PDA

View Full Version : To compact or not to compact, that is the question


White Gardens
11-04-2009, 10:11 PM
So, I know it's a recommendation to compact your pavers after you've put in the poly sand.

A few other scapers I've talked to say that they could go either way on whether to compact or not.

My only concern is that I don't want my pavers too tight, as I remember the post about cracking paver sidewalks.

So, what are your guy's thoughts on this aspect of a paver install ?? What is your view point and why?

Thanks for all the help, the project is going smoothly.

shovelracer
11-04-2009, 10:39 PM
Yes on the compacting. If you dont work that sand down in there good it might just remain on the surface joint and work out much sooner. As far as the cracked pavers, IMO that isnt the norm as much as unique situations involving moisture contents and freezing. I've always compacted before and after on new installs and havent had any problems.

Bru75
11-05-2009, 12:47 AM
Yes, compact. It's not a question.

Stillwater
11-05-2009, 06:07 AM
So, I know it's a recommendation to compact your pavers after you've put in the poly sand.

A few other scapers I've talked to say that they could go either way on whether to compact or not.

My only concern is that I don't want my pavers too tight, as I remember the post about cracking paver sidewalks.

So, what are your guy's thoughts on this aspect of a paver install ?? What is your view point and why?

Thanks for all the help, the project is going smoothly.



Pavers yes...but with some stone work it depends on what it is...

Why? it locks the pavers to the bed and edging and stabilizes the sand bed. The sand bed is for drainage, when the pavers are compacted over it the sand stabilizes so it can drain without displacement remember it is just screeded not compacted, the last compacting also will reveal a low paver that would/could go unnoticed and cause a call back for a low paver.

If you are pargeing the walks with concrete instead of snap edging do not compact afterwords compact before.

If you are using snap edging compact afterwords. If the pavers are light in color use strips of cardboard to protect the pavers from compactor scuffs or have ample enough poly to protect the paver, also don't be one of the guys that rush to water the poly in take a little extra time ensuring that their is absolutely no loose poly where it is not supposed to be. Remember the last compacting is on very low idle

White Gardens
11-05-2009, 08:06 AM
Thanks for the replies.

I figured that compacting was the way to go, but wanted to get other opinions about the process.

I'm not sure why others wouldn't do it, but logic tells me to do it. Stillwater brought up the best point, and that is to compact in order to get my bedding sand to tighten up. The HO was curious about the sand and was trying to tell me to use a little as possible. (somewhere around an 1/8th of an inch). I tried to explain to him that even with the most properly laid base that it wasn't possible to use that minimal of an amount.

The plan is to use 1/2 to 3/4 inch conduit rails to screed off my sand. I figure that will give me a + or - 1/4 inch of bedding sand when installed.
Luckily I took the time to make my base as smooth as possible so I might actually be looking at + or - 1/8th of an inch for the sand.

Yesterday before I was done, I took my level and threw it around on random sections of my base and I really couldn't believe that I was able to lay the base as flat as I did without any major hills or valleys in the base.

DVS Hardscaper
11-05-2009, 03:52 PM
Pavers yes...but with some stone work it depends on what it is...

Why? it locks the pavers to the bed and edging and stabilizes the sand bed. The sand bed is for drainage, when the pavers are compacted over it the sand stabilizes so it can drain without displacement remember it is just screeded not compacted, the last compacting also will reveal a low paver that would/could go unnoticed and cause a call back for a low paver.

If you are pargeing the walks with concrete instead of snap edging do not compact afterwords compact before.

If you are using snap edging compact afterwords. If the pavers are light in color use strips of cardboard to protect the pavers from compactor scuffs or have ample enough poly to protect the paver, also don't be one of the guys that rush to water the poly in take a little extra time ensuring that their is absolutely no loose poly where it is not supposed to be. Remember the last compacting is on very low idle



With all due respect,

No, the *bedding sand* ABSOLUTELY IS NOT for "drainage". It has NOTHING to do with "drainage".

The 'bedding sand' is just that - it for *bedding* the pavers.

Any drainage is up to the competency / wisdom of the contractor. Achieved via sloping the pavement, routing water away, etc.


As far as compacting.....well, we've been a full time, full fledged paver installer for 13 years, now. No, we're not a yard cutting company that squeezes in a few pavers here and there. We have Hundreds of patios, walks, pool decks, driveways - under our belt. In the last 13 years, I'd guess that we have only ever compacted joint sand into place maybe 2, maybe 3 times. We build a superior product, and no problems. Ta each his own, we're an established, small company, I'm hands on, we have repeat clients, and to this day I have not seen anything that necissitates the need to do otherwise.

Most paver installers come and go, barely lasting 4-5 years. You can read alotta labels and take alotta ICPI courses, but 4-5 years isn't enough time for a contractor to acquire 1st hand knowledge and or wisdom :)



,

Steiner
11-05-2009, 05:56 PM
Try this next time you doubt compacting as a proven method:

1. walk on the freshly pavers and twist your feet as you walk, you should notice a slight movement in the pavers as they are flowing on top of the sand.

2. Compact following industry guidelines.

3. Walk on them again trying to move or scuff them. BIG DIFFERENCE! no movement, almost solid concrete feeling. I sometimes have homeowners do this test, and even they can notice it.

(notice I am talking about running a compactor over freshly laid pavers that have 1" of angular concrete sand below, and poly sand on top to settle in. I run the compactor over many times, sweeping and sanding. I protect the surface with an old dump truck flap which is wired to the bottom of the compactor.

If you are not compacting now, you should. Vibrations cause the sand to flow up like a fluid between the pavers to cause interlock. Each sand grain moves up the sides of the pavers thus increases the number of sand grains imposing a frictional force on each paver.

DVS Hardscaper
11-05-2009, 06:31 PM
Over the years I've seen some pretty interesting paver installs by others where all one can do is shake their head in disbelief.

We do not compact the joint sand, and yes - our pavers are as firmly in place as possible. Could be a result from compacting the pavers in cross directions?

Like I said, ta each his own. Seriously though, we're not talking a special science. Cobblestone roads have been around long before the invention of the automobile, and now suddenly there's amazing ways to perfect the art of the 2nd or 3rd oldest profession! We're talking bone dry sand being dumped between dry pavers......

asalow
11-06-2009, 01:07 AM
we do it some. it does make the sand fall in the cracks better. to say it is a neccesity, not sure. i have done it both ways, both work. the only reason i like doing it is because of those seemingly never ending holes that seem like they take forever to fill or the gaps that look like they are full but as you walk around the sand falls in. compacting cures these. was at a conference where a "professional" was brought in to show us how to do it. yay! he built a small patio while we watched. he ran the packer over the patio with out a skid plate or anything, it was leaving scrapes and broke a few bricks. he improved it and took that as a chance to show us how to replace bricks if that happens. some of our product we use is like a 1 7/8" i never touch that with a packer, to delicate.
try it both ways, do what you are comfortable with and works for you

Stillwater
11-06-2009, 05:51 AM
With all due respect,

No, the *bedding sand* ABSOLUTELY IS NOT for "drainage". It has NOTHING to do with "drainage".

The 'bedding sand' is just that - it for *bedding* the pavers.

Any drainage is up to the competency / wisdom of the contractor. Achieved via sloping the pavement, routing water away, etc.


As far as compacting.....well, we've been a full time, full fledged paver installer for 13 years, now. No, we're not a yard cutting company that squeezes in a few pavers here and there. We have Hundreds of patios, walks, pool decks, driveways - under our belt. In the last 13 years, I'd guess that we have only ever compacted joint sand into place maybe 2, maybe 3 times. We build a superior product, and no problems. Ta each his own, we're an established, small company, I'm hands on, we have repeat clients, and to this day I have not seen anything that necissitates the need to do otherwise.

Most paver installers come and go, barely lasting 4-5 years. You can read alotta labels and take alotta ICPI courses, but 4-5 years isn't enough time for a contractor to acquire 1st hand knowledge and or wisdom :),



Normally I would ignore a post like this and not dignify it with a response. But your tone is egotistical. Apparently 13 years is not long enough for you to know and understand the entire function of a paver bed system. now since you are tossing out numbers and you have no idea who I am, I have been in business since 1978 creating extreme landscapes that is most likely is longer than you have been alive so unless you have a time machine you might not want to compare your projects or number of completed projects with mine I have no clue why you would be quoting 4-5 years. It is starkly obvious your post has more to do with benefiting your ego than to contribute to a quality discussion on paver installation. knowing that Paver joints are not entirely water tight I would like to ask you what happens to that water- yes limited as it may be that does migrate through the joints where does it go? but your statement on bed sand having no roll in drainage what so ever disqualifies you from further discourse so please going forward just ignore my posts. Some take this more seriously than others.

Rex Mann
11-06-2009, 08:42 PM
Bedding sand is spec'd as ASTM C33, which has 0-1% passing the #200 sieve, AKA fines. This bedding sand requirement is to allow drainage of any moisture. If the sand holds moisture it could liquefy and pump out in a driveway application.

We always compact before jointing sand, then again after jointing sand. This allows for maximum interlock, by filling all the voids in the joints. If you are not compacting after the jointing sand you are not producing the most durable finished product possible.

Peace,

Rex

http://PaversInstalled.Com

White Gardens
11-06-2009, 11:19 PM
we do it some. it does make the sand fall in the cracks better. to say it is a neccesity, not sure. i have done it both ways, both work. the only reason i like doing it is because of those seemingly never ending holes that seem like they take forever to fill or the gaps that look like they are full but as you walk around the sand falls in. compacting cures these.

Good post. Kinda confirms what I've been thinking.

When I worked for a company previous to mine, we didn't compact the poly sand in the joints. About a year ago I went back to one of the sites (previous company is no longer around) and there were voids in some of the gaps of the pavers.

I helped install the poly and we took our time, and made sure to fill all the gaps. Obviously that wasn't enough in this situation and the poly settle over a couple of years. Sure, all it needed was another round of poly, but I wouldn't think you should ever have to do that unless you have some massive water intrusion between the "layers" of a paver patio or sidewalk.

With the project I'm working on, my goal is to make some of my work part of the history of the property. So on that note, I think I'm going to compact after I lay the pavers, then add poly and compact again. I feel this will give me the best results. I've already talked to a local gas station and they are saving some of their bigger boxes for me to help protect the pavers when I compact. I might also check out an appliance store and see if they have any refrigerator boxes too.

Thanks for the replies and helping me come to a good conclusion. Thumbs Up.

Stillwater
11-07-2009, 12:28 AM
Gardens you can also use an old carpet runner

White Gardens
11-07-2009, 08:29 AM
Gardens you can also use an old carpet runner

That's a good idea Stillwater. I might actually have a couple laying around.

Bru75
11-07-2009, 10:07 AM
If you're serious about this business, why not just buy a pad for your compactor? They're only a couple hundred bucks, last a long time, are easy to maneuver, and you don't have to show up at your clients house with a truckload of cardboard and crappy old carpet.
Pavetech sells one that can be cut to size for your compactor. I've used it for a few years now on all kinds of pavers, even textured and clay brick, and it works great.

White Gardens
11-07-2009, 11:27 AM
If you're serious about this business, why not just buy a pad for your compactor? They're only a couple hundred bucks, last a long time, are easy to maneuver, and you don't have to show up at your clients house with a truckload of cardboard and crappy old carpet.
Pavetech sells one that can be cut to size for your compactor. I've used it for a few years now on all kinds of pavers, even textured and clay brick, and it works great.

I've been looking into that actually. My only concern is money right now. Even though I can see myself doing more paver projects in the future, I don't actually foresee any in the near future so I can't justify the expense. The wife isn't working, going back to school, and just found out she needs carpel tunnel surgery. I need all the money I can get to go into winter comfortably. Another thing also is my business has been primarily maintenance, design, and installs with small amounts of hardscaping mixed in. The main reason I'm doing this project now is to not only expand the realms of my business, but this customer is also my biggest maintenance client. The last thing I wanted to do was leave this project hanging out there and letting someone else do it.

I'm going to call a couple of other rental houses and see if they have a pad for the compactor that I can just rent right now. As soon as I get some more bigger paver projects then I'm going to buy a compactor and pad.

Definitively a great thought, and is something I have been considering.

csl
11-07-2009, 01:16 PM
we have been using that new mini compactor that "bella" sells. it is a much smaller plate, and the compaction is much less than that of our diesel units. my supplier said that they originally made them for people who do sewer installs because they had such small areas to manuever around. it works great for final compaction, and in the 2200 square foot patio and 1000 square foot drive way we just installed it only broke 4 pavers. 4 pavers out of the 1000's installed. i say that is a good success rate. i always compact, never been called back in over 4.5 years to redo a paver job. :usflag:

AztlanLC
11-07-2009, 03:46 PM
Find an old conveyor belt and build your own pad I did mine with maybe $5 worth of supplies and half hour of my time I really think neoprane pads are way overpriced.

seascapes
11-07-2009, 06:41 PM
We tamp them every time and never have problems. We do tons of concrete paver pool decks every year and never have any problems. This is how I was taught to lay pavers about 14 years ago and have done so ever since. The only time we have call backs is when they want to add onto the deck later or the damn pool company has leaks in their plumbing.

seascapes
11-07-2009, 06:46 PM
Oh yeah, we don't use any type of pad either. We put a little extra sand on there and work it in. If we get a break in a paver its usually because that unit should not have been used anyway. Sometimes my labor gets a little excited when they see the end of the day coming. I don't get on them to much for it (after 10 hours of florida august heat I let it slide).

AztlanLC
11-07-2009, 11:32 PM
the pad is not really to avoid braking the pavers but scuffing

DVS Hardscaper
11-08-2009, 05:23 PM
it's my opinion that pavers breake for the following reasons:

a) crappy manufacturing
b) installed too tightly. installed too tightly can occur as a result from mitering the pavers too big, and pounding them into place with a mallot.



,

csl
11-08-2009, 07:59 PM
the only pavers we had break were the tumbled style. and like i said, we had 4 break out of several thousand feet. none were mitre cuts. but thats just me.

Rex Mann
11-08-2009, 11:48 PM
The larger footprint a paver has the more likely it can crack during compacting due to flexing. Remember, anything over 101 square inches is not technically a paver. Also, the aspect ratio needs to be 4 or less.That is why most large format pavers are at least 80 MM, which lowers the aspect ratio.

Peace,

Rex

http://Paversinstalled.com

Stillwater
11-09-2009, 12:04 AM
If anyone is confused by Rex Mann's thoughtful post, paver Aspect Ratio is determined by dividing the length of the paver by it's thickness.

White Gardens
11-09-2009, 08:33 AM
So, I've got one more question on the compaction.

So far my pavers are going in nicely. I'm waiting to get half the run done (approx. 120 feet) to go get the compactor to finish off the first half. I'm trying to utilize rental time.

So, If my pavers are laid, but not locked, will it be O.K. if they were to get rained on a little bit, or am I asking for problems when I go to fill the joints.

I would like to get the pavers laid completely in the next couple of days before I fill and compact, but it looks like we've got rain creeping in the forecast again.:hammerhead:. (I just can't win this year weather wise)

Thanks for the help. Thumbs Up

wurkn with amish
11-09-2009, 06:00 PM
should be fine. YOu might haveto tweak a few...

Dirt Boy
11-09-2009, 10:36 PM
Pads? Don't know what I'm talking about, but that ain't gonna stop me any!!

How about an old truck mud flap, go by some local gravel company and they'll have em layin around for nothin.
Also, farm supply stores sell these heavy mats, like 1/2" or so thick for stall mats. Perhaps $40, and you could get a bunch of them out of one. Maybe sell the others:laugh:

Good Luck

StevePave
11-12-2009, 04:08 PM
Interesting discussion. It really is simple stuff. Compact before spreading any joint sand to level the pavers and compact alot after the sanding of the joints to get the joint full and tight. This is the only way to get the dynamic load into the pavement for reasons of performance. A properly performing segmental pavement has a measureable energy in the pattern. Patios, walkways and most driveways would probably never matter but try a street some time. But that would probably is not a nice thing to wish on a residential contractor.

csl
11-12-2009, 08:49 PM
and E=mc2 thanks professor:laugh:

fall46
11-12-2009, 09:09 PM
While were on this topic, when laying the sand + pavers and they but up against concrete or some other pre-established fixed grade how much compaction can one expect if you plan on tamping the pavers into the sand base. If the pavers sit proud say .25-.375 before they are tamped can you expect that much compaction post tamping so that you end up flush with a fixed surface?

Or put another way how much compaction can you expect saying using a 1'' of sand vs .50'' vs .25''

StevePave
11-12-2009, 09:39 PM
it's my opinion that pavers breake for the following reasons:

a) crappy manufacturing
b) installed too tightly. installed too tightly can occur as a result from mitering the pavers too big, and pounding them into place with a mallot.



,
Posted via Mobile Device

soopa
11-13-2009, 12:21 AM
If you have a 1" setting bed you can expect them to compact 5/8" - 3/4". I usually error on the high side at 3/4", worst case I spend more time compacting at the perimeter. It's better than the alternative of ripping up pavers, adding sand, and likely creating puddles.

fall46
11-13-2009, 04:57 PM
Interesting for 1'' of sand there is that much compaction. I was thinking more on the order of .25 to .375

StevePave
11-13-2009, 07:59 PM
I varies only a little bit but sands loose screeded will compact about 25% of thickness. Remember that this is because some of the sand is driven up into the paver joints. This varies a bit on width of joints and size of pavers(lineal inches of joint per sq ft). Your experience with your own sand and pavers will get you exact but even then it will change somewhat in freeze thaw areas. Even with 1-2 ft of base you can get a freeze lift of up to an inch. Ahh the variables.

Hardscaping
11-15-2009, 01:56 AM
Interesting for 1'' of sand there is that much compaction. I was thinking more on the order of .25 to .375

I think soopa meant that one inch will compact down to 3/4". meaning there would be a 25% rate of compaction and joint filling with the sand. I always go about 1/4" to 3/8" higher then finished grade so when i compact the sit flush.

White Gardens
11-15-2009, 09:29 AM
While were on this topic, when laying the sand + pavers and they but up against concrete or some other pre-established fixed grade how much compaction can one expect if you plan on tamping the pavers into the sand base. If the pavers sit proud say .25-.375 before they are tamped can you expect that much compaction post tamping so that you end up flush with a fixed surface?

Or put another way how much compaction can you expect saying using a 1'' of sand vs .50'' vs .25''

On the job I just finished, I had one area that was critical and I didn't want the pavers to settle.

It was just in front of a set of steps, and the first run of pavers were under the lip of the steps. So what I did was screet off my sand and then slightly raised my pavers. At that point I used a rubber mallet to go ahead and pound them into place. If they dropped too much then I removed, added a little sand, and re-placed them.

When I compacted, I then stayed 6 inches or so from those pavers in order not to settle them anymore.

kootoomootoo
11-15-2009, 02:45 PM
With all due respect,

No, the *bedding sand* ABSOLUTELY IS NOT for "drainage". It has NOTHING to do with "drainage".

The 'bedding sand' is just that - it for *bedding* the pavers.

Any drainage is up to the competency / wisdom of the contractor. Achieved via sloping the pavement, routing water away, etc.


As far as compacting.....well, we've been a full time, full fledged paver installer for 13 years, now. No, we're not a yard cutting company that squeezes in a few pavers here and there. We have Hundreds of patios, walks, pool decks, driveways - under our belt. In the last 13 years, I'd guess that we have only ever compacted joint sand into place maybe 2, maybe 3 times. We build a superior product, and no problems. Ta each his own, we're an established, small company, I'm hands on, we have repeat clients, and to this day I have not seen anything that necissitates the need to do otherwise.

Most paver installers come and go, barely lasting 4-5 years. You can read alotta labels and take alotta ICPI courses, but 4-5 years isn't enough time for a contractor to acquire 1st hand knowledge and or wisdom :)



,









Normally I would ignore a post like this and not dignify it with a response. But your tone is egotistical. Apparently 13 years is not long enough for you to know and understand the entire function of a paver bed system. now since you are tossing out numbers and you have no idea who I am, I have been in business since 1978 creating extreme landscapes that is most likely is longer than you have been alive so unless you have a time machine you might not want to compare your projects or number of completed projects with mine I have no clue why you would be quoting 4-5 years. It is starkly obvious your post has more to do with benefiting your ego than to contribute to a quality discussion on paver installation. knowing that Paver joints are not entirely water tight I would like to ask you what happens to that water- yes limited as it may be that does migrate through the joints where does it go? but your statement on bed sand having no roll in drainage what so ever disqualifies you from further discourse so please going forward just ignore my posts. Some take this more seriously than others.




ok I am new at this...........who is right.

Stillwater
11-15-2009, 03:41 PM
ok I am new at this...........who is right.



I am, bedding sand has several functions but one of the primary purposes of bedding sand is for drainage of surface moisture that migrates through the joints.

Dreams To Designs
11-16-2009, 10:11 AM
WG, get rid of that rubber mallet and get at least a Harbor freight deadblow hammer or a Pavetech or equivalent. Your elbow, arm and installation will thank you.

Kirk

StevePave
11-16-2009, 10:58 AM
The coarse sand that should be used for bedding will allow lateral movement of moisture so that any any moisture entering the upper layers (mostly around the perimeter) would follow the slope created for the pavement surface by the base grade. I have had projects with unique water issues that on the lowest areas of the project, free water from maybe 100+ ft away would kind of "fountain" as the pavement leveled off. I had to thank the landscaper and the gutter guys for their combined effort to pooch that up. Amount of moisture entering joints after a couple of months is insignificant or non-existant. Your base material should be denser than any surrounding soils, I hope? Wish I had a photo of that "fountain".

