WRONG WAY to do BUSINESS

[kjfaulk]

Had something happen to me about a month ago that really bothers me. I've been in the business for about 5 years, love what I do, my employees love there job, we have a good customer relationship and everything goes smooth.(Just about) Anyway, this new company comes along trying to take one of my accounts by really, really, really under bidding me (not saying there is anything wrong with a new company, because that is where will all began) but he just came out of no where and walked in to my commerical account and said that he could do the same job that I was doing for alot less. Now I know that we all have to make money but come on, I have NEVER and will NEVER ride around and try to take somebodies account, there is too much other work out there. Its one thing if you see the grass a foot tall and weeds taller than the bushes, but my company takes pride in all our work, everything we do is straight and manicured. Anyway wanted to see if it was just me that feels this way or is there some other LCO out there that think the same. By the way I managed to keep the account after about a months worth of trying to straighten all the confusion out. Any thoughts?

[strickdad]

its real cut throat here in nc.

[HAILE'S LAWN]

I've seen it happen over and over again!!!:mad:

[scottb]

I lost one this past month by being under bidded. Laughs on the new guy they added a nice ugly wooden privacy fence plus they use Chem lawn. Going to be a lot of work for 25.00 $

[P&J Lawncare]

I would NEVER EVER try to steal a account from another lco. I always ask new customers what company was doing their lawn and why did they want to change companies, I then call the old companies to make sure they understand why I am taking over the account so there is no bad blood between us. I am probably the biggest company in the area and I have maintained a very good relationship with most of the companies in this area because I go out of my way to help everyone out, I sharpen blades for 5 companies ($1.00 a blade) I loan machines and employees to some companies if they are in a pinch and I will give advice and help in anyway that I can and I have helped 2 friends start their own buisiness. I do this because it is better to be friends then to be enemies and there is enough buisiness for everyone to make money. I keep over 97% of my customers every year and I don't remember the last time someone stole a lawn from me. If everyone took a little time to help each other instead of cutting each others throats there would be alot more loyalty and money in this industry. Whenever I see a new lco in the area I always introduce myself and give them my number in case they need some advice or help in the future and 9 times out of 10 they will call and I will do what I can to help them. I also don't do yards that have small gates (we run 61 mowers) so whenever I get a call for a yard with a fence I tell the homeowner to call one of these companies and I tell them to mention my name and they will be treated well. We all benefit each other and thats how it should be.

[scottb]

Originally posted by P&J Lawncare
. We all benefit each other and thats how it should be. That is the way it should be. If I get a call from someone looking for a new lco the first thing I tell them is that If they are looking for cheaper prices their proably talking to the wrong guy. I will not stoop to the level of bidding to just cut a lot of grass. I will not under bid my comrades just to get a job. My DADDY raised me better than that!!

[fastrunner]

Just dont think that it is in North Carolina, these scrubs are everywere and makes me so mad! They steal my business like nothing.. The people here in Michigan dont give a **** that you are legal, professional, insured, yada yada,, all they want is a cheap price. Its SAD. All of us professional are all educated and know everything that it takes to maintain landscapes to the best ability and some scrub lowlife comes up and says, i will mow your lawn for cheaper than what the guy you paying now is... THAT JUST PISSES ME OFF! and the loser doesnt even know what I am getting paid.. It just happened to me again this year.. I was cutting this 3/4 acre lawn with trimming and blowing for $43.00 a mowing and this scrub comes and knocks on her door and says he will do it for $25.00. BULL!

[KirbysLawn]

I just wonder how he would know he could do it much cheaper than you unless he knew what you were charging. :confused:

[Brickman]

Yes that does make us all mad. NO NO NO it is not professional. But for me I have way too much work to do to worry about them. I always figure they will see the light one day and then it will be too late. But with this being year 7 for me it is a little different than for those in the first 3. You probably can't afford to lose one or two for this kind of BS.

I am with P&J. Man if there were more like you. I try to wave at most of the other LCOs in this area. I am learning to know some of the guys, and most every body will wave back. I have been given the finger by one or so, and others will look at my nice truck and equipment and then glare at me when they ride by with a Crapsman in the back of a trash truck.

[perfection lawn care]

I do not agree with someone coming in and stating they can do a better job and cheaper, this is just s***** buisness. There have been many times a new client will call and want a bid, if I show up to the property and it looks as if the nieborhood kid has been buchering it, and then find out it is a LCO then I will bid it.

I believe that whatever area you live in that if you have been in the buisness long enough you know who does good work and who doesn't, along with this is there pricing methods.

So when a new client is refered to me and I find out who is doing it currently, I will either tell them no thanks or know it is money in the bank!

I know a number of the large LCO in my area and they are all great people and will help out if needed in any way they can. So I also believe it is best if we all could just work together.

[Miller Mowing]

The competition for contracts is absolutely fierce around here! It certainly is every man for himself!! This is the main reason I have had major trouble getting contracts, is because you have to be sneaky and underbid someone else. I feel that you really shouldn't be this way, so it pretty much says I wont get more jobs. I just try my best to hang on to the ones I do have year after year.


Neal

[Scag48]

I don't go around stealing jobs by undercutting, I take them by simply stating that I can do a better job for the same price or higher. Most people will pay more for better quality, and believe me, I've got it covered because I have NO competition here that does a good job at all. State quality and be rewarded. It's that easy.

[P&J Lawncare]

There are mornings my shop has 4 companies in the drive waiting for blades or they need help with one of their mowers and I always take the time to help them all. I started out just like every one else (bad accounts,cheap rates,doing what no one else would do)and as time went by I reliazed that even though I had over 100 accounts I wasn't going to make it in this buisiness if I didn't change some things real quick so I decided to get rid of all my bad accounts (gave 45 accounts to different companies and explained the downfalls of each account to the lco's before they took them) and kept only the great accounts (about 60) and decided to only pursue the best commercial accounts, you know brand new complexes,million dollar buildings,large accounts the kind of buisinesses that appearance makes a difference to them and in time I got the ones that needed more than just a cut they needed your best effort every time, how many companies would double cut 60 acres just because the stripes were not up to par, we do and we will continue to do it because when the contracts are up for bid and our price is $3000.00 more per month than the scrubs bid there has to be something that seperates you from them and with us it's quality. I recently bid on a new hospital in the area and they received 80 bids and of the 80 bids we were one of the 5 highest bids but all it took to get the contract was one drive with the facility director over to one of our other properties so he could see what he would be getting if he hired us needless to say we were hired and all parties are happy. I guess what I am trying to say is find a niche in this buisiness and stick with it there are companies that do great work and there are companies that do sub par work, if you do great work then only pursue the customers that understand the difference. We will not do yards that are overgrown and just want it knocked down and we don't do yards that the customer doesn't care about because they might not care what it looks like but my reputation is on the line in every yard I do. There are customer's that want the cheapest and don't mind what it looks like so if you don't mind doing subpar work then target these customers in my experience they both pay the same (good work and subpar work) because good work takes longer but the pay is better and subpar work is less money but also less time so in the end both ways are profittable but only when good work does good accounts and subpar work does subpar accounts.

[Andrew S]

I try not to worry about what other contractors do,I concentrate on what I need to do every day!

You can not stop underpricing but you can try to reduce the chances of losing work by good customer relations, turning up on time etc -provide the good service always:cool: :cool:

[GarPA]

P&J...man you are right on...I'm a small relatively new operation .I sell quality and service. Last week landed 2 large commercial accounts and I was the highest bidder. They checked my references and were impressed with the proposal doc's.
I have a relative in who's been in this biz for about 3 years. Last week he got behind and asked me to help throw some mulch for a few hours. I asked him how much he was charging to mow this property...I forget the number but it was god awful low...I wouldn't even drive there for that price let alone open the doors...I told him he needs to start thinking like a customer...not always thinking like a lawn service provide...SELL QUALITY AND SERVICE!!!! I finally found a plumber whose rate is higher than most...but...he's dependable, prompt, and does good work...he's worth the extra dollars...its called peace of mind

[ADMowing]

If I was a business owner with property that needed to be serviced and someone came in and said that they could undercut the price I was paying, I'd be a little leary of doing business with that person. One -- it seems like an underhanded thing to do and I would not want to do business with someone who was underhanded. Two -- you can propose a price to someone without trying to hurt someone else. I would just tell the scrub that I was not taking bids right now and ask them for their name and phone number and tell them that when we do take bids, I'd contact them. I would also explain to them, as a business owner, that is how things are done and that they should pay attention to this rules of ethics.

If bidding is going on, we'll bid, but otherwise, we keep our noses out of other LCO's business. There are plenty of lawns here to service. If a customer is not happy and asks us for a price, we always inquire as to why the other LCO was "let go." If it is something that they might have a problem with us also, we tell them they need to find someone else. If it just a lack of communication on their part with the original LCO, and the customer will not go back to the original LCO, we do the lawn but specify that they need to talk to us if there is a problem right away and not let it become a larger problem. And... if the LCO is just doing a crappy job, the customer has a right to hire someone who will do a good job for them. Most of the time, the customer has not had lawn service and just wants to start having someone besides themselves do their lawn.

But undercutting is not something that we take kindly to and we inform our customers who have been given lower prices that "you get what you pay for." Eventually, the scrub will not be in business and the customer will be looking for us again -- or the scrub will raise their price to the same as ours or more the next year. And I think it is part of the definition of a "scrub" who would do that to other LCO's. Sorry, but there are too many lawns that need to be serviced in our area and there is no need to try to hurt other LCO's in the process of trying to build your own business. Advertise and get your own lawns -- don't go to our customers (who already have lawn service) and try to undercut our prices. Believe me, our customers have already been informed about the "scrub!!!" This is another way to thwart the scrub effort. Inform your customers in advance about them! Works GREAT!

Many, many people out there don't want to mow their own lawns anymore. They are working outrageous hours to pay for their houses and cars and want to have some time with their families when they are off from work. Market this!!! Get your lawns honestly and your customers and other local LCO's will respect you for it!

[cos]

Originally posted by scottb
I lost one this past month by being under bidded. Laughs on the new guy they added a nice ugly wooden privacy fence plus they use Chem lawn. Going to be a lot of work for 25.00 $

That's funny Scott. You got the last laugh without even having to do anything. The customer is probably going to give the guy alot of grief when he asks for more money. LOL

[LAWNGODFATHER]

You mean to tell me some one sold themselves over you?

Dud this is a job of good salemenship.

There are 3-5 really big lco's here that rotate commercial accounts.

How do they do that, when I find out I will be #6!!!!!! But in the mean time it is just a few dollars less as the lowest bid.

But we are talking $30,000 a year or more accounts.

How many customers will take a lower price? Ummmm alot!!!!!

Quit whinnning and go get more accounts because if you count only on your customer retension, I bid you farewell.

Damn guys it's a wonder how yall are still in biz with the etichs you use.

Yes I am not much different than you, but I do know where to draw the line.

[The Lawn Choupique]

While ya'll studying ethics over at the junior college durning the night class, I'll be bringing in the accounts. I wonder how ethic soup tasts?

[CSRA Landscaping]

You know, guys, it seems to me that you could at least have the courtesy of only going low enough to match a price, unless someone was charging something ridiculous like $15k for a $3k property and not getting the job done.

It all comes down to respect. How would you like to have someone treat you? You'd better believe that your reputation will precede you and if you have no scruples, you'll lose some nice opportunities. It may work for a while but it won't last.

[Krimick]

This is a problem that has popped up for me recently as well. Some people at a few of my commercial accounts have told me that a person came to their door to let them know that he could take over the contract at a much lower price. I assume that if he went to a few, he went to them all!

For the most part this has backfired on him. Most of the people see this as an inappropriate way of doing business. I haven't lost anything yet but I know eventually somone will switch just to try it out. I know who the guy is and realize he won't be around long term, but he's being quite a d*ck right now!

[Brickman]

See if there is a way to turn a guy like this into the city for license, or what ever you can find.
There is a LCO that I am planning on turning in for landscaping without a license because I feel that some of his business dealings with me were less than professional.
Also a home owner that I am going to turn in because of not having a back flow preventer on their sprinkler system, they ticked me off. I got along good with the guys wife, but he was a real jerk. He is a minority and a lawyer, and thinks he can get away with it. The city is real picky about their back flow preventers. So this will cost him.

[nu83]

What does being as minority and a lawyer have to do with anything? Don't turn him in, it doesn't do you any good. Don't carry the burden with you, forget about it and move forward.

[Brickman]

The only thing that being a minority lawyer has done is I feel it has given him an attitude. But you are right about movin on. I just felt that it was personal. But being the incident was LATE Friday eve may have more to do with my attitude than anything.

[Hawkeye5]

In every business where accounts are obtained through bidding there are low-ballers. There is a trade-off between price and quality service, this trade-off is value. While some customers will only consider price, the majority want the best job for the $ they expend, or value. Know your walk-away price and offer value. You will never get the price shopper, but why worry about them? Let some other guy loose the money and have the headache. I recently had a plumber do some work for me. They had a brochure which (I thought) explained the overhead and expenses in a way the homeowner could see the hidden costs that exist for any service business and that go into determining the hourly rate. I intend to use the same idea in the future brochures. JD

[LawnLad]

What's worse than a low bidder that doesn't know his own costs? The low bidder that doesn't care that he left 20% on the table.

Quality, value, professionalism, etc. should be the selling points. Let price speak for it self. Be the low bidder - but don't just shoot the lowest price possible for the sake of low price and expect people to buy on it. Furthermore, try to charge as much as you can, and still remain the low bidder. As in, get right underneath the next lowest guy.

I think there was a thread on this not too far back.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28446&highlight=Rebirth+of+ethics

[David Haggerty]

It's kind of interesting how some can weave the word ethics into the same paragraph about price fixing!

What about the customers interests?

YESTERDAY I spied a scumbag LCO on one of my properties. He was grinning and talking to the maintenance supervisor and waving a piece of paper around.

Later I asked the supervisor "You're not thinking of hiring that guy are you?" He asked me, "Why?"
I said, "Because he thinks I leave a little too much money on the table, and he likes to swoop in, rip off the maintenance budget and leave me trying to maintain the lawn on what's left!"

He said, "We just hired him last year to prune the trees, for $600 it's a pretty good deal."
I said "I pruned the trees last year! I saw where someone had been attempting to prune, clipping a few twigs, so I came in and took off a whole trailer load of limbs!"
He didn't say anything more, maybe because his teeth were clenched too tight.

Looking after my customers interests is looking out for my interests. Coming to a "pricing agreement" with other LCOs? I don't THINK so!

Dave

[65hoss]

Originally posted by LAWNGODFATHER

Dud this is a job of good salemenship.


Salesmanship is the key. Hello people! Wake up! You don't sell it one time and expect it to always take care of itself. You have to sell yourself to the customer everytime you show up. Whether they are standing there or not. Build customer relationships.

[CSRA Landscaping]

Dave, you're right. What I'm talk about here isn't price fixing. What I'm talking about is deliberately undercutting another LCO just for the sake of getting the work, knowing that's the price they're charging. I wouldn't charge $400 for a patch job that I saw one time - it was done with rye seed! Talk about a rip-off!

Again, if there's a company that's charging a ridiculous amount, like 5x the actual value of the job, that's an exception. The key is to bring value to your customer, not getting all that you can. We need a price that both I and the customer can live with.

[kjfaulk]

The LCO company that tried to take the account bidded it so low that I told the Manager that there was no way that this quy can make any money. Because the account is one that includes everything, from grass cutting, fertilizer, rye grass in the winter, pre-emergence and mulch. The price that he gave was so low that I told her that he would loose money just by cutting., not to mention all the extra stuff he has to do during the year. Some people I just cant figure out. The only reason I kept the account I think was because like one of you other LCO mentioned before, you have got to cont. keep selling the account. If your customer sees you every week and talks to you, you can plan on keeping the account for a long,long time.
Kevin

[sgtgm5]

I hate to say this but if they can cut the cost and make a profit,,,,,,,,,Then more power to them.......Sometimes we forget were we started from and then we complain when we are the ones who are bought out. The only thing I say is if they feel that they can use them and get the quality that you had provided, and they might, then theres nothing we can do but keep diven on.

[leaflawnandlimb]

I once had another lco going around to my accounts and telling my customers that I sold out and he was the new guy taking over my biz. and trying to get them to sign a contract with him.

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by sgtgm5
I hate to say this but if they can cut the cost and make a profit,,,,,,,,,Then more power to them.......

The problem is they don't, they close, and the bidding starts all over again. The landscape never get adjusted to a sound program, grass is negletedm and the place looks like ****.

Now you want to bid to fix this **** up, them...having heard the low figures from the others will looks at a sensible bid and faint. This is why I avoid the revolving door of commercial lawn care. Here is a photo from our last exit interview:

http://www.unionturf.com/rays/hmrbutt.jpg

[HOMER]

Dang Ray, you weren't supposed to put that picture on the internet!

Ditto on the stolen account, had one go 2 weeks ago that I've had for 4 years. Scrub ass bunch comes in, asks if they ever bid it out, hand the manager a bid for less than mine and presto-scrubbo.........they got it.

Problem is I find out they got it by pulling up to cut the place. Sent letter to manager explaining my position.....no response.

Found out this same bunch of desperate A-holes has been to another account of mine literally harrassing the store manager. She ain't givin' it up! They can't take this one from me. What's the difference in the two you ask? The one they stole had a new manager come in that I had not taken the time to meet.......he didn't know me from Adam. The other one knows me well and also knows that I've put up with way more than I should concerning payments.

I'm pretty sure these guys have been to all of mine, they want everything they can get and will lowball and lie to get it. Found out today they just lost another apartment complex so they may be even more desperate now! I've put the word out on the street with everyone I come in contact with. One day they'll need help and help won't find them.

The thing everyone seems to forget is how personal this gets. If you build your business to a point where all your bills can be paid, your making a little extra and not trying to hog every account then life is good and everybody is happy. Along comes the A team and takes away your car payment in a matter of minutes! If the property was up for bid then it's fair game, plain and simple. May the best man win. If the property isn't up for a bid and it's being maintained on a regular basis and the job is being done the proper way............stay the hell away from it!!!!!!!!!:blob3: Yes.......that is the wrong way to do business and people get really pissed about it......ask me how pissed. I called the A-team and asked them what they were doing.....they assured me they weren't soliciting my accounts..ya right. :rolleyes: That's the second one they got, the first one they left $100.00 a month sitting on the table and they're doing more work than I was!

I bid on a new place today. Stayed up till midnight last night working it up, making it look good and professional. Printed the proposal out, made and envelope and sealed it. On the way to the property this morning I get a call from a friend who just happened to find out what another company bid. Mine was higher. I could have easily went home and changed the numbers around so I would be lower cause I really had the upper hand with this info. I thought about what happened to me the other day and as bad as I need this account to make up for lost revenue I turned it in just like it was.

I refuse to be a scrub. I had an opportunity that the A-team would have jumped on. I'll be damned if I'll lower my standards to match them. If I get it then it was meant to be and it'll make up for the losses, if I don't then the other guy wins.........that's how it should be. One thing I did learn though was this other guy bids fairly and properly to, I was $320.00 higher per year than he was. $26.66 a month. I now know where my real competition is.

Play fair and sleep good.

[BLL]

First, thisis a very finicky system we work in. What people dont understand is that when these lowballers come in the pricing goes down(no matter how good of work you do) adn then everybody drops there prices, but in order to make any money the jobs become rushed and appear $*!*y. then everybody gets pissed off. This is why lowballers are no good its not that they take al the work away its that they destry the whole program that is working excellent now. What they dont understand is that as it is now most of us have a unspoken pack to be reasonable if 10 people bid on a job chances are everybody is gonna be between 5 $ of each other (smal yard) so we sell ourselves by service. Newbies (lowballers also ) sell price (no good).

Second has anybody ever put out a letter to current customers explaining the situation and informing them of teh risks involved with going with a lowballer or scrub. Seeems lieka good idea but is it to forward?

[ADMowing]

BLL --

No it isn't too forward to educate your customers about scrubs. In our area, new LCO's are popping up all the time (just about now), but in August they drop off like flies because they didn't realize how hot it is and how hard the work can be.

We let customers know that when someone comes and underbids us, they might pay them for a few months and never see them again. In the meantime, we are going to get new accounts and you will be out a QUALITY and RELIABLE lawn service. We tell our customers how long we've been in business (6 years) and we're not going anywhere. We've got money and sweat invested into our business. These things benefit the customer. When you mow with a quality machine and not a push mower that scalps your grass, you'll see the difference.

So, YES, it is appropriate and appreciated by the customer to inform them!!!

[BLL]

Thats how i feel exactly even thoug i have only been in it for 4 years im not going anywheer either and i agree with yu completly. Just wondered how everybody else felt.

[ADMowing]

Hey BLL --

You don't need to be worried about offending your customers 'cause they will know that you care about them when you inform them about deadbeat scrubs. You are actually saving them from lots of headaches. That was my point. I wasn't flaming or anything.

I get really upset -- and this time of year we are dealing with start up scrubs. We had a customer get approached and she refused because we had already informed her. She was really happy that we had warned her. It actually gave her fuel to use against them. In August, people will be crying for lawn service down here and all the scrubs that ran away with their customers' money will be sittin' in front of the tv by the air conditioner. It really frustrates us, so I have a tendancy to respond about this topic way too forcefully. Sorry! Hope you understood where I was coming from. These types of people make our industry look very bad and that is another reason to warn customers.

Four years, to me, is an established business. I even respect start ups who are sincere, research the market, do quality work and are respectful of other LCO's. There are too many lawns out there to service and no one needs to "steal" other LCO's business by lowballing!

We are more than willing to work with other LCO's in our area. We don't take another LCO's business if the customer is having a problem with an LCO that they would have with us also. We tell them to talk it over with their LCO and rectify the problem 'cause it is a lawn care problem they will have with all of us. If the LCO is not doing a good job and the customer is unhappy for that reason, the customer has a right to look for better service. The customer usually finds that we charge more for our service than the last LCO and if they REALLY want good service and just aren't price shopping, they will take us.

I talk about LCO's using push mowers, but actually if a person calls us and needs someone like that and we know of a reputable LCO in the area who uses a push mower, we will refer them. We refer tree services, painters, Chemlawn, etc... to our customers if they ask. We also know a few NOT to refer because they haven't been good to our customers. So, we are in a good business for passing around information. You're goin' ta laugh, but in one mobile home park, there are three LCO's and we all talk to each other about what customers do NOT pay and who to stay away from. It makes people tow the mark or they don't get lawn service.

Sorry for the long post. I didn't want you to think I was being mean! Well, I might be -- but my hostility is toward the scrubs!

I notice that I usually write long posts... hope ya'll forgive me!

[BLL]

no i understood what you meant and i agree completly. I try to offer that quality service like you talk about and often have to persuade cistomers as to why they shoudl chose me. Needles to say they are often more then thankful they did(man people love straight defined stripes!!!!!!). If there were more people that ran business like this the industry woudl grwo in better ways then lots of people doing bad work!