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View Full Version : JDL fert prices dropped big time


americanlawn
11-16-2009, 07:10 PM
I was pleasantly surprised last week when I received a quote from JDL.

Less than $15 per bag for 14 -x - x w/.43+% Stonewall. It's also a pcscu fert formulation that we like (quite similar to XCU).

We're waiting a few weeks for other quotes to come in, but I was shocked at the low price that JDL offered.

Anybody else see JDL starting to compete with others? rscvp, thanks.

CHARLES CUE
11-16-2009, 07:23 PM
They sent me a nice little book with all there equipment, fertlizers and pestaicides in it and a 250.00 off coupon off my next equipment purchase but no prices i would be scared to ask
Charles Cue

americanlawn
11-16-2009, 07:38 PM
I never got that -- just a fax with about 8 different choices for 2010 round one (pre w/fert) pricing. (truckload pricing). We'll wait & see what CPS & Zimco has to offer.

BTW I appreciated your help regarding pcscu.....We got a fine product & saved money. Thanks

rcreech
11-16-2009, 10:13 PM
Larry,

I have always had awesome luck with Lesco. They usually always beat everyone's prices.

Glad you are getting more competitive prices. How many ton of Pre do you use (PM me if you don't want to share).

I would think you would get the max discount for sure with the size of your business.

I got my Pre about 60 days ago and we got a 13-0-0 with 30%PPSCU and the prices I got this year were cheaper then I have ever paid!

jbturf
11-16-2009, 10:20 PM
im gonna start getting some pricing tom--
has jdl mentioned any offers or early order, terms etc?

grassman177
11-16-2009, 11:58 PM
i can only hope we see better pricing for 2010. i have not checked yet but will do so in december and place my pre order. i did get better prices this year than in 2008, so that was good.

Marcos
11-17-2009, 02:42 AM
I was pleasantly surprised last week when I received a quote from JDL.

Less than $15 per bag for 14 -x - x w/.43+% Stonewall. It's also a pcscu fert formulation that we like (quite similar to XCU).

We're waiting a few weeks for other quotes to come in, but I was shocked at the low price that JDL offered.

Anybody else see JDL starting to compete with others? rscvp, thanks.

Good luck to you if your area gets ravaged with drought & you need to renovate a lot of turf late next summer after applying .43% prodiamine in the spring. :waving:

That stuff has too much of an A.I. half-life in the soil profile for it's own good. Barricade should have never been pushed into the turf arena because of this very reason.
And unfortunately, many, many few fall renovation failures are never linked back to the spring round of prodiamine, or... naive contractor(s) didn't know enough about the chemistry to know any better, anyway! :cry:

grassman177
11-17-2009, 03:35 AM
i have expereinced renovation failure a few times due to this fact, that is why we use a lesser app rate of barricade. i cant remember now, but much less than .43%!

i think i will be using this one more year or so and switching it up again to dimension or maybe some new chemistry yet to be released or just new on the market period.

MnLefty
11-17-2009, 09:41 AM
Come on Marcos and Grassman, you guys both know it's pounds of AI on the ground, not in the bag, that makes the difference.

14-x-x .43 barricade applied at 150 lbs/A would be basically .5lb N/k and .65lbs prodiamine per Acre. That's not an obnoxious rate of barricade for the upper midwest. Now if you go up to 200lbs/A or more and get to Barricade rates of.86lbs/A and higher... then I agree there's going to be residual enough to matter.

The other thing about the extended residual of Barricade is that it allows guys up here to go out earlier without as much fear of their pre-emerge "running out" before crabgrass season ends. When you've got 6 weeks of pre-emerge to put out, not everybody is going to get perfect timing with their app. Barricade on the early ones can help extend residual and avoid having to do split apps.

tlg
11-17-2009, 11:14 AM
I just got 2010 pricing from JDL. About a 10% decrease across the board on fert. Not a huge amount but I'll take what a I can get. I was really thinking we would see a more significant drop in fert overall considering all factors. Then, as with everything, once prices go up it's not real likely that we will ever see a return to what they were a few years ago. If there is a better deal out there I have not seen it.

Marcos
11-17-2009, 12:06 PM
Come on Marcos and Grassman, you guys both know it's pounds of AI on the ground, not in the bag, that makes the difference.

14-x-x .43 barricade applied at 150 lbs/A would be basically .5lb N/k and .65lbs prodiamine per Acre. That's not an obnoxious rate of barricade for the upper midwest. Now if you go up to 200lbs/A or more and get to Barricade rates of.86lbs/A and higher... then I agree there's going to be residual enough to matter.

The other thing about the extended residual of Barricade is that it allows guys up here to go out earlier without as much fear of their pre-emerge "running out" before crabgrass season ends. When you've got 6 weeks of pre-emerge to put out, not everybody is going to get perfect timing with their app. Barricade on the early ones can help extend residual and avoid having to do split apps.

Oh, c'mon. I've been around all aspects of this biz since '83.
I've never used prodiamine in turf & never will. Only in landscape a few years.
I'm bridge organic & have been since '98 & use Dimension in only a handful of accounts anymore, & JUST use it along hard perimeter edges when we do.
The 'pre-emergent' we like to implement (besides corn gluten meal or Dimension along hard edges) is the sheer aggressiveness of a dense & healthy stand of turf to choke to crowd out weeds B4 they even get started.

What I'm talking about is walking blind into a new situation where renovation work is bid by us for turf that was managed earlier in the year by another LCO.
In those situations, the current year's spray records need to be dug up from the homeowner so that we know exactly what we're getting in to in the knowledge if potentially there's any prodiamine residual in & around the zone of germination.

And you know of course that although 98.5% or so of lawn care business owners understand the 'A.I. on the ground' explanation you posted, a lot of their employees do not, and thus might be tempted to 'go heavy' or 'go light' for various convoluted &/or self-inflicted reasons!
There's all sorts of reasons why a spring app of Barricade / Stonewall might screw up a fall seed job, all of them BAD! :laugh:

MnLefty
11-17-2009, 01:47 PM
Oh, c'mon. I've been around all aspects of this biz since '83.
I've never used prodiamine in turf & never will. Only in landscape a few years.
I'm bridge organic & have been since '98 & use Dimension in only a handful of accounts anymore, & JUST use it along hard perimeter edges when we do.
The 'pre-emergent' we like to implement (besides corn gluten meal or Dimension along hard edges) is the sheer aggressiveness of a dense & healthy stand of turf to choke to crowd out weeds B4 they even get started.

I applaud your program, and I know it has been very successful for you, but we both know that until forced to by govt regulations, most LCO's are going to continue with the traditional "step" programs, including blanket pre-emergements.

What I'm talking about is walking blind into a new situation where renovation work is bid by us for turf that was managed earlier in the year by another LCO.
In those situations, the current year's spray records need to be dug up from the homeowner so that we know exactly what we're getting in to in the knowledge if potentially there's any prodiamine residual in & around the zone of germination.

I agree completely, that's a tough spot for you or any other LCO to be in, but we obviously don't expect the other guy to run his business taking that into consideration. I'm just saying for the traditional LCO, Barricade does have its place (at appropriate rates) where the positives of performance may outweigh the potential risks in case you need to reseed.

And you know of course that although 98.5% or so of lawn care business owners understand the 'A.I. on the ground' explanation you posted, a lot of their employees do not, and thus might be tempted to 'go heavy' or 'go light' for various convoluted &/or self-inflicted reasons!
There's all sorts of reasons why a spring app of Barricade / Stonewall might screw up a fall seed job, all of them BAD! :laugh:

Actually, if you were to hang around the Lesco JDL stores for the entire day and eavesdrop on the conversations, you would substantially lower that 98.5% figure. I didn't know which smiley to put in there, because it is funny, scary, and downright disturbing all together. I've spent time behind the counter at the old Lesco, and the lack of basic knowledge like rate calculations, equipment calibration, cost per lb/N etc... was alarming. (from very large successful companies also, not just the little guy)

responses in blue, not trying to argue, just clarify.

grassman177
11-17-2009, 05:26 PM
i fully understand the AI on the ground, i was just commenting on how the higher rates can affect seed germination in the fall. you could put that .43 stonewall down at a lighter app rate and be the same as what i put down with my 4 lb app rate of a lesser percentage of AI in the bag. sure, i am just making observations that is all.

grassman177
11-17-2009, 05:28 PM
i made the mistake one year first time using barricade and put it down too heavy on a few yards before toning down the rate and had trouble with fall seeding, i have since then been more cautious and had no problems. there is a very wide range of Ai that is acceptable to use and it depends on the location, weather and weed pressure you have. really, that makes barricade a very verstile and quite potent pre em!!

americanlawn
11-17-2009, 06:29 PM
Not sure what we'll order, but an advantage of .43 Stonewall could be only having to apply 3 lbs per K instead of 4 or 4 1/2 lbs. This could reduce operator fatigue regarding push spreaders and reduce the amount of bags ride-on units have to haul.

This year:
Most small lawns received 2 apps of .10 Dimension. Fine results but pricey.
Most ride-on accounts received just one app of Barricade. Nice results, and we saved money.

JDL was the first to quote us (very competitive) prices. I like my local LESCO guys (fine friends) who have had to deal with the JDL issues, and now it seems like they have pricing to be competitive.

i fully understand the AI on the ground, i was just commenting on how the higher rates can affect seed germination in the fall. you could put that .43 stonewall down at a lighter app rate and be the same as what i put down with my 4 lb app rate of a lesser percentage of AI in the bag. sure, i am just making observations that is all.

DA Quality Lawn & YS
11-17-2009, 07:46 PM
Larry - what would be the cost to go with a rd 1 product with a higher % of Dimension in it? Is there like a .25 product you could check out?

rcreech
11-17-2009, 07:50 PM
Larry - what would be the cost to go with a rd 1 product with a higher % of Dimension in it? Is there like a .25 product you could check out?

Not to answer to Larry...but when I got my pricing, it cost MORE/AI to go with a higher AI% Dimension.

I have always used a .10, so I wanted to look at going to the .15 so we could handle less bags but I couldn't afford to even think about it.

I would have thought the higher the AI the cheaper/k...but that wasn't the case here in Littletown USA!

grassman177
11-17-2009, 07:56 PM
i have used the .2 dimension on dry fert and have had pretty good results as long as itis not too early of a rd 1. if so and we have a dry summer here, it tends to break down quicker and loose control in some lesser desireable lawns for sure. Just my answer to your ?, not to take away form Larry!

i have used a starter fert in rd 1 and then a stronger N fet with .2 dimension about 2-4 weeks later with a blanket of broadleaf in rd2. this gets nice results and i will more than likely start that program up in a year or two, changing up mode of action and family of control products. i may consider even trying a different meathod to grub control other than Merit at that time as well. not sure

grassman177
11-17-2009, 08:02 PM
i have not gotten actual numbers but i talked with my rep today and he confirmed most prices will go down next year for at least fert and combo products. this is great news, more money to make.

but lets see about 2011. if gas prices continue to rise as selfishly as they have then the prices with climb righyt back up and then some. that worries me as i will be forced to raise prices again, which we do cautiously and always have. i would never say we are cheap as many times we are at least average or more depending on who i am bidding against.

we have always tried to bring the most value to our csutomers , great quality and not the most expensive( all the time)

jbturf
11-17-2009, 08:05 PM
JDL-early order
1. buy now take by dec 31- discount 200/ 5k spent
2. buy now take by mar31- 120 day terms
3.buy now take by apr something 30 day terms

think thats pretty much it, dont have it in writting yet- just verbal

i havent gotten prices yet, but ive been using .15 dimen for a # of yrs now,
with much better control than .10 dim, and the pricing has always been favorable for
me comparing ai/npk

any one use the nutriets plus with dimension B4?
im curoius how clean/ messy it is, and spreadability?

rcreech
11-17-2009, 08:07 PM
i have not gotten actual numbers but i talked with my rep today and he confirmed most prices will go down next year for at least fert and combo products. this is great news, more money to make.

but lets see about 2011. if gas prices continue to rise as selfishly as they have then the prices with climb righyt back up and then some. that worries me as i will be forced to raise prices again, which we do cautiously and always have. i would never say we are cheap as many times we are at least average or more depending on who i am bidding against.

we have always tried to bring the most value to our csutomers , great quality and not the most expensive( all the time)

That is the first I have heard that!

N has already went up here a couple % just since Sept.

Both the ag and turf side here are predicting a steady increase after 1st of the year.

A lot will depend on the severity of the winter, supply and demand, and CHINA and INDIA is starting to throw money around again. If that is the case it may get ugly again for P and K expecially!

As always...nobody really knows, but something to keep an eye on!

Don't get caught with your pants down...or you WILL have to raise prices.

My theory is lock in low and don't look back! :)

turf hokie
11-17-2009, 09:23 PM
any one use the nutriets plus with dimension B4?
im curoius how clean/ messy it is, and spreadability?

Yes, with the .15, spreads just fine and no messier than anything else out there.

grassman177
11-17-2009, 09:28 PM
i will be, locking in when i meet up with him in december. couldnt agree more rod

Grandview
11-18-2009, 07:46 AM
if gas prices continue to rise as selfishly as they have then the prices with climb righyt back up and then some.


There is nothing selfish about gas prices. It is all about supply and demand. Would have thought we all learned that a year ago. For example if one gas station in town decided to drop its price by a nickel it would quickly run out if other station did not do the same. They would not be able to keep up with the demand. If Mobil dropped its oil price lower than the current market it could not keep up with the demand either. Drop your lawn prices to the lowest and you will find the same. If oil companies could still be getting 130.00/barrel, they would. Current demand does not allow it.

grassman177
11-18-2009, 12:48 PM
i can get what you are saying, but is still a bunch of crap. they rise and fall daily here, that is a bit much wouldnt you say?

Marcos
11-18-2009, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Marcos
The 'pre-emergent' we like to implement (besides corn gluten meal or Dimension along hard edges) is the sheer aggressiveness of a dense & healthy stand of turf to choke to crowd out weeds B4 they even get started.



I applaud your program, and I know it has been very successful for you, but we both know that until forced to by govt regulations, most LCO's are going to continue with the traditional "step" programs, including blanket pre-emergements.


When the death of the traditional '5 step' finally comes, Lefty, it won't be because of some state or fed govt mandate.
You & I both know that's ridiculous!
:waving:

What will happen is a much more gradual death in that green cutting edge organic or bridge LCO's will thrive while old 5 steppers will wane.
And as you probably already know, that trend has already started to occur in many parts of the nation.

When changes happen they'll be forced upon this industry by popular demand from the bottom up by increasingly greener generations of young Americans who become homeowners, as well as somewhat older Americans like the baby busters (born 1965+) who admiringly yet sometimes quietly look up to many of their 'greener' offspring, & day by day try to become more & more environmentally conscious themselves.

MnLefty
11-18-2009, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Marcos



When the death of the traditional '5 step' finally comes, Lefty, it won't be because of some state or fed govt mandate.
You & I both know that's ridiculous!
:waving:

I wonder if our friends north of the border thought that would be ridiculous 5-10 years ago? Now I know that is extreme compared to what our country would/will do... I'm talking more about the local city or county restrictions that have begun the "nickel and dime" process... tough NY registrations, MN phosphorus ban, calendar restrictions of when fert can be applied- Long Island, Florida, etc...

What will happen is a much more gradual death in that green cutting edge organic or bridge LCO's will thrive while old 5 steppers will wane.
And as you probably already know, that trend has already started to occur in many parts of the nation.

When changes happen they'll be forced upon this industry by popular demand from the bottom up by increasingly greener generations of young Americans who become homeowners, as well as somewhat older Americans like the baby busters (born 1965+) who admiringly yet sometimes quietly look up to many of their 'greener' offspring, & day by day try to become more & more environmentally conscious themselves.

I think we basically agree on where things are going, just differ a little on what is going to get it there. You are right, as it stands now it will be a gradual process away from the 5-step, however I think that the potential exists for a mass exodus due to regulations well before the gradual process is complete. Of course it could be said that the regulations I'm speaking of are enacted by, or catering to, the green movement you speak of... in that respect the changes are being forced as you say from the bottom up. I just think there are plenty of old 5-steppers out there that will not change (and will survive at the same time) until regulations rather than customers force them to.

ro1207
11-18-2009, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Marcos
The 'pre-emergent' we like to implement (besides corn gluten meal or Dimension along hard edges) is the sheer aggressiveness of a dense & healthy stand of turf to choke to crowd out weeds B4 they even get started.



When the death of the traditional '5 step' finally comes, Lefty, it won't be because of some state or fed govt mandate.
You & I both know that's ridiculous!
:waving:

What will happen is a much more gradual death in that green cutting edge organic or bridge LCO's will thrive while old 5 steppers will wane.
And as you probably already know, that trend has already started to occur in many parts of the nation.

When changes happen they'll be forced upon this industry by popular demand from the bottom up by increasingly greener generations of young Americans who become homeowners, as well as somewhat older Americans like the baby busters (born 1965+) who admiringly yet sometimes quietly look up to many of their 'greener' offspring, & day by day try to become more & more environmentally conscious themselves.


I do agree that one day the traditional program will die. However I think we are 15 - 20 years away from that happening. When the next generation are in their mid 40's and have reached the point where they are the targeted demographic of an LCO that will happen. Until then the people behind the new upcoming green movement are not homeowners yet, thus don't have the means to control what is being applied. It will gain momentum each year but it will still be nich market for a while. Just my opinion but then again what do I know?!:confused:

Marcos
11-18-2009, 03:29 PM
I think we basically agree on where things are going, just differ a little on what is going to get it there. You are right, as it stands now it will be a gradual process away from the 5-step, however I think that the potential exists for a mass exodus due to regulations well before the gradual process is complete. Of course it could be said that the regulations I'm speaking of are enacted by, or catering to, the green movement you speak of... in that respect the changes are being forced as you say from the bottom up. I just think there are plenty of old 5-steppers out there that will not change (and will survive at the same time) until regulations rather than customers force them to.

What's happening in Canada right now is perfect fodder for why US feds should not over-regulate the turf industry more than it already has.

You're 100% correct. :waving:
Many old-school 5-steppers won't flinch until the day they get a letter in the mail from an agency that tells them they have to.
What will happen is that IF these same 5-steppers fail to diversify their buisinesses somewhat in step with what's going on all around them, they'll increasingly see less & less letters in the mail that read....'Quote Request'.

Marcos
11-18-2009, 04:06 PM
I do agree that one day the traditional program will die. However I think we are 15 - 20 years away from that happening. When the next generation are in their mid 40's and have reached the point where they are the targeted demographic of an LCO that will happen. Until then the people behind the new upcoming green movement are not homeowners yet, thus don't have the means to control what is being applied. It will gain momentum each year but it will still be nich market for a while. Just my opinion but then again what do I know?!:confused:

If I was a betting man I'd knock about 50% off your time frame estimate.

americanlawn
11-18-2009, 05:52 PM
Here's the list of 8 different fert w/pre products that JDL quoted prices on. I will list them beginning with the least expensive price (per 50 pound bag). All 8 feature PPSCU slow release.

STONEWALL .20 19-0-0 25% (PPSCU)
STONEWALL .20 18-0-7 30%
DIMENSION .10 13-0-5 30%
STONEWALL .43 13-0-0 30%
DIMENSION .10 19-0-6 30%
DIMENSION .15 19-0-0 30%
DIMENSION .15 13-0-5 30%
DIMENSION .15 19-0-6 30%

The last product on the list is about $5 more than the first product listed (truckload prices). Not sure which product(s) are the best value, but I trust "LESCO" for their quality.

Marcos
11-18-2009, 08:14 PM
Here's the list of 8 different fert w/pre products that JDL quoted prices on. I will list them beginning with the least expensive price (per 50 pound bag). All 8 feature PPSCU slow release.

STONEWALL .20 19-0-0 25% (PPSCU)
STONEWALL .20 18-0-7 30%
DIMENSION .10 13-0-5 30%
STONEWALL .43 13-0-0 30%
DIMENSION .10 19-0-6 30%
DIMENSION .15 19-0-0 30%
DIMENSION .15 13-0-5 30%
DIMENSION .15 19-0-6 30%

The last product on the list is about $5 more than the first product listed (truckload prices). Not sure which product(s) are the best value, but I trust "LESCO" for their quality.

Oh, give me a break! :wall
What little pulse that was still alive in Lesco died about 2 1/2 years ago!
It's time to call a spade a spade; JD'S using Lesco's name exclusively for the sake of marketing purposes.
For all intents & purposes to anyone interested in buying it, it's now JOHN DEERE fertilizer! :dizzy:

rcreech
11-18-2009, 08:28 PM
Oh, give me a break! :wall
What little pulse that was still alive in Lesco died about 2 1/2 years ago!
It's time to call a spade a spade; JD'S using Lesco's name exclusively for the sake of marketing purposes.
For all intents & purposes to anyone interested in buying it, it's now JOHN DEERE fertilizer! :dizzy:

Marcos,

I totally agree...but from a marketing standpoint that is very smart.

Lesco has a very good name and brand recognition...so why wouldn't they do that?

I am sure they will phase out the Lesco name over time!

I use Lesco and the product has not changed at all. It is still the best product IMO!

turf hokie
11-18-2009, 09:25 PM
Oh, give me a break! :wall
What little pulse that was still alive in Lesco died about 2 1/2 years ago!
It's time to call a spade a spade; JD'S using Lesco's name exclusively for the sake of marketing purposes.
For all intents & purposes to anyone interested in buying it, it's now JOHN DEERE fertilizer! :dizzy:

And I thought you were going to break stones on the pricing by the bag and not by the sq ft or AI.

rcreech
11-18-2009, 09:41 PM
And I thought you were going to break stones on the pricing by the bag and not by the sq ft or AI.

Good point!

I got caught up on what Marcos said...but you are exactly right!

Cost/bag doesn't mean anything when comparing different amounts of N, AI and different AI's.

grassman177
11-19-2009, 12:04 AM
i have never used lesco stuff except the hand spreaders(hate them) so i would not know, but used manyothers and have had great luck with Helena. always a very clean product and now we have our own plant about 30 min from here so the fert is super fresh, even got a warm delivery of urea couple of weeks ago.

ted putnam
11-19-2009, 12:13 AM
Marcos,

I totally agree...but from a marketing standpoint that is very smart.

Lesco has a very good name and brand recognition...so why wouldn't they do that?

I am sure they will phase out the Lesco name over time!

I use Lesco and the product has not changed at all. It is still the best product IMO!

Good point Rodney. TGCL did it for years(at least around here) until the CL name no longer did them any good, either for the lack of increased revenues from the name and reputation (which they've successfully shot to hell) or because they molded them together for so long people don't even realize that it's not part of their logo anymore. Now its just TG. I think Marcos is at least partially correct. Lesco is gone...someday. JD will milk it for all it's worth until it no longer does them any good. At that point, we won't even realize Lesco's not on the bag anymore :laugh:

Hey Marcos, I've got a lawn that I'd like to apply some soybean meal to. I've priced it at the feed store but I have no clue what rates to apply. Can you help me out. You can PM me if you like. Thanks

Marcos
11-19-2009, 03:22 PM
Marcos,

I totally agree...but from a marketing standpoint that is very smart.

Lesco has a very good name and brand recognition...so why wouldn't they do that?

I am sure they will phase out the Lesco name over time!

I use Lesco and the product has not changed at all. It is still the best product IMO!

Fine.
Then next time you walk into your John Deere store, ask them why they just don't go ahead & put the name 'John Deere' on fertilizer bags, too. :waving:
You can't tell me the name Lesco has better overall name recognition than John Deere to the average wholesale buyer!

My overall point here is that the longer JD hangs onto the Lesco name, the more they drag it in the mud in relation to the standard it represented to the green industry 10, 20, & 30 + years ago.
John Deere is not that much different than TGCL in that they're seeking to completely monopolize much of the industry under their name & thus become more global.
If they're going to do that, fine, but ethically, globalists like Deere & TGCL need to stop cowering shamelessly behind the corpses of their fallen takeover prey.

Marcos
11-19-2009, 03:40 PM
Good point Rodney. TGCL did it for years(at least around here) until the CL name no longer did them any good, either for the lack of increased revenues from the name and reputation (which they've successfully shot to hell) or because they molded them together for so long people don't even realize that it's not part of their logo anymore. Now its just TG. I think Marcos is at least partially correct. Lesco is gone...someday. JD will milk it for all it's worth until it no longer does them any good. At that point, we won't even realize Lesco's not on the bag anymore :laugh:

Hey Marcos, I've got a lawn that I'd like to apply some soybean meal to. I've priced it at the feed store but I have no clue what rates to apply. Can you help me out. You can PM me if you like. Thanks

Lesco sold their fertilizer plants before Deere bought them out in order to become more profitable overall as a green industry supplier.
They certainly could have sold 'em knowing they were going to be bought out soon!

Since then, anyone can be supplied by former fertilizer Lesco plants like Martin's Ferry OH, Stockton CA, etc.
Much of what is Andersons fertilizer is produced at these plants now.
Marketing wise, there's nothing unique anymore about John Deere's 'Lesco' fertilizer.

Soybean meal (like most meals) goes down at 15-20# / K.
I'm interested in knowing what wholesale cotton seed meal pricing might be over your way.

americanlawn
11-19-2009, 05:38 PM
Our local JDL store still employees my 2 good (LESCO) buds. These guys are great -- often dropping off product (same day we order it) on their way home. I'm not always certain how their corporate organization works, but I don't ask cuz it's really none of my business. Bottom line: I trust these 2 guys as well as their products, customer service, and their expertise.