White Gardens
11-16-2009, 11:32 AM
WG, get rid of that rubber mallet and get at least a Harbor freight deadblow hammer or a Pavetech or equivalent. Your elbow, arm and installation will thank you.

Kirk

Ya, I actually looked at more of a dead blow hammer at El Cheapo home store. It was actually two different heads on one hammer. One being more of a roller skate wheel type of material and the other side was more of a pliable rubber that was still harder than a standard rubber mallot.

I've also seen a wood floor stapler hammer that has a rubber tipped hammer with a metal cap on it that I would like to try. (that's a mouthful:hammerhead:)

I'll have to check the one out the Harbor Freight in Peoria. I need to go there to check out an engine stand, and some other random tools anyway.

Thanks for the tip.

soopa
11-16-2009, 03:38 PM
On the job I just finished, I had one area that was critical and I didn't want the pavers to settle.

It was just in front of a set of steps, and the first run of pavers were under the lip of the steps. So what I did was screet off my sand and then slightly raised my pavers. At that point I used a rubber mallet to go ahead and pound them into place. If they dropped too much then I removed, added a little sand, and re-placed them.

When I compacted, I then stayed 6 inches or so from those pavers in order not to settle them anymore.

Soooo... you avoided multiple passes along the perimeter and thus didn't completely compact your pavers into your bedding sand? Don't you think the perimeter will settle eventually...?

I think soopa meant that one inch will compact down to 3/4". meaning there would be a 25% rate of compaction and joint filling with the sand. I always go about 1/4" to 3/8" higher then finished grade so when i compact the sit flush.

No. Pavers, as per ICPI, numerous manufacturer specs (check your Unilock or Techo-bloc tech guides), and plenty of experience building landings & raised patios where this becomes crucial, will compact 5/8 - 3/4" into a 1" ASTM C-33 bedding layer when fully and properly compacted. This has the effect of filling 25-30% or 1/4-1/3 of your paver joints.

If you're only getting 1/4" of compaction out of your pavers you're setting yourself up for settlement and at the very least polymeric sand issues. You shouldn't have a 2 1/8" deep polymeric sand joint.

It typically takes 3 passes over any given spot using a Perimeter-Lateral-Perimeter compaction method, overlapping passes by 1/3 with a 1450 or equivalent ~3,000 lb/force class compactor, to achieve full compaction of pavers. If you don't use a pad on your plate you'll know when you're fully compacted because you'll feel the compactor begin to "glide" or "crab" sideways across the pavement surface.

Rex Mann
11-16-2009, 05:15 PM
I have never seen my pavers compact 3/4 -inch into the sand. We do multiple passes with a 5000 pound vibratory plate compactor, ICPI guideline. The only way I can see getting 3/4-inch compaction is by using much more than 1-inch of sand. Or, by using an open graded aggregate for your base. And, during compaction the sand migrates sown into the voids. 1-inch of sand has a known compaction factor of 25%. I have always used a concrete sand that is pretty coarse. Maybe a finer concrete sand has a greater compaction factor....If it does. I would bet it would not be 3 times that as coarse sand. But, maybe the combination of finer sand and open graded aggregate...just thinking out loud.

Peace,

Rex

http://PaversInstalled.Com

StevePave
11-16-2009, 05:21 PM
I have never seen my pavers compact 3/4 -inch into the sand. We do multiple passes with a 5000 pound vibratory plate compactor, ICPI guideline. The only way I can see getting 3/4-inch compaction is by using much more than 1-inch of sand. Or, by using an open graded aggregate for your base. And, during compaction the sand migrates sown into the voids. 1-inch of sand has a known compaction factor of 25%. I have always used a concrete sand that is pretty coarse. Maybe a finer concrete sand has a greater compaction factor....If it does. I would bet it would not be 3 times that as coarse sand. But, maybe the combination of finer sand and open graded aggregate...just thinking out loud.

Peace,

Rex

http://PaversInstalled.Com
1/4 inch is about all you'll get anywhere unless the base along the perimeter is soft. Fineness of the sand does not really change the void ratio between particles much over 5%. More important than that is the radius of the concrete edge you are coming up to. If you get flush top to flush top it usually looks bad and catches dirt on the up slope side.

White Gardens
11-16-2009, 06:41 PM
Soooo... you avoided multiple passes along the perimeter and thus didn't completely compact your pavers into your bedding sand? Don't you think the perimeter will settle eventually...?


I had maybe a 6inch x 4foot area that didn't get compacted with the compactor. Those bricks were actually installed individually with a mallet, remove, re screeted, beat with a mallet, removed.............. about 5 times until I felt the bedding sand was locking my pavers into place.

I stand behind my work. This area amounted to .22950 percent of the project that a plate compactor didn't touch.

If I have to post pics to clarify, I will.

Bru75
11-16-2009, 08:31 PM
I have never seen my pavers compact 3/4 -inch into the sand. We do multiple passes with a 5000 pound vibratory plate compactor, ICPI guideline. The only way I can see getting 3/4-inch compaction is by using much more than 1-inch of sand. Or, by using an open graded aggregate for your base. And, during compaction the sand migrates sown into the voids. 1-inch of sand has a known compaction factor of 25%. I have always used a concrete sand that is pretty coarse. Maybe a finer concrete sand has a greater compaction factor....If it does. I would bet it would not be 3 times that as coarse sand. But, maybe the combination of finer sand and open graded aggregate...just thinking out loud.

Peace,

Rex

http://PaversInstalled.Com

Same here. About 1/4" compaction in 1" of sand after three passes with a 5,500# compactor.

DVS Hardscaper
11-16-2009, 09:31 PM
our pavers typically compact 1/2-inch into the bedding sand. None of this soft stuff, or mushy stuff, either.

soopa
11-16-2009, 10:02 PM
I have never seen my pavers compact 3/4 -inch into the sand. We do multiple passes with a 5000 pound vibratory plate compactor, ICPI guideline. The only way I can see getting 3/4-inch compaction is by using much more than 1-inch of sand. Or, by using an open graded aggregate for your base. And, during compaction the sand migrates sown into the voids. 1-inch of sand has a known compaction factor of 25%. I have always used a concrete sand that is pretty coarse. Maybe a finer concrete sand has a greater compaction factor....If it does. I would bet it would not be 3 times that as coarse sand. But, maybe the combination of finer sand and open graded aggregate...just thinking out loud.

:rolleyes: ok...

first heres one of my past posts depicting my base prep method:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php?p=2967601&postcount=2

here's some pics from a recent project showing more detail. difference between new pics and old pics is the top lift of base in these new pics is only 1" (only had 1" rails on site), and there is fabric in-between the base and the sand:

the base after final screed, awaiting final compaction:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2583/4110311911_dce2874bd3.jpg

pavers set 5/8-3/4" high:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2694/4111082064_26b6d96bcb.jpg

post compaction results...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2692/4052884367_2b3d379d0c.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2508/4110372553_e58a2660ec.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3504/4034197657_905130b902.jpg

as you can see, no lippage anywhere. plenty of opportunities for it.

these pics and the pics from my prior post should quelch the suggestions of open-graded base or sand-migration. especially on the latter project in which the bedding layer was wrapped in fabric.

as for this "known compaction factor of 25%" comes from because if I google "sand compaction factor" or "concrete sand compaction ratio" or something of the like the only real result is this thread. even with a a "known" compaction factor of 25% it is nill as you are displacing the sand by moving it into the joints. scientific compaction factors are based on confined samples. in other words, the sand need NOT be "compacted "75%" to achieve a 5/8"-3/4" elevation change in your paver.

anyway... for those looking for advice... follow whomevers you should so choose. all i know is it's a hell of alot easier to work downhill then it is to work up. the last thing i want to do after compacting my pavers is to rip up the perimeter to add sand because they ended up low. start high and compact your way down. worst case you spend a little bit more time with the compactor working the bedding sand into your joints. :hammerhead:

Dirt Boy
11-16-2009, 10:41 PM
Looks NICE!

Although we probably don't see everything, how much was something like this worth $$$$?

Stillwater
11-16-2009, 11:37 PM
looks nice!

Although we probably don't see everything, how much was something like this worth $$$$?



50,000 / 70,000

White Gardens
11-16-2009, 11:44 PM
50,000 / 70,000

That was my initial guess.

soopa
11-17-2009, 09:41 PM
Looks NICE!

Although we probably don't see everything, how much was something like this worth $$$$?

thanks. stillwater pretty much guessed it