Why use master valve

[PI&L]

I have been installing Res. for a few years now in the mid west with PVC and I keep hearing about master valves so my questions is why would you use a master valve?

[Wet_Boots]

Use a master valve for additional protection against stuck-open zone valves. The master valve will have a flow control, and you will throttle it down as far as practical, which improves its closing action.

Some installers would use one (more reliable) brand of valve for the master, and cheaper valves to control zones.

[hoskm01]

Also on larger systems for protection against stuck open zone valves and remote shut-down in the event of a mainline break (coupled with a flow sensor)

[MEXANDME]

If you are on a well and using a PUMP START RELAY instead of a PRESSURE SWITCH, does a MASTER VALVE add anything to the system?

(Trying to learn!)

Thanks / Regards,

Mex

[Wet_Boots]

With a pump relay, you still would like a pressure switch, in the event a zone sticks shut. That relief valve on the pump plumbing is not supposed to be a primary line of defense against problems.

[Mike Leary]

Some installers would use one (more reliable) brand of valve for the master, and cheaper valves to control zones.

I spec brass master valves since they work so often.

[American Irrig. Repair]

If you are on a well and using a PUMP START RELAY instead of a PRESSURE SWITCH, does a MASTER VALVE add anything to the system?

(Trying to learn!)

Thanks / Regards,

Mex

I wouldnt put one in with a pump start relay. If your pump shuts off you are doing the same thing.

[American Irrig. Repair]

I spec brass master valves since they work so often.

Ive never seen the casing on a master valve go bad. Why brass? They still have rubber diaphrams and the same solenoids as the plastic.

[Mike Leary]

I wouldnt put one in with a pump start relay. If your pump shuts off you are doing the same thing.

How the hell does a pump start relay do anything for a break?

[American Irrig. Repair]

Well,

Unless you have gravity feed when your pump is off you have no water, so your break wont matter just like a master valve.

[Mike Leary]

Well,

Unless you have gravity feed when your pump is off you have no water, so your break wont matter just like a master valve.

You are right in your applications: all my systems are on-demand, so a break does matter and a master valve is needed.

[American Irrig. Repair]

You are right in your applications: all my systems are on-demand, so a break does matter and a master valve is needed.

Agreed. I would install a master valve on a pressure switch triggered system, but would not if the pump is triggered off the Irrigation controller via a pump start relay. Thats just my opinion though.

[Mike Leary]

Agreed. I would install a master valve on a pressure switch triggered system, but would not if the pump is triggered off the Irrigation controller via a pump start relay. Thats just my opinion though.

Ditto.......

[PI&L]

Do most of you guys use them and would you use them on a resd. job?

[Mike Leary]

Do most of you guys use them and would you use them on a resd. job?

Without flow sensing, they're not worth it. I'd rather have the main/lateral blow and have someone call me. Most of our systems come on in the middle of the night, so who notices ?

[AI Inc]

Without flow sensing, they're not worth it. I'd rather have the main/lateral blow and have someone call me. Most of our systems come on in the middle of the night, so who notices ?

Thats the way I see it. No one knows when there is a stuck zone with a MV. I very rarely use em, maybe 2 % of installs.

[DanaMac]

Rarely see or use them. They are good for clients that travel, and may not be home for weeks or months. Great if the main breaks. Someone may notice the grass drying out first, but not see a swamp in the back corner of the back yard. I'd rather see the grass stress a bit, than to have a mainline wash out a rock wall.

But once again, rarely see them here.

[Mike Leary]

It's always a toss-up; like forward and reverse flow valves.

[EagleLandscape]

I like using them. Just an extra sense of security I guess. I also like putting a ball valve in front of every zone valve as well. Nothing like being able to shut the ball valve off 6" in front of the solenoid valve to service it years later. I hate bailing out "mainline's worth of water, to service a valve."

In my mind, the more shut-offs, the better, and easier service will be in the future.

[dlee1996]

You could make a argument for either or on the master valve. But I do like a ball valve on each zone valve. Like John has stated it is easier to work on the zone when you do not have all the main line water to deal with.

[Mike Leary]

No wonder there's a billion 6" pits in Texas. :rolleyes:

[American Irrig. Repair]

Do most of you guys use them and would you use them on a resd. job?

I put them on everything I do when I can (or when my guys dont forget :hammerhead:)

I hate getting calls in the evening or on the weekends because a customer doesnt know where to turn off the water because of a stuck valve. Its easier to just say turn off the clock until we can get there. I consider them cheap insurance to protect "my time".

In addition, round here we pay anywhere from 3-6 bucks per thousand gallons. If a customer had a main get cut, blow out, or valve stick on and run for a weekend at 25 gallons per minute your talking about an immediate 600 dollar plus water bill for those couple days. The likelyhood of that happening within the life of the system is very good(construction activity, aged valves, debris entering meter etc.). Might even happen a couple of times. Like I said, cheap insurance. My saving the twenty or thirty bucks on the valve, and wire just doesnt feel right when looked at in that light.

Also, dont forget that tiny leaks become irrelevant with a master valve. While I am not saying a leaky system is good, if you have a master valve and the main has a pin-hole it really doesnt make a big difference usage wise if it leaks for a couple hours while the system runs. Weve actually put in master valves for customers who have had tiny leaks that they didnt want to pay to locate.

[mitchgo]

Weve actually put in master valves for customers who have had tiny leaks that they didnt want to pay to locate.

Same as us.

[Inspired]

I like to manifold valves, but I really like to be able to isolate a manifold with a ball valve. Brass works best out here, the PVC ball valves lock up after a year or two.

I've offered master valves as an option for years, but few people choose them. many times (as stated above) its people who travel a lot and are looking for a feeling of security.

[American Irrig. Repair]

I like to manifold valves, but I really like to be able to isolate a manifold with a ball valve. Brass works best out here, the PVC ball valves lock up after a year or two.

I've offered master valves as an option for years, but few people choose them. many times (as stated above) its people who travel a lot and are looking for a feeling of security.

See where I am at manifolds are rarely seen. Allthough I know the benifits of a manifold I cringe when I see them. Around here when we see a manifold it was typically a homeowner install and that means all the fittings are jammed together with crappy valves and we most likely will be redoing the entire manifold when one of the valves cannot be rebuilt.

I suppose the benifits are greater when pulling pipe. When trenching its just easier to save the coin on the pipe, and put the valves where you need them.

[Wet_Boots]

See where I am at manifolds are rarely seen. Allthough I know the benifits of a manifold I cringe when I see them. Around here when we see a manifold it was typically a homeowner install and that means all the fittings are jammed together with crappy valves and we most likely will be redoing the entire manifold when one of the valves cannot be rebuilt.

I suppose the benifits are greater when pulling pipe. When trenching its just easier to save the coin on the pipe, and put the valves where you need them.And what make and model of valve are you not capable of repairing? (Orbit doesn't count)

[Inspired]

I know the feeling. Some of the installers around here aren't much better then the homeowners.

On most residential stuff you can close fit the Ts if you stagger the length of the TOE nipples so the valves are offset. Then use unions on one side of each valve. You remove the bonnet and the valve spins off. It's funny though. The better valves rarely need to be replaced. It's always the Hardware store valves installed by someone who never thought about serviceability.

[Inspired]

And what make and model of valve are you not capable of repairing? (Orbit doesn't count)

I just get tired of trying to find the parts. In the time it takes to drive back and forth, I can dig one out and replace it with a decent valve.

[Wet_Boots]

So what makes and models can you repair? :p

[Mike Leary]

I like manifolds. :rolleyes:

[American Irrig. Repair]

I like manifolds. :rolleyes

My eyes are burning... my eyes are burning...

[Inspired]

Ok, Mike. I like MY manifolds. Not yours.:dizzy:

[Inspired]

So what makes and models can you repair? :p

Mostly just Orbit.

[Mike Leary]

Ok, Mike. I like MY manifolds. Not yours.:dizzy:

That was a service call for a leak by others, that like the energizer bunny, kept going and going and.....

[American Irrig. Repair]

And what make and model of valve are you not capable of repairing? (Orbit doesn't count)

The repair crew I work with is three men including me. We can have the entire manifold replaced with good valves in the time it takes to run around trying to get crappy valve parts. I still dont like replacing them though. I quit working on trashy valves about five years ago. Too many repetitive callbacks. I like making my money upfront, and the customers like to not have to see me for a while. :) In the one inch line I will rebuild 205's (and any of the various variants), 2400's (sometimes) if the 90 degree bleed ports aint clogged, rb dv valves, hunter valves and honestly thats about it. We generally use most of the toro valves as wheel chocks. Orbit is not a valve, its a lump of (fill in dis-tastefull word here) When I work on a valve I replace everything. It gets all new parts(with rare exceptions). Pays better, and gives the customer better long term value.

But of course, these are just my opinions. :)

[Wet_Boots]

Obviously, if you don't carry the parts, you are going to look to replace. For most models valves I don't install, I try to have a spare valve or two to strip parts from.

I just have to smile when I read how a valve that served faithfully for a decade or so can't be renewed with a diaphragm and/or solenoid, and that replacement is the only option.

[Mike Leary]

I just have to smile when I read how a valve that served faithfully for a decade or so can't be renewed with a diaphragm and/or solenoid, and that replacement is the only option.

Yup.....ditto that.

[ARGOS]

Around here carrying replacement parts for 205s covers most of it.

[American Irrig. Repair]

Obviously, if you don't carry the parts, you are going to look to replace. For most models valves I don't install, I try to have a spare valve or two to strip parts from.

I just have to smile when I read how a valve that served faithfully for a decade or so can't be renewed with a diaphragm and/or solenoid, and that replacement is the only option.

I suppose I could do that with some of these two year old weathermatic valves Ive been cutting out, but then one would have to assume the new ones would only last as long...

[Wet_Boots]

W*M valve mechanicals are probably equal to anything you install in most residential systems. Solenoids are another story.

[Mike Leary]

I suppose I could do that with some of these two year old weathermatic valves Ive been cutting out, but then one would have to assume the new ones would only last as long...

That I cannot believe; what is going wrong with them?

[Inspired]

I don't see anything wrong with WM valves, except the solenoid. I'm told the solenoid issue has been solved..... We'll see I guess.

[mitchgo]

they better be solved for the price of them...

[American Irrig. Repair]

That I cannot believe; what is going wrong with them?

Solenoids going out is masses at a couple years old. The diaphrams also fail before they should. Ive had several different jobs where all of the valve diaphrams have been bad. Ive been seeing diaprhams fail as early as 3 to 5 years.

On this guys I suppose we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think weathermatic valves suck. I wouldnt put them on any job. While I agree that the casing, springs, or bonnets dont seem to fail, that would be like saying a car was good that had a crappy engine and transmission.

Maybee its our hard water, I dunno but the only place a weathermatic valve looks good to me is in the bottom of a dumpster.

[Wet_Boots]

I haven't encountered diaphragm failures on the W*M valves, but I only see them in service these days. I would think the reverse flow design would provide some protection against failure.

[Tom Tom]

Ive had several different jobs where all of the valve diaphrams have been bad. Ive been seeing diaprhams fail as early as 3 to 5 years.

.


Which model?

[Mike Leary]

We must have over a thousand W*M valves in service. I honestly can't remember when I last changed a diaphragm; with the exception of the solenoid issue, which has been dealt with, I think they're the finest reverse flow valve on the market. My question would be, "how do your diaphragms fail?" Do they have tears in them or too floppy?

[EagleLandscape]

No wonder there's a billion 6" pits in Texas. :rolleyes:

Not when you put a 1" valve in a small rectangular box. I can't remember the last time I bought a 6" box. We mow over alot of 6" lids... but don't voluntarily install 6" boxes.

[WalkGood]

Not when you put a 1" valve in a small rectangular box. I can't remember the last time I bought a 6" box. We mow over alot of 6" lids... but don't voluntarily install 6" boxes.


Ever have a valve box cover get sucked up by a mower? :dizzy:

[irritation]

... but don't voluntarily install 6" boxes.

They are not fun to find, even when you know where they are.:hammerhead:

[1idejim]

They are not fun to find, even when you know where they are.:hammerhead:

you're a pro, wup out your locator, it should not take a great amount of time to find the box unless the wire is compromised.

[zman9119]

you're a pro, wup out your locator, it should not take a great amount of time to find the box unless the wire is compromised.

Then you get to charge more since you had to break out the special tool.

[irritation]

I charge to "wup" out my wand. Sometimes when winterizing you use the valves and don't have access to the clock.

[American Irrig. Repair]

I charge to "wup" out my wand. Sometimes when winterizing you use the valves and don't have access to the clock.

Are you sure this type of discussion is allowed here? :laugh::laugh:

[1idejim]

I charge to "wup" out my wand. Sometimes when winterizing you use the valves and don't have access to the clock.

irritation,

if you have access to 1 valve box, you have access to all the valves through the common.

i missed the winterizing issues of valve boxes.

finding the valve and getting down the road is polly more important than the locate fee anyway

we are pros, when in doubt wup it out

[EagleLandscape]

W*M valve mechanicals are probably equal to anything you install in most residential systems. Solenoids are another story.

agreed. love the no leak bleed lever though.:)

[Mike Leary]

We have had zero problems with the W*M round solenoids that have the white wires. Like I said earlier, the guts on the 12000 ,11000
plastic and 8000 brass valves are the best for the price and we continue to use the product. I could see failure due to improper "tuning" of the flow controls and/or excessive pressures, but not in the manufacturing process.

[Wet_Boots]

I would rather the lever be in another position, because they sometimes are all but unreachable in a crowded valve box.

[Kiril]

I hate the damn lever. If it ain't broken it is inaccessible or you are reaching blind.

[Mike Leary]

I would rather the lever be in another position, because they sometimes are all but unreachable in a crowded valve box.

True, especially in a 6"! My guys screwed-up a big install years ago where I spec'd Netafim prvs; instead of a longer nipple, they used close nips, making it almost impossible to trip the bleeder. :hammerhead: