Time for a good ole which products are best argument

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

What i would install in my yard today.

PVC
1800s sam/prs
WM brass nozzles or RB plstc
RB rotators unless the angles are odd then MPs
5000 series rotors sam/prs
205s w/FC or DV 100s w/FC
RB ET or WM SL probably RB for me unless I need a wireless weather monitor then WM SL
Netafim for drip but RB for microspray

I'd give the baseline moisture sensor another shot as well.

[DanaMac]

C'mon. It's a day for talking cooking and football. Not sprinklers. :)

[American Irrig. Repair]

What i would install in my yard today.

PVC
1800s sam/prs
WM brass nozzles or RB plstc
RB rotators unless the angles are odd then MPs
5000 series rotors sam/prs
205s w/FC or DV 100s w/FC
RB ET or WM SL probably RB for me unless I need a wireless weather monitor then WM SL
Netafim for drip but RB for microspray

I'd give the baseline moisture sensor another shot as well.

When I installed my yard a couple years ago I installed...

1-1/4" Main, Hunter 1" PGV valves across the board (17 Zones). Hunter ICC, Mini-Click, Baseline Sensor (tucked inside the icc cabinet), Hunter PGV Mastervalve, 16awg single conductor wire.

Beds are a Mix of Risers / 6" pops / 12" pops on beds (hunter pro-sprays) Rain bird u-nozzles fixed, and rain bird vans where needed. I set the sprays 18" away from the house to keep from spraying / staining the rock (Hard Water here). Then I installed netafim next to the foundation to irrigate it, and the 18" that the sprays didnt get. I have the netafim foundation setup bypassed on the baseline sensor so It irrigates the area under the eaves regardless.

Lawn I installed straight mp rotators, on 4" pro-sprays (which I am about to retrofit to 6"). Have a few pro-sprays with regular nozzles where mp's wouldnt work.

Then I have Rainbird .25gpm pressure compensating bubblers on two seperate zones for my pecans, and oak trees (25 or so). One zone for the irrigated area, and one for the non-irrigated area so I can time them differently.

I did this system exactly how I wanted it and would probably do it again very similarly. When I put in the MP rotators here, I wasnt totally sold on them, and figured I might be changing them to pgp's if I didnt like them. I have been very pleased with their uniformity and mpr altogether.

This is my ideal system. I have been very happy with it.

[SoCalLandscapeMgmt]

New product I was introduced to last week. Spent almost an hour with the rep looking at the whole deal. Blows everybody else's central control and ET controllers out of the water.... ET Water Systems

www.etwater.com

I'm pitching them to a client right now. This product is right on the cutting edge.

[American Irrig. Repair]

New product I was introduced to last week. Spent almost an hour with the rep looking at the whole deal. Blows everybody else's central control and ET controllers out of the water.... ET Water Systems

www.etwater.com

I'm pitching them to a client right now. This product is right on the cutting edge.

I am still trying to understand why an ET controller is better than a great moisture sensor setup. I cant get my customers to schedule their clocks as it is, much less if It is more difficult.

A good moisture sensor setup will cut off irrigating regardless of whether the customer set the clock wrong, or rainfall (even in un-historic amounts).

Regardless, we must learn these items, or our industry will be eliminated due to waste...

I feel certain of it.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

New product I was introduced to last week. Spent almost an hour with the rep looking at the whole deal. Blows everybody else's central control and ET controllers out of the water.... ET Water Systems

www.etwater.com

I'm pitching them to a client right now. This product is right on the cutting edge.

I'm pretty familiar with those Dan. Give the whole scoop. Hosk considered them on a job that ended up being signatures. The Prez of the IA is on the advisory board (lives in fort Collins) and the VP of sales is in Denver. They also have a replacement panel for the RainMaster and use my pigtails. Why are they an improvement over RM or Calsense?

i do agree with American on moisture sensors.

[DanaMac]

I think I will go with:

toro 570 spray heads
all VAN style nozzles
toro Super 700 rotors or Rainbird T-Birds (tough choice)
Toro Flow-Pro valves
Orbit controller
Rain Jet compression pipe
And cut off risers leading to the heads

:) :) :)

[irrig8r]

New product I was introduced to last week. Spent almost an hour with the rep looking at the whole deal. Blows everybody else's central control and ET controllers out of the water.... ET Water Systems

www.etwater.com

I'm pitching them to a client right now. This product is right on the cutting edge.

Do you mean new to you or a new product line?

These guys have been around a couple of years. I ran into them at a smart controller seminar put on by the local water district in Spring of '07

The drawback is having no on-site weather station, just like Rain Birds ET Manager and Irritrol's Smart Dial.

And isn't there a subscription fee?

[ARGOS]

I think I will go with:

toro 570 spray heads
all VAN style nozzles
toro Super 700 rotors or Rainbird T-Birds (tough choice)
Toro Flow-Pro valves
Orbit controller
Rain Jet compression pipe
And cut off risers leading to the heads

:) :) :)

And the homeowner helping with the install to make sure it is done how they want it.

[Inspired]

New product I was introduced to last week. Spent almost an hour with the rep looking at the whole deal. Blows everybody else's central control and ET controllers out of the water.... ET Water Systems

www.etwater.com

I'm pitching them to a client right now. This product is right on the cutting edge.

I contacted them about a month ago, no return call from the rep.


Although I have very little experience, I'm leaning towards moisture sensors. If they are so trouble free and simple, why they haven't taken over the industry?

I thought I'd get my feet wet so I contacted this company.

http://www.acclima.com/

Anyone here have any experience with this company or the systems?

[Inspired]

What i would install in my yard today.

PVC
1800s sam/prs
WM brass nozzles or RB plstc
RB rotators unless the angles are odd then MPs
5000 series rotors sam/prs
205s w/FC or DV 100s w/FC
RB ET or WM SL probably RB for me unless I need a wireless weather monitor then WM SL
Netafim for drip but RB for microspray

I'd give the baseline moisture sensor another shot as well.

Ok Sir Fimco. I don't understand the 205 thing. What am I missing? Those valves are a major part of my repair business. I have to service them more then any other model.

[AI Inc]

And the homeowner helping with the install to make sure it is done how they want it.

NOw boys we are designing this so it wants to use 5 gpm more then what is available correct?

[Inspired]

NOw boys we are designing this so it wants to use 5 gpm more then what is available correct?

What do you mean "more then available"?

[AI Inc]

As in , skip the flow test, have no idea what ya have to work with and just nozzle everything with a 3 gpm nozzle.

[Bush_Baron]

I am still trying to understand why an ET controller is better than a great moisture sensor setup. I cant get my customers to schedule their clocks as it is, much less if It is more difficult.

A good moisture sensor setup will cut off irrigating regardless of whether the customer set the clock wrong, or rainfall (even in un-historic amounts).

Regardless, we must learn these items, or our industry will be eliminated due to waste...

I feel certain of it.
The TX rainbird rep loaned me a "Smrt-Y" sensor to try out. It has two components: a sensor that measures moisture and soil temp, and a module that is mounted beside and wired into the dumb controller. It actually adjusts watering time more or less depending on moisture and soil temp, and gives you a read out of how much it is watering. It uses the existing valve wiring to communicate to the module. I set the controller to water every day, 30 minutes per zone, and allow the "Smrt-Y" sensor to adjust the time up or down. My opinion: Not as good as a WM1200, but a good retrofit. Many of the "ET managers" simply interrupt the common wire to suspend watering. Careful placement of the "Smrt-Y" sensor is critical. I have been testing it for about 3 months now, and have been pleased with it.

[Inspired]

As in , skip the flow test, have no idea what ya have to work with and just nozzle everything with a 3 gpm nozzle.

I was joking along with you.... I love it when a maintenance guy or a home owner walks up to you at a supply house and asks, "How many heads can you put on one valve?"

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Ok Sir Fimco. I don't understand the 205 thing. What am I missing? Those valves are a major part of my repair business. I have to service them more then any other model.

More of them out there than any other valve. We will always be able to repair 205s. you want a valve that lasts 10-15 years. Long enough to avoid the warranty but short enough to keep service parts for.

[DanaMac]

More of them out there than any other valve. We will always be able to repair 205s. you want a valve that lasts 10-15 years. Long enough to avoid the warranty but short enough to keep service parts for.

Here we see more RB DVs, then Irritrol 2400 Jar Tops, then maybe the 205.

[1idejim]

More of them out there than any other valve. We will always be able to repair 205s. you want a valve that lasts 10-15 years. Long enough to avoid the warranty but short enough to keep service parts for.

pls explain the warranty part, i'm missing something.

thanks

jim

[Inspired]

More of them out there than any other valve. We will always be able to repair 205s. you want a valve that lasts 10-15 years. Long enough to avoid the warranty but short enough to keep service parts for.

True. There are certainly are a lot of them installed here as well. I think there will proably always be parts available for them because there is probably a huge market for 205 repair parts. On the one hand I'm thankful some many are out there, I've rebuilt a bizzion of them over the years. I used to install them myself in the beginning. Now I'd rather spec a WM or a DVF for an install. Granted the WM have had some issues the last couple years, but when I get a call where a valve is running wide open and will not shut down, usually it will be a 205. If I've installed it or maintain it, I feel like crap. I've gotten to the point of just replacing 205 diaframs every two years for my regular customers. Maybe our water here has something to do with it, I don't know. Maybe because the systems operate year round here. I know I see far fewer of them installed around here in the last 5 years. The newer one (the 2500?) seems to be much more dependable so far.

[Wet_Boots]

The Richdel R204 (now Irritrol 205) is almost at 40 years of service in the field, so there will probably always be more of them to repair than any other valve, so the fact that they are in need of service after a decade or so, shouldn't surprise anyone. Until copies of the W*M valves began to appear, there was no other valve you would see a knockoff of, other than a Richdel.

As to valves stuck open, if you always choose flow-control valves, you can throttle them down and gain a large measure of protection against stuck-open valves. I do employ the non-flow-control version of the 2400 jar-top from Irritrol, and they seem to behave themselves.

I still wish Irritrol/Toro could make the solenoids as well as Richdel did at their best.

[Inspired]

The diaframs (diaphragms?) in the 205s fail here in 3 - 5 years. Thats why I recommend my regular customers replace them at 2 year intervals. The diaframs with the plastic nuts were the worst, but I don't see them much anymore either. I rarely see one 10 years old or older that has not been rebuilt. I got into this business in 94' so maybe before that they were the berries.

I do use the flow control to keep the droplet size bigger and it does help them close more quickly. Most people don't adjust the flow control at all, so maybe the extra movement of the diafram over time has something to do with it. I sure was surprised to see you guys advocate that valve, though.

[Mike Leary]

I don't get it; could it be water quality? We must have 600 W*M valves in service up north and I can't remember when we last replaced a diaphragm.

[irritation]

I don't get it; could it be water quality? We must have 600 W*M valves in service up north and I can't remember when we last replaced a diaphragm.

I guess it's ok when the solenoids fail though.

diaphragm?
diafram?

[Mike Leary]

I guess it's ok when the solenoids fail though.

Agreed; a huge problem with the solenoids; seems like we are over it now that W*M has supplied us with the round solenoids with the white wires.

[Wet_Boots]

By the 1990's, the valve had passed from Richdel to Hardie, and since to Toro, and they didn't always get it as right as Richdel did. The plastic nut on the diaphragm assembly turned out to be the weak point of the design, but it was usually at least a decade or more before that problem showed up, if at all, and that was a service record one could work with for installations. Now that Toro has changed to a metal nut, that won't be a problem any more.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

i've gotten 10+ years out of the 205s in Dallas. If I was only getting 2 or so I'd definitely have abandoned them. That is really bad. I switched to the DVF as my replacement valve.

[Inspired]

Actually 3 - 5 years. Thats why I recommended changing diaframs after 2. Most of the guys that used the 205 probably switched to the 2500. Which so far seems to be a better valve. I switched to the WM 18000 in like 96' or 97' and then in 06' I switched like you to the DVF.

[irritation]

Damn, I would be one busy sob if I had to replace diaphrams every two years. Good thing Rainbird has a 5 year warranty.

[Kiril]

New product I was introduced to last week. Spent almost an hour with the rep looking at the whole deal. Blows everybody else's central control and ET controllers out of the water.... ET Water Systems

www.etwater.com

I'm pitching them to a client right now. This product is right on the cutting edge.

Not looking to start shiit here, but that controller is hardly cutting edge Dan, not even close.

Furthermore, it uses off-site collection of weather data to determine scheduling changes. We all know how well that worked with the RB ET Manager/dismal failure.

[Lite Headed]

By the 1990's, the valve had passed from Richdel to Hardie, and since to Toro, and they didn't always get it as right as Richdel did. The plastic nut on the diaphragm assembly turned out to be the weak point of the design, but it was usually at least a decade or more before that problem showed up, if at all, and that was a service record one could work with for installations. Now that Toro has changed to a metal nut, that won't be a problem any more.

You forgot the Black and Decker years! Remember...the lifetime warranty? :laugh:

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Not looking to start shiit here, but that controller is hardly cutting edge Dan, not even close.

Furthermore, it uses off-site collection of weather data to determine scheduling changes. We all know how well that worked with the RB ET Manager/dismal failure.

I don't see the off-site weather data as the major issue with the ET manager. It was just a bad way of managing an existing controller. I think off-site with a moisture sensor or at least a r/f sensor could be made effective..

[Wet_Boots]

You forgot the Black and Decker years! Remember...the lifetime warranty? :laugh:Whose life, I wonder. I think I still may have one of the R412 controller replacement panels with that eternal warranty. (in case anyone is wondering, that extreme warranty came about as a result of the failures of Richdel's advanced electromechanical controller, which was probably the first sprinkler controller to use the printed circuit board as a component of the rotary switch. It didn't have any solid-state electronics that needed a circuit board, so the design was for cost reasons)

[Kiril]

I don't see the off-site weather data as the major issue with the ET manager. It was just a bad way of managing an existing controller. I think off-site with a moisture sensor or at least a r/f sensor could be made effective..

If one looks at the data needed to calculate ET (with relative accuracy) using the Penman-Monteith method, it matters.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/X0490E/x0490e06.htm

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Can you summarize that for me in three sentences and explain why a back up r/f sensor or moisture sensor won't add an extra degree or watering accuracy?

[Kiril]

Can you summarize that for me in three sentences and explain why a back up r/f sensor or moisture sensor won't add an extra degree or watering accuracy?

Scroll to the bottom of the page and look for "Missing climatic data" and then go to the next chapter.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/X0490E/x0490e07.htm#TopOfPage

If you have on site SMS, you don't really need to calculate ET, which makes the off-site stuff a pointless waste of money. IMO, using SMS fits the water budget method better than ET calculations do, so the off-site ET calculations are once again, a waste of money.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

While we are on this subject Kiril I have another experiment I want to try with the baseline moisture sensor. Rather than just finding the best place to bury it I'm thinking of making a soil medium in a large container and putting it in their for observation. I can always adjust it to work best for my watering needs. If you placed a sensor in a soil medium what type of soil medium would give the most accurate moisture readings?

[Kiril]

While we are on this subject Kiril I have another experiment I want to try with the baseline moisture sensor. Rather than just finding the best place to bury it I'm thinking of making a soil medium in a large container and putting it in their for observation. I can always adjust it to work best for my watering needs. If you placed a sensor in a soil medium what type of soil medium would give the most accurate moisture readings?

I wouldn't recommend this. Even if you got an undisturbed pedon, it still will not adequately represent field conditions IMO unless you make it like a lysimeter.

[irrig8r]

I don't see the off-site weather data as the major issue with the ET manager. It was just a bad way of managing an existing controller. I think off-site with a moisture sensor or at least a r/f sensor could be made effective..


The term "off-site" is vague sometimes.

When I looked into the RB's ET Manager, the nearest weather station in their network was 300 miles away.

:dizzy: