PDA

View Full Version : How much do you charge for Landscape Designs?


tyler_mott85
12-11-2009, 10:34 PM
Hey all. I am in the middle of a 18 week course with Ashworth College for a Landscape Design Diploma.

Several lessons back the author in my text was talking about pricing for landscape designs. I'm not sure how dated this text is so I thought I would get some feedback on what you guys charge if a customer wants a design but no install. Do you give them a credit if they want it installed by you?

How much are you charging now? Did you charge a lot less when you were starting out?

I'm very excited about this new career path in front of me and can't wait to start some drawing. I've picked up some basic essentials in the supplies department. Gotta start practicing my drawing skills now!

Thanks for any information you're willing to share.

Stillwater
12-12-2009, 08:47 AM
For a formal design approved and certified 9% to 15% of total initial installation cost. Using the current labor standards and material cost for the geographical area in my state where the design is for. A piece of the action baby weather I install or not

AGLA
12-12-2009, 08:59 AM
That is like asking how much do restaurants charge for dinner. You can get a burger from the dollar menu at some of the fast food places for - well, a dollar. Then you can find a burger on the menu in some high end restaurants for over $20. Then there are other things on different menus all together. Probably more important is that the person who frequents the dollar menu is highly unlikely to be found in a high end restaurant or vice-versa. It is no different in landscape design.

The first thing that will limit how much you can charge is the level of service you are providing. You were probably told that it is common to get 10% of the price of the overall landscape as a designer. What you probably were not told is that includes contract administration which is being completely responsible for finding contractors, inspecting and approving their work, being fully responsible for the completion of the job and everything that comes up during and after it. Most landscape designers are not hired to do all that, nor are most capable of doing all of that.

Most designers do only a layout plan and hand it off to the client to find their own contractors and manage the job themselves. That is a plan drawn to scale showing the location of plants, hardscapes, and other features on a single sheet of paper. The reason that this is the most common practice is that this is what most clients are wiling to pay for. You can't make a living trying to do something that people are not buying, so more designers offer this level of service than not.

Other levels of service include construction documents. These are plan sets and specifications that cover the most minute details of how things are to be put together and exact materials to be used. This is a huge amount of work in many cases and the designer takes on larger responsibilities if the plans are followed and something fails. Obviously this work takes a lot more time ($) and exposes the designer to more risk ($). That drives the cost up as well as protects the consumer by having a more guaranteed outcome. The problem for the designer is that he needs a much deeper knowledge, has to sell a more expensive service, and has to protect himself with costly errors and omissions insurance.

The third thing that is going to limit your price is your market. Your market is whom you are selling your plans to rather than just the geographic area you are selling in. The most realistic definition of "your market" is the people on the other end of the phone line when your phone rings. You can't decide what your market is. You have to position yourself to be worthy of a particular market. You can be fully capable of designing high end residential landscapes, but if those clients are looking somewhere else, or don't have great confidence in you if they do find you, or find others to be more experienced then they are not "your market".

"Your market" is going to have some opportunities and some constraints. The smaller the budget, the less likely they will pay for a landscape design. It takes a certain amount of time to do even the most limited plan. Bare minimum is two hours if you include driving to a site, meeting the client, and scribbling on a napkin. How cheap can you charge for two hours? That has to be at least $100 no matter how inexperienced. Someone with a budget of $1,000 is not going to drop more than that for a plan and probably won't spend a dime. Someone spending $10,000 on a landscape is not going to spend more than $200-$300 on a plan and also is unlikely to spend a dime on it.

You really need to know how much you need to charge to do the level of service you are going to provide. Then you have to ask yourself if "your market" is going to pay that much.

I have a certain way that I work which requires detailed measuring and accurate drafting. This takes considerable time ($). I produce 24"x36" black & white layout plans, usually at 1"=10'. I have found that the minimum that I can charge for any plan is $900. If the job does not warrant that much for design, I simply don't do it. That cuts off a huge amount of people who want to have a landscape. They are out of my market. I find that the total budget cutoff for people willing to pay for design has a floor of about $20,000. If people are not investing more than that, they are not going to invest in design.

I usually charge $1,500 for a residential landscape layout plan, but range between $900-$3,000. Many of these include multiple level retaining walls, swimming pools, patios, walks, driveways, fencing, pergolas, .... The built work ranges from $20k - $200k.

You have to remember that I have been doing this professionally for 30 years, have a degree in landscape architecture, worked in a civil engineering office for ten years, have an extensive resume, am a licensed landscape architect, and can talk a dog off of a meat wagon. I also make my living with a full time in a civil engineering office, so I have the luxury of not taking on landscape design work that don't pay enough or that I don't want to do. Those prices might sound good, but I only do about a dozen landscape plans a year (could do more if I did not work full time, but don't think I could replace my job income and benefits).

It is a very competitive profession. You have licensed landscape architects, people with landscape architecture degrees, horticulture degrees, landscape design certificates, home gardeners looking to make extra money or just apply their hobby somewhere else, lots of people losing corporate jobs with graphic skills who think they "can do this", and the biggest competitor of all is the very well experienced landscape contractor who knows what he is doing - is willing to do the design cheap in order to land the construction job and is more likely to get the phone call than either you or me.

Don't expect to get rich quick.

Your best use of the skills that you are learning is to use it to sell install services. When I was in design/build, I found that once I did the design, the install was mine to lose. Selling the design can almost translate to selling the build. Don't price yourself out of making the real money on the build. However, don't design for free. That does not work. Anyone will take something for free whether they value it or not. You need them to show some commitment. If they give you $100, they probably are not taking three free designs from others. It lets you know that they are focused on you.

glaciator
12-12-2009, 09:03 AM
Stillwater...I just completed a design for a bid I prepared for installation. At your rate, I would have to have charged between 10K and 16K for the design. No one in their right mind would pay $10,000 for a residential landscape design, no matter how elaborate. Guess, what, I did it for free! Why, because I wanted to get the installation contract, which it turns out I did not. It took me a day to to the design (8 hours) plus $30 in copy fees, plus 3 hours with the customer. However, the customer did not get to keep the design. I made my presentation and went over the design and bid, rolled it up and walked away, hoping I'd intrigued them to see more. That said, I would have charged $800 for the design had I been contracted to to the design only. Granted, I'm still learning...I hope we all are...so perhaps that wasn't the best approach. But this guy wasn't going to pay for designs from 4 landscape contractors, so I made my best stab at getting the whole contract.

glaciator
12-12-2009, 09:11 AM
AGLA, great post...I believe I fall into the category you describe...

"and the biggest competitor of all is the very well experienced landscape contractor who knows what he is doing - is willing to do the design cheap in order to land the construction job and is more likely to get the phone call than either you or me."

I do design work to get the installation....that is where I can make money (some). But I too was out of the industry for 12 years sitting behind a desk trying to "change the world". Then laid off and decided to take my 15 years of landscape and horticultural experience as a landscpe and nursery employee and try to "do it right myself". I just opened in 2008, but I am finding a market. Thank you for your insightful post about knowing and finding your market. That was a joy to read.

Cheers,

Stillwater
12-12-2009, 09:32 AM
AGLA, great post...I believe I fall into the category you describe...

"and the biggest competitor of all is the very well experienced landscape contractor who knows what he is doing - is willing to do the design cheap in order to land the construction job and is more likely to get the phone call than either you or me."

I do design work to get the installation....that is where I can make money (some). But I too was out of the industry for 12 years sitting behind a desk trying to "change the world". Then laid off and decided to take my 15 years of landscape and horticultural experience as a landscpe and nursery employee and try to "do it right myself". I just opened in 2008, but I am finding a market. Thank you for your insightful post about knowing and finding your market. That was a joy to read.

Cheers,



Yep looks like you guys are around 4 to 10% useing agla's numbers, a little better than I am doing

Stillwater
12-12-2009, 09:39 AM
Stillwater...I just completed a design for a bid I prepared for installation. At your rate, I would have to have charged between 10K and 16K for the design. No one in their right mind would pay $10,000 for a residential landscape design, no matter how elaborate. Guess, what, I did it for free! Why, because I wanted to get the installation contract, which it turns out I did not. It took me a day to to the design (8 hours) plus $30 in copy fees, plus 3 hours with the customer. However, the customer did not get to keep the design. I made my presentation and went over the design and bid, rolled it up and walked away, hoping I'd intrigued them to see more. That said, I would have charged $800 for the design had I been contracted to to the design only. Granted, I'm still learning...I hope we all are...so perhaps that wasn't the best approach. But this guy wasn't going to pay for designs from 4 landscape contractors, so I made my best stab at getting the whole contract.



Those are not my rates those are rates from the firms in the city of Boston.

AGLA
12-12-2009, 12:19 PM
9-15% is not for a landscape layout plan handed over. It is for overseeing the design. Some over in Cambridge get 20%.

There is no standard throughout all landscape design. There are lots of levels of complexity, lots of levels of detail, lots of levels of drafting, lots of various deliverable design products, ....

More importantly, there is no standard client. Some value design enough to pay. Some value design and just don't feel there is room in the budget to pay. Some just don't want to pay. There is someone out there that is willing to provide a service for each and everyone of these clients. The difficulty is matching these four things - client needs, client budget, designers skill set, and designers pricing. It is harder because sometimes either or both the client and designer are not so forthcoming to make the match easy to determine. Making that happen is another skill set that a designer needs in order to make a living at it.

Paradise Landscapes
12-12-2009, 08:43 PM
I pretty much charge about 20.00 per hour doing design work if it's in the 10,000.00 range, 40.00 per hour if in the 20,000.00 range. It may take as long as 14 hrs for a professional design. When I get my masters' I'll be charging more.

I too, want to get my Landscape Architecture degree from OSU after KSU.

Forgot to mention, 85.00 for 1.5hr consultations.

PaperCutter
12-13-2009, 10:57 AM
Well, there you go. You're also competing against college students charging $20/hr. How many ads do you see on craigslist right now for landscape, interior, and graphic design that are looking for "student designers- can't pay much, but build your portfolio"?

What you charge is going to depend in large part on how you choose to position yourself, and who you're selling to. I've been on sales calls where the homeowner tells me "wow, I've now had quotes of $300, $1200, $3300, and $5000 to design my yard." On this example, I knew most of the players. THe $5K guy is an older LA, coming from over fifty miles away. The $300 guy is my buddy who was looking to get the install, so his fee was more just covering his butt a little bit. In the middle were two local designers, offering two different levels of service.

I choose to quote a design fee independent of any project management. As others have mentioned, the design fee is often a decent chunk of the budget. There's no guarantee that the client will move forward with the project right away, or will even opt to work with you on the install. I'd rather just get paid fairly for whatever time I have into a project.

Sales ability is going to be your biggest asset when it comes to getting design contracts. Just being an order taker isn't going to cut it, especially nowadays. You not only have to bring something to the table, you have to be able to explain what that is and why it's critical.

As for design as a viable percentage of budget, it partly depends on what the project is. I agree, there's probably not a lot of room (or perceived value) for a designer on a $10K planting job. But, I do a lot of detailed custom arbors and trellises, and I have no trouble getting design fees for those. It's good to specialize (and it doesn't hurt that the off-the-shelf stuff sucks).

Paradise Landscapes
12-13-2009, 11:28 AM
Paper cutter,
Did you see 40.00/Hr in the 20,000.00 range? When all done and complete some have been at a 360.00 to 600.00 total for designs when said and done. I am very detailed and perform tests on site while I'm there. Site Analysis, PH, soil profiles, and our Client questionaire.

PaperCutter
12-13-2009, 05:11 PM
Not a knock on you, just pointing out that there's a lot of competition out there at different price points, if someone's expecting a given percentage of overall project cost. I wasn't trying to come across like a jerk, sorry if I did!

Question for you though. At one point I had toyed with a sort of tiered pricing system, but eventually I came to realize that regardless of the project I was bringing the same assets to the table and working just as hard. I somehow can't imagine you're only working 50% as hard for the smaller jobs; in fact, I find that some of them require more creativity to make it work. So how is that pricing structure working out for you? Do you end up feeling shortchanged/ underappreciated by your smaller clients?

Paradise Landscapes
12-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Not a knock on you, just pointing out that there's a lot of competition out there at different price points, if someone's expecting a given percentage of overall project cost. I wasn't trying to come across like a jerk, sorry if I did!

I didn't know if you saw that or not. I know you weren't knocking on me, although at times it feels like I need someone to keep me in line. LOL!
It's ok. Don't worry.

Question for you though. At one point I had toyed with a sort of tiered pricing system, but eventually I came to realize that regardless of the project I was bringing the same assets to the table and working just as hard. I somehow can't imagine you're only working 50% as hard for the smaller jobs; in fact, I find that some of them require more creativity to make it work. So how is that pricing structure working out for you? Do you end up feeling shortchanged/ underappreciated by your smaller clients?

The teired system is something I am experimenting with myself. I want to charge those prices to get the work, but being 20,000 job more is required to do the design work. Alot more is involved on bigger projects. More than likely, I may abandon the tier system when I get to about 1mil plus is sales. Only then I have full confidence that my porfolio is extremely solid, then I can charge more. At times I feel unappreciated. I mean if this was reversed, Client doesn't appreciate the hard work put into a design, why should you show appreciation toward that client? Not my reality, but a simple thought.

However, the pricing tier does 2 things.
1) Builds my portfoilio
2) Weeds out the tire kickers.

I try to get a set retainer at our first meeting of 150.00. If we land the job, I credit it towards the job. All designs are our ownership and copywritted to protect our interest. No single client gets a copy of thier design UNLESS Irrigation is invoved to help pin point problems and/or they pay Full price for all hours accounted for the design process. (Remember me mentioning testing , questionaire, Ph and site analysis? I add that in too) We would still own that coyright.

When I make a design, we are more on plant material, close nit gardens you see in magazines. That's what we want to design for a client. If a Client wants hardscape, it's going on the design and we'll install it.

I want to see what you have to say papercutter.

~~ Charles

AGLA
12-13-2009, 08:33 PM
At one point I had toyed with a sort of tiered pricing system, but eventually I came to realize that regardless of the project I was bringing the same assets to the table and working just as hard. I somehow can't imagine you're only working 50% as hard for the smaller jobs; in fact, I find that some of them require more creativity to make it work.

I agree with that. The smaller budgets often require working around crap that the client does not want to give up. That means more accurate measuring and racking your brain to get new stuff to work with old junk. You are sometimes forced to accept problems and work around them rather than fixing them because the budget simply is not there.

I find that bigger budgets are easier because you can address problems with actions or materials that have cost associated with them, you can clear out junk, and add a lot of things to overcome aesthetic or function problems. Drawing in retaining walls and swimming pools does not take much effort or time.

If I had to, I'd rather charge less to design a bigger high end site than a tight budget smaller site.

The lower budget folks tend to agonize over details (because it is all they have) where the bigger budget people are more worried abut the overall look and how the property will function. Much easier to address the latter.

Paradise Landscapes
12-13-2009, 08:36 PM
AGLA,
How truthful that is!

Curtis James
12-16-2009, 03:37 AM
What's up? I am new here and browsing around because i got my first comercial grounds maintenance contract. as I am reading over this thread I am really confused. How are you teiring these jobs? Don't you have to measure and come up with a rough idea about the job before you could ever state a figure? I have been doing design and installation for over five years or so and I have to go to each job and bid according to the client. The desires of the client and the grandiose of the design are always the factor that tell me how to charge. Bigger job longer time drawing measureing more money. Smaller job shorter time measuring and drawing less money. I have to have that initial interview to feel out the customer and their budget before I can put a price on anything. I will charge more just for people that seem to be difficult. I call it the P.I T.A. fee, Pain in the a@# fee. I do tree care also and have to deal with the week end warriors that run around hacking trees without hardhats on and no insurance underbidding me. With desing and instalation if you know what, where and why to plant then you are one step ahead of many. I have installed other designs that were purchased from designers that don't do installations and had to make corrections, like not putting huge grasses next to the AC units, because it clogs the units up and they can't circulate properly. Things like dogwood trees in the blazing hot sun in clay soil that was never tested to see what could tolerate those conditions. Ya know the little things that keep plants healthy and alive.I too have shown my drawing, done my pitch and not got the job. That is part of the trial and error. Each economic level is different. I am getting great information here though thanks alot.

AGLA
12-16-2009, 07:34 AM
How are you teiring these jobs? Don't you have to measure and come up with a rough idea about the job before you could ever state a figure? I have been doing design and installation for over five years or so and I have to go to each job and bid according to the client. The desires of the client and the grandiose of the design are always the factor that tell me how to charge.

I don't come up with prices unseen. I meet with people and walk their sites before writing up a detailed proposal. Size of the lot does not usually play that much of a factor (usually between 1/2 acre and two acres). I don't measure anything until I have a retainer and signed contract (which I write after walking the site). I do research the property before I meet with the client (very easy these days), so I know who owns it, what they paid for it, how much the mortgage is for, if there are any liens, the dimensions of the lot, and have at least looked at the subdivision plan to see the lot lines.

Regardless of whether the house is on a half acre or two, the work involved does not change that much unless they are trying to collect little vignettes of things they cut out of magazines all over the site or trying to re-invent Disney World. Most people want some kind of outdoor living space, some privacy, a functional driveway and pedestrian circulation - all dressed with aesthetic plantings. It does not take that much more time, if any, to draw bigger patios, more plants, and bigger or more expensive ammenities. That is why the price range does not fluctuate very much for me.

Paradise Landscapes
12-16-2009, 05:07 PM
I give the rates when they tell me what they want and especially how much they have to budget. I do go face to face. In the design process, it's all face to face.

AGLA
12-16-2009, 07:04 PM
I agree that face to face is the only way to go before writing a proposal. I won't go look at a property and give a price without the prospect walking it with me. I'm not going to do more than the prospect prior to a commitment. If they won't go to the site to meet me, I'm sure as hell not going to spend time checking it out just to hope I'll get work. If they can't commit to a meeting, I have very little confidence that they will commit to anything else.

STRINGALATION
12-30-2009, 06:05 PM
I have become a better salesman and have learned to prequalify customers pretty good now. That said i have all the math in my computer. So after walking with the client i have learned dont talk too much they'll do it with out you.... Check there assets as you walk around. Do they invite me in.? I pass for now put they offered... You can tell me what u want and ill tell u wut it cost. Or you can give me a budget and we'll create something.

I wont leave any thing anything with out money!!!!! Ill design for free usually if you make it that far with me. They audition for me the same as i for them...i can use the practice as i'm still creating my lay-outs and presentations. But i shoot from the hip all day .. U got to become a greatsales person and read people. And know your market that is so important i want 75.00phr for drafting & design work if thats the best way to price the situation. Over 10k i want 8% ergo 15k job i dont install but work as site manager $2700 if im doing a 15k job im designing for free because im getting the job. I know my market..

Paradise Landscapes
12-30-2009, 08:33 PM
I have become a better salesman and have learned to prequalify customers pretty good now. That said i have all the math in my computer. So after walking with the client i have learned dont talk too much they'll do it with out you.... Check there assets as you walk around. Do they invite me in.? I pass for now put they offered... You can tell me what u want and ill tell u wut it cost. Or you can give me a budget and we'll create something.

I wont leave any thing anything with out money!!!!! Ill design for free usually if you make it that far with me. They audition for me the same as i for them...i can use the practice as i'm still creating my lay-outs and presentations. But i shoot from the hip all day .. U got to become a greatsales person and read people. And know your market that is so important i want 75.00phr for drafting & design work if thats the best way to price the situation. Over 10k i want 8% ergo 15k job i dont install but work as site manager $2700 if im doing a 15k job im designing for free because im getting the job. I know my market..

So, you are crediting the design fee?

Crash
02-11-2010, 06:34 PM
Wow...I'm surprised at what I'm seeing here. Maybe I'm missing out, or maybe not. We do not charge anything for designs...no matter how big. Nor do we charge anything for a consultation. If we did, at least in our area, we would lose customers because people would rather get an idea of what their landscaping is going to look like for free. They don't want to pay to see what you can do for them...you want to show them a good design and WOW them for free, then you get the contract. But, maybe it's different in other areas.

KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC
02-13-2010, 11:20 AM
Wow...I'm surprised at what I'm seeing here. Maybe I'm missing out, or maybe not. We do not charge anything for designs...no matter how big. Nor do we charge anything for a consultation. If we did, at least in our area, we would lose customers because people would rather get an idea of what their landscaping is going to look like for free. They don't want to pay to see what you can do for them...you want to show them a good design and WOW them for free, then you get the contract. But, maybe it's different in other areas.

I dont mean to attack you but who has all this free time to put together a design (usually ranging 4-8 hours for a smaller scale we will say) just to take the chance on getting the contract? A design is charged for no matter what from me and I will modify the design after showing it to the customer if they have a concern about the design to make sure they are happy with the final product but they are charged for the design.
That would be like saying I will cut your lawn and trim your shrubs etc. for free just to "wow" the customer and maybe get them as a steady customer and a maintenance contract.
In the end time is $ and i would rather be making $ than doing "charity work" with hope of it being more.

Crash
02-13-2010, 11:50 AM
I dont mean to attack you but who has all this free time to put together a design (usually ranging 4-8 hours for a smaller scale we will say) just to take the chance on getting the contract? A design is charged for no matter what from me and I will modify the design after showing it to the customer if they have a concern about the design to make sure they are happy with the final product but they are charged for the design.
That would be like saying I will cut your lawn and trim your shrubs etc. for free just to "wow" the customer and maybe get them as a steady customer and a maintenance contract.
In the end time is $ and i would rather be making $ than doing "charity work" with hope of it being more.

I can see your point, but maybe I should specify. In my direct area their are probably 6 or 7 reputable landscape companies...none of them charge a fee for designing...we've been in business 22 years and have never charged a fee...so if we were to start now, we'd surely lose business in our area. Now in the bigger cities close to us, you're probably right, they all charge a fee I'm sure. But, we're always busy and usually get most of the jobs we strive to get...so I guess until that changes we'll keep on with our old practices.

AGLA
02-13-2010, 03:01 PM
I'm putting 20 hours into most of my designs, including meetings, measuring, and revisions.

I could, and have in the past, blasted out a quickie foundation planting plan as a contractor in order to sell a basic landscape job for no additional fee. It depends what work you are going after.

These are apples and oranges. ... so are the people that you might do these for.

KINGSBURYLANDSCAPELLC
02-13-2010, 05:28 PM
I can see your point, but maybe I should specify. In my direct area their are probably 6 or 7 reputable landscape companies...none of them charge a fee for designing...we've been in business 22 years and have never charged a fee...so if we were to start now, we'd surely lose business in our area. Now in the bigger cities close to us, you're probably right, they all charge a fee I'm sure. But, we're always busy and usually get most of the jobs we strive to get...so I guess until that changes we'll keep on with our old practices.

If it has worked for you for years then so be it. I would just hate to see people like the original poster of this thread and I who attended school and probably paid (cost me $6400) doing design work for free. I feel if you have something invested into something (especially $) then you should see a return. I have put a portion of the design fees toward the final invoice and see nothing wrong with that.


To the people who do designs and don't get the job do you just walk away with the design in hand and an empty pocket?
Posted via Mobile Device

AGLA
02-14-2010, 08:44 AM
Pricing is more a result of what somebody will pay than how much talent you have, how much time you put into it, or how much your education cost you.

There is also more than one way to get paid for design. Direct pay is what you have to get if you are trying to make a living by doing design only. However, using design as means to close on more installation jobs can be a much bigger payoff, so design can be an investment ventured for that opportunity. If you are a design/build and you are capable of doing professional quality design, it makes sense to get completely paid for both.

The most important thing to understand is what your prospect's options are for the type of work and value of the project. Selling design is like selling insurance - the bigger the value of the investment that you are trying to protect, the more you are willing to pay for that protection. Then you would compare policies and premiums with insurance, like a landscape customer compares their options. You are not going to get someone with a $5,000 budget to put $1,500 into design work, but you are also not going to zip off a quick sketch and land an $80,000 landscape plan.

People pay a designer for one thing and one thing only - to remove doubt from the outcome of a project. The more doubt, the higher the value of the design and the more knowledge, skills, and abilities the designer needs to have. The opposite is also true.

My opinion, based on 30 years designing for a lot of different companies, serving a lot of different demographics, in a lot of different geographic areas is that it does not make sense to try to serve every demographic at once. You as a designer should, and probably have to whether you know it or not, serve a limited range of project type rather than trying to adjust levels of design service to fit every situation.

Lower design jobs should be marginalized to a brief explanation, a plant list, and installation proposal. Higher jobs should be subbed out to higher level designers. You have a greater chance of losing a job by having a sub-par design than by bringing in a good designer and gambling that the project goes to someone else.

It makes sense to try to establish a relationship with a designer above your level of design capability. Bringing that person work should get them to do their best to stear the client in your direction and you could get recommended for installations of other jobs that they design independently. If they don't look to help you out, get a different one.

Crash
02-14-2010, 01:01 PM
To the people who do designs and don't get the job do you just walk away with the design in hand and an empty pocket?
Posted via Mobile Device



Yes...and it gets very frustrating when that happens.