please? All I heard was cardboard.....

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/lane/sites/default/files/documents/Lasagna.pdf

[ICT Bill]

You guys do realize that as soon as this pimple faced pasta guy gets to a certain number of post he is going to say "yahoo" and be gone
This is all about viral marketing

Remember the other posts, 200 YEAH!!! I'm outta here

Its all about a payday

[Smallaxe]

Thanks for the affirmation... (about trees)

I also notice on many TGCL landscapes excessive weak, twiggy growth that seem to attract insect and disease. They then sell fungicides and insecticides to the clients.