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View Full Version : how to keep st augustine from going into neighbors bermuda


cpt87gn
12-05-2009, 07:26 PM
im thinking about installing st augustine sod on my house which iv never done before but i live in a new subdivision and everybody has bermuda how do i keep it from going into the 2 neighbors lawn the back yard is no problem because of the wood fence

and what should i do should i rent a sod cutter should i put down somekind of soil down before the sod and some starter fertilizer thank you for the help

CkLandscapingOrlando
12-05-2009, 07:47 PM
The problem is how to keep the bermuda out of the aug. There is no chemical to kill burmuda that you can get but roundup and that kills every thing. Your only chance is to run sometype of boarder along the whole property line. Even then you'll probly have issues. Bermuda seeds real bad and the wind, rain, and mower will spread that crap like crazy

ALC-GregH
12-05-2009, 07:48 PM
I think you might have it backwards. You might be better off having Bermuda grass. That stuff will spread under driveways, a fence sure isn't going to stop it.

ALC-GregH
12-05-2009, 07:50 PM
The problem is how to keep the bermuda out of the aug. There is no chemical to kill burmuda that you can get but roundup and that kills every thing. Your only chance is to run sometype of boarder along the whole property line. Even then you'll probly have issues. Bermuda seeds real bad and the wind, rain, and mower will spread that crap like crazy

I disagree. Do some more research and you'll find your incorrect.

CkLandscapingOrlando
12-05-2009, 07:59 PM
Your right. I meant that could be sprayed on the Aug with no ill effect. My point is that any thing you use to control it will hurt the aug. At least so say's every spray company in central florida that I've posed this question to.

jtk47
12-05-2009, 09:16 PM
i was told that tenacity has been shown to knock back bermuda in st. augustine. but i believe it can only be used on sod farms, not sure about this. Might want to check into it. But my advice, if u live around bermuda your going to have a heck of a time keeping it out of your yard as aggressive as it is (some studies say it can spread over 6 feet a year). So i would plant it. Zoysia might be a possible if your totally against bermuda because of how thick the grass grows.

CkLandscapingOrlando
12-05-2009, 09:59 PM
Yea I'm sure the sod farms have access to something. But so far as IFAS and every spray tech I've talked to theres nothing they can spray that they know of. I've hit yards 3 times with gly on a 2 week cycle before a re-sod and still had it coming up in spots. Mixed at 8oz per 3 gal

ed2hess
12-05-2009, 10:06 PM
Can't image why you would want to go against the bermuda.......can't keep them out of each other I have tried to do it for one customer. You can spray the St. Augustine with msma every time it gets into the bermuda but.......you will have to do it over and over. Don'e try to put a border in, that looks ugly and it will go under the cedar fences.

andyslawncare
12-05-2009, 10:59 PM
fencing won't do anything but waste your money - use a sod cutter or shovel to make a border between the properties and keep it edged, plant that area so it doesn't look bad. I believe that the st. augustine grows thicker than bermuda, which would mean that you shouldn't have too much trouble with bermuda seed germinating in it, that is unless your st. augustine gets a bare area or starts to struggle with fungus you will most likely have either weeds or bermuda (considered a weed too in They are both aggressive grasses and will probably run together with out a defined grass-less border between houses.

As far as the install, I would kill your current grass and wait as long as possible (1-2 weeks is good) for the chemical to leech out of the soil. You can hire someone to scrape the yard for you with a Harley rake or whatever they use for site prep, or rent your own machine to do it. Sod cutter will take a long time & lots of labor. I wouldn't suggest amending the soil unless you are planning on tilling in the amendment, in which case you will need to add 4 inches and till to a depth 12'' (12'' because that is going to be about your max root depth of the grass). If you simply amend the top of the current soil without tilling, your roots will most likely grow shallow and will struggle during dry & hot weather. Most of the time we lay sod, we lay on native soil. Use a starter fertilizer at no more than the rate shown on the bag.

unkownfl
12-05-2009, 11:31 PM
Just let it mix it all looks green from the street.

Turf Dawg
12-06-2009, 01:37 AM
I will not speak for other areas of the country [although I figure them to be the same] but hear if you water then the St Augustine is the dominant grass. Yes it will slowly start to take over the Bermuda in your neighbors lawn. Like Hess lawns stated, you can use msma to kill back the St Augustine but it will be a constant battle and will not look all that great in those areas.