As a business owner, I try to get the best value per dollar spent (I don't care what name folks choose to call their company). I was pleased with the LESCO fert w/pre prices, so I will compare when I get our other quotes. BTW, I never "dicker". I expect everybody's best price up front, and I will never disclose prices publicly or with other companies.

I'm in John Deere country, so I'll throw in this pic to lighten things up.

Iowa state fair queen in front of my Challenger she rode in for the fair parade. (1970 numbers matching Hurst pistol grip 4-speed R/T convertible) Behind that were many John Deere tractors. Each year at the Iowa state fair, John Deere provides dozens of tractors that pull "passenger trailers" around the fairgrounds for free.

jbturf
11-19-2009, 08:35 PM
larry, have u considered specing out a custom blend to suit ur needs-
then have your suppliers each price you on it?

i started doing it this way this year, seems easier for me to get what I want,
and compare apples to apples in products and prices

rcreech
11-19-2009, 08:44 PM
larry, have u considered specing out a custom blend to suit ur needs-
then have your suppliers each price you on it?

i started doing it this way this year, seems easier for me to get what I want,
and compare apples to apples in products and prices

Getting a custom blend with a pre sounds a little crazy to me. All you need is just a little N carrier to cover the AI.

What are the advantages and why would you need to get a custom blend?

jbturf
11-19-2009, 09:13 PM
why is it crazy?
doesnt cost any xtra, may actually save money
and i can get the exact product i need,
and not pay for stuff i dont

rcreech
11-19-2009, 09:17 PM
why is it crazy?
doesnt cost any xtra, may actually save money
and i can get the exact product i need,
and not pay for stuff i dont

What are you customizing a pre? I can see customizing your "regular" fert if you have a P, K or micro issue...but why Pre?

All you need is just a touch on N and the AI...how can it get any simpler then a 13-0-0 or 19-0-0 with Pre?

I don't mean crazy :dizzy:.....I just mean why would you?

USUALLY is cost more for a custom mix then a "floor product".

Great if you want to...just wondering why on a pre!

ted putnam
11-19-2009, 10:59 PM
Soybean meal (like most meals) goes down at 15-20# / K.
I'm interested in knowing what wholesale cotton seed meal pricing might be over your way.

I guess I didn't get what you might call wholesale prices. I have a Zoo here at my house(Horse, Pig, 2 dogs and a cat) I spend about $50 a week on animal feed at the local feed store and I get a good price on my bagged Lime there. In passing I asked about it the other day, nothing firm but I'd have my choice of either soy bean or cotton seed meal for about $9.50/ 50lb bag. I'm sure I could get a better price if I bought it by the ton like I do the Lime. 15-20lb/K is a fairly high rate. I'd only get 3K/bag. I'd sure be interested in seeing what it can do though.

rcreech
11-19-2009, 11:32 PM
I guess I didn't get what you might call wholesale prices. I have a Zoo here at my house(Horse, Pig, 2 dogs and a cat) I spend about $50 a week on animal feed at the local feed store and I get a good price on my bagged Lime there. In passing I asked about it the other day, nothing firm but I'd have my choice of either soy bean or cotton seed meal for about $9.50/ 50lb bag. I'm sure I could get a better price if I bought it by the ton like I do the Lime. 15-20lb/K is a fairly high rate. I'd only get 3K/bag. I'd sure be interested in seeing what it can do though.

Ted,

What is your reason for wanting to try SBM vs a synthetic?

For the price...I don't see how anyone could do it!

What is the conversion of a bag of 48.5% protein to lbs of N. I don't remember the math on converting N to protein or the reverse as it has been too long! :confused:

ted putnam
11-20-2009, 01:42 AM
Ted,

What is your reason for wanting to try SBM vs a synthetic?

For the price...I don't see how anyone could do it!

What is the conversion of a bag of 48.5% protein to lbs of N. I don't remember the math on converting N to protein or the reverse as it has been too long! :confused:

Marketing degree here dude, not soil science.:laugh: I have a lawn that is new construction. It was sodded in 2 phases about 2 months apart. The sod came from the same farm but there is a definite difference between the 2 areas with respect to color and thickness. In short, a night and day difference. The entire lawn was fertilized at the same time 2 times toward the end of the growing season yet there is still an obvious difference. I'm willing to try anything to get the lawn to look uniform and make this customer happy. My plan was to try soybean meal on the weaker portion of the lawn.(about 5K). For the price, I don't see how anyone could do it and make money applying it at those rates to their entire customer base either. Somehow Marcos is doing it... At this point I am not looking at converting everyone to protein meals but I would like to make my customer happy and the typical approaches are not working.

rcreech
11-20-2009, 07:40 AM
Marketing degree here dude, not soil science.:laugh: I have a lawn that is new construction. It was sodded in 2 phases about 2 months apart. The sod came from the same farm but there is a definite difference between the 2 areas with respect to color and thickness. In short, a night and day difference. The entire lawn was fertilized at the same time 2 times toward the end of the growing season yet there is still an obvious difference. I'm willing to try anything to get the lawn to look uniform and make this customer happy. My plan was to try soybean meal on the weaker portion of the lawn.(about 5K). For the price, I don't see how anyone could do it and make money applying it at those rates to their entire customer base either. Somehow Marcos is doing it... At this point I am not looking at converting everyone to protein meals but I would like to make my customer happy and the typical approaches are not working.

I had a lawn this year that I couldn't green up for the life of me. I pulled a soil test and Nut'n!

I finally aerated it and Nut'n.

Got pissed and through some micros at it and it improved quite a bit.

I can see where adding that much SBM may increase some microbial activity...but that is pretty expensive N in my book!

Try micros (Fe, S, etc)

ted putnam
11-20-2009, 09:52 AM
I had a lawn this year that I couldn't green up for the life of me. I pulled a soil test and Nut'n!

I finally aerated it and Nut'n.

Got pissed and through some micros at it and it improved quite a bit.

I can see where adding that much SBM may increase some microbial activity...but that is pretty expensive N in my book!

Try micros (Fe, S, etc)

Thanks Rodney, That was kinda already in the plan anyway. I posed a question in the Fert forum on whether micros would/could still be effective just prior to green up. I'd like to add micros to my standard mix and apply them to all customers this coming Spring. I'm not sure if it will be in the budget but I think all of my lawns could benefit.

NattyLawn
11-20-2009, 11:30 AM
Ted,
What is the conversion of a bag of 48.5% protein to lbs of N. I don't remember the math on converting N to protein or the reverse as it has been too long! :confused:

Divide by 6.25.

NattyLawn
11-20-2009, 11:36 AM
Thanks Rodney, That was kinda already in the plan anyway. I posed a question in the Fert forum on whether micros would/could still be effective just prior to green up. I'd like to add micros to my standard mix and apply them to all customers this coming Spring. I'm not sure if it will be in the budget but I think all of my lawns could benefit.

Ted, we have a product called LC10+7. It's 10% humic acid with the 7 micros added. Tree care people, golf courses,and lawn guys use this product with great results for green up, and combined with other products for disease suppression. It won't break the bank either.

rcreech
11-20-2009, 05:31 PM
Divide by 6.25.

Thanks!

As soon as I seen your post I was like....oh yeahhhhh! Just like riding a bike but I was too lazy to look it up!

americanlawn
11-20-2009, 06:22 PM
Thought about custom blends cuz most reps offer it. I also know that most clay soil lawns here lack up to 7 micro's, but try getting that in a bag along with enough pre to do the job while still being competitive & running a profit. We stay profitable buying in truckload quantities and using discounts whenever we can. (prepay, early delivery, etc)

We have just one customer who says his lawn is not as green as his neighbors'. So instead of a five app program, we set his up to six app's per year. This did the job. Grass loves nitrogen, IMO Our program offers only 5 feedings per year, but most local competitors offer 6 app's. (TG offers 7 app's). We'll stick to our 5 app program cuz it works for us, and it's also what our local land grant university recommends for high maintenance lawns.

Not saying we do things best, but our cancellation rate is extremely low. Cross my fingers :laugh:

larry, have u considered specing out a custom blend to suit ur needs-
then have your suppliers each price you on it?

i started doing it this way this year, seems easier for me to get what I want,
and compare apples to apples in products and prices

grassman177
11-20-2009, 06:26 PM
really, 5 is all you need up that way, you can get away with 5 here, but six does better here. we have a bit longer season typically, by 2 weeks or maybe 3 at the most

americanlawn
11-20-2009, 07:17 PM
Makes sense. I agree. Thanks.

jbturf
11-20-2009, 08:00 PM
thats cool, i base my selection as well on constant soil testing, past experience and
constant learning--despite the #yrs ive been doing this i learn new stuff every year


ya, i agree as well ---5 is plenty for my area too--
although i might like to go back to six like i used to, to incorporate an ipm visit
essentially to check up on things and make recomendations

but i know someone doing it and its a tuff sell

grassman177
11-21-2009, 12:51 AM
Larry, i know in nebraska of an lco that only does 4 apps, does anyone up there in iowa do that commonly as you are about the same latitude and stuff!!

i know the whole season changing in progression form north to south and vise versa gets me sometimes. i have taken a late winter vacation in arkansas to leav home with snow and go there to find tulips flowering and the like, as they are about 2-3 weeks ahead of us in spring.

americanlawn
11-22-2009, 03:29 PM
A friend of mine sold his LCO biz about ten years ago. He offered just 4 feedings per year and would not start until mid April. There are over 40 spray outfits listed in our Yellow Pages. All the ones I'm familiar with offer 5 or 6 feedings per year. TG offers 7. It's difficult to sell "cornbelt" folks more than 5 ferts per year. Of course some customers take grub, aeration, and specialty app's, but our round 6 = snow removal. :laugh:

Marcos
11-23-2009, 12:38 PM
I guess I didn't get what you might call wholesale prices. I have a Zoo here at my house(Horse, Pig, 2 dogs and a cat) I spend about $50 a week on animal feed at the local feed store and I get a good price on my bagged Lime there. In passing I asked about it the other day, nothing firm but I'd have my choice of either soy bean or cotton seed meal for about $9.50/ 50lb bag. I'm sure I could get a better price if I bought it by the ton like I do the Lime. 15-20lb/K is a fairly high rate. I'd only get 3K/bag. I'd sure be interested in seeing what it can do though.

That's actually pretty decent pricing for both.
At least as far as pricing is concerned, some grain vendors these days choose not to differentiate so much between wholesale & retail, so long as you're a repeat customer.

Marcos
11-23-2009, 01:44 PM
Marketing degree here dude, not soil science.:laugh: I have a lawn that is new construction. It was sodded in 2 phases about 2 months apart. The sod came from the same farm but there is a definite difference between the 2 areas with respect to color and thickness. In short, a night and day difference. The entire lawn was fertilized at the same time 2 times toward the end of the growing season yet there is still an obvious difference. I'm willing to try anything to get the lawn to look uniform and make this customer happy. My plan was to try soybean meal on the weaker portion of the lawn.(about 5K). For the price, I don't see how anyone could do it and make money applying it at those rates to their entire customer base either. Somehow Marcos is doing it... At this point I am not looking at converting everyone to protein meals but I would like to make my customer happy and the typical approaches are not working.

Let me clarify something to both you & Creech.

Folks that go out of their way to seek out & call organic lawn services for a quote typically have it pre-decided in their hearts that they're not going to compare them apples to apples price-wise to the Tru-greens et al in their specific market.

More often than not, these prospects are quite determined in what they want.
A lot of them want to get away from 'traditional' fertilizers & 5-step lawn care, they ALL want something 'organic' in some way shape or form.
But after a typical opening discussion, we'll usually find a primary concern about the impact of herbicides & insecticides on their family & pets, then usually a secondary underlying obligation as stewards of nature about the potential damage fertilizers do to soil microbes that sustain vegetation & the quality of water in waterways and aquifers from which we draw our drinking water.
(This is precisely where IPM enters the discussion :))

I'm not saying here that price ISN'T considered by the prospect. Not at all! We're not naive to realize there's not competition out there, organic or not.
What I am saying is that there are other factors besides price competitiveness that flow through the decision-making mind of an organic lawn/landscape prospect:

Locally-
In the long term....enhanced property value to the client inherint in building better quality of SOIL in their lawn / landscape.
Their lawn & garden is PERCEIVED as being a safer place for their family to be!

Globally-
Each client walks away knowing that although they're paying more for compost & /or protein meals, they're working to do their part to reduce the amount of lawn chemicals & fertilizers exposed to the environment.

________

Then once they sign on, it's up to us to continue to make them feel as they're 'part of the Green Team' by continual tips & updates on their lawn's condition, etc.

My ultimate point to you is that at least in Ohio, leads in this sector of the green industry aren't as numerous as you may think.
We don't get very many leads that aren't referrals.
We land almost all the referrals, but only a modest piece of those that aren't.
Organic lawn care truly IS a grass roots movement from mouth to mouth! :)

Marcos
11-23-2009, 02:06 PM
I had a lawn this year that I couldn't green up for the life of me. I pulled a soil test and Nut'n!

I finally aerated it and Nut'n.

Got pissed and through some micros at it and it improved quite a bit.

I can see where adding that much SBM may increase some microbial activity...but that is pretty expensive N in my book!

Try micros (Fe, S, etc)

Like I was for nearly 20 years before I went out on my own, you are programmed to the hilt to think exclusively in terms of N,P K, micros & pH adjustments.
For you to completely understand the world of microbes & how they benefit soil in the long term, you have to 1st begin the slow but steady process of putting that invalid 'NPK mind frame' to rest once & for all.

Feed the soil, NOT the grass! :waving:

Marcos
11-23-2009, 02:22 PM
A friend of mine sold his LCO biz about ten years ago. He offered just 4 feedings per year and would not start until mid April. There are over 40 spray outfits listed in our Yellow Pages. All the ones I'm familiar with offer 5 or 6 feedings per year. TG offers 7. It's difficult to sell "cornbelt" folks more than 5 ferts per year. Of course some customers take grub, aeration, and specialty app's, but our round 6 = snow removal. :laugh:

5 rounds of fertilizer per year...what a cryin' shame! :cry:
Save 2 or 3 of those stop charges and re-invest them back in something much more worthwhile!:waving:
You'd get the same overall turf effect year after year with either 2 compost topdressings of 1/4" spring & fall, or three applications of soybean or cotton seed meal spaced out evenly during the earlier & middle part of the growing season.

Organic= More expensive?
More often than not these days, that's just perception.
:wall

foreplease
11-23-2009, 06:05 PM
This should be quite entertaining.

foreplease
11-23-2009, 06:09 PM
I had a lawn this year that I couldn't green up for the life of me. I pulled a soil test and Nut'n!

I finally aerated it and Nut'n.

Got pissed and through some micros at it and it improved quite a bit.

I can see where adding that much SBM may increase some microbial activity...but that is pretty expensive N in my book!

Try micros (Fe, S, etc)

Do you know what varieties are in the lawn? My guess is this will be a problem every year and that it could be a variety with poor color potential. We had a local football field like that, it was an aggressive variety that was only 6 on NTEP''s color scale. They resodded it last year and it was only five, maybe six years old.

rcreech
11-23-2009, 07:04 PM
Do you know what varieties are in the lawn? My guess is this will be a problem every year and that it could be a variety with poor color potential. We had a local football field like that, it was an aggressive variety that was only 6 on NTEP''s color scale. They resodded it last year and it was only five, maybe six years old.

I seeded this lawn last fall with TTTF. So I know the turf isn't the issue. This is a 300 k home and they dug the basement and scattered it all over the front lawn.

That is part of the issue.

Marcos,

I will agree with you and I did tell the homeowner they may want to purchase some topsoil. I know that adding ammendments or topsoil in a situation like this would work...but I always try and rule out the simple/cheap fix's first.

Once aeration didn't help as much as I thought and the micros did...that tells me that we definitily have a "soil problem". I have 2 lawns across the street and they are sweet...so I am sure it has something to do with the sub soil...but I have never had an issue like this before.

I even told the homeowner their lawn has me scrathing my head. Some things just can't be explained...but I think topsoil may fix the problem!

americanlawn
11-23-2009, 07:36 PM
I got Snake Oil for $19.95 a bottle. :laugh:

grassman177
11-23-2009, 07:50 PM
mine is only $15. 95

foreplease
11-23-2009, 08:38 PM
mine is only $15. 95

% a.i. please.

rcreech
11-23-2009, 09:21 PM
I will sell you guys all your want for $9.95.

phasthound
11-23-2009, 09:55 PM
:)I'll be the Devil's advicate here.

I know this is from a Liberal Eastern Institution
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/garden/24garden.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all
but there is a great deal of merit into understanding the importance of feeding the soil, not the plant.

And by the way, this is my apolitical opinion. :)

rcreech
11-23-2009, 10:00 PM
:)I'll be the Devil's advicate here.

I know this is from a Liberal Eastern Institution
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/24/garden/24garden.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all
but there is a great deal of merit into understanding the importance of feeding the soil, not the plant.

And by the way, this is my apolitical opinion. :)

Barry,

Would your products get these results or does a person need the teas?

I wouldn't mind going a more organic blend fert if I get results and still use a sound herbicide program. I still think that herb apps will always be needed...but I would be interested in learning more about alternative "GOOD" fert programs if they work.

Teach me as I know very little about this aproach!

Thanks,
RC

grassman177
11-23-2009, 11:27 PM
yes, more info

greendoctor
11-24-2009, 01:58 AM
I had a lawn this year that I couldn't green up for the life of me. I pulled a soil test and Nut'n!

I finally aerated it and Nut'n.

Got pissed and through some micros at it and it improved quite a bit.

I can see where adding that much SBM may increase some microbial activity...but that is pretty expensive N in my book!

Try micros (Fe, S, etc)

Throw all the N you want at a lawn in Hawaii and all you will get is pale grass that overgrows in between cuts. Apply adequate micronutrients, S and get the Ca/Mg levels, ratio right, you get grass that is an unearthly shade of green, but does not overgrow. I know too many bozos that think they are better than me because they temporarily get grass greener with 10 lb ammonium sulfate. But their lawns grow like mad for about 3 weeks, then crash. Mine will stay green for about 45-60 days and that is with a liquid application containing about 1/2-3/4 lb of N. Not some coated urea product.

Marcos
11-24-2009, 04:32 AM
I seeded this lawn last fall with TTTF. So I know the turf isn't the issue. This is a 300 k home and they dug the basement and scattered it all over the front lawn.

That is part of the issue.

Marcos,

I will agree with you and I did tell the homeowner they may want to purchase some topsoil. I know that adding ammendments or topsoil in a situation like this would work...but I always try and rule out the simple/cheap fix's first.

Once aeration didn't help as much as I thought and the micros did...that tells me that we definitily have a "soil problem". I have 2 lawns across the street and they are sweet...so I am sure it has something to do with the sub soil...but I have never had an issue like this before.

I even told the homeowner their lawn has me scrathing my head. Some things just can't be explained...but I think topsoil may fix the problem!

I'm sure scraping & replacing the topsoil will work fine, Rodney.
But there's an easier & much more efficient way to skin that cat, in the long run. :waving:

You know there's gotta be someone in the general vicinity of rural Preble co. selling a decent quality commercial, maneuverable, stand-on or sit-down compost topdresser!

A lot of times these 'sub soils' actually are loaded with nutrients.
They just have to be woken up by the infusion of microbes & oxygen...& time!

rcreech
11-24-2009, 07:25 AM
I'm sure scraping & replacing the topsoil will work fine, Rodney.
But there's an easier & much more efficient way to skin that cat, in the long run. :waving:

You know there's gotta be someone in the general vicinity of rural Preble co. selling a decent quality commercial, maneuverable, stand-on or sit-down compost topdresser!

A lot of times these 'sub soils' actually are loaded with nutrients.
They just have to be woken up by the infusion of microbes & oxygen...& time!

I have looked and looked for a pull type topdresser....and they are out there, but $$$$$$$ :cry:.

Would love to have one for spreading top soil and mostly for sand on all my athletic fields. Next year I will be over 23.5 acres of athletic fields alone!

I pulled soil samples of this front lawn and it didn't call for anything on the stanard pull. Everything looked pretty good!

The back lawn is as beautiful as can be (virgin soils)...but the front where they put the basement dirt is something else.

As stated...I cored, seeded and added micros and it is coming...but nowhere where it needed to be yet.

Anyone know where I can pick up a GOOD used topdresser? Needs to be a smaller one so I can use on commercial and residential?

Thanks,
RC

rcreech
11-24-2009, 07:28 AM
Throw all the N you want at a lawn in Hawaii and all you will get is pale grass that overgrows in between cuts. Apply adequate micronutrients, S and get the Ca/Mg levels, ratio right, you get grass that is an unearthly shade of green, but does not overgrow. I know too many bozos that think they are better than me because they temporarily get grass greener with 10 lb ammonium sulfate. But their lawns grow like mad for about 3 weeks, then crash. Mine will stay green for about 45-60 days and that is with a liquid application containing about 1/2-3/4 lb of N. Not some coated urea product.

Hawaii and OH are two totally different animals I am sure.

Out of over 500 lawns I have taken care of this is probably the first one that has beaten me so far.

MOST lawns respond great to N here as that is the only limiting elelment due to our soils being so naturally healthy with all elements.

I can hit almost all my lawns with a slow release N 4 times a year and I look like a stud.

This one is just a special case due to the subsoil that was puked into the front of the house!

foreplease
11-24-2009, 09:33 AM
I have looked and looked for a pull type topdresser....and they are out there, but $$$$$$$

Anyone know where I can pick up a GOOD used topdresser? Needs to be a smaller one so I can use on commercial and residential?

Thanks,
RC

This (http://www.govdeals.com/eas/closedItems_sold.cfm?itemID=788&acctID=658&CFID=11688511&CFTOKEN=38439418) one just went for $260 in Dublin, OH. Looks like it could have been made good for a couple hundred more bucks. Bound to be others out there. I got a great one 7-8 years ago for $800 that still works perfectly. It needed no work and came with a box of spare parts I have never had to use. I can pull it with a 14 HP lawn tractor, a Jacobsen that is almost 30 years old!

NattyLawn
11-24-2009, 11:03 AM
I have looked and looked for a pull type topdresser....and they are out there, but $$$$$$$ :cry:.

Would love to have one for spreading top soil and mostly for sand on all my athletic fields. Next year I will be over 23.5 acres of athletic fields alone!

I pulled soil samples of this front lawn and it didn't call for anything on the stanard pull. Everything looked pretty good!

The back lawn is as beautiful as can be (virgin soils)...but the front where they put the basement dirt is something else.

As stated...I cored, seeded and added micros and it is coming...but nowhere where it needed to be yet.

Anyone know where I can pick up a GOOD used topdresser? Needs to be a smaller one so I can use on commercial and residential?

Thanks,
RC

This sounds like the topsoil stripped new lawns I get calls on from time to time. What you're going to need here is patience and time. I would topdress it, or bomb it 20lbs per k of 4-3-1 or 4-4-2 from Nutrients Plus, 4 times a year. Build the OM back up and then you shouldn't have issues in the future.

Marcos
11-24-2009, 03:46 PM
This (http://www.govdeals.com/eas/closedItems_sold.cfm?itemID=788&acctID=658&CFID=11688511&CFTOKEN=38439418) one just went for $260 in Dublin, OH. Looks like it could have been made good for a couple hundred more bucks. Bound to be others out there. I got a great one 7-8 years ago for $800 that still works perfectly. It needed no work and came with a box of spare parts I have never had to use. I can pull it with a 14 HP lawn tractor, a Jacobsen that is almost 30 years old!

Loos like it wasn't a bad deal for the price.
A pull behind Turfco like that is nice for wide open areas, but terrible for residentials that usually have plenty of obstacles to deal with.

Marcos
11-24-2009, 03:59 PM
I have looked and looked for a pull type topdresser....and they are out there, but $$$$$$$ :cry:.

Would love to have one for spreading top soil and mostly for sand on all my athletic fields. Next year I will be over 23.5 acres of athletic fields alone!

I pulled soil samples of this front lawn and it didn't call for anything on the stanard pull. Everything looked pretty good!

The back lawn is as beautiful as can be (virgin soils)...but the front where they put the basement dirt is something else.

As stated...I cored, seeded and added micros and it is coming...but nowhere where it needed to be yet.

Anyone know where I can pick up a GOOD used topdresser? Needs to be a smaller one so I can use on commercial and residential?

Thanks,
RC

Here's a 15 year old 18 cu ft capacity pull behind Toro in Canton for $2750.00
http://www.cutteronline.com/eqList.asp
http://www.toro.com/grounds/utility/appequip/topdresser/1800.html
Looks to me like it's worth at least the cost of one long distance phone call. :waving:

foreplease
11-24-2009, 05:36 PM
All I do is wide open spaces. That unit for the Workman is nice. Golf course type. One of the programs I work with has a Workman to groom infields with. When I first worked on golf courses we used a motorized walk behind (walk in front, really) Mete-R-Matic.

Once rcreech mentioned he has the equivalent of ten football fields, I thought the Meter-R-Matic tow behind would be worthwhile. More and more I feel like I got a great deal on mine. Right now it's working out to $100 a year and getting better every season. Depends on how you are already set up with tractor to load and pull it, and a way to trailer everything.

Back on topic: I have never spready any JDL fertilizer with mine but if the price continues to drop I might :laugh:

phasthound
11-24-2009, 06:15 PM
Barry,

Would your products get these results or does a person need the teas?

I wouldn't mind going a more organic blend fert if I get results and still use a sound herbicide program. I still think that herb apps will always be needed...but I would be interested in learning more about alternative "GOOD" fert programs if they work.

Teach me as I know very little about this aproach!

Thanks,
RC

I thought it best to start a new thread (Harvard Yard) as this has nothing to do with JDL pricing.

rcreech
11-26-2009, 12:05 PM
Got a question on topdressers!

Look at this unit:

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=used+top+dressers&page=1&qsrc=121&dm=all&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalturfequipment.com%2F%3Fpage%3Dcategory%26cat%3DTop_Dresser_Spreader&sg=mB4g8NkFHK19oF6BurD6NLO0mknUqYpu5ET5gDIgJj4%3D&tsp=1259251174038

I am used to knowing what I am buying and in this case this is a WHOLE new piece of equipment to me.

I look at this and how in the heck do you use it? Is it a 3 pt unit because I don't see any lift points...or do I have to come up with a "set of wheels" or a cart to pull it on?

I would love to have a 3 pt unit like this as I could go anywhere with it...but not sure if weight would be too much of an issue hanging off the back????

Let me know if you have any experience with this unit!

Also...how do you load?

I have a loader on my Deere...but that won't help me if that is what I am using on the topdresser as I don't want to hook and unhook all the time and I also don't want to have to used 2 tractors!

rcreech
11-26-2009, 12:09 PM
What about something like this little guy????

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?PG=30

Not real big on a "walking unit"...as I would rather pull one with a tractor...but atleast I could use my loader to load this one.

rcreech
11-26-2009, 12:20 PM
What about this one???

I like it as it is a pulled unit!

Are these wheel driven (which I am pretty sure it is) or hydraulic?

Sorry for all the questions!

NattyLawn
11-26-2009, 01:06 PM
You must not venture into the organic forum at all. The major walk behind top dressers have been discussed. Personally, I demo'd the EcoLawn and liked the unit. The downside for me was no reverse. Others didn't like it. I would wait for the LawnSolutions top dresser which should be out soon.

For a pull behind, take a look at these guys:
http://www.earthandturf.com/ms320.htm

Barry uses their walk behind unit.

rcreech
11-26-2009, 08:31 PM
You must not venture into the organic forum at all. The major walk behind top dressers have been discussed. Personally, I demo'd the EcoLawn and liked the unit. The downside for me was no reverse. Others didn't like it. I would wait for the LawnSolutions top dresser which should be out soon.

For a pull behind, take a look at these guys:
http://www.earthandturf.com/ms320.htm

Barry uses their walk behind unit.

I never go over to the organic forum. I think it is in the best interst of all on here that I stay away from that side of this site as I view things much differently then the ones on that part of the forum.

Thanks for the info though as I am very intersted into learning more about this side and hope I can find a reasonable top dresser to apply topsoil, sand and ammendments!

I am afraid that if I go over on the organic side that I will say things that I shouldn't. Plus I don't appreciate it when they come over here and spread their crap (no pun intended) :).

foreplease
11-26-2009, 11:47 PM
This link takes me to a long list of many kinds of equipment. I can't tell which piece you are asking about. Can you post the photo or another link?

Got a question on topdressers!

Look at this unit:

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=used+top+dressers&page=1&qsrc=121&dm=all&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalturfequipment.com%2F%3Fpage%3Dcategory%26cat%3DTop_Dresser_Spreader&sg=mB4g8NkFHK19oF6BurD6NLO0mknUqYpu5ET5gDIgJj4%3D&tsp=1259251174038

I am used to knowing what I am buying and in this case this is a WHOLE new piece of equipment to me.

I look at this and how in the heck do you use it? Is it a 3 pt unit because I don't see any lift points...or do I have to come up with a "set of wheels" or a cart to pull it on?

I would love to have a 3 pt unit like this as I could go anywhere with it...but not sure if weight would be too much of an issue hanging off the back????

Let me know if you have any experience with this unit!

Also...how do you load?

I have a loader on my Deere...but that won't help me if that is what I am using on the topdresser as I don't want to hook and unhook all the time and I also don't want to have to used 2 tractors!

rcreech
11-27-2009, 09:05 AM
This link takes me to a long list of many kinds of equipment. I can't tell which piece you are asking about. Can you post the photo or another link?

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=used+top+dressers&page=1&qsrc=121&dm=all&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalturfequipment.com%2F%3Fpage%3Dcategory%26cat%3DTop_Dresser_Spreader&sg=mB4g8NkFHK19oF6BurD6NLO0mknUqYpu5ET5gDIgJj4%3D&tsp=1259251174038


For some reason it won't let me put the picture on there. It is one that is close to the bottom and it is a Toro Top Dresser that is laying on the ground. From what I have checked on, I think it fits a toro piece of equipment so I will have to make something to put it on and pull it.

I think I am going to go a different route as I can buy one for the same money already and don't have to do any work on it....and it has spinners (which I think I would like better anyway).

What do you guys think?

foreplease
11-27-2009, 10:53 AM
Ah yeah...for the Toro Workman. This would be good for tees and greens. If you were just starting out in business and were doing all wide open areas a Workman might be a great base piece of equipment. You can mount sprayer, topdresser, fertilizer spreader, infield groomer, and many other tools on it. On many golf courses they have a fleet of Workmans. It's easier and more efficient than changing implements all the time, plus they have a real need for a nearly full-time dedicated machine, especially for spraying. They are work horses.

I think you want something ground driven, not one like this, nor PTO, or engine type. I look at it as buying more engines than one needs. Your other concern about having to mount one on the same machine you would load it on is very valid. Ground driven is simple. Grease it and keep air in the tires. Gravity tends to always work :)

Hard to beat a Mete-R-Matic tow behind for athletic fields. With your box truck transporting it would not be tough. They are pretty wide for typical car hauler type tandem trailer though. There's gotta be a good used one out there for you at $1,500-$2,000. maybe a lot less if you have time to wait and look.

The one you linked to would be tough/impractical to convert for tractor IMO. I think you would end up making a trailer for it, which doesn't make any sense given the other choices. Your other wish to avoid a walk behind is right on. Don't give in to that, but know doing homes with tow behind won't be practical.

americanlawn
11-27-2009, 02:46 PM
$1250 (buy it now price) for a TURFCO Mete-R-Matic on ebay right now. Location, Giants stadium, NY. Fits Cushman Truckster, Toro Workman or JD Gator. Price is right, but not sure about shipping cost. Also rcreech, you would have to borrow a friend's Gator to mount it on.

rcreech
11-27-2009, 05:19 PM
$1250 (buy it now price) for a TURFCO Mete-R-Matic on ebay right now. Location, Giants stadium, NY. Fits Cushman Truckster, Toro Workman or JD Gator. Price is right, but not sure about shipping cost. Also rcreech, you would have to borrow a friend's Gator to mount it on.

I seen that one last night...but it is pick up only.

Does that fit on a JD Gator?

foreplease
11-27-2009, 10:18 PM
That is the same style as the Toro one you mentioned.

Here is what I use and the small tractor I sometimes use to pull it. I load it with a JD 1050 with small loader. Those are not my guns steering the tractor :)

169322

169323

rcreech
11-27-2009, 10:58 PM
That is the same style as the Toro one you mentioned.

Here is what I use and the small tractor I sometimes use to pull it. I load it with a JD 1050 with small loader. Those are not my guns steering the tractor :)

169322

169323

Is that a Turfco?

So that little tractor will pull the top dresser?

How much will the top dresser unit hold?

I think that is EXACTLY what I would like to have.

That is a nice outfit!

foreplease
11-27-2009, 11:13 PM
Is that a Turfco?

So that little tractor will pull the top dresser?

How much will the top dresser unit hold?

I think that is EXACTLY what I would like to have.

That is a nice outfit!

That's what I have been trying to say buddy :) Thank you.

With my set up, weight is the primary consideration with the small tractor pulling. I use a mostly sand topdressing mix with a little compost. I can get 3/4yard or more in it at a time. You just have to be able to pull it and get started without breaking wheels loose on the turf. That isn't a big problem anyway because typically you load and start off field. Last time I used it to place Turface on infield dirt (works great) I think I got 14 50# bags in at a time. At that point, the volume was an issue because the stuff is so much lighter than the topdressing material. I will find a picture of how it does on infields – something I tried for the heck of it and now swear by.

Yes, it is an older Turfco Mete-R-Matic tow behind unit. The photo is dark at the bottom but it has six tires across.

That little tractor has been great. It is almost 30 years old. I took the deck off for good last summer. I use it while working on infield edging, throwing the sod pieces on my very heavy trailer (car hauler tandem type with steel deck over wood) and hauling them off the field. Leaves no marks at all. Around my own yard, I load five yards of hardwood bark mulch on the trailer and pull it around with the little Jac. I use the setup like a huge wheelbarrow.

Paid $800 for the topdresser 7-8 years ago and have not done any work to it. Keep it clean, indoors as much as possible, greased and aired up. Around town, I tow it carefully behind truck instead of trailering it. I keep it under 25 mph.

foreplease
11-27-2009, 11:27 PM
Part way through putting down a light application (66 bags) of Turface MVP with the topdresser on a new field (complete renovation). Opening on Turfco as about 2/3 open. I did the edges along grass with a small drop spreader all the way open, walking backwards. Honestly, the infield barely needed to be groomed when I finished with the topdresser (a previous layer had been mixed in to infield dirt). Using the topdresser was like painting with a roller, the drop spreader was like cutting in with a brush around a door or window.
169340

rcreech
11-28-2009, 08:26 AM
Part way through putting down a light application (66 bags) of Turface MVP with the topdresser on a new field (complete renovation). Opening on Turfco as about 2/3 open. I did the edges along grass with a small drop spreader all the way open, walking backwards. Honestly, the infield barely needed to be groomed when I finished with the topdresser (a previous layer had been mixed in to infield dirt). Using the topdresser was like painting with a roller, the drop spreader was like cutting in with a brush around a door or window.
169340

Nice turf man!

Thanks for the pics!

I am going to have to find me a deal like you got!!!!!!

Marcos
11-29-2009, 12:38 AM
That's what I have been trying to say buddy :) Thank you.

With my set up, weight is the primary consideration with the small tractor pulling. I use a mostly sand topdressing mix with a little compost. I can get 3/4yard or more in it at a time. You just have to be able to pull it and get started without breaking wheels loose on the turf. That isn't a big problem anyway because typically you load and start off field. Last time I used it to place Turface on infield dirt (works great) I think I got 14 50# bags in at a time. At that point, the volume was an issue because the stuff is so much lighter than the topdressing material. I will find a picture of how it does on infields – something I tried for the heck of it and now swear by.

Yes, it is an older Turfco Mete-R-Matic tow behind unit. The photo is dark at the bottom but it has six tires across.

That little tractor has been great. It is almost 30 years old. I took the deck off for good last summer. I use it while working on infield edging, throwing the sod pieces on my very heavy trailer (car hauler tandem type with steel deck over wood) and hauling them off the field. Leaves no marks at all. Around my own yard, I load five yards of hardwood bark mulch on the trailer and pull it around with the little Jac. I use the setup like a huge wheelbarrow.

Paid $800 for the topdresser 7-8 years ago and have not done any work to it. Keep it clean, indoors as much as possible, greased and aired up. Around town, I tow it carefully behind truck instead of trailering it. I keep it under 25 mph.

So that's an old Mete-R-Matic, huh?
Nice.
The 21st century version of Turfco 'Mete-R-Matic' is a sleek, shiny self-propelled 2nd mortgage on 5 wheels. :laugh:

rcreech
11-29-2009, 01:19 PM
That is the same style as the Toro one you mentioned.

Here is what I use and the small tractor I sometimes use to pull it. I load it with a JD 1050 with small loader. Those are not my guns steering the tractor :)

169322

169323

You are sitting good on your unit! I found one just like it on e-bay and they are asking $2800. I offered $800 and they declined! :cry:

Oh well...I will keep looking!

Thanks for all your help thus far!

foreplease
11-29-2009, 02:54 PM
WOW. Keep looking. Talk to golf courses and a distributor for who sells the mounted units. Generally places moving up to those have one like mine they are replacing.

I cropped out the hopper on mine because it has my company name on it. Sounds like you have a good idea what they look like now.

rcreech
11-30-2009, 10:36 PM
This may be a stupid question...but I forgot to ask.

Will the Turfco unit spread compost and/or topsoil?

I was reading and it said it only handles up to 1/4".

Anyone know?

Just wanted to make sure before I bought one as I think that will be a large part of my usage.

foreplease
11-30-2009, 11:10 PM
Yes. Anything you would be willing to put down it will do. Sticks, leaves, large stones, wet clumpy material will clog it up or cause uneven application. It will pass larger stones than you would like to hit with a mower.

rcreech
11-30-2009, 11:14 PM
Yes. Anything you would be willing to put down it will do. Sticks, leaves, large stones, wet clumpy material will clog it up or cause uneven application. It will pass larger stones than you would like to hit with a mower.



I just wanted to make sure that these units didn't just handle fine stuff like sand.

It is will deliver topsoil that is exactly what I am looking for!

Thanks for all your help!

RC

lawnguru12
01-29-2010, 02:38 PM
If any of you guys are interested, my company can custom blend water soluble fertilizers at any mix ratio...if you would like some pricing let me know..Thanks

Marcos
01-29-2010, 02:51 PM
If any of you guys are interested, my company can custom blend water soluble fertilizers at any mix ratio...if you would like some pricing let me know..Thanks

parasite...

rg1972
01-29-2010, 05:00 PM
JDL in Northern Indiana giving 19-0-0 w/.10 Dimension away at $11.64 / bag. (3) pallet user... What's going on??

rcreech
01-29-2010, 05:21 PM
JDL in Northern Indiana giving 19-0-0 w/.10 Dimension away at $11.64 / bag. (3) pallet user... What's going on??

Please PM me or post the location and phone number of this JDL.

Too good to be true if you ask me!

I buy 50 ton of pre and didn't get a price like that!

Are you sure it is a 50# bag?

DUSTYCEDAR
01-29-2010, 05:54 PM
Wow that is low

rg1972
02-01-2010, 10:22 AM
Elkhart, IN.....

Marcos
02-01-2010, 10:59 AM
JDL in Northern Indiana giving 19-0-0 w/.10 Dimension away at $11.64 / bag. (3) pallet user... What's going on??

I'll betcha a hot fudge sundae the 19-0-0 has no sulfur or poly coating on it, and they've turned into solid bricks! :laugh:

rg1972
02-01-2010, 11:03 AM
Nope... 30%PPSCU w/.10 Dimension, I guess they are trying to steal new business

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
02-01-2010, 11:03 AM
I'll betcha a hot fudge sundae the 19-0-0 has no sulfur or poly coating on it, and they've turned into solid bricks! :laugh:

Actually it's 30%ppscu:rolleyes: Now where is my hot fudge sunday:)

Marcos
02-01-2010, 11:09 AM
Actually it's 30%ppscu:rolleyes: Now where is my hot fudge sunday:)

You're kidding?
Are they maybe having their 'spring expo' today / this week...if Deere / Lesco still has spring expos? :confused:

I suppose I could meet you in Richmond IN.. at "the most famous exit in IN" with that sundae! :waving:
You wouldn't be in Liberty IN, would you?

latlawn
02-01-2010, 11:13 AM
wow thats good

LIBERTYLANDSCAPING
02-01-2010, 11:19 AM
I suppose I could meet you in Richmond IN.. at "the most famous exit in IN" with that sundae! :waving:
You wouldn't be in Liberty IN, would you?


No, Goshen, IN

Is that a full organic sundae, or a bridge one??:laugh::laugh:

Those prices come w/ 120 day terms!

I mentioned to another supplier & they matched prices:laugh:

Marcos
02-01-2010, 03:16 PM
No, Goshen, IN

Is that a full organic sundae, or a bridge one??:laugh::laugh:

Those prices come w/ 120 day terms!

I mentioned to another supplier & they matched prices:laugh:

One of Lesco's biggest problems as they expanded was that they cannibalized off themselves all the time.
I wonder if this is a signal that Deere's changing the way they're going to do business in '10 (?) :confused:

From what I've heard from conversations at the ol' horse shoe pit & impromptu back yard corn hole tournaments, yearly sales commissions paid to Lesco store mgrs in past years have gone back & forth more than a couple times thru the years.

At one point in time each store mgr was being compensated (primarily) based upon the sales & profit generated by any given customer, who had their specific service center # attached to them.

Then at other point(s) in time, it apparently didn't matter what store # a customer would be listed under.
Whatever Lesco adjacent store they went to that given day got credit for that day's sale.

Could the pendulum be swinging now to the latter?
Is 2010 cannibal time at Deere/Lesco? :confused: