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YKClipper
11-17-2009, 09:56 AM
Iím putting together a proposal involving veneering Environmental Stone to the front of a commercial building. Having read numerous posts over the years, I would not be foolish enough to throw myself to the wolves and request cost comparisons. :hammerhead: However, I would love to get a range of time estimates for the veneer work using the cultured stone.

Depending on the price, we may attach it to 3 areas. The front door area is the priority. It measures 16 foot high by 22 foot wide, surrounds the main entryway, and is about 150 square feet. The 2 other areas are rectangles on opposite sides of the building, 10 Ĺ foot high by 8 foot wide, totaling 170 square feet. So, 3 areas, totaling 320 square feet, portions needing to be done off scaffolding. This is not my first time veneering, but my first time using cultured stone.

Last fall I applied remnants of kitchen counter tops to the lower half of a split level home being built by the owner of a Kitchen Design Company. Due to the massive weight, we had to attach ľ inch plywood to the OSB, prior to the vapor barrier, lathes, scratch coat, and granite, and we had to use spacers and rise only 4 or 5 feet at a time. Plus, we had decided to go with angular pieces, so everything had to be cut into right angles. Comparing installation of the granite countertops to installation of the cultured stone would be like comparing picking blueberries to picking potatoes.

Specifically: How many square feet of Cultured Ledgestone can be applied, working at ground level, by one person, in one day? Assume I mix my own mortar. Thanks for your help.:waving:

DVS Hardscaper
11-17-2009, 05:06 PM
being you're not a veteran mason, there is no way you'll obtain production efficiencies that'll enable you to make a profit. It's all about skill level.

veneering is a skill, as well as an art. You'll have crazy inconsistant joints, and smearing.

Best thing to do is a few small jobs around your home or your great aunt Helen's home and get some practice.


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wurkn with amish
11-17-2009, 06:08 PM
Figure around( since your not experienced) 30-40ft2 a day. Unless the stones are large then figure a little more.

YKClipper
11-18-2009, 02:28 AM
being you're not a veteran mason, there is no way you'll obtain production efficiencies that'll enable you to make a profit. It's all about skill level.

veneering is a skill, as well as an art. You'll have crazy inconsistant joints, and smearing.

Best thing to do is a few small jobs around your home or your great aunt Helen's home and get some practice.

DVS Hardscaper Ė I wanted to practice on my Aunt Helenís home, but she died a few years back when the retaining wall I built fell on her. :laugh:You predicted as much when I asked for help on a written guarantee. DVS Hardscaper Ė ďRetaining walls are NOT to be taken lightly. You have to know what you're doing. As you won't be able to say "sorry frank and helen, you're warranty is up".Ē

Fortunately, I went ahead and built the wall any way. Iíll post a photo. Itís 100-foot long, with a 67-foot width, an 8-foot maximum exposed height, and a 2,000-foot patio on top. Six months after it was built, it withstood Spring floods on the river that reached 3 feet from the top of the wall, and the only evidence of the destructive power of the river were a few logs and debris deposited at itís base.

As I said in my initial post, last year I veneered the lower half of a split level, using remnants from kitchen counter tops. Iím sure you are familiar with the density of granite. Iíll post some photos of that as well. I went back to look at my photos, and couldnít find any, ďcrazy inconsistant joints, and smearing.Ē :confused: Do I sound like a newbie? I'm not going to turn out crap. I've done veneer work, but not cultured stone veneer; FYI, Iím 54 and have been in business since 1978 with a few mental health breaks and/or career diversions along the way. For the right price, Iíll post my bio.

Wurkn with Amish Ė thanks for your input. :waving::waving:I checked with the manufacturer and was told 60 Ė 80 sf/day. An extremely experienced mason friend of mine told me today he thinks the 2 of us and a tender can get the 150 square foot wall done in a day. Thatís for laying the stone with the scratch coat. The pattern is a ledge stone that will require string lines. Iíll get the barrier, lathes, and scaffolding set up the day before. I may need to do a little tweaking and fussing the next day, or start on the 2 - 8 Ĺ by 10 Ĺ panels.

And . . . not only will I make a profit, but upon completion of this job, I expect to considerably increase my sales.

The first 4 photos are of the granite veneer I did last fall. Each piece is unique. The last photo is of the retaining wall. The photo does not do justice to the size of the wall because there is no scale. I thought about photo shopping some one to sit on the edge of the wall, but instead I think I'll just go back as now they have benches, and a large gazebo on the patio.

greatinmulchbeds
11-18-2009, 10:35 AM
nice patio, its cool you kept the two trees at each end of the entrance. good natural shade in the hot summer!

DVS Hardscaper
11-18-2009, 08:09 PM
nothin like a beautifull tree with soil filled 4-feet above it's crown.......

greatinmulchbeds
11-19-2009, 12:24 PM
4 feet above its crown, how so?

YKClipper
11-19-2009, 04:09 PM
Greatinmulchbeds Ė Thanks for the compliment.:waving: I spent 25 plus years in landscape construction and maintenance before I decided 4 years ago to change my focus to hardscapes. Of course the crown is not covered with 4 foot of soil.




Remember:

Ground Effects NH
11-20-2009, 08:01 AM
Nice clean looking work, are you going with any rails for the patio?
Not a big fan of the material used on the house but the work looks spot on Thumbs Up

greatinmulchbeds
11-20-2009, 02:35 PM
yeah I was going to ask about rails....I can see havin a few beers and taking the plunge

YKClipper
11-20-2009, 03:37 PM
Nice clean looking work, are you going with any rails for the patio?
Not a big fan of the material used on the house but the work looks spot on Thumbs Up

yeah I was going to ask about rails....I can see havin a few beers and taking the plunge

Guys, (or Gals, or . . Whatever),

Regarding the veneer on the house: The customer is a friend of mine who owns a Kitchen Design business, and earlier in the season I had mentioned the desire to do some veneer work, having no idea he was building his home. At the end of last summer, he approached me with the idea. All the pieces are remnants from kitchen installations I pored over behind his building. It was a work of art for me, but I don't know if it blends well with the surroundings, i.e. the siding, the concrete steps, the white plastic railings, the brown composite decking, the 25 foot long gutter that transects what I considered to be the hot spot for the veneer. He added the gutter and railings after I was done, as well as the shutters, and it cluttered the finished project. He designed on the cuff, so the entire step area was completed after I finished. Funny, up close it looks beautiful, but that's because you are seeing primarily the stonework. I hope to get in there next year to install a lawn and a few well-placed plantings. Oh well, it was a great experience and prepared me for future jobs.

Regarding the wall: I tried to convince the owners to get railings. They decided not to. In retrospect, I probably should have covered my butt and put my recommendation in writing. I didn't put the patio in a couple of years ago. I saw them a month ago, and they were still quite pleased. I might contact them again to see if they have changed their minds. I know one of their concerns was blocking their view from the house. Their property looks out over the river, but if a guest fell off the patio, they probably would lose the property in a lawsuit, and I would probably be liable as well. Still, you both make good points.

Hey, do you have a suggestion on a railing I could install, that might be unobtrusive, but save a broken neck?

Thanks for the kind words. :waving:

Ground Effects NH
11-20-2009, 09:06 PM
Guys, (or Gals, or . . Whatever),

Regarding the wall: I tried to convince the owners to get railings. They decided not to. In retrospect, I probably should have covered my butt and put my recommendation in writing. I didn't put the patio in a couple of years ago. I saw them a month ago, and they were still quite pleased. I might contact them again to see if they have changed their minds. I know one of their concerns was blocking their view from the house. Their property looks out over the river, but if a guest fell off the patio, they probably would lose the property in a lawsuit, and I would probably be liable as well. Still, you both make good points.

Hey, do you have a suggestion on a railing I could install, that might be unobtrusive, but save a broken neck?

Thanks for the kind words. :waving:

Thanks for the extra photos, I was thinking on the line of this http://www.riversidecablerail.com/PortfolioGallery-C5.aspx you will still have a great view thru the fence itself. Please drum up some more post so I can PM you.:waving:

2low4NH
11-24-2009, 08:32 AM
you can usually run 35-40 sq a day. for a beginner if you are running a dry stack ledge stone you can do up to 100 sq a day with ease. depends on what kind of tricks you know and how efficient you are. i am a 4th generation mason and i do alot of natural stone as well as fake and real veneer. depending on the area you can get between 45-65 a sqft

DVS Hardscaper
11-24-2009, 12:47 PM
About the retaining wall:

The wall in the pics does not have a surcharged slope of any signifigance behind it. Thus, there is very little pressure (if any at all) bearing down on the block. The wall in the pic is what I informally and unofficially refer to as "Raised Patio Wall". The wall in the pic has no water drainage collection/routing issues, as a typical retaining wall does to some capacity. And again, the surcharge bearing down on that wall is minimum, as there is no slope being retained. Very much, not a true retaining wall application where common variables exist.


When I hear "retaining wall" what comes to mind is a wall at the bottom of a steep slope, thats been cut back, and is holding the side of a hill or mountain in place. And in some form water drainage must be addressed and contended with. Which is what I meant by "retaining walls are not to be taken lightly, and you better know what you're doing". Such as the wall in the link: http://www.outdoorfinishes.com/images/services/walls/retaining%20walls/Segmental-Retaining-Wall-lg.jpg


No need to get upset with replies to posts received. Kinda like if you go to the doctor and complain about a headache you've had for days, and you failed to mention that you've also felt dizzy and light headed. They can only treat you based on the information you supply. Same theory coincides with n internet message board.







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DVS Hardscaper
11-24-2009, 12:57 PM
To everyone reading, In terms of hand rails and safety rails where your client declines them:

Open your retaining wall contract, as well as your patio contract (where steps are involved) and copy and paste the following somewhere appropriate into your contract:

Hand Rails and / or safety rails are to be furnished and installed by others.


This way you've just cleared yourself from any liability and responsibility.




,

csl
11-24-2009, 03:45 PM
that patio on top of the "rataining wall" is 2000 square feet??? really???

2low4NH
11-24-2009, 05:49 PM
not a chance!!!! i dont think my house would fit on top of that

wurkn with amish
11-24-2009, 08:20 PM
EEEgads DVS! is that white retaining wall stone???

csl
11-24-2009, 09:06 PM
i think its painted, right??? there is a major mansion on a large lake out here that painted about 3,000 square feet of their retaining walls bright white and blue to match the house and roof. hideous!

DVS Hardscaper
11-24-2009, 10:24 PM
nope, it's not painted. It's actually a very light grey.