I know this is a personal preference type of a question, but why do you want to change to St Augustine grass for? I personally try to talk people out of St Augustine grass unless it will be used in a shady area. Out of our main turf grasses it is the most likely to get disease/fungus, does not handle foot traffic well and chinch bugs love it. You also do not have as many herbicides for troublesome weeds labeled for it.

I really do like some of the Zoysia grass especially the Jamur and Pallisades. These are very thick to really choke out the weeds, really handle foot traffic well, handle shade better than Bermuda, spreads slower than Bermuda and St Augustine and does not seem to be bothered by fungus. The customers I have talked into the Jamur [my personal favorite grass right now] have been very pleased with this grass. I am going to do my brother in laws lawn in the near future with Jamur.

Bottom line is that it is your lawn so you can have what ever you want to, but you will have a battle on your hands keeping it out of your neighbors. Or just let it go like most around here do.

greendoctor
12-06-2009, 01:43 AM
My thoughts exactly. Stupidity exemplified is putting down st augustine in a lawn that does not get enough water and is in full sun all day long. Gentlemen place your bets on when it will be taken over by bermuda. I never recommend st augustine unless the area is wet and shady here. For reasons of chinch bug, inability to control grassy weeds and intolerance of foot traffic.

CkLandscapingOrlando
12-06-2009, 07:43 AM
Down here your hard pressed to find people that want anything but aug. Many like zoysia because of all the claims. Then they find out that drought tolerant just means it turns brown, well they dont like it so much. I personaly think Aug looks better than any of them but it's alot of work for most clients. Just a little stress and Aug can go bad real fast. And theres no shortage of bugs and fungus waiting to eat it up. Now this msma, does it kill the bermuda or the aug? Can a home owner buy it or is it restricted use? The down side to using bermuda or at least the wild bermuda around here, it takes over every thing. Or will try any ways. How do you guy's keep it out of beds? Roundup works for me but I dont have anny intentional bermuda lawns.

Turf Dawg
12-06-2009, 12:34 PM
Down here your hard pressed to find people that want anything but aug. Many like zoysia because of all the claims. Then they find out that drought tolerant just means it turns brown, well they dont like it so much. I personaly think Aug looks better than any of them but it's alot of work for most clients. Just a little stress and Aug can go bad real fast. And theres no shortage of bugs and fungus waiting to eat it up. Now this msma, does it kill the bermuda or the aug? Can a home owner buy it or is it restricted use? The down side to using bermuda or at least the wild bermuda around here, it takes over every thing. Or will try any ways. How do you guy's keep it out of beds? Roundup works for me but I dont have anny intentional bermuda lawns.

The type of Zoysia [Jamur] that I am talking about will hold color as good or better than our [mainly Raleigh] St Augustine with the same amount of water. Now this is in clay soils so ya'lls sand maybe different.

The MSMA will kill the St Augustine as fast or faster than Gly will. It is a product that is going away :cry::cry::cry: and I really hate this because it is the only product that will get Dallis grass and the Bluestem in our Bermuda lawns. It also is great on crabgrass, goosegrass, ect......... in Bermuda and is labeled for Zoysia.

The common Bermuda is also one of our most troublesome weeds, yes even in hybrid Bermuda lawns, it can get everywhere and also spreads by seed. Most of the lawns that have been put in on homes and commercial sites in my area over the last 10/15 years is the Tif 419 because most of the sod farms has it and it can be had cheap. I am not a big fan of the 419 because of the maintenance, but that is another story, but it is one of the many types of Bermuda that are for the most part sterile [does not grow from seed] and looks different from the common.

unkownfl
12-06-2009, 12:37 PM
The type of Zoysia [Jamur] that I am talking about will hold color as good or better than our [mainly Raleigh] St Augustine with the same amount of water. Now this is in clay soils so ya'lls sand maybe different.

The MSMA will kill the St Augustine as fast or faster than Gly will. It is a product that is going away :cry::cry::cry: and I really hate this because it is the only product that will get Dallis grass and the Bluestem in our Bermuda lawns. It also is great on crabgrass, goosegrass, ect......... in Bermuda and is labeled for Zoysia.

The common Bermuda is also one of our most troublesome weeds, yes even in hybrid Bermuda lawns, it can get everywhere and also spreads by seed. Most of the lawns that have been put in on homes and commercial sites in my area over the last 10/15 years is the Tif 419 because most of the sod farms has it and it can be had cheap. I am not a big fan of the 419 because of the maintenance, but that is another story, but it is one of the many types of Bermuda that are for the most part sterile [does not grow from seed] and looks different from the common.

Zoysia here is crap. All the LCO here don't know what to do with it. They try to cut it at 3 inches with their rotary's and take 2 inches off. Ground is sandy and Zoysia hates it because it drains to fast.

ALC-GregH
12-06-2009, 12:47 PM
Here ya go, it sounds like you southern guys need a dose of some nice KB/Fescue mixed northern grass. :D

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/americanlawncare/CIMG0166.jpg

Richard Martin
12-06-2009, 12:58 PM
All you need to do is bury some aluminum edging around your perimeter and leave it sticking up a bit. The amount it sticks up should just barely be below the blades on your mower. Then just hold the trimmer up on a 90 degree angle and edge along the aluminum edging every time you cut your grass. It's extra work but if you wanna have different grass from everybody else it's what you'll have to do.

The wooden fence will do nothing to stop the two grasses from invading one another.

Turf Dawg
12-06-2009, 02:13 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIQUtranqV4Zoysia here is crap. All the LCO here don't know what to do with it. They try to cut it at 3 inches with their rotary's and take 2 inches off. Ground is sandy and Zoysia hates it because it drains to fast.

Just wondering what type/variety Zoysia you are talking about? Just saying Zoysia is just like saying Bermuda. Some of the varieties are as different as night and day. There are many/most varieties that I would not consider putting in a home lawn/landscape of Zoysia and Bermuda. I put a link in about Jamur that I thought was neat but it is showing it at the top instead of down here.

CkLandscapingOrlando
12-06-2009, 03:28 PM
I'll find the name of zoysia they use around here. See we dont get very many lawns that people wanted bermuda. It's just wild. So thats what I'm talking about. I was also talking about him spraying his Aug to kill the bermuda. We never do it the other way around here. Every one want St Aug. The only folks that want anything else want it so they dont have to water. So most people either want aug and have water or want bahia or zoysia who dont. Cause they think drought tolerant means it's green without water.

greendoctor
12-07-2009, 03:13 AM
My, how the region changes preferences. I normally have to talk people into putting st augustine in because it is too shady for their preferred zoysia or bermuda to be used. Fine turf in a residential lawn is mowed with a reel mower at less than 1". It is quite the adjustment when I tell someone they cannot cut their lawn that short because it is st augustine. But, in the end they are happy because their last lawn guy was not truthful about what zoysia or bermuda would look like in the shade. At least st augustine will grow in partial shade.

jtk47
12-07-2009, 03:26 AM
Emerald Zoysia is adapted to zones 7-11[1] and does well in warm, humid environments. It is an excellent grass for the southern and southeastern states. Once established it requires less water than St. Augustine but slightly more than Bermuda.[2] It is drought tolerant due to its deep root structure.[3] Browning may occur in triple digit heat, but adequate hydration can restore its vibrant green color in a matter of minutes. The grass is moderately shade tolerant, coming close to the shade tolerance of St. Augustine.[4] However, it does not do well in full shade[5] as compared to Rye and Fescue. An average of at least 3-4 hours of full sun per day is a good measure for healthy growth.[6] Flooding is tolerated, but constant saturation will eventually weaken the grass. This zoysia has a moderate cold tolerance and can be damaged by hard freezes and is not hearty in transition zones. Emerald Zoysia is a very slow growing lawn grass. Zoysia grasses are generally slower growing than Bermuda and St. Augustine, with Emerald Zoysia being one of the slowest growing Zoysia grasses. The grass exhibits a dense creeping growth, rather than an aggressive upward, or sprawling growth. The blade density is much higher than other grasses, giving a very dense, carpet-like, or "hedgehog" appearance.

This is what we use in South Mississippi usually, if we use Zoysia. oh MSMA is done in 2012. Then we get to use Revolver which is $800 a gallon lol

greendoctor
12-07-2009, 03:35 AM
True on the emerald zoysia. In my area, it can look like shat due to being mowed with a rotary, not being fertilized, but is is far from dead. Do that to bermuda and you will end up with a weed field. However, when it is cut to the correct height with a reel and on a solid fertilization program, the grass is stunning. It is also the last grass to burn out from the heat or thin from shade. However, if it is not mowed often enough or short enough, the thatching and mounding is ugly.

CkLandscapingOrlando
12-07-2009, 07:21 AM
Emerald is the name come to think of it. Nice. It's just not used the way Aug is down here. In fact most hoa mandate st aug.

ericbl
03-08-2010, 02:46 PM
Turf Dawg, I noticed that you have posted several times regarding Jamur, (first let me state that I am just the anal homeowner), I love the grass. I posted several messages last year with some of the issues that I was having with mine. Mainly the inability to cut it once it grew too high, gorgeous to look at but impossible to cut with my Toro recycler as it would simply bog down like I was trying to remove too much when in fact it was just my weekly cut. I began the process of lowering the height, in the fall of last year, down to about 2.5” in about three cuttings about ˝” per session. Anymore and my mower would simple bog down, and yes my blades were sharp. I had several patches in the yard that were a dark, almost black, in color. I contacted Dougets Turf farm where I purchased the grass here locally and the manager came to my house which was above and beyond my expectations. When the gentleman looked at the yard he but his hand in the grass and simply said the grass was too tall. The brown and dark spots I was seeing was the base of the grass, he compared it to the trunk of a tree, so I cut all of the limbs and leaves off. He stated no problem with it and recommend I leave it as is and cut it down while still dormant to about an inch and once the season starts back keep it low, 2” max. I live in the Beaumont Tx area and I told him I always heard to leave the grass long as the long blades would protect the root system during our hot summer months. He said if it needs water, than water it, but keep it low, in closing he said that “Dougets patented the Jamur I know this grass, and if I can’t grow it I can’t sell it, keep it low”.
I just finished applying a 15-5-10 for a quick green up and a pre emergent herbicide. The grass is now starting to green up, so from my experience I would recommend keeping Jamur cut low, Unlike the St. Augustine that I grew up cutting if this stuff is allowed to in excess you will spend a considerable amount of energy making it look good again. I will try to keep everyone posted as if I would have known going in I could have saved myself a ton of work.
I did purchase a Tru-Cut reel mower as the recommended maximum is about the lowest setting on my Toro.

Turf Dawg
03-08-2010, 03:52 PM
I do not think that Dougets patanted the JaMur since it was developed by Jack Murray [JaMur], but I have been wrong before, and I am in no way calling this person a liar. As for the cuuting height I would do as he stated since I have never seen your grass, and I think you will love the reel mower. I wish I had time to use a reel on my Bermuda lawns. One thing I do is only fertilize JaMur once in spring and once late summer and this may be why I do not have a problem cutting beween 2&3". I guess different people have different feelings about cut height http://www.theturfgrassgroup.com/documents/JamurZoysia.pdf
I have heard some say between .5 and 1.5 and others say from1 to3".

Turf Dawg
03-08-2010, 04:06 PM
Like I said, I have been wrong before and it looks like I was wrong again. The paten # has their name and Bladerunner farms on it.

brucec32
03-08-2010, 05:38 PM
Unless you enjoy neighborly feuds, you might reconsider going against the neighborhood grain on choice of grass if you live in a subdivision or 'neighborhoody' area. Or like the other poster said, establish a planting bed on the border and keep it edged. But ask about where HE thinks the property line is first or you'll have another issue.

I'd run a line of shrubs down the middle of the bed (sized appropriately) for a natural break in the properties as well.

Actually I'd just live with the Bermuda if it otherwise was doing well and spend my time doing yard work for pay.

ericbl
03-08-2010, 06:00 PM
Turf Dawg, it appears the information on the Jamur is all over the place when it comes to height, fert and the such, with me the problem occurred because we laid the sod after the construction of our home. A buddy of mine owed me a favor and sent his labor crew to lay the sod, of course they did not take the time as a professional like yourself so I had some high and low spots and the seams were not as tight as I would have liked it. Cut low the imperfections were exposed, allowed to grow higher around 4” it covered these up of course the wife wanted it high, Soft on the bare feet, beautiful color, everything we wanted. Prior to it going dormant I filled in the low areas with dirt and sand, and worked through the blades, as I would cut the grass the areas that I filled in were always greener than the rest of the yard, shorter height compared to the rest, it looked better short in those areas. My only issue was the difficulty in cutting it as Douget told me the higher the blade gets the tougher the blade gets, hence difficulty with my mower and perhaps the property for higher traffic. The transition period from 4” to 1” is the hard work part, when using a walk behind. I feel comfortable that once the grass gets into the growing season it will be exactly what I have been looking for. My grass is now at 1.5” and is level with no seams, just not the most attractive, in the dormant stage it looks just like the rest of the neighbors St. Augustine, so the dormant hay color is not a disadvantage in my area. I really appreciate your input and wanted to post my personal experience because I have asked several questions in the past here and the members have been helpful. I figured I owed the forum one. What is your opinion on adding soil amendments such as gypsum, green sand etc.?