A Lawn Fixit Puzzle

[GroundKprs]

Mr. T. has a 2.5 K ft² lawn area at the end of his drive, with 6 huge oaks in that area. Grass is almost all Poa annua (annual bluegrass). Suddenly in second week of Aug, most of the annual blue dies off - half of area is just dead grass, rest has thin grass, with a lot of dead in it.

Mr. T. comes out and asks what do we do to fix it. What is the best solution? For the rest of the 12 years I have done this site, this area just thinned out during the summer, still looked good from the drive. Of course, with all the trees, there is dense shade, and the soil is very heavy, but does drain fairly well.

How would you fix this problem (and no fair cutting down the trees)? Usual prize, if someone gets it right. But, ask Jodi, I'm awfully slow in paying off. :D My solution on Tuesday night.

[ohiolawnguy]

well if were gonna do it right,
(you say i can't cut down the trees)
then i say let's prune the trees. (even if very lightly. anything to get a little more sun there.) Then you have 2 options, i figure.

1. you could kill of all grass. till up soil add better compost or nice topsoil, grade and use a shade seed or sod.(they have shade varieties of sod available). all of this is drastic though.

if customer doesn't allow me either of those options-$$$$$$, then i say we do the final option.

2. aerate and overseed, or seeder slicer depending on how compacted soil is(maybe both). possibly topdress with sone nice soil. continue to aerate/overseed, or seeder slice at least ever other year(use a preemergent on years you don't overseed), but preferably yearly.


first option costs a lot.

Second option cheaper, and has made many customers happy with regards to expense and results. (But, I still think you should try to prune the trees a little if you can persuade them to.)

[MikeLT1Z28]

plant fescue or a ground cover. better yet, give him a 2500 sq ft parking area or workshop! lol

[strickdad]

were gonna install sod!!!

[Tony Harrell]

"Huge Oaks", sounds like sunshine is needed. Prune the trees.

[lawnstudent]

Possible solution, assuming the customer still wants grass:

1) Soil test - and modify the pH to 6.8
2) Trim a few branches out of those oaks. Any additional light would help.
3) Water - competition for water with tree roots. Can you add irregation to this area?
4) Overseed or reseed with fine fescues (creeping red fescue, chewings fescue, hard fesue, etc).
5) Set your mower higher under those trees and cut at a longer length.
6) Reduce the fertilizer in this area to 1 - 2 lbs N/M/yr.
7) Keep the debris picked up in this area (small branches and leaves)

jim

[leeslawncare]

soil test get ph.set (lime) seed with shade mix avalible at lesco.Kinda pricey but it works .It will grow up the side of a oak tree!! (no kidding)Areate an fert.I did it to some properties last fall like what you decribed an the actually stripe now b-4 they were patches of grass an bare spots not anymore!

[GroundKprs]

Don't look up at the trees, the answer lays right on the ground.

Trees are pruned professionally every 3-4 years, along with the other 12 to 15 trees on site, so more tree work is unnecessary and debris is never a problem.

[GroundKprs]

This is for cool season grass maintenance....

Sodding in the shade will guarantee you future repair. Sod is grown in a wide open sunny field. How could you grow shade tolerant sod under trees, and efficiently harvest it? So your sod will all be dead within 2 years.

Even in sunny area use, seed is the much preferred course. The major reason is choice: maybe some markets have a great choice of sod farms, here we have 3. But even if your area has 2 dozen, I'll have choice of thousands if I am using seed. (Includes the various combos from seed functional in this area.)

And there is also the consideration of how the sod is grown, and where it's transplanted. The sod farmer wants his crop to grow to marketable state as soon as possible, and he wants his product to look good. So he provides a prime growing medium for his product (and also gives it premium care). Then where is this sod placed? Right, around the house or office with all the subsoil dredged up by developer and builder. And poor sod has to try to survive in that - like going from steak to bread crumbs.

Now if you seeded, no matter what the seed, that seed is just starting it's life. If it's growing in subsoil, it doesn't know anything different, and it grows as best it can. Any wonder that the people, who sod the front yard and seed the back, like their back yard better for years? Usually takes the sod around 5 years to adapt to the new growing medium.

Remember, this is for C3 grasses. There are some C4 grasses that must be sodded.

[leeslawncare]

Was this a question or a quiz?iIf it was a quiz how did i score?LOL

[Russ]

Lets:
1. Check PH
2. Core aerate like mad
3. Reseed with Supina blue grass (as per Zack Reicher)
4. Pre-M app late summer or early fall for the poa annua
5. Primo Apps to the supina next year
6. Check for poa activity very early next year while the supina is still dormant
If that doesn't work, get a gallon of turf paint and a couple hundred Pachysandra.

[heygrassman]

Is there a pest problem?

What are the results of the soil sample?

[1MajorTom]

Quote: Mr. T. comes out and asks what do we do to fix it.


First of all, ole B.A. (Bad Attitude) would not ask for your help. He would call Hannibal, who would get in touch with Faceman who then in turn would break Murdock out of the mental facility. The A Team would then put their heads together, and your assistance would not be needed. :laugh:

Poa Annua thrives on compaction. I do not recommend aeration. I believe you need to cut it short. The shorter the better. Poa annua can thrive in sun or shade. But come August because of the temps and lack of water, it goes into a resting stage. I would suggest some irrigation, but the irrigation must be properly monitored.

As Hannibal would always say, "I like it when a plan comes together."

[GroundKprs]

I'll give you an E for effort, leeslawncare - and your effort is so much more than my answer. That's for this quiz, lee.

And don't gloat too much about your great Lesco shade mix until two years after planting, and especially 5 years after planting. Time is the test with any turf in any location.

And time is involved in my answer. I want something that will last. You can have grass in any shade by reseeding every year. Young grass will always do well in starting to grow, it's when it gets to the survival mode that it finds the poor conditions and thins out.

[leeslawncare]

Thanks .I'll just crawl back in my hole an pretend like i know what i'am talking about :)

[GroundKprs]

Oh, Lord, Jodi. Knew I should have used Mr. X, or Mr. Z. Was a great show, no? :blob2:

And I'll add a dozen donuts to your tab, great thinking. But what exactly do you propose to client?

[GroundKprs]

Heygrassman, soil testing is a very useful task in most areas. However, here I hardly ever soil test. Our soils are all ideal for grass, 6.2 to 6.6. If a quick Kelway meter probe shows a variance from this, then we'll do a real soil test.

Reread all my info. This is annual blue failing in August.

Bye for now. Gotta go fix sister-in-law's 'puter, then to work.

[scottb]

I can hear it now Mr. T say's Hey fool what did yo do to my lawn you better call 1 800 Call Collect to save money you gonna need it.

[ohiolawnguy]

actually, we'have used the shade sod in limited areas, and so far no repairs have been necessary.(about 2 years now at one house)

but, now that all my original plans have been scrapped, let me see if i can rework the plan.

1. Zoysia sprigs-prefers sun, but will slowly spread under shady conditions.(of course now we will have the grass brown out from late fall to the middle of spring) I absolutely hate zoysia BTW, but it does have a few purposes up here.

2. put a big old bed there with many types of perennials, flowers, etc.

3. just paint the grass in late july. stupid idea, but if it keeps the customer happy, so be it.

4. sell the house and find somewhere else to live-LOL :blob3:

Question, do we have a root problem at the surface of the ground, or are the roots of the trees not an issue?

Also, could we be informed of the current PH of the soil?

[GroundKprs]

The answer is very, very simple. Knowledge of some turfgrass science would be helpful, but looking too deep will get you lost. Definitely knowledge of Poa annua will help you, but think simple, simple, and then simpler. We have to work IN NATURE, not ON IT.

There is a little surface rooting - heavy soil, so roots come up to breathe. But roots are not a problem. Think I'll be onsite Monday; will get you a pH reading then.

To work now, her 'puter at least is working, but as a cripple, LOL.

[lawnstudent]

OK! Second shot assuming you want to keep a high maintenece lawn with poa annua. Now Poa Anuua is a winter annual. It has very shallow roots and likes to be kept wet. It does not tolerate heat and dry weather well like you have in July and early August. It will go dormant or die in the heat and drought. Also disease prone when stressed by heat and drought. Long term solution is water that Poa Annua. Water daily in the heat. Syringing, watering to cool this grass is even recommended. Fungicide apps are recommended if you have disease. Fertility requirements are high. So fert the **** out of this high maintenece lawn that must be constatntly watered in the heat. (or just re-seed with a fine fescue).

jim

[GroundKprs]

Gonna restate all you need to solve this one. And the answer definitely lies in the last line ... simplicity.

"Mr. T. has a 2.5 K ft² lawn area at the end of his drive, with 6 huge oaks in that area. Grass is almost all Poa annua (annual bluegrass). Suddenly in second week of Aug, most of the annual blue dies off - half of area is just dead grass, rest has thin grass, with a lot of dead in it".
Mr. T. comes out and asks what do we do to fix it. What is the best solution? For the rest of the 12 years I have done this site, this area just thinned out during the summer, still looked good from the drive. Of course, with all the trees, there is dense shade, and the soil is very heavy, but does drain fairly well."

"Don't look up at the trees, the answer lays right on the ground."

"And time is involved in my answer."

"But what exactly do you propose to client?"

".......think simple, simple, and then simpler. We have to work IN NATURE, not ON IT."

[ohiolawnguy]

the last line huh? hmmmm. stop the water from draining so well by making some type of mound to restrict the runoff? that's the last idea i have.
:)

[KirbysLawn]

Water.

[wmsland]

Are you treating the Poa annua as a turf grass or as an annual grassy weed. If you are treating it as a weed and since it produces seed rather freely and abundantly, then get on a program of pre and post emergent herbicides labeled for the control of Poa annua.

[lawnstudent]

GroundKprs writes:

"...the answer lays right on the ground."

Poa Anuua is a proficient seeder. Seed is there just lying on the ground!


"And time is involved in my answer."

Wait. Wait for the heat to subside and the fall rains. Poa Annua is a winter annual and the seeds will germinate in fall, reseeding the the 2.5K ft area.

".......think simple, simple, and then simpler. We have to work IN NATURE, not ON IT."

Do nothing and wait. It will come back. Always has. Always will!

jim

[GroundKprs]

Didn't think that was available here. Saw the test plots at Mich. State a few years ago, but I thought <a href="http://www.css.msu.edu/css232/Schrad.html">Their Results</a> were not so hot. Web search shows <a href="http://www.ampacseed.com/">Ampac Seed Company</a> is supposed to sell it, but nothing on their website.

Is Zac really promoting Poa supina now? If so, where does it come from? Is a European source only place to go? The original idea was that a grass that grows well on cowpaths would make a great sports turf. But it turned out to be too much hassle to maintain as that use, even though Europeans have been using it for years. And it is so prostrate, didn't think there would be any use in ornamental turf.

[lawnstudent]

P.S.

Maybe you want to put down a lttle starter fert to help that Poa Annua seed come fall. This is optional and may not meet your definition of: "We have to work IN NATURE, not ON IT."

jim

[1MajorTom]

But what exactly do you propose to client?

My proposal to Mr. T would be:

When the poa annua goes into its resting stage when the heat hits, another grass needs to be there to take over.
That grass would be bermuda. Bermuda thrives in the same conditions that poa annua begins to fail.
So Bermuda needs to be planted there.

You said time was involved which it is here.
We are just letting nature take its course by having the right grasses planted for when different weather conditions occur.

[ProSeasons]

:confused: Is it something to do with the acorns? Remove them, mabye? Do they secrete something detrimental to growing conditions, excessive pH, perhaps. Would natural removal (i.e. grazing of various herbivours) help if you would recreate that scenario?

[tremor]

This is a fun one isn't it?

Not all Poa Annua behaves like an annual. On some of the old golf courses around here, we have researches plucking well behaved "PERENNIAL" poa in august around here for use in breeding programs. I'd gather that isn't the nature of the stand we're dealing with here & a putting green program isn't in the budget.

Assuming our test sample is NOT infested with either insects or disease and is mearly fading from the heat of summer, we must also assume that syringeing is out of the question too.

So... do nothing outside of a little shot of starter fertilizer. Since in 2-3 weeks, the Poa will reseed itself all by itself.
If you must, spread the starter in the presence of the property manager. Don't let on how simple the solution is either. They'll think you're the Grass God soon enough.

Steve

[GroundKprs]

WHOA! Lawnstudent wins. Snuck his answer in last night between my two posts.

I told Mr.T., "We just wait 4-6 weeks. Let nature redo what it has done so well for years." Simple, no?

More detail later.

[ProSeasons]

Way to go Lawnstudent! Jim, give us some more!!! Like SpongeBob says..."I'm ready, I'm ready ":D

[RayoVac]

GroundKprs,

I have no real input for your scenario... Am a homeowner lucky to enough to have something to mow!!! :D

Just wanted to say Hello... small world!! I work in South Bend, and live in Bremen.

Howdy!

RayoVac

[lawnstudent]

Great problem Jim! Really made you think. Thanks for not making me wait until Tuesday. It was killing me not knowing if I had the answer right or not.

jim

If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence then it must that Poa Annua under those old Oak trees near the end of Sept.

[GroundKprs]

Poa annua (annual bluegrass) is, in many cases, not a true annual. It is a weakly rooted weed grass in most settings. Because of poor rooting, it is very susceptable to drought, heat, summer patch, and some other diseases. So it does often die out in late July, early Aug. However, given the right conditions for this plant, it can live through the summer, and actually be considered a perennial grass in some areas. As Tremor stated, research over the last several years has been directed at keeping annual blue alive in golf courses, instead of trying to keep it out of them; it is one of the worst curses of many course supers.

And note that over 11 (instead of 12, I just checked) years this only happened once on this site. It was some anomoly - temp jump, sudden prime disease environment, or ??, that I missed. If it happens again, I will be ready to try to identify the cause so it can be anticipated in the future.

My purpose in this quiz was to show that no matter what great tools and knowledge we have, we can't forget to look at what nature is doing itself. And don't try to improve on it, just because we think we can, if nature is doing a good job.

I will try to get pics of the location, and post on this thread. I would not expect any turfgrass to survive here - one of those places that if you want grass, you have to seed once or twice a year, every year. But after watching it just thin a little in the summer for 5-6 years, I realized that nature had planted the ideal ground cover (turf type) for this situation. And just waiting a few weeks for existing seeds to germinate was the best long term fix for this fluke dieout.

The weak plants in nature are generally prolific seeders, so the species can survive. And annual blue is one hardy %#*&!@* survivor. Thousands of hours and 100s of thou of $$$ spent fighting it each year on golf courses, and it was doing a great job in this situation. Why try to improve just because it died once??

BTW, this is my most complimented lawn, and it is probably about 20% Poa annua, 40% Poa trivialis (rough bluegrass, another obnoxious weed grass), and only 40% desireable bluegrasses. The client is aware that these two weeds are very susceptable to summer damage, but agrees that there is no sense worrying about it unless something drastic happens. (And one year we were just a couple more days of heat & humidity away from losing them.) Even with excessive fungicide treatments, it would be a lie to guarantee survival.

I have always told all my clients that I am working WITH nature, and the single firm rule of nature is that things will change.

lawnstudent, I owe you and your guest a dinner, if you ever get to South Bend, or I get up there. But like I said, Jodi's been waiting for hers and Matt's for months. LOL.

[tremor]

Jim,

That was a cool brain teaser with or without a prize. I hope you continue to post creative quizzes such as this.

Here in Metro NY we have the countries oldest Golf Course (St. Andrews, Yonkers et al) & as such, we see some of the less common Poa Annua problems before other areas are affected. There are also more courses per square mile than just about anywhere else, so it's not at all uncommon to find pest problems that usually only affect golf-turf creeping into residential lawns. In addition to the more common turf pests, Poa Annua is often affected by Anthracnose (right now!), Hyperodes Weevil (August would be late), & the Black Turfgrass Ataenius ("could" be August).

Given the symptoms you described, I'd start a monitoring program this summer for the "Black Turfgrass Ataenius" (BTA). These are very small Coleoptera Beetles that harm Poa especially where organic matter is high. BTA are so small they often go overlooked. It takes many to cause damage.

http://iaa.umd.edu/umturf/Insects/Black_Turfgrass_Ataenius.html

You may be able to begin scouting for BTA adults now.
http://www.lawnandlandscape.com/features/feature.asp?ID=145&SubCatID=138&CatID=21

They are capable of multiple generations in many areas.
http://www.lawnandlandscape.com/features/feature.asp?ID=157&SubCatID=138&CatID=21

More.
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/uwturf/pdf/btapop.pdf

If the client is watering havily, Poa's been known to pick up Pythium Root Rot too. This is a pretty rare occurence for home lawns & also, in most cases, not an economically feasible item to treat for.

Even if you do discover this or some other pest, it would be to satisfy the curiosity only. To prevent 2-3 weeks of damage for a single occurence in over 10 years would be rather wasteful. But you never can tell when mother nature will deal us a new major turf problem. While it may just be for fun right now, knowlege of new pests can also offer us a competetive advantage if conditions allow. Sometime just knowing gives us the confidence to instill a sense of trust in the cosumers eyes that would otherwise be hard to achieve. Not for the economic value, just for the confidence we begin to exude.

Steve

[1MajorTom]

That was a cool brain teaser with or without a prize. I hope you continue to post creative quizzes such as this.

Ditto. :)