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View Full Version : Hypothetical machine borrowing question


Tigerotor77W
12-25-2009, 06:02 PM
Note that the poll question is different!

Suppose you live in an area where the snow plow crews aren't very good (don't plow for days after a storm due to urgencies elsewhere) but people who don't own SUVs (and REAL SUVs -- not Kia or Hyundai caruvs) are getting stuck because of how bad snow has drifted. There is an SSL parked at a construction site (new development) and its owner, whom you don't know, has left a key in it. You know how to run SSLs and would gladly leave money for fuel.

Would you borrow the machine to help clear the subdivision a little bit?

Hanau
12-25-2009, 06:10 PM
I leave the keys in all my stuff, but I'd never take somebody elses stuff without asking.

bobcat_ron
12-25-2009, 06:18 PM
Hell no, let them do it, if they are too lazy to have a dude near by to run it, phone the company that owns it and complain.

That's the Canadian way.

Ozz
12-25-2009, 06:19 PM
No. I'd watch my neightbors fail to get out thier driveway.:laugh:

Dieselnut
12-25-2009, 06:21 PM
I do not leave the keys in anything. Had a buddy that left the key under the floormat of his tractor. Next day it was about a mile away from where he left it 100% destroyed.

Also I would not dare touch a machine without premission of someone's who I dont know or even someone who I know. How would you like it if you left the keys in your car,truck or machine and someone you do not know used it. I for one would be pissed. I would have the state and county PD there that instant taking prints off it to put that low life SOB who used my machine in the slammer where he belongs in a nice cell with big pinkey or bubba. Not the right thing to do. Now how would you feel if you did any damage to it?

If you ask the guy and he says yes go for it and clear the snow.

mudmaker
12-25-2009, 06:49 PM
I wouldn't use it unless I had talked to the owner and recieved permission. I never leave keys in my machines unless they are in a secure location. I know it is kind of useless from a security standpoint as all it takes is a trip to a dealer to get a key.

lx665
12-25-2009, 06:51 PM
If you get caught using the machine you could be locked up...its call stealing! What is the different from using a machine without permission and joy riding in a car that had the keys left in the...do you get the point?

John

Hanau
12-25-2009, 06:59 PM
Now I suppose the exception would be if it was a true emergency. If I was deep in the woods, my truck was stuck in the ditch, and my choice was to either hike 8 miles to cell phone reception or hike 2 miles to a log landing and borrow the dozer to get my truck out. Chances are I'd take the dozer.

Although I'd be sweating bullets the whole time praying a logger doesn't catch me on the machine.

WillieWonka1850
12-25-2009, 07:06 PM
Um, ask for permission! I don't want some angry owner coming after me! Possibly with a gun!

No offense, John :laugh:

Dieselnut
12-25-2009, 07:07 PM
Now I suppose the exception would be if it was a true emergency. If I was deep in the woods, my truck was stuck in the ditch, and my choice was to either hike 8 miles to cell phone reception or hike 2 miles to a log landing and borrow the dozer to get my truck out. Chances are I'd take the dozer.

Although I'd be sweating bullets the whole time praying a logger doesn't catch me on the machine.

If that logger did see you boy you better pray he frogot his glasses so he cant see you to blow your brains appart for stealing his equipment.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Hanau
12-25-2009, 07:29 PM
If the logger did catch me the x-ray of the chainsaw up my ass would be internet gold.

Tigerotor77W
12-25-2009, 07:35 PM
Well don't worry... this isn't a moral quandary (dilemma, Jr. :p ) I'm having because I can't figure out that it's stealing (clearly, it is); it's just a question because, I dunno, the guy's an idiot for leaving his keys in the machine and the "greater good" can be addressed without much fuss.

I'd be pissed if someone borrowed my car (or truck with plow or whatever), but then again, I never leave my keys in my car.

This all being said: I still haven't borrowed a machine in this fashion, so don't worry... I'm not trying to convince myself that it's legal or moral to do; I'm just curious how you guys'd react given that you also own equipment. (It's probably a good thing I haven't, too -- seems like my head would be rolling if I were caught!)

dozerman21
12-25-2009, 08:10 PM
If someone I didn't know hopped in my machine and fired it up I'd be pissed, but I wouldn't leave it there unlocked to start with. It's a bad idea... eventually something on the machine would break, or the person running it would hit something/someone. Then you have problems much deeper than that snow.:nono:

Junior M
12-25-2009, 08:15 PM
Well don't worry... this isn't a moral quandary (dilemma, Jr. :p ) I'm having because I can't figure out that it's stealing (clearly, it is); it's just a question because, I dunno, the guy's an idiot for leaving his keys in the machine and the "greater good" can be addressed without much fuss.

I'd be pissed if someone borrowed my car (or truck with plow or whatever), but then again, I never leave my keys in my car.

This all being said: I still haven't borrowed a machine in this fashion, so don't worry... I'm not trying to convince myself that it's legal or moral to do; I'm just curious how you guys'd react given that you also own equipment. (It's probably a good thing I haven't, too -- seems like my head would be rolling if I were caught!)
there yall go, confusing me again!

NEUSWEDE
12-25-2009, 09:23 PM
I know a bunch of companies around here they leave the keys in the machine just not in the ignition they hide it in the engine bay for the service guy or if they are not first in but that is mostly on sites with lots of equipment.

Me I take keys with me even if I go away for lunch. If it gets left over night everything gets locked especially the engine bay so no one tampers with it and if they do I can tell. Just play it safe as possible.

7.3 Rocket
12-25-2009, 09:25 PM
Our machines are our livelihood so I wouldn't take too kindly to someone just hopping in and going. They would likely end up getting a free ride to town with a friendly officer.

YellowDogSVC
12-25-2009, 09:37 PM
unless it was a bonafide emergency, I wouldn't touch any else's. I don't leave nor do I leave a machine unsecured. Can't take the hit of a theft. I have had a number of contractors tell me "the keys are in the machine/truck/tractor if you need to move it.

tallrick
12-25-2009, 10:07 PM
I have done this myself. Some construction workers left the job with a Bobcat blocking the driveway at my parent's home and a dirt mound obstructing the walkway in. Since the guys had left for the day I was going to pull the Bobcat with my truck. It hit me that maybe they left the key under the seat as many do. The key was there and I used their Bobcat to fill in some holes they left open after removing trees for transplanting. While using their machine I figured out that it had a problem. The BICS connector was loose and it caused the machine to drop the traction lock solenoid and stall. I fixed their problem and left a note when I parked it next to their trencher. Nobody said anything to me.

Junior M
12-25-2009, 10:55 PM
I have done this myself. Some construction workers left the job with a Bobcat blocking the driveway at my parent's home and a dirt mound obstructing the walkway in. Since the guys had left for the day I was going to pull the Bobcat with my truck. It hit me that maybe they left the key under the seat as many do. The key was there and I used their Bobcat to fill in some holes they left open after removing trees for transplanting. While using their machine I figured out that it had a problem. The BICS connector was loose and it caused the machine to drop the traction lock solenoid and stall. I fixed their problem and left a note when I parked it next to their trencher. Nobody said anything to me.
well hell, if you fixed my machine free of charge and hardly used it, I wouldnt complain either! :drinkup:

Sure you, cost them what, a couple bucks in fuel. But you saved them tons on taking the machine in..

YellowDogSVC
12-26-2009, 01:09 AM
I have done this myself. Some construction workers left the job with a Bobcat blocking the driveway at my parent's home and a dirt mound obstructing the walkway in. Since the guys had left for the day I was going to pull the Bobcat with my truck. It hit me that maybe they left the key under the seat as many do. The key was there and I used their Bobcat to fill in some holes they left open after removing trees for transplanting. While using their machine I figured out that it had a problem. The BICS connector was loose and it caused the machine to drop the traction lock solenoid and stall. I fixed their problem and left a note when I parked it next to their trencher. Nobody said anything to me.

maybe they couldn't read Ingles'

tallrick
12-26-2009, 02:07 AM
maybe they couldn't read Ingles'

That's the same thing a friend said. As for fixing their machine it has been kind of a habit of mine to check any equipment I borrowed from friends for problems. Saved a few from destruction as I have found almost empty crankcases and hydraulic tanks. Recently I was asked to borrow an S300 from a friend of a friend's farm to drill some holes for fruit trees. Once I got the back door open I was disgusted by the conditions inside. When I was done with the Bobcat he got it back pressure cleaned, fluids topped off and with a list of things that needed attention. I will not perform any detailed work on someone else's machine without their approval (or compensation) but if it is a simple or cheap fix I do it as well as clean things up. Being picky also saves me from having to fix a piece of equipment neglected and ready to fail. If it seems really bad I just refuse to use it.

I do loan some of my stuff to trusted friends but explain any things that need attention first. None of my tools or equipment have failed on any job. In fact I am quickly offered any tool I might need by those who know me. Probably seen as a barter of use for service. My stuff has always been returned in good condition as well.

YellowDogSVC
12-26-2009, 11:08 AM
I do loan some of my stuff to trusted friends but explain any things that need attention first. None of my tools or equipment have failed on any job. In fact I am quickly offered any tool I might need by those who know me. Probably seen as a barter of use for service. My stuff has always been returned in good condition as well.

I decided a long time ago not to loan out any of my big tools that I need to make a living for my family. I had family that "borrowed" stuff when I first went into business. Not only did I have a hell of a time getting my tools back, they would often come back abused or neglected. I have friends and neighbors that have asked to borrow my trailers or Bobcats and I tell them that I simply have a policy that I do not loan them out. I let a friend work with me one day towing my dump trailer. 3 out of 4 tires are ruined because his new brake box wasn't adjusted right.. Those tires are $150 or more each.

I do help my neighbors out as much as possible and as time permits. I try not to charge unless their projects preclude me from working on my regularly scheduled money-making projects so I try and be helpful but draw the line at loaning out expensive machinery. Heck, I don't like the way some of the dealership guys use my machine (not waiting for glow plugs to count down before starting is a pet peeve).

stuvecorp
12-26-2009, 01:27 PM
I decided a long time ago not to loan out any of my big tools that I need to make a living for my family. I had family that "borrowed" stuff when I first went into business. Not only did I have a hell of a time getting my tools back, they would often come back abused or neglected. I have friends and neighbors that have asked to borrow my trailers or Bobcats and I tell them that I simply have a policy that I do not loan them out. I let a friend work with me one day towing my dump trailer. 3 out of 4 tires are ruined because his new brake box wasn't adjusted right.. Those tires are $150 or more each.

I do help my neighbors out as much as possible and as time permits. I try not to charge unless their projects preclude me from working on my regularly scheduled money-making projects so I try and be helpful but draw the line at loaning out expensive machinery. Heck, I don't like the way some of the dealership guys use my machine (not waiting for glow plugs to count down before starting is a pet peeve).

To Tigers first question, no and I don't leave the key in the machine anymore. I wouldn't even leave the key in over lunch if we leave because it is too tempting to someone.

I have really stopped loaning or even renting my stuff out as it always comes back messed up, then it really strains relationships. I have a little trencher that trenches the edges for landscaping edging, have loaned it out to two different companies and both have messed it up bad, I swear the one dropped it out of a truck. The thing that upsets me is they won't spend their money on it but then are so careless with equipment I have invested in. I now say they can sub-contract me to do a part if they want that done.

Dirtman2007
12-26-2009, 02:33 PM
I'm not much on using someone else's equipment without permission. I'd be pissed if I came to the job and some random lever yanker was in my machine. First off I don't leave keys in stuff and at the end of every day I make sure all doors, windows and pannels are locked. I only leave keys in the equipment at lunch if its in one of my rural jobsite, not on any job in the city. I'd hate to come back and see my skid steer plowed through a house by some kid.

Omran&Turbo
12-26-2009, 07:27 PM
My T250 Bobcat costed me an arm and Leg, infact more than my double wide trailer, and I have a key code in it extra, just to make it harder for anyone else beside me to start it LOL, and NO I will never use someone else equipments unless he gave me his premission.

mrusk
12-26-2009, 10:44 PM
The only reason I would use someones elses machine is if a tree fell on top of a car or something like that and it was the only way to save someones life.

ioilyouin
12-26-2009, 11:38 PM
No I would not borrow a machine for anything less than an emergency.

However, a couple of years ago I had an incident on a jobsite that crippled my Class 7 truck and I was unable to finish the job let alone move to get back home. I was running out of daylight and assistance was several hours away. My portion of the job had to be done by the morning and I didn't have time in the morning. Less than 100 yards away was a skid with the keys in it. While I was reluctant to use it I quickly pulled my fender out so that the wheels would turn. I quickly parked the machine in the order I had found it. I then proceeded to scour the jobsite for a pipefitter's box that was open. I "borrowed " two pipe wrenches to replumb my hoses and finish before night fell upon us. Just as I finished my backup arrived, we switched out the bad tires and limped the truck in. That was a long day, I learned a good lesson or two that day. The only thing I should have done was fire my help that day.

I've had to move mounds of equipment at jobsites b/c people park in my way, occasionally I just have to work around them.

Bleed Green
12-27-2009, 12:22 AM
There is no way I would just fire up and run someone else's machines. No more than I would just jump in somebody's car or truck, or even walk in their house cause the door wasn't locked.
To me taking the skid would be off limits, what if you damage it? Then you are in big trouble.

Gravel Rat
12-27-2009, 03:30 AM
You borrow some bodies machine and something breaks down on it now what do you do.

People are so sue happy they catch you using their machine then they want to sue your azz off.

Leave the keys in a machine the insurance is null and void if it gets stolen or damaged.

Tigerotor77W
12-27-2009, 05:58 PM
Good points!

mudmaker
12-27-2009, 11:35 PM
Leave the keys in a machine the insurance is null and void if it gets stolen or damaged.

That is news to me!

I actually had a discussion with my insurance agent about that a few years ago. Doesn't matter if the keys are in it or not the machine is covered by the insurance policy.

Gravel Rat
12-28-2009, 01:07 AM
With dump trucks or any vehical licensed to be used on the road if the insurance company found that the keys were left in the truck your insurance is nil. Not sure about excavators or equipment I assume the same thing applies.

Yes many contractors have their keys hide somewhere on the machine at the end of the day. It saves alot of headaches when you have different operators. One operator could be running the machine and the next day another operator could be. Almost 90% of the time you don't stop by the company shop just head straight to the job. The machine key can be locked in a toolbox on the machine that uses say a master lock that every company truck key ring has a key for.

You really have to watch what you do insurance companies love to find every excuse not to pay out a claim. If they find that you made it easy for a theif or a vandal to steal or damage the machine you might be in troubles.

mudmaker
12-28-2009, 12:33 PM
I could see it if you have a reduced rate on your insurance because you are keeping it in a secure location. Even then they would have a hard time denying the claim unless it is written into the policy specifically stating leaving a key in a specific spot. You get a discount for security procedures such as an alarm, but if the alarm is somehow not activated it is not like they wont cover the loss.

It is just like auto coverage where you get ticketed for an accident. Your insurance still covers the loss even though you were in the wrong. That is what the insurance is for. You may not like your new premiums after the incident, but your loss is still covered by the original policy.

mrusk
12-28-2009, 01:18 PM
Considering how every machine from each brand uses the same key, I don't think it makes a difference if you leave the key in it or not.

tallrick
12-29-2009, 10:05 AM
Considering how every machine from each brand uses the same key, I don't think it makes a difference if you leave the key in it or not.

I have heard this but in my experience the keys are different from my Bobcat 843 to the 763 to the 863. My biggest fear about leaving stuff somewhere is that someone will help themselves to the battery, fuel, or other parts. Sure is tempting when you see what Bobcat charges for a stop solenoid for a Deutz and some company leaves their 873 Bobcat parked in an out of the way spot. A 10mm socket and 2 minutes and it's gone.

As for joyriders that is like these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRgTzwxSNdI

My view is that if someone wants to play around on a machine maybe they need a job. A friend who does site cleanup caught a kid joyriding his Case skid loader. Instead of calling the cops he offered him a job before he could make his escape. Turned out to be a reliable worker.

ioilyouin
12-29-2009, 11:27 AM
Saw the video, stupidity knows no bounds.

Gravel Rat
12-29-2009, 06:21 PM
I'am glad I live in a area where theft or vandalism isn't a problem you can leave a machine on a jobsite and not worry about it. Yes you do lock the fuel cap and the side panels and the cab door.

Like they say locks only keep the honest people out if a theif wants something bad enough they will steal parts or the whole machine.

Junior M
12-29-2009, 09:50 PM
I have heard this but in my experience the keys are different from my Bobcat 843 to the 763 to the 863. My biggest fear about leaving stuff somewhere is that someone will help themselves to the battery, fuel, or other parts. Sure is tempting when you see what Bobcat charges for a stop solenoid for a Deutz and some company leaves their 873 Bobcat parked in an out of the way spot. A 10mm socket and 2 minutes and it's gone.

As for joyriders that is like these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRgTzwxSNdI

My view is that if someone wants to play around on a machine maybe they need a job. A friend who does site cleanup caught a kid joyriding his Case skid loader. Instead of calling the cops he offered him a job before he could make his escape. Turned out to be a reliable worker.
those are the kinda people I'd like to take out back and shoot! :realmad:

YellowDogSVC
12-29-2009, 11:24 PM
my CAT key is different from my Bobcat keys but the Bobcat keys have fit every model from my 1996 C series to my toolcat and my Vermeer Chipper too.

Junior M
12-29-2009, 11:41 PM
my CAT key is different from my Bobcat keys but the Bobcat keys have fit every model from my 1996 C series to my toolcat and my Vermeer Chipper too.
Dad has a Bobcat key from his first 331 in 1994 that he still uses to this day, on any piece of BC equipment we get..

Gravel Rat
12-30-2009, 12:44 AM
When I was working for one of the contractors the Komatsu salesman gave me a master key for Komatsu machines he says it fits all of them.

tallrick
12-31-2009, 10:04 AM
I am going to take the ignition switch out of my 863 and see if it has pins or plates in the lock. If there is indeed a Bobcat master key I would like to make one. For security reasons I rig any machine I have with hidden cut-offs to discourage the joyriders, but they never sit anywhere besides my place when not in use. As for the kids playing around with the old 863 I am amazed they posted a video showing their faces and the phone number on the machine clearly visible. Yet if they didn't vandalize it or steal it I do not see a reason to punish them too severely. Making someone work seems like a much better solution. Sort of like when a parent catches a kid smoking and forces him to smoke the whole pack or a big cigar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF3Yqwt6Ws4

Gravel Rat
12-31-2009, 06:06 PM
If you have a machine with a mechanical fuel pump all you need is a hidden or un-marked switch that disconnects the 12 volts to the injection pump.

1idejim
12-31-2009, 08:17 PM
I leave the keys in all my stuff, but I'd never take somebody Else's stuff without asking.

bob, i really hope that you're felling better!!!!

i, also, was taught to keep my beaters off of other peoples stuff

i never locked a door 'tll last year, i still leave the keys in the front door 24/7 so i don't loose them. :confused:

Bleed Green
01-01-2010, 03:30 AM
i never locked a door 'tll last year, i still leave the keys in the front door 24/7 so i don't loose them. :confused:

You have to lock the door cause you don't know what the other people are going to do, at least that is my philosophy.

1idejim
01-01-2010, 03:35 AM
You have to lock the door cause you don't know what the other people are going to do, at least that is my philosophy.

i aint fraid of no ghosts :nono::nono:

sorry, that wasn't fare

1idejim
01-01-2010, 03:50 AM
bleed green,

i've lived too long to live in fear of others and what they might do. i take the keys out of the door only when i'm gone for more than a few weeks.

as i've said, i don't leave the keys in the equipment any longer but that's due to liability.

now that's a better answer :)