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View Full Version : CTL's are the Devil: Fact or Myth?


stuvecorp
01-01-2010, 05:13 PM
I have limited experience on the costs or problems of CTL's and so far my experience with the MTL(RC30) and VTS has been good. So what is the truth with the CTL's? The resale is horrendous, is that fair? I complain about the ride but with a more forgiving track and if ride control was an option, would it be 'good enough'? I'm curious to hear from guys that have more hours with them and some viewpoints from the sales guys.

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 05:31 PM
I posted this on the current T300 track thread:

I am still amazed at how much tracked machines cost to run.....new tracks at 1,00o hrs. I hear horror stories that include new sprockets, rollers, and other stuff adding up huge. I run 2 Kubota L48s (TLB) and a KX121-3 and always argue (friendly) with friends in MA who run Bobcats as to what is better. They work in tighter situations but nothing my machines cannot do. When told of $8-9+K in track/ UC repairs, the discussion gets animated. My operating costs are less than 1/2 of a tracked machine with = performance. Granted there are some areas each type of machine is better, but overall I am amazed at how many people run tracked machines for applications where another machine would be better and cheaper. I love my Kubota TLBs, very versatile. I will usually bring the KX121-3 and a L48 to a job site and have everything covered. Looking forward to Kubotas CTL even though I will never buy one.

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 05:35 PM
I posted this on the current T300 track thread:

I am still amazed at how much tracked machines cost to run.....new tracks at 1,00o hrs. I hear horror stories that include new sprockets, rollers, and other stuff adding up huge. I run 2 Kubota L48s (TLB) and a KX121-3 and always argue (friendly) with friends in MA who run Bobcats as to what is better. They work in tighter situations but nothing my machines cannot do. When told of $8-9+K in track/ UC repairs, the discussion gets animated. My operating costs are less than 1/2 of a tracked machine with = performance. Granted there are some areas each type of machine is better, but overall I am amazed at how many people run tracked machines for applications where another machine would be better and cheaper. I love my Kubota TLBs, very versatile. I will usually bring the KX121-3 and a L48 to a job site and have everything covered. Looking forward to Kubotas CTL even though I will never buy one.

TLB's are wonderful but they are in no way comparable to a CTL when it comes to moving dirt in terms of production.

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 05:49 PM
I would say a TLB (full size meaning 8-10K lbs.) such as HST L48/ M59 is about 90% of the capacity in shear pile push over force of a CTL, but I find the TLBs more productive in most other dirt tasks especially having grader blade, rake or some other implement on 3PT in most other circumstances. I would like to see a tracked machine with optional hoe!! Compound that with high initial purchase cost and higher operating costs it doesn't work for me. I know alot of people are CTL guys and that is great, excellent machines. *trucewhiteflag* The versatility of what I do requires a more functional machine. This is probably a topic for another thread.:drinkup:

The tracked machines sure are cool, I love having the KX for my tracks required situations.

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 06:08 PM
I have limited experience on the costs or problems of CTL's and so far my experience with the MTL(RC30) and VTS has been good. So what is the truth with the CTL's? The resale is horrendous, is that fair? I complain about the ride but with a more forgiving track and if ride control was an option, would it be 'good enough'? I'm curious to hear from guys that have more hours with them and some viewpoints from the sales guys.

I am one of the few people that has no need for a wheeled skid steer.
The reality is a machine should make you money, hopefully lots of it so if it is really a big deal that your machine brought 25k rather than 18k on trade in maybe you are in the wrong business.
A machine's primary purpose in life and it's most important reason to purchase is it's ability to generate income and that means moving material which generates income. Ride, resale value, cost of ownership, etc are secondary. This may bristle a few feathers but I just feel that often people bias there opinions to suit there color and so that there purchases are justified and the ultimate need to be proven right. For some people change is not good.LOL

I could not have done 50% of my work this year with a tired machine. Sure I could have spent 15k extra for tracks but we all see the resale of the setups so I cannot fathom why it would be a viable alternative without even taking into consideration the fact that no one know's what the long term operating costs of that setup will be or what damage it will do to the machine.
I also could go steel tracks over tires but I spent time on lawns, streets and concrete. Just not a viable solution.
So I bought a track machine. It starts every day and works in all climates and conditions. I never have to think twice of whether I may need different tires, steel tracks, VTS, blah blah blah. I just go to work. When I get done I load the machine up and come home.
At a 1000 hours I will spend about 3500 dollars. Take the cost of your tires from that and then thats what I will spend more than you. If anyone here cannot justify spending that on a machine after 1000 hours frankly you are in the wrong business. Plus I do not get flat tires , do less damage to lawns and unless your using your machine to haul loose material around a job site I will be way more productive. Even if I spent twice that the machine more than make up for it.
On the ride? I just do not think it is an issue.

KSSS may not be a fan of CTL's but the first thing out of his mouth when you ask him about his experience with his equipment is" This machine is Productive" he does not first mention he has an ipod plug in port or xm radio, amics, suspened undercarriage, blah blah blah he always opens up first with production. I have a feeling he might be on to something.

Does that mean everyone needs a CTL?
Maybe, Maybe not.
This "CTL is a money pit and your crazy for owning one" repertoire is getting old.
The only thing I can say that I would consider factual is that if you are excavating, grading year in and year out a CTL will out work a tired machine.
My opinion is if you use a CTl and bill it correctly over the the life of the machine it will have a lower percentage of cost in relation to generated money than a tired machine.

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 06:12 PM
I would say a TLB (full size meaning 8-10K lbs.) such as HST L48/ M59 is about 90% of the capacity in shear pile push over force of a CTL, but I find the TLBs more productive in most other dirt tasks especially having grader blade, rake or some other implement on 3PT in most other circumstances. I would like to see a tracked machine with optional hoe!! Compound that with high initial purchase cost and higher operating costs it doesn't work for me. I know alot of people are CTL guys and that is great, excellent machines. *trucewhiteflag* The versatility of what I do requires a more functional machine. This is probably a topic for another thread.:drinkup:

The tracked machines sure are cool, I love having the KX for my tracks required situations.

I agree on versatility but I own an excavator and a CTL and a Tractor.:weightlifter: Problem solved. LOL

I really want a Kubota TLB and I see why you have them.

My friend has a JD 310 hoe and he can not even get 1/2 the production I do from my CTL covering our Septic systems up.

stuvecorp
01-01-2010, 06:44 PM
I am one of the few people that has no need for a wheeled skid steer.
The reality is a machine should make you money, hopefully lots of it so if it is really a big deal that your machine brought 25k rather than 18k on trade in maybe you are in the wrong business.
A machine's primary purpose in life and it's most important reason to purchase is it's ability to generate income and that means moving material which generates income. Ride, resale value, cost of ownership, etc are secondary. This may bristle a few feathers but I just feel that often people bias there opinions to suit there color and so that there purchases are justified and the ultimate need to be proven right. For some people change is not good.LOL

I could not have done 50% of my work this year with a tired machine. Sure I could have spent 15k extra for tracks but we all see the resale of the setups so I cannot fathom why it would be a viable alternative without even taking into consideration the fact that no one know's what the long term operating costs of that setup will be or what damage it will do to the machine.
I also could go steel tracks over tires but I spent time on lawns, streets and concrete. Just not a viable solution.
So I bought a track machine. It starts every day and works in all climates and conditions. I never have to think twice of whether I may need different tires, steel tracks, VTS, blah blah blah. I just go to work. When I get done I load the machine up and come home.
At a 1000 hours I will spend about 3500 dollars. Take the cost of your tires from that and then thats what I will spend more than you. If anyone here cannot justify spending that on a machine after 1000 hours frankly you are in the wrong business. Plus I do not get flat tires , do less damage to lawns and unless your using your machine to haul loose material around a job site I will be way more productive. Even if I spent twice that the machine more than make up for it.
On the ride? I just do not think it is an issue.

KSSS may not be a fan of CTL's but the first thing out of his mouth when you ask him about his experience with his equipment is" This machine is Productive" he does not first mention he has an ipod plug in port or xm radio, amics, suspened undercarriage, blah blah blah he always opens up first with production. I have a feeling he might be on to something.

Does that mean everyone needs a CTL?
Maybe, Maybe not.
This "CTL is a money pit and your crazy for owning one" repertoire is getting old.
The only thing I can say that I would consider factual is that if you are excavating, grading year in and year out a CTL will out work a tired machine.
My opinion is if you use a CTl and bill it correctly over the the life of the machine it will have a lower percentage of cost in relation to generated money than a tired machine.

I can't understand why you're not concerned with plowing snow?:laugh::p

You bring up the 'money pit' and that is what one of the points that may be way over done? What is a set of tires go for and how long is average life? I know on my first 440 the tires were wearing with the steel OTT's.

I will agree that production is why we have these machines but you give me the choice to run the Case/VTS or the Tak I will go to the Case as I like running it better. Now production wise they are neck and neck, both lift the same and really seem to push the same. Money wise it's not a fair comparison as I basically got my VTS for nothing.

I just feel the track machines are getting a bad rap, my little ASL is at 1100 hours and tracks are still fine.

YellowDogSVC
01-01-2010, 06:59 PM
this thread came at a good time. As some of you may remember, I wrote about days off this fall due to wet weather. While many of my jobs are in rocky terrain, I do a few thousand dollars a month just moving trees, brush, and large trunks out of yards or improved properties for a tree company. Most of this brush is moved to large burn piles and some moved to grinding piles. About 1 out of three jobs requires carrying the brush a fair distance but many jobs allow me to pile the brush with 100 to 150 yards of my work area.
I have really come to like my 2 speed but, as an example yesterday, I was carrying very heavy logs on my s330 (switched to 12-16.5 tires) and the ground was soft. Not only did I sink, I left some ruts.
I'm in a tough situation. I could probably find enough work and stay away from the really rocky terrain but what if? Also, I find that I am working more and more with these larger trees and I am bouncy and tippy in a wheeled machine on unlevel ground. I have been working in and around creeks that flow regardless of the drought and when it is wet, I simply stay home (haven't found a way to get the mini ex to work with the trees yet).

So, I'm very interested in this thread progression. I just turned about 1000 hours on my s330. I have the hulk tires and they are more than 50% with only 1 nail hole (plugged and running slime) and I have done about 3-4 demo jobs with loads of nails. That has been cheap maintenance but I have also sat home 3 out of 5 days for the last few weeks. With a CTL, I could have set up my chipper and moved trees to the chipper if nothing else but I've been unable to get my machine in.

I have tried OTT tracks in the past (loegering trailblazers) but the extra weight and bucket width make me think a CTL would have more power to weight plus my experiences with metal tracks and wet ground got me many complaints back when I ran them.

HMMMM... now you got me thinking. just going to work and doing something and not worrying about what is the right tool (knowing you have traction) makes me think the CTL is the right way to go but how easy is it to destroy a track or get a log into the sprocket?

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 07:19 PM
I can't understand why you're not concerned with plowing snow?:laugh::p

You bring up the 'money pit' and that is what one of the points that may be way over done? What is a set of tires go for and how long is average life? I know on my first 440 the tires were wearing with the steel OTT's.

I will agree that production is why we have these machines but you give me the choice to run the Case/VTS or the Tak I will go to the Case as I like running it better. Now production wise they are neck and neck, both lift the same and really seem to push the same. Money wise it's not a fair comparison as I basically got my VTS for nothing.

I just feel the track machines are getting a bad rap, my little ASL is at 1100 hours and tracks are still fine.


I was very exact in my wording.LOL
Plus I do not think my snow plowing will generate much income either.:rolleyes:


The other problem with this discussion is we all work in different conditions.
Your rocky conditions and my rocky conditions are not the same.

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 07:57 PM
great posts here, I can see evryone speaks from experience. I'll try to get the posting techniques better as I get "older" here at Lawnsite. AWJ states a JD310 is only 50% vs. a tracked machine. Probably so, but a JD 310 is not a HST TLB but rather a full size hoe (not the full size bar fly type). I still maintain that I am slightly less productive to a CTL doing things such as covering a septic, but make up in much more productivity, versatility, at a much less overall cost. Lets see a CTL install a system, dig out rocks, spread load, rake ect. more productivly that a TLB at a cost as effeciently. These are great posts regarding costs I have seen so far. On my TLBs, 1 1500 hrs, the other 157 hours, no where near $3500 in "wear" parts. How much more do people get around here for CTL's vs. TLBs....about the same. 1 Man bands like me usually have TLBs but unless you have a huge company that needs that specific task of moving super quickly in rough terrain (just throwin that out there for operating example), most people here have different set ups. I have never priced a top end CTL but I still think a good TLB and miniX setup is the most productive and cost effective.:weightlifter:

bobcat_ron
01-01-2010, 08:11 PM
All of the new skid steers around my area are all CTL's, no one in their right minds buys useless tires.
I bought my first CTL in 2003 and I can't even function in a tired machine.
I always tell people that you get more work done with a CTL and the tracks are a big cost, but think about how many tires you would go through and who knows, how many jobs you would lose if you just got stuck and spun.

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 08:19 PM
I guess "useless tires" are the same as "expensive tracks" Less than1/2 machines around here are CTLs, thought we are the Granite State. In general, very few wheeled Bobcats too. We are a rocky, stumpy hell up here in NH, I wonder how many jobs I have done more profitably with a TLB rather than a CTL? Mud doesn't stop me, I either have to put it back togethr at the end if I make a mess, or use my miniX to make up for any issues where mud has made access an issue.:clapping:

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 08:35 PM
I guess "useless tires" are the same as "expensive tracks" Less than1/2 machines around here are CTLs, thought we are the Granite State. In general, very few wheeled Bobcats too. We are a rocky, stumpy hell up here in NH, I wonder how many jobs I have done more profitably with a TLB rather than a CTL? Mud doesn't stop me, I either have to put it back togethr at the end if I make a mess, or use my miniX to make up for any issues where mud has made access an issue.:clapping:

The problem is we are talking about wheeled skid steers and tracked skid steers not 4 wd tractors.
You show me any wheeled skid steer that will work productivley in the mud and I will buy it.:nono:

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 08:54 PM
:drinkup:You are right about the topic I guess. I was extolling the virtues of other options besides a skidsteer whether wheeled or not. Keep an open mind as not everyone thinks so highly of them, there options to a CTL, they are not the end all to everything. Mud, yes, but what about everything else non-mud which is about 90% of an everyday user like myself.

Bleed Green
01-01-2010, 09:06 PM
CTL's solve the flat tire problem too as has already been stated. Plus you can work with them in all conditions where with tires you can not work in the mud unless you buy tracks and if you are going to buy OTT why not just buy a track loader and be done with it. Like has been said you will make the extra cost of a CTL up if you have the work for it.

Scag48
01-01-2010, 09:06 PM
You can't compare a TLB to a CTL/MTL in regard to operating cost, IMO. It isn't fair to compare tires to tracks, regardless of the fact that it's a TLB. This is where a whole lot of guys get hung up on the costs. Now, to me, CTL's are only making you more money than a skid steer if you're using them in conditions that a skid steer would be either sitting or less productive. In my mind, there is no application that a TLB would EVER move material faster than a skid steer, and by using my train of thought above, you can also come to the conlusion that a TLB would be way less productive than a CTL/MTL in condtions where a CTL/MTL would be warranted as the best possible machine for the job.

Bleed Green
01-01-2010, 09:11 PM
You can't compare a TLB to a CTL/MTL in regard to operating cost, IMO. It isn't fair to compare tires to tracks, regardless of the fact that it's a TLB. This is where a whole lot of guys get hung up on the costs. Now, to me, CTL's are only making you more money than a skid steer if you're using them in conditions that a skid steer would be either sitting or less productive. In my mind, there is no application that a TLB would EVER move material faster than a skid steer, and by using my train of thought above, you can also come to the conlusion that a TLB would be way less productive than a CTL/MTL in condtions where a CTL/MTL would be warranted as the best possible machine for the job.

Exactly right cause a TLB could not function where a wheeled skid could not function, so once again tracks wins.

stuvecorp
01-01-2010, 09:19 PM
I still like the useless wheel machines and I won't debate the tractor thing because so much of it is what we do and what conditions we run in, everyone is a little different. The last two years I've ran the VTS and it is everything I hoped or expected. This thread was more to debunk all the CTL nonsense out there. I am finding it hard to do everything with one machine or even two and the funny thing is I have thrown rocks at track machines for a long time but everything I have is on tracks.

One crazy thing to me is what a Tak 130 that is 4-5 years old and has 1500 hours will go for low to mid teens, how is this possible?

Junior M
01-01-2010, 09:19 PM
What I dont get, you say your TLB is so versatile, it can dig, backfill, grade, blah blah..

But whats the point of it being able to dig if you've got a mini ex?

Imo, your TLB is doing a CTL/MTL/SSL job, only slower and less effecient..

but again, thats my opinion and we know how those are..

Scag48
01-01-2010, 09:22 PM
The nice thing about TLB's is being able to send 1 machine to the job. They can do just about anything, they're just a little less productive. However, the way you make money with a TLB is that you can do everything you could do with a skid steer and mini but you can do it without a second operator and a second trip back to the shop to grab the other machine.

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 09:25 PM
I guess we all are in agreement that a CTL would be better than a TLB in mud and in just sheer moving dirt, but that has been said over and over again. But like what I said regarding costs and versatlity, no way. So what about mud, who cares. Same with moving dirt, I think I can do it at least 80% as productive and do so much more. Maybe you all own just 1 type of machine and focus on that....mud and moving buckets of mud faster and quicker. Bring your CTL out on the ice plowing, moving large amounts of rock which would eat your tracks and rollers to death, working inthe woods with sharp stumps, or treading lightly. Waht about those tasks? I love hearing how awsome a CTL is in the ideal conditions, but what about the rest when they are just wasting money? I am plowing 15+ driveways tonight...and then moving rocks over ice. I also work year round dirt wise, no track machine will do that. We need a CTL TLB smack down!:cool2:

Gravel Rat
01-01-2010, 09:30 PM
To run a backhoe efficiently to its maximum production you NEED to be a good operator. Watch a operator with lots of experience on a rubber tired hoe and you would be amazed what it can do. Don't expect the same results if you don't have atleast 2-3 years of being a rubber tired hoe operator.

Junior M
01-01-2010, 09:30 PM
I still like the useless wheel machines and I won't debate the tractor thing because so much of it is what we do and what conditions we run in, everyone is a little different. The last two years I've ran the VTS and it is everything I hoped or expected. This thread was more to debunk all the CTL nonsense out there. I am finding it hard to do everything with one machine or even two and the funny thing is I have thrown rocks at track machines for a long time but everything I have is on tracks.

One crazy thing to me is what a Tak 130 that is 4-5 years old and has 1500 hours will go for low to mid teens, how is this possible?
There is alot more to go wrong with a track machine and getting into a high hour machine its hard to tell how it was treated and as you go up in hours in purchasing used machines the more risk you get of something breaking..

Yellow, as far as tracks and logs, the only time I've ever had problems with logs is when I am pushing brush and crap like that, I'll lose one and it'll get under your track and that truck will just spin it out cause it cant get traction on it or you'll just set there and spin.

I am about as careless as you could be with the machines we rent when it comes to what I am running over and a log has never hurt the machine..

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 09:31 PM
:drinkup:You are right about the topic I guess. I was extolling the virtues of other options besides a skidsteer whether wheeled or not. Keep an open mind as not everyone thinks so highly of them, there options to a CTL, they are not the end all to everything. Mud, yes, but what about everything else non-mud which is about 90% of an everyday user like myself.

The problem is down here your L48 TLB just ill not cut it for digging in the summer .It does not have enough power. It takes a full size backhoe to be productive with a 30" bucket or larger. So sure I could mess around with a TLB your size but I would still need my Kx161 so rather than spend 40 grand for a backhoe that will not replace the excavator why not buy a CTL that will speed up my work and open avenues that a TBL cannot do.
So I guess I am saying my Kx 161 and my TL140 will out produce any TLB on the market short of a race down the road. :weightlifter:

Junior M
01-01-2010, 09:32 PM
I guess we all are in agreement that a CTL would be better than a TLB in mud and in just sheer moving dirt, but that has been said over and over again. But like what I said regarding costs and versatlity, no way. So what about mud, who cares. Same with moving dirt, I think I can do it at least 80% as productive and do so much more. Maybe you all own just 1 type of machine and focus on that....mud and moving buckets of mud faster and quicker. Bring your CTL out on the ice plowing, moving large amounts of rock which would eat your tracks and rollers to death, working inthe woods with sharp stumps, or treading lightly. Waht about those tasks? I love hearing how awsome a CTL is in the ideal conditions, but what about the rest when they are just wasting money? I am plowing 15+ driveways tonight...and then moving rocks over ice. I also work year round dirt wise, no track machine will do that. We need a CTL TLB smack down!:cool2:
A ctl can tread lightly? ;)

And as far as being versatile, a CTL is just as versatile as your TLB. It can do all the things your doing with your TLBs.

Its all about the operator when it comes to a CTL..

stuvecorp
01-01-2010, 09:33 PM
I guess we all are in agreement that a CTL would be better than a TLB in mud and in just sheer moving dirt, but that has been said over and over again. But like what I said regarding costs and versatlity, no way. So what about mud, who cares. Same with moving dirt, I think I can do it at least 80% as productive and do so much more. Maybe you all own just 1 type of machine and focus on that....mud and moving buckets of mud faster and quicker. Bring your CTL out on the ice plowing, moving large amounts of rock which would eat your tracks and rollers to death, working inthe woods with sharp stumps, or treading lightly. Waht about those tasks? I love hearing how awsome a CTL is in the ideal conditions, but what about the rest when they are just wasting money? I am plowing 15+ driveways tonight...and then moving rocks over ice. I also work year round dirt wise, no track machine will do that. We need a CTL TLB smack down!:cool2:

That is the hard part, we all do different things but the same.:laugh:

Junior M
01-01-2010, 09:33 PM
The problem is down here your L48 TLB just ill not cut it for digging in the summer .It does not have enough power. It takes a full size backhoe to be productive with a 30" bucket or larger. So sure I could mess around with a TLB your size but I would still need my Kx161 so rather than spend 40 grand for a backhoe that will not replace the excavator why not buy a CTL that will speed up my work and open avenues that a TBL cannot do.
So I guess I am saying my Kx 161 and my TL140 will out produce any TLB on the market short of a race down the road. :weightlifter:
Exactly my point, he bought a mini excavator obviously because it was more effiecent and better at its job..

why not do the same for a SSL sense you are so against tracks?

Scag48
01-01-2010, 09:35 PM
I've run plenty of backhoes, large, small, and there is no way that I'd prefer having one for doing lots of loader work. Versatile? Absolutely. But whatever you're doing with the loader end of a TLB, a skid steer or CTL will do it faster, period. Even if you're not doing production digging with a skid steer or CTL, they're still faster, especially if it's a smaller site. And if you're doing it faster, you can and should be charging more to cover the cost of the wear and tear. Everyone seems to forget that. If you're doing something faster, your hourly rate, so to speak, needs to reflect that.

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 09:43 PM
You can't compare a TLB to a CTL/MTL in regard to operating cost, IMO. It isn't fair to compare tires to tracks, regardless of the fact that it's a TLB. This is where a whole lot of guys get hung up on the costs. Now, to me, CTL's are only making you more money than a skid steer if you're using them in conditions that a skid steer would be either sitting or less productive. In my mind, there is no application that a TLB would EVER move material faster than a skid steer, and by using my train of thought above, you can also come to the conlusion that a TLB would be way less productive than a CTL/MTL in condtions where a CTL/MTL would be warranted as the best possible machine for the job.

The problem is most people are infatuated with billing by the hour. That is and always will be the wrong way to run a small buisness like we are in.
Operating cost per hour may be higher but productivity will be higher so it is all relative.
Scag in your line of work you take on a job and your boss bids x amount per yard of soil moved. So the faster you get done the less hours per yard moved in expenses.
Say you take a small excavator that is good on fuel, not expensive and lasts forever. It will have lower operating costs but will it make you more money?
Why do we alway buy a bigger machine?

stuvecorp
01-01-2010, 09:43 PM
[QUOTE=Junior M;3341789]There is alot more to go wrong with a track machine and getting into a high hour machine its hard to tell how it was treated and as you go up in hours in purchasing used machines the more risk you get of something breaking..

QUOTE]

The only difference is you have tracks instead of tires, right?:) I mean, you can see what condition the tracks are in and sprockets? Think about it, pick up a machine(say it is in average condition) use it for a couple hundred hours a year and if you treat it decently would you ever do anything to the undercarriage?

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 09:44 PM
A CTL will NOT do everything a TBL will Do, where is the 3pt hitch or hoe???? Regarding a TL140 and KX161, a L48 will do all of that except 2' digging depth on the KX, albeit to some degree....with less cost and 1 less machine. Add up the cost of the machines and the cost of the moves, 2 machines.... I love having the versatility of bringing 1 machine to a site. I don;t need to as I have many more, but I can. I cannot think of many jobs I do where I could bring JUST a ctl and handle eveything.

Where are the many opportuniities and options a CTL provides a TLB doesn't, please inform us all. Regarding digging in summer, I am confused. How is it different than digging where my frost goes down 4'. Maybe you need cold beer in the CTL air cab, the 1 thing I need. Perhaps a TLB/ miniX and CTL/miniX are the perfect combo. Hopefully we are not getting off track(hah!), didn't mean to hijack, just pointing out a CTL has alternatives.:)

Gravel Rat
01-01-2010, 09:46 PM
A wheeled skid steer is almost useless maybe if your running on pavement or really hard ground. A CTL/MTL works good on pavement too ya you may get track wear but it sure is easier on the operator.

As I have said this a few times one job I was watching putting in a waterline in. The contractor has a Cat MTL I forget the size it was one size bigger than Rons pussy. The machine glided over the pavement like riding on a cloud. They had a Cat wheeled skid on the same job same conditions the POS bounced around and far less production.

Tracked skid steers were non existant till one of the contractors bought one and lets just say that machine gets more work than any pizz poor wheeled skid steer ever did.

The tracked skid steer can climb slopes that a wheeled skid can't the machine can go over terrian you wouldn't tempt with a wheeled skid.

One of the rental places only rents tracked skid steers.

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 09:48 PM
A CTL will NOT do everything a TBL will Do, where is the 3pt hitch or hoe???? Regarding a TL140 and KX161, a L48 will do all of that except 2' digging depth on the KX, albeit to some degree....with less cost and 1 less machine. Add up the cost of the machines and the cost of the moves, 2 machines.... I love having the versatility of bringing 1 machine to a site. I don;t need to as I have many more, but I can. I cannot think of many jobs I do where I could bring JUST a ctl and handle eveything.

Where are the many opportuniities and options a CTL provides a TLB doesn't, please inform us all. Regarding digging in summer, I am confused. How is it different than digging where my frost goes down 4'. Maybe you need cold beer in the CTL air cab, the 1 thing I need. Perhaps a TLB/ miniX and CTL/miniX are the perfect combo. Hopefully we are not getting off track(hah!), didn't mean to hijack, just pointing out a CTL has alternatives.:)

An L48 will in no way shape or form compete with a KX161 digging.
You are a lunatic if you expect anyone to believe that.
The 161 has twice the bucket breakout and way more crowd force plus way faster cycle times.

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 10:10 PM
AWJ, you seem to be going from 1 extreme to the other. Either a minx is better or a CTL is better than a TLB. My comment was L48 will dig JUST 2' less reach than a KX161/121 +/- but was not impying it was better, stronger, or has more breakout force. We all know it does. My comment basically was it will dig just about everything a KX161 would need to on 80-90% of most jobs including all the big stuff. No CTL will do that. Actualy maybe they do? Do they?

Junior M
01-01-2010, 10:10 PM
An L48 will in no way shape or form compete with a KX161 digging.
You are a lunatic if you expect anyone to believe that.
The 161 has twice the bucket breakout and way more crowd force plus way faster cycle times.
and apparently he's never heard of a quick tach plate?

Sense you seem to be so out of the world of skidsteers, the quick tach to a skid is a 3pt to a tractor!

Oh yeah, they make this attachment for skids to dig with, its real similar to a backhoe.. oh yeah, thats right. A backhoe attachment!

curtisfarmer
01-01-2010, 10:16 PM
Hey Junior, didn't you know TLBs come with QA as well and Hiflow front Hyd.? Even accepts all CTL attachments Do something useful and show me a CTL with QA 12' hoe with ind. action/ w hyd. thumb. Don't shoot from the hip, you may shoot your QA foot.:hammerhead:

Junior M
01-01-2010, 10:28 PM
Hey Junior, didn't you know TLBs come with QA as well and Hiflow front Hyd.? Even accepts all CTL attachments Do something useful and show me a CTL with QA 12' hoe with ind. action/ w hyd. thumb. Don't shoot from the hip, you may shoot your QA foot.:hammerhead:
Its like talking to a wall when talking to you.. :wall

AWJ Services
01-01-2010, 10:36 PM
AWJ, you seem to be going from 1 extreme to the other. Either a minx is better or a CTL is better than a TLB. My comment was L48 will dig JUST 2' less reach than a KX161/121 +/- but was not impying it was better, stronger, or has more breakout force. We all know it does. My comment basically was it will dig just about everything a KX161 would need to on 80-90% of most jobs including all the big stuff. No CTL will do that. Actualy maybe they do? Do they?

It will not do 80-90% of the jobs of a KX 161.
It might do like 20 or 30% of the jobs I do but they are not in the same ball park.
On reach the Kx 161 does 20" 6 " the L48 does 172 inches.
Reach is everything. Thats over 6 foot.

Junior M
01-01-2010, 10:40 PM
It will not do 80-90% of the jobs of a KX 161.
It might do like 20 or 30% of the jobs I do but they are not in the same ball park.
On reach the Kx 161 does 20" 6 " the L48 does 172 inches.
Reach is everything. Thats over 6 foot.
a whole 6ft?! Wow!

What have I been missing?

better say screw mini excavators and CTLs and pick me up one of those!

:rolleyes:

Gravel Rat
01-01-2010, 11:33 PM
What are you little girls arguing about :laugh:

I have seen what a 161 Kubota can do and it can do alot of work. A good machine for its size.

stuvecorp
01-01-2010, 11:52 PM
I looked up a L48, no way I would spend what they are asking for them. Okay they have a three point or backhoe, are you using the front loader and the three point/backhoe at the same time?

I'm more interested in CTL's right now...

Fieldman12
01-02-2010, 01:54 AM
Here is a issue with both a skidsteer and CTL. They both overall don't have as long of a life span as much bigger machines such as backhoes,bulldozers, track loaders, wheel loaders and trackhoes. I have read this in I dont know how many excavating magazines. This in my opinion right of the bat makes it harder for each of us to make as much money when where trading for another machine every so many years. Granted there is many old Bobcats out there still runnning with allot of hours but just generally speaking for all brands they dont have a long life span as other machines. Now as far as wheel skid steers versus a CTL in most applications of heavy digging or working in mud the CTL is going to be overall more productive and I think most would agree upon that. If spreading say gravel, pushing snow, and working around rocks allot the skidsteer would be the better choice. There is no doubt in my mind a CTL will allow you to work more of the year, and be a little quicker at some jobs. I have several close buddies that have had both CTL's, and wheeled machines. The biggest complaing I here from all of them is the CTL's are costing them a fortune in repairs and it does not seem to matter which brand. Allot of them are trading for new machines each year just to avoid having to do expensive repairs on the machine. One buddy tried to keep his CTL for a second season. Well both planatarie drives went out. The dealer worked with him on price but it still cost him over $5400 in repairs and him doing the work himself. After all this issue he also had metal shavings all through the system. They flushed the system out and did everything the dealer said to do to get the system clean. Well turned out it messed up all kinds of valves. Decided to trade it in for a new machine. Anyway I think if we could get a CTL to have more of a long lived life as say a big track loader and also the resale similar to a bulldozer I think a CTL would be for most applications the best choice all the way around. At this time the added extra cost of the CTL new, the terrible resale value, and the high failure rate of expensive parts on the machines scares me. As my one buddy said its good that he has all the big equipment making money because how many guys could just have a CTL and spend $6,000 in repairs on it and stay profitalble for long? I dont think there would be many. Most of the guys I know are saying the wheel skid steer, with the VTS system is the best route to go at this time.

Fieldman12
01-02-2010, 02:07 AM
I think also in say the next seven years CTL' reliability will be much improved and I think that in itself will make the machine worth much more in resale. I think that may be what some people may not realize is the reason the low resale is because the reliability of the machine has gratley dropped once that machine gets some hours on it. I just think lets say a guy buys a CTL and keeps it for two years before he is ready to trade. Lets say he paid $50,000 and now it's only worth trade in of $22,000. That would be a loss of $14,000 for each year. That does not include the most likely higher price of the new replacement machine or any possible repairs. We will hope though in that time it did not have any major failures and if so they where repaired under warranty. Anyway now think of that you have to make $14,000 dollars each of those years just to cover the cost of loss in value of the machine before you can even start to make anything. I guess what IM saying is I think even though the machine is more productive than a wheel machine and allows you to work more of the year allot of that will be a total wash when having to take out $14,000 of what ever that machine brought in for income that year. Granted I know if we traded a wheel machine in for a new one every two years there will be a loss some in resale there but the loss is usually much less that a CTL and plus the wheeled machine is much cheaper to buy new. I guess I dont only look at the machine from a productive stand point but also the most important factor to me is dollar amount.

Scag48
01-02-2010, 04:17 AM
The problem is most people are infatuated with billing by the hour. That is and always will be the wrong way to run a small buisness like we are in.
Operating cost per hour may be higher but productivity will be higher so it is all relative.
Scag in your line of work you take on a job and your boss bids x amount per yard of soil moved. So the faster you get done the less hours per yard moved in expenses.
Say you take a small excavator that is good on fuel, not expensive and lasts forever. It will have lower operating costs but will it make you more money?
Why do we alway buy a bigger machine?

No you're right, I should have clarified. I said that your hourly rate must go up, but what I ultimately meant is that productivity increases therefore your hourly revenue increases with an increase in production. We're on the same page, man.

AWJ Services
01-02-2010, 11:15 AM
I think also in say the next seven years CTL' reliability will be much improved and I think that in itself will make the machine worth much more in resale. I think that may be what some people may not realize is the reason the low resale is because the reliability of the machine has gratley dropped once that machine gets some hours on it. I just think lets say a guy buys a CTL and keeps it for two years before he is ready to trade. Lets say he paid $50,000 and now it's only worth trade in of $22,000. That would be a loss of $14,000 for each year. That does not include the most likely higher price of the new replacement machine or any possible repairs. We will hope though in that time it did not have any major failures and if so they where repaired under warranty. Anyway now think of that you have to make $14,000 dollars each of those years just to cover the cost of loss in value of the machine before you can even start to make anything. I guess what IM saying is I think even though the machine is more productive than a wheel machine and allows you to work more of the year allot of that will be a total wash when having to take out $14,000 of what ever that machine brought in for income that year. Granted I know if we traded a wheel machine in for a new one every two years there will be a loss some in resale there but the loss is usually much less that a CTL and plus the wheeled machine is much cheaper to buy new. I guess I dont only look at the machine from a productive stand point but also the most important factor to me is dollar amount.

We can all make up imaginary numbers so that our argument suits our agenda but the reality is you as well as many do not own a CTL and you base your opinion off of the worst case scenario you can find. I am going on year 4 and have not replaced anything. The machine is productive and earns me well in excess of 200 dollars per hour it has worked.
I paid 48k and it is still worth in the mid 20-30K .
Sure the rash of repo's and dealers dumping there older product artificially lowered the value of all machines but that is pretty much over and the market is stabilising here and it will everywhere soon.

I am curious what kind of machine is it?

YellowDogSVC
01-02-2010, 12:40 PM
I still don't see ANY CTLs in this part of Texas. I wish I did so i could ask questions. My dealer rarely has any in stock when I'm there and not a lot of info from guys running them in the hill country.
Clearly, CTL's are more productive for most applications. If the machine is making you money and you still have to put a little aside for future repairs isn't that worth it?

Junior M
01-02-2010, 01:16 PM
I still don't see ANY CTLs in this part of Texas. I wish I did so i could ask questions. My dealer rarely has any in stock when I'm there and not a lot of info from guys running them in the hill country.
Clearly, CTL's are more productive for most applications. If the machine is making you money and you still have to put a little aside for future repairs isn't that worth it?
Dont forget a CTL bills more than the typical skidsteer, so not only are you still making money, but that extra money you make will help offset what you've got to set to the side for needed stuff down the road(tracks)

My advice for you would be to tell your salesman your interested in a CTL but not to sure how it work and see if he'll let you take one to go play and see what it will do and how it will handle..

mudmaker
01-02-2010, 01:19 PM
This is an interesting thread. I really don't know that much about CTL's, but can see how they are more productive in many situtations.

Have any of you guys bought a CTL with some hours on them. They seem to go cheap on ironplanet and just thought it may be a way to get into one to see how it would impact a guys business.

YellowDogSVC
01-02-2010, 01:36 PM
Dont forget a CTL bills more than the typical skidsteer, so not only are you still making money, but that extra money you make will help offset what you've got to set to the side for needed stuff down the road(tracks)

My advice for you would be to tell your salesman your interested in a CTL but not to sure how it work and see if he'll let you take one to go play and see what it will do and how it will handle..

im still waiting to hear about track options...

Junior M
01-02-2010, 01:45 PM
im still waiting to hear about track options...
track options? ;)

Like different style of tracks?

bobcat_ron
01-02-2010, 02:33 PM
I wished my Dad had bought a little Takeuchi TL26 back in 1998, man we would have had so much more work with out sinking up to our bellies in mud.
A CTL/MTL is an angel in disguise.

stuvecorp
01-02-2010, 03:04 PM
We can all make up imaginary numbers so that our argument suits our agenda but the reality is you as well as many do not own a CTL and you base your opinion off of the worst case scenario you can find. I am going on year 4 and have not replaced anything. The machine is productive and earns me well in excess of 200 dollars per hour it has worked.
I paid 48k and it is still worth in the mid 20-30K .
Sure the rash of repo's and dealers dumping there older product artificially lowered the value of all machines but that is pretty much over and the market is stabilising here and it will everywhere soon.

I am curious what kind of machine is it?

How many hours do you have now? I'm also interested in hearing from Chris, as he puts the hours on in rough conditions.

AWJ Services
01-02-2010, 03:14 PM
I have close to 800 hours. There was a really bad year mixed in those 4 years because of the economy and watering ban.
The rollers sprockets and tracks look really good.
I do not work by the hour with the machine. It will sit first. I flat bill it by the day for contractors but never by the hour because it rarely puts more than 4 hours in a day on the machine.
Guys with wheeled skid steers will work for 45 an hour here and have ruined that market. The good thing is with the collapse of the building industry the compact industry here is changing. There had been a whole sub culture of contarctors that basically where nothing more than paper contractors. They dictated price almost acting like nothing more than a broker. They are gone now.

YellowDogSVC
01-02-2010, 03:29 PM
I wished my Dad had bought a little Takeuchi TL26 back in 1998, man we would have had so much more work with out sinking up to our bellies in mud.
A CTL/MTL is an angel in disguise.

you work in the mud a lot. How hard is it to clean out a CTL's undercarriage?

mrsops
01-02-2010, 03:46 PM
I Would lose a ton of work if i did not have a ctl machine. At one time i even kept over the tire tracks on my s185 all year round that's how saturated everything was one year.. I'm on my third ctl machine bought our first one in 2001 then another in 2004 and my last one in 2008. I have had good luck with these machines.. Besides changing the tracks every 900-1000 hrs and a sprocket here and there i haven't had any major issues with the undercarragie that would ever make me not buy another ctl machine. I also traded my first one in close to 2000 hours and my last one in at 1700 hrs

Everyone around my area owns a ctl machine its unbelievable and it has hurt my rental business as well. we used to get 650 a day for my t190 that is now down to 600 a day because there are bone heads going out with the same machine for 500-550 a day.. Some guys are out there to just ruin everything.

I dont charge by the hour i feel that's an absolute waste.. What will i do with my operator when he starts at 8 and is done at 10?? ok i bill out for 2 hours coming out to $150 sorry not worth it then i have to pay my operator for a half day I'm losing money plus the fact he will be mad only working a half.. I charge half day or full day. You finish at 10 you get charged for a half. I finish at 2 you get charged for a full day.

At one time we had 5-6 machines out everyday working when things were booming around here it. Maybe one day it will happen again.

AWJ Services
01-02-2010, 03:54 PM
you work in the mud a lot. How hard is it to clean out a CTL's undercarriage?

I never clean mine except for when I wash the whole machine.
I have been in mud the last 4 months.

bobcat_ron
01-02-2010, 04:31 PM
you work in the mud a lot. How hard is it to clean out a CTL's undercarriage?

My Bobcat I was using a pressure washer, and you still need to use one on the M Series, the Cat I used a garden hose, and the Takeuchi I just use a spade.

curtisfarmer
01-02-2010, 04:55 PM
What is the typical tracks and UC rebuild cost at say 1,000 hours and 2,000 hrs?

On another point, do any of you guys use a hoe with your CTLs and how much do they cost?

I just finished plowing 15+ driveways and roads, we are getting hammered with a 3 day event. Anyone plow with a CTL other than flat areas?

talus
01-02-2010, 05:26 PM
I never clean mine except for when I wash the whole machine.
I have been in mud the last 4 months.

Ahhhhhhhhh my eyes. I hate reading such horrible words.:cry:
:laugh:

stuvecorp
01-02-2010, 05:44 PM
you work in the mud a lot. How hard is it to clean out a CTL's undercarriage?

The VTS collects a lot of stuff but is pretty easy to clean out. I get most with a shovel and then spray the rest clean.

AWJ Services
01-02-2010, 06:31 PM
Ahhhhhhhhh my eyes. I hate reading such horrible words.:cry:
:laugh:

It just does not need it and I refuse to clean it in the cold weather.:)

In the warmer months I wash and wax them at least every month or 2.

AWJ Services
01-02-2010, 06:39 PM
Here is how it looks right now.

Junior M
01-02-2010, 07:04 PM
Here is how it looks right now.
a hot pressure washer would take that right off! :) :laugh:

curtisfarmer
01-02-2010, 07:26 PM
Cold weather in GA? How cold is cold. In NH if you don't muck them out everynight.............could be till spring until you get a chance. I don't care if my tracks have some crap in them but if they are rubbing on the inside of the tracks, time to get the hand spade and a hose. Water expands 8% when frozen and you risk the tracks getting tension on them from expanding frozen mud. It sucks, but on your hands and knees...or else a posible thrown track.

Junior M
01-02-2010, 07:33 PM
Cold weather in GA? How cold is cold. In NH if you don't muck them out everynight.............could be till spring until you get a chance. I don't care if my tracks have some crap in them but if they are rubbing on the inside of the tracks, time to get the hand spade and a hose. Water expands 8% when frozen and you risk the tracks getting tension on them from expanding frozen mud. It sucks, but on your hands and knees...or else a posible thrown track.
Wouldnt you be more worried about the undercarriage freezing up than the mud expanding and throwing a track?

Which btw, I'd like to see cause that'd be weird as hell.. I know Dad has had undercarriages freeze up on him when in ohio, but never throw a track cause it was frozen?

AWJ Services
01-02-2010, 07:38 PM
Cold weather in GA? How cold is cold. In NH if you don't muck them out everynight.............could be till spring until you get a chance. I don't care if my tracks have some crap in them but if they are rubbing on the inside of the tracks, time to get the hand spade and a hose. Water expands 8% when frozen and you risk the tracks getting tension on them from expanding frozen mud. It sucks, but on your hands and knees...or else a posible thrown track.

Below 50 is too cold for me.:)

curtisfarmer
01-02-2010, 07:46 PM
I don't have CTL...miniX...but when the mud freezes near main frame (at least on Kubotas) is rises against the sloped main frame and rises the tracks up. Left unattended and poor operator it can throw the track easy if left to accumulate and a couple of freeze cycles. Doesn't seem like alot, but 8% expansion can really cause some problems. Same with mud on drive motor housing as well. MinXs only have a few rollers compared to CTLs and never had a problem of a frozen undercarriage. I like Rons 2X4 trick to break out the rollers from frozen mud. We operate here with 5+/- months of temps which can freeze mud and cause havock. Also, DOT frowns with trailering tracked machines with huge clobs of mud falling of onto the road.

curtisfarmer
01-02-2010, 07:53 PM
Still looking for thoughts on QA hoes for CTLs. 1 of my buds with a wheeled Bobcat (853?) is envious as hell at my hoe and awsome custom thumb for TLB and has been toying with the idea of getting one for his Bobcat. Anyone run 1 for their setup?

stuvecorp
01-02-2010, 08:20 PM
Here is how it looks right now.

Your tracks are pretty loose, do you run them that way or was it before you tightened them up? The track tread still looks fine.

mrsops
01-02-2010, 08:37 PM
Below 50 is too cold for me.:)

O boy you would love the 15 degree weather where having with 40mph winds tonight :laugh:...

AWJ Services
01-02-2010, 09:39 PM
Your tracks are pretty loose, do you run them that way or was it before you tightened them up? The track tread still looks fine.

Thats the way I run them.If you run them tight you will have premature wear. They are a touch loose but they alway droop like that.

AWJ Services
01-02-2010, 09:40 PM
O boy you would love the 15 degree weather where having with 40mph winds tonight :laugh:...

It is in the teens here tonight. This is to cold for me.

YellowDogSVC
01-02-2010, 10:39 PM
Below 50 is too cold for me.:)

aint that the truth

YellowDogSVC
01-02-2010, 10:39 PM
O boy you would love the 15 degree weather where having with 40mph winds tonight :laugh:...

you can keep that up north. I'll take 90 deg, hot and muggy.

ioilyouin
01-02-2010, 11:07 PM
Everyone here is speaking from years of experience. You are doing what works for you. Different soils/terrain/conditions/customers/etc. all play an important role in your decision as to what to run. As for me, I'm running an A-300 because of skidding issues. I have a L3300 Kubota and that work alone for several years. I looked into a larger tractor when buying, but to get what I wanted the A was the way to go. You do what works for you. There are several asphalt companies here running tracks on pavement strictly. I don't understand it, but at the end of the day if they are happy then so be it.

talus
01-03-2010, 01:48 AM
Here is how it looks right now.

I don't know how you sleep at night. That would drive me insane. Yes I will admit I have severe OCD on certain things. I will probably replace bearings due to water contamination so go figure.
I was washing my truck last week in the rain and my neighbor asked me what the hell I was doing.
I replied. Washing my truck.
He said It's raining.
I said yeah I know but the truck is gonna get wet when I wash it anyway.
He had a puzzeled look on his face and went in the house.:laugh:

Junior M
01-03-2010, 01:54 AM
I don't know how you sleep at night. That would drive me insane. Yes I will admit I have severe OCD on certain things. I will probably replace bearings due to water contamination so go figure.
I was washing my truck last week in the rain and my neighbor asked me what the hell I was doing.
I replied. Washing my truck.
He said It's raining.
I said yeah I know but the truck is gonna get wet when I wash it anyway.
He had a puzzeled look on his face and went in the house.:laugh:
I know I am OCD about my truck, but dam son, you got it bad! :dizzy:

stuvecorp
01-03-2010, 01:57 AM
I don't know how you sleep at night. That would drive me insane. Yes I will admit I have severe OCD on certain things. I will probably replace bearings due to water contamination so go figure.
I was washing my truck last week in the rain and my neighbor asked me what the hell I was doing.
I replied. Washing my truck.
He said It's raining.
I said yeah I know but the truck is gonna get wet when I wash it anyway.
He had a puzzeled look on his face and went in the house.:laugh:

Ha, we know the real story - you were sent out to wash the truck.:laugh::)

talus
01-03-2010, 01:59 AM
Junior. I put on a full set of rain gear and wash underneath the truck. With a sponge and a pressure washer. I'm a sick sick man.:cry:

Junior M
01-03-2010, 02:37 AM
Junior. I put on a full set of rain gear and wash underneath the truck. With a sponge and a pressure washer. I'm a sick sick man.:cry:
Holy crap, my friends tell me I got it bad cause I take the seats out to vacuum..

I never go that far! They'd really call me OCD if I did that.. :laugh:

Steiner
01-03-2010, 02:42 AM
What we need is a per hour cost comparison of TLB, CTL, SS with 2,000 hours being average life. Someone fill this in with some more accurate data:

----------Like for example an L48:

Purchase price (US average) 45,000
Maintenance over 2,000 hours 5,000
Average trade in value 25,000

Total operating cost 25,000/2,000 hours

Cost per Hour 12.5 dollars per hour

---------ROC 2,500lb CTL

Purchase Price (US average) 60,000
Maintenance (uncr.wear parts) 8,000
Average trade in value 17,000

Total Operating cost 51,000/2,000 hours

Cost per hour 25.5 dollars per hour


Now here is where the arguments start. Many on this discussion agree the CTL is faster at hogging dirt, and is more useful in sticky situations so lets assume it is on magnitude one and a half times more productive at a comparable task than a TLB. Then we would be saying it would effectively produce 3,000 comparable work hours to a TLB in the same time frame. Now this lowers the cost of the CTL to 17 dollars per hour.

What about if you believe a CTL is 2 times or 3 times as productive?

Now the question really is>>>>>> How much more productive is a CTL than a TLB in hogging dirt in a relatively average site, with average underfoot conditions FOR YOU AND YOUR COMPANY? And here in lies the problem. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AVERAGE. Each guy in this forum experiences different conditions, hell we all experience them job to job.

This is a personal question.

Everyone should sit down with a comparison chart and see for themselves.

Lets not even talk about the TLB multi-use advantage. Too many variables.

talus
01-03-2010, 03:22 AM
Ha, we know the real story - you were sent out to wash the truck.:laugh::)

Ha HA. Nope. Devil Womans 4 runner is nasty. I tried keeping it clean for her but it's not a possibility. Apple cores and banana peels lurk under the seats or on the floor. Been there for days/weeks. She is a slob when it comes to her car. I spend as little time in it as I have to.:hammerhead:

Fieldman12
01-03-2010, 05:05 AM
We can all make up imaginary numbers so that our argument suits our agenda but the reality is you as well as many of you do not own a CTL and you base your opinion off of the worst case scenario you can find. I am going on year 4 and have not replaced anything. The machine is productive and earns me well in excess of 200 dollars per hour it has worked.
I paid 48k and it is still worth in the mid 20-30K .
Sure the rash of repo's and dealers dumping there older product artificially lowered the value of all machines but that is pretty much over and the market is stabilising here and it will everywhere soon.

I am curious what kind of machine is it?


True I dont own a CTL machine. I am however on a very regular basis around allot of the different CTL brands, I see how they are used, in what conditions, and I see there maintenance schedule. I must admit the Takeuchi brand is the only brand I dont here very many complaints about. Im assuming that is the brands you have? The one my buddy has which makes his 3rd machine is a Deere 322. He has looked at switching to another brand but the guys we know that run Bobcat,Cat,New Holland, Case and so on are having similar issues. Would I like to have a CTL? You bet I would but Im waiting until they get more reliable and resale is better before I choose to purchase one. As far as bidding jobs or charging by the hour really is not much different between a CTL versus a skidsteer. Yes I may be able to get done a little quicker with a CTL but does not benefit me much unless I am bidding the job and even then the base price I give is probably not gonna be much different. Also I think you mentioned somewhere your machine has 800 hours. Even though that is not brand new it should be a long way from being worn out so Im not sure that is a fair comparison so far. I think a 1000 hours and after is when you will see more on how well the machine is. I know by then it will need tracks but so would a skid steer need tires. Im just saying overall they do get the job done quicker and you can work more weeks or maybe even months of the year. Im just saying they cost more up front, there resale is much less than should be, and there life expectancy is not long lived. Another point i will make is that I take my machine out on jobs that are really to wet for a skidsteer and CTL both allot of times. I think that even though if I was to buy a CTL so I could work more of the year for the type of work I do allot of (grading) I would not be able to work more anyway cause of the mud.

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 10:11 AM
I have to go plow snow...again, but I have been thinking about this production/ productivity factor we all discuss. I don't know about you guys, but I am never really so busy that I am backlogged for months, weeks, whatever with jobs which require pure production...and with good size jobs you need to schedule certain task, subs, and materials. Otherwise I would bring in real equipment such as dozers, loaders or whatever the true production tool would be. Things are scheduled in the construction world and landscaping too. I guess my point is how many people have so many jobs that they are blasting them out, a couple a day, indefinetly which would make production and productivity a TRUE variable. Load up, unload, blast some dirt around, load back up, unload, blast some dirt or whaevr the task is, and so on....for ever which would make a machine which is X% more productive worthwhile, or at least argueing that it is the way to go. I do too many thing work wise to enjoy that luxery. I guess that is what I have been thinking, if it takes a little longer in a cheaper machine, are you not better off if you dont NEED the top o line super duty whatever? Got to go plow snow....in a machine with no cab and winds out of the east at 44mph!!

dozerman21
01-03-2010, 10:18 AM
What we need is a per hour cost comparison of TLB, CTL, SS with 2,000 hours being average life. Someone fill this in with some more accurate data:

----------Like for example an L48:

Purchase price (US average) 45,000
Maintenance over 2,000 hours 5,000
Average trade in value 25,000

Total operating cost 25,000/2,000 hours

Cost per Hour 12.5 dollars per hour

---------ROC 2,500lb CTL

Purchase Price (US average) 60,000
Maintenance (uncr.wear parts) 8,000
Average trade in value 17,000

Total Operating cost 51,000/2,000 hours

Cost per hour 25.5 dollars per hour


Now here is where the arguments start. Many on this discussion agree the CTL is faster at hogging dirt, and is more useful in sticky situations so lets assume it is on magnitude one and a half times more productive at a comparable task than a TLB. Then we would be saying it would effectively produce 3,000 comparable work hours to a TLB in the same time frame. Now this lowers the cost of the CTL to 17 dollars per hour.

What about if you believe a CTL is 2 times or 3 times as productive?

Now the question really is>>>>>> How much more productive is a CTL than a TLB in hogging dirt in a relatively average site, with average underfoot conditions FOR YOU AND YOUR COMPANY? And here in lies the problem. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AVERAGE. Each guy in this forum experiences different conditions, hell we all experience them job to job.

This is a personal question.

Everyone should sit down with a comparison chart and see for themselves.

Lets not even talk about the TLB multi-use advantage. Too many variables.


I can understand the skid vs. CTL debates, although they have been hashed over and over... but I don't get the TLB vs. skid or CTL debate (this isn't directed at Steiner, just the general topic). They are two totally different animals. We use all three, actually. I couldn't imagine trying to do the work I do with a CTL with a TLB, and vice versa. The most common machine on here that people own is a skid/CTL, and a TLB wouldn't work as a replacement in most cases. I think TLB's are great, but to me they're more of a niche, one man show machine even though they're very versatile.

Fuel consumption also needs to be considered when figuring operation costs.

Junior M
01-03-2010, 10:44 AM
I have to go plow snow...again, but I have been thinking about this production/ productivity factor we all discuss. I don't know about you guys, but I am never really so busy that I am backlogged for months, weeks, whatever with jobs which require pure production...and with good size jobs you need to schedule certain task, subs, and materials. Otherwise I would bring in real equipment such as dozers, loaders or whatever the true production tool would be. Things are scheduled in the construction world and landscaping too. I guess my point is how many people have so many jobs that they are blasting them out, a couple a day, indefinetly which would make production and productivity a TRUE variable. Load up, unload, blast some dirt around, load back up, unload, blast some dirt or whaevr the task is, and so on....for ever which would make a machine which is X% more productive worthwhile, or at least argueing that it is the way to go. I do too many thing work wise to enjoy that luxery. I guess that is what I have been thinking, if it takes a little longer in a cheaper machine, are you not better off if you dont NEED the top o line super duty whatever? Got to go plow snow....in a machine with no cab and winds out of the east at 44mph!!
I know of one guy like that.......

Chris....

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 10:56 AM
I don't think the debate was a true comparison performance - versatility wise, but rather was CTL the way to go and another subdiscusion that in light of high costs operating if a cheaper alterntive (such as TLB) was avialable. At least that was my interest in finding out and hearing opinions. :waving:

twward
01-03-2010, 11:20 AM
I know this is a long URL address but it is extremely accurate when determining operating cost. Even if you are not comparing CTLs, you can put in your personal specifications and requirements and compare two different style machines. .........What ever suits your needs.

I hope this helps when determining your figures. (It is a microsoft excel file.)

http://www.casece.com/wps/portal/casece/IDVGallery?product=CompactTrackLoaders&brandsite_brand=CaseCE&brandsite_language=en&category=Products&param=Products/CompactTrackLoaders&brandsite_geo=NA&displayContent=%2FCaseCE%2FCommon%2FDocument%2FOperationCost

AWJ Services
01-03-2010, 11:52 AM
I don't know how you sleep at night. That would drive me insane. Yes I will admit I have severe OCD on certain things. I will probably replace bearings due to water contamination so go figure.
I was washing my truck last week in the rain and my neighbor asked me what the hell I was doing.
I replied. Washing my truck.
He said It's raining.
I said yeah I know but the truck is gonna get wet when I wash it anyway.
He had a puzzeled look on his face and went in the house.:laugh:

I have other responsibilities that are more important than cleaning a peice of equipment. Not meant as a stab at you are anyone but when you have 3 kids, a buisness to run, a wife who pulls 3 12 hour night shifts leaving me in charge of a bunch of cooking , cleaning, shopping and throw in things that I would rather do than wash equipment leaves me little time for being OCD over a peice of metal.:)

AWJ Services
01-03-2010, 12:00 PM
I have to go plow snow...again, but I have been thinking about this production/ productivity factor we all discuss. I don't know about you guys, but I am never really so busy that I am backlogged for months, weeks, whatever with jobs which require pure production...and with good size jobs you need to schedule certain task, subs, and materials. Otherwise I would bring in real equipment such as dozers, loaders or whatever the true production tool would be. Things are scheduled in the construction world and landscaping too. I guess my point is how many people have so many jobs that they are blasting them out, a couple a day, indefinetly which would make production and productivity a TRUE variable. Load up, unload, blast some dirt around, load back up, unload, blast some dirt or whaevr the task is, and so on....for ever which would make a machine which is X% more productive worthwhile, or at least argueing that it is the way to go. I do too many thing work wise to enjoy that luxery. I guess that is what I have been thinking, if it takes a little longer in a cheaper machine, are you not better off if you dont NEED the top o line super duty whatever? Got to go plow snow....in a machine with no cab and winds out of the east at 44mph!!

I have a Tractor that will do a bunch of my jobs, costs nothing to run literally, and is paid for but I would much rather get the job done and go home rather than spend all day enjoying the money I think I am saving.

AWJ Services
01-03-2010, 12:02 PM
True I dont own a CTL machine. I am however on a very regular basis around allot of the different CTL brands, I see how they are used, in what conditions, and I see there maintenance schedule. I must admit the Takeuchi brand is the only brand I dont here very many complaints about. Im assuming that is the brands you have? The one my buddy has which makes his 3rd machine is a Deere 322. He has looked at switching to another brand but the guys we know that run Bobcat,Cat,New Holland, Case and so on are having similar issues. Would I like to have a CTL? You bet I would but Im waiting until they get more reliable and resale is better before I choose to purchase one. As far as bidding jobs or charging by the hour really is not much different between a CTL versus a skidsteer. Yes I may be able to get done a little quicker with a CTL but does not benefit me much unless I am bidding the job and even then the base price I give is probably not gonna be much different. Also I think you mentioned somewhere your machine has 800 hours. Even though that is not brand new it should be a long way from being worn out so Im not sure that is a fair comparison so far. I think a 1000 hours and after is when you will see more on how well the machine is. I know by then it will need tracks but so would a skid steer need tires. Im just saying overall they do get the job done quicker and you can work more weeks or maybe even months of the year. Im just saying they cost more up front, there resale is much less than should be, and there life expectancy is not long lived. Another point i will make is that I take my machine out on jobs that are really to wet for a skidsteer and CTL both allot of times. I think that even though if I was to buy a CTL so I could work more of the year for the type of work I do allot of (grading) I would not be able to work more anyway cause of the mud.

So you are seeing other brands with Planetary problems and maint costs in the neighborhood of 14k every 1000 hours?

AWJ Services
01-03-2010, 12:08 PM
What we need is a per hour cost comparison of TLB, CTL, SS with 2,000 hours being average life. Someone fill this in with some more accurate data:

----------Like for example an L48:

Purchase price (US average) 45,000
Maintenance over 2,000 hours 5,000
Average trade in value 25,000

Total operating cost 25,000/2,000 hours

Cost per Hour 12.5 dollars per hour

---------ROC 2,500lb CTL

Purchase Price (US average) 60,000
Maintenance (uncr.wear parts) 8,000
Average trade in value 17,000

Total Operating cost 51,000/2,000 hours

Cost per hour 25.5 dollars per hour


Now here is where the arguments start. Many on this discussion agree the CTL is faster at hogging dirt, and is more useful in sticky situations so lets assume it is on magnitude one and a half times more productive at a comparable task than a TLB. Then we would be saying it would effectively produce 3,000 comparable work hours to a TLB in the same time frame. Now this lowers the cost of the CTL to 17 dollars per hour.

What about if you believe a CTL is 2 times or 3 times as productive?

Now the question really is>>>>>> How much more productive is a CTL than a TLB in hogging dirt in a relatively average site, with average underfoot conditions FOR YOU AND YOUR COMPANY? And here in lies the problem. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AVERAGE. Each guy in this forum experiences different conditions, hell we all experience them job to job.

This is a personal question.

Everyone should sit down with a comparison chart and see for themselves.

Lets not even talk about the TLB multi-use advantage. Too many variables.

No one in there right mind purchases a peice of equipment based off of operating costs unless it is directly related to income produced.

There also is not a large enough pool of machines with over 2000 hours to collect accurate data from on Lawnsite.

Trade in values are subject to many variables that can artificially raise or lower the value of the product based off of a dealers buisness practices.

YellowDogSVC
01-03-2010, 01:47 PM
I have a little side note about production.

When I went from a Bobcat s300 single speed skid to an s330 with two speed and ride control, I literally doubled my speed when moving materials (I clean up large logs and brush from other tree companies over large areas).
Even though I doubled my production on some tasks, I didn't see how or where I could double my rates or even raise them that much. I think for many tasks, a customer may not know the difference between company A with a worn out skid vs. company B with powerful new CTL. The customer is still likely to go with the cheap guy so you would really need to be able to make money with the more expensive machine.
I am personally contemplating a CTL. I spent hours going over OTT track scenarios and haven't found anything that will do all that I want it to. The CTL seems like it would do most of what I want except for the two speed and extremely rocky jobs.
So, it's not as easy to figure out operating costs. You also have to figure on what you will give up in addition to the extra costs incurred with the CTL system.

talus
01-03-2010, 02:40 PM
I have other responsibilities that are more important than cleaning a peice of equipment. Not meant as a stab at you are anyone but when you have 3 kids, a buisness to run, a wife who pulls 3 12 hour night shifts leaving me in charge of a bunch of cooking , cleaning, shopping and throw in things that I would rather do than wash equipment leaves me little time for being OCD over a peice of metal.:)

I was half kidding with you. There have been days where I haven't been able to get rid of the mud out of the tracks as I wanted to. Mostly now because of my son and the fatherly duties that go along with it. Never mind having three to chase after:dizzy: The Takeuchi u/c is probably not as sensitive of the mud as the ASV is. I do like to keep things clean and shiny. Isn't that red Georgia clay a pain to get off once it dries?

AWJ Services
01-03-2010, 03:34 PM
I was half kidding with you. There have been days where I haven't been able to get rid of the mud out of the tracks as I wanted to. Mostly now because of my son and the fatherly duties that go along with it. Never mind having three to chase after:dizzy: The Takeuchi u/c is probably not as sensitive of the mud as the ASV is. I do like to keep things clean and shiny. Isn't that red Georgia clay a pain to get off once it dries?

I did not mean it to come across as offensive. trust me I used to wash, wax and polish everything I owned.:)
I wish I spent more time cleaning my equipment and it is a good habit to have.
Oh that Ga red clay is a pain to clean once dry. It is like concrete.
I usually take something and start knocking it loose till I get close to the bottom then I get the pressure washer.

DUSTYCEDAR
01-03-2010, 03:56 PM
tools cost money to run

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 04:29 PM
A local rental hardware store boght a CAT CTL and I bumped into a guy who rented it to dig out foundations from existing houses. He said the first day he used it it didn't do much due to the hard pan soil conditions. He said while operating he noticed all these little black things in the dirt. After realizing the CTL would cut it and he needed a low track loader without cab and ROPs he stopped and got out of the machine, Only then he realized those little black things where tread bars off the tracks. YIKES!;) I didn't find out how the store reacted, but I wonder in general how rental stores deal with the track beating issue.

YellowDogSVC
01-03-2010, 04:45 PM
A local rental hardware store boght a CAT CTL and I bumped into a guy who rented it to dig out foundations from existing houses. He said the first day he used it it didn't do much due to the hard pan soil conditions. He said while operating he noticed all these little black things in the dirt. After realizing the CTL would cut it and he needed a low track loader without cab and ROPs he stopped and got out of the machine, Only then he realized those little black things where tread bars off the tracks. YIKES!;) I didn't find out how the store reacted, but I wonder in general how rental stores deal with the track beating issue.

was it a CAT ctl or mtl? I've seen the mtl tracks fall apart like that but haven't heard about ctl tracks falling apart that quick.

bobcat_ron
01-03-2010, 05:08 PM
A local rental hardware store boght a CAT CTL and I bumped into a guy who rented it to dig out foundations from existing houses. He said the first day he used it it didn't do much due to the hard pan soil conditions. He said while operating he noticed all these little black things in the dirt. After realizing the CTL would cut it and he needed a low track loader without cab and ROPs he stopped and got out of the machine, Only then he realized those little black things where tread bars off the tracks. YIKES!;) I didn't find out how the store reacted, but I wonder in general how rental stores deal with the track beating issue.

Chunks or just flakes? New tracks will throw flakes off with the sprockets wearing in the cross bars, I had the same issue with my T190 tracks.

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 05:28 PM
Just looked at CATs site to see what it was...it was a MTL 287 with the same tracks as shown there. The tracks were the really corrugated kind with what looked like 3/4-1" wide rubber grousers. I saw the tracks on another guys machine, CAT MTL (#?), with the same issue. The second set I saw where completely burned off, right to the inner belting from probably 1,000+/- hrs of heavy beatings. This guy had every attachment possible and a really cool 6way dozer blade that was huge. Sure is a lot of rubber when you are handling it.

AWJ Services
01-03-2010, 05:55 PM
Thats an MTL not a CTL. They are 2 different machines and operating costs are very different.

mudmaker
01-03-2010, 06:03 PM
I don't think the debate was a true comparison performance - versatility wise, but rather was CTL the way to go and another subdiscusion that in light of high costs operating if a cheaper alterntive (such as TLB) was avialable. At least that was my interest in finding out and hearing opinions. :waving:

I really don't see how comparing a TLB to a CTL is a realistic comparison. If you are using a CTL so little that a TLB could replace it I don't see how a guy could justify a CTL purchase to begin with.

I love my 310SG, but to me a TLB is a jack of all trades, master of none type of machine.

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 06:14 PM
How is not copmaring 2 machines that do the same thing but in 2 different mechanical systems not a comparison? TLBs have great versatility and value, and comparing a JD310 to a TLB is using your same logic doesn't make sense. A JD310 is a full size hoe, nothing more, nothing less. Never seen anyone install a lawn, mow a field, do hardscaping, grade a gravel rd., or trailer around to jobs sites without CDL. The list goes on. At the same time you don't see a TLB doin the digging of a machine 2x bigger such as your JD310. JD310s are great, but is no TLB...and no TLB is a JD310.:drinkup:

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 06:19 PM
Adding on to that thread, mentioning that if a CTL was used so little that a TLB could replace it implies either a CTL is useful for only high volume, super high production...or that a TLB is somewhere way low on comparitive performance, utility, and value. Interesting. I guess everyone will have their own opinion on that.

On a different note, I see very few owners of CTLs doing anything more than power raking and using the buckets around here. Never a hoe, rake, mower, or other attachments. Does anyone here use a variety of attachments and take them all with you (or as many as you can effeciently handle) when working, or use another machine....or just not do those tasks.

Fieldman12
01-03-2010, 06:46 PM
So you are seeing other brands with Planetary problems and maint costs in the neighborhood of 14k every 1000 hours?

That is what we are seeing here around in Ohio.

poolscaper
01-03-2010, 07:15 PM
Adding on to that thread, mentioning that if a CTL was used so little that a TLB could replace it implies either a CTL is useful for only high volume, super high production...or that a TLB is somewhere way low on comparitive performance, utility, and value. Interesting. I guess everyone will have their own opinion on that.

On a different note, I see very few owners of CTLs doing anything more than power raking and using the buckets around here. Never a hoe, rake, mower, or other attachments. Does anyone here use a variety of attachments and take them all with you (or as many as you can effeciently handle) when working, or use another machine....or just not do those tasks.

I have a T190 that I use a hoe on as well as forks, smooth bucket, tooth bar, Auger, and tilt tach which tips the bucket angle side to side for grading purposes. Very handy machine and the hoe does a good job for what it is, my excavator is a Volvo 140 so the bc hoe handles all the small stuff.

Have had the machine five years in April. Other than maintenance and a set of tracks last spring...I have not had any mechanical problems(Knock on Wood).

Scott

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 07:29 PM
Hearing someone is using a hoe and other stuff with a CTL like Poolscaper is awsome!!:clapping: A CTL TLB???:weightlifter: Anyways, I would like to hear some of those stories about how much it is or effective to run a CTL/MTL with variable attachments. I am starting to think that hearing how a CTL is evrything under the sun with just bucket is starting to make me doubt it in terms of who REALLY does that much with 1 machine and 1 purpose.:sleeping:

AWJ Services
01-03-2010, 08:12 PM
How is not copmaring 2 machines that do the same thing but in 2 different mechanical systems not a comparison? TLBs have great versatility and value, and comparing a JD310 to a TLB is using your same logic doesn't make sense. A JD310 is a full size hoe, nothing more, nothing less. Never seen anyone install a lawn, mow a field, do hardscaping, grade a gravel rd., or trailer around to jobs sites without CDL. The list goes on. At the same time you don't see a TLB doin the digging of a machine 2x bigger such as your JD310. JD310s are great, but is no TLB...and no TLB is a JD310.:drinkup:

I do everything a JD 310 can do , everything your TLB can do and things neither can do with 2 machines. KX161 and a TL140.
Diversity, versatility and efficiency. There is no one machine that can do it all But I come close with 2!

stuvecorp
01-03-2010, 08:16 PM
Hearing someone is using a hoe and other stuff with a CTL like Poolscaper is awsome!!:clapping: A CTL TLB???:weightlifter: Anyways, I would like to hear some of those stories about how much it is or effective to run a CTL/MTL with variable attachments. I am starting to think that hearing how a CTL is evrything under the sun with just bucket is starting to make me doubt it in terms of who REALLY does that much with 1 machine and 1 purpose.:sleeping:

Look, if you want to talk how great a mini-TLB is that's fine - start another thread. I personally have no use for a mini-TLB as the skid or CTL/MTL does it for me. I want to talk about CTL's here...

Junior M
01-03-2010, 08:21 PM
Look, if you want to talk how great a mini-TLB is that's fine - start another thread. I personally have no use for a mini-TLB as the skid or CTL/MTL does it for me. I want to talk about CTL's here...
I am glad somebody said it, I was tired of talking to a wall.. :wall

treemover
01-03-2010, 08:37 PM
:clapping: Well said!

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 08:45 PM
Jeese, I all I wanted hear was who does what with their CTL. I guess someday I will start a thread about TLBs, that was not my intention today as I REALLY respect everyones experience and opinions on this (the original topic) topic. 10 pages of posts and so far 1 guy does something else with his CTL besides alleged "super production" without any mention on how it so productive?? Tells us how...with what...am I the only 1 who is interested? Anyone else besides me do anything but spead dirt. I am not trying to start "another" thread but I am VERY curious as to how verasatile (probably most of any machine for sure) and "flexible" CTLs are with varying job demands, attachments, and corresponding cost. I know it sounds like a detailed ? but I was just wondering aloud how other peope (with CTLs, not me) where set up and operate. :drinkup:

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 08:52 PM
AJW said: I do everything a JD 310 can do , everything your TLB can do and things neither can do with 2 machines. KX161 and a TL140.
Diversity, versatility and efficiency. There is no one machine that can do it all But I come close with 2!

So true, right on the money.:clapping:

Digdeep
01-03-2010, 09:11 PM
On a different note, I see very few owners of CTLs doing anything more than power raking and using the buckets around here. Never a hoe, rake, mower, or other attachments. Does anyone here use a variety of attachments and take them all with you (or as many as you can effeciently handle) when working, or use another machine....or just not do those tasks.

You just said this a couple posts ago, "Just looked at CATs site to see what it was...it was a MTL 287 with the same tracks as shown there. The tracks were the really corrugated kind with what looked like 3/4-1" wide rubber grousers. I saw the tracks on another guys machine, CAT MTL (#?), with the same issue. The second set I saw where completely burned off, right to the inner belting from probably 1,000+/- hrs of heavy beatings. This guy had every attachment possible and a really cool 6way dozer blade that was huge. Sure is a lot of rubber when you are handling it.".

I guess you answered your own question on whether people use any other attachments besides a rake or bucket

stuvecorp
01-03-2010, 09:11 PM
Jeese, I all I wanted hear was who does what with their CTL. I guess someday I will start a thread about TLBs, that was not my intention today as I REALLY respect everyones experience and opinions on this (the original topic) topic. 10 pages of posts and so far 1 guy does something else with his CTL besides alleged "super production" without any mention on how it so productive?? Tells us how...with what...am I the only 1 who is interested? Anyone else besides me do anything but spead dirt. I am not trying to start "another" thread but I am VERY curious as to how verasatile (probably most of any machine for sure) and "flexible" CTLs are with varying job demands, attachments, and corresponding cost. I know it sounds like a detailed ? but I was just wondering aloud how other peope (with CTLs, not me) where set up and operate. :drinkup:

A CTL is a skid steer so any attachment that is needed will fit and be utilized. Moving dirt may be the primary task because of how good it does it. The 130 size Tak will lift a little over 4000 pounds in the yard so that is super cool. I guess I just don't get what you are after? A justification to why a CTL is needed? How much did you spend on your Kubota TLB? What size bucket do you have and how much will it lift?

Any way back to the CTL, I have heard the Tak's undercarriage(not tracks) could reach 3000 hours in 'nice' conditions and is much tougher than some other brands out there. So why do the Tak's have such horrible resale?

AWJ Services
01-03-2010, 09:18 PM
A CTL is a skid steer so any attachment that is needed will fit and be utilized. Moving dirt may be the primary task because of how good it does it. The 130 size Tak will lift a little over 4000 pounds in the yard so that is super cool. I guess I just don't get what you are after? A justification to why a CTL is needed? How much did you spend on your Kubota TLB? What size bucket do you have and how much will it lift?

Any way back to the CTL, I have heard the Tak's undercarriage(not tracks) could reach 3000 hours in 'nice' conditions and is much tougher than some other brands out there. So why do the Tak's have such horrible resale?

Before 2006 they did not, but all skids have terrible resale now.

Construct'O
01-03-2010, 09:30 PM
For someone that just post here for the first time!!!!!!!!! You have have hit the record for most post.......... 24 so far on just one thread,with an average of two post per page with 12 pages.Maybe not GR i think has the record:)

Might want to go remove somemore snow off your 15+ driveways and cool off.Before the subzero weather here in the midwest heads east and shoots up you a$$,since you don't have a cab on your super wonderful TLB.

As for attachment used on CTL,i had a backhoe attachment,that was a extendahoe.Was okay,but traded it off for a mini.Backhoe only will swing too the side 45degrees,where as mini you can do a 360 get the dirt out away from you farther.

I also have more then one attachmnet for my CTL,which i do more then one thing like several others on here do.

Attachments used...... siltfence installer,highflow trencher(60" dig depth) 14" treeshear,landplaner with the ripper teeth,84" 4+1 bucket,84" tooth bucket,auger with 18" and 24" bits,hay bale staber,homemade drainage tile maxi roll mover,84" gradebox leverler,homemade brushrake,pallet forks,guess thats it not for sure,would have to go look might have forgot something.

So just because you live where you do,it doesn't mean other people on here doesn't need a CTL for there work.O' did forget the one attachmnet i use the most my 6-way dozer blade.:laugh:

Have a good even pushing snow:waving::usflag:

curtisfarmer
01-03-2010, 10:10 PM
Too funny, I have been a long time reader here, now first time poster:usflag: Lots of personalities for sure, always room for 1 more right? :) Seems like when you ask ?s about CTLs, I have called everyones sisters ugly. You never know, I may WANT a CTL....and am asking the hard questions. Finally, some variation to a monotone discussion about CTLs and why they are so good or so bad.

Too bad there wasn't a local bar we could all have few beers and make fun of eachother...and our threads:drinkup:

Junior M
01-03-2010, 10:19 PM
Dude, your confusing the hell out of me..

When this thread started a CTL was a useless POS that could only run a bucket and your "TLB" was so wonderful..

Now you say they are versatile as hell and are pretty cool machines..

I am pretty sure I attempted to tell you that multiple times?! :hammerhead: :wall

mudmaker
01-03-2010, 10:46 PM
Some questions for you guys running CTLs?


What does a set of tracks cost for a CTL? Other than tracks what other components need attention during the first 1500 hours?

Most of my work is site work for barns and shops. My goal has always been to get a mini ex, but after reading about CTL's on here I think I may try and pickup a good used one first and then find a mini ex. I am just so use to using my skid I never really thought about how a different type of machine would benefit me.

AEL
01-03-2010, 10:55 PM
Depends on your operating conditions and operating style, but you could also be looking at rollers and sprockets.

ksss
01-03-2010, 11:14 PM
Hello all, just got back from ND. It was minus 30 in Jamestown at 0600 hours on Saturday. It was 60 degrees above zero in Columbus, Mt at about 1400 hours. I went from worrying about my 3500 gelling up to throwing snow on all my deer(e) sausage I brought back to keep it cold.


Interesting topic.

For the record though I am not anti CTL. my position is that I thought when the CTL craze began and still do that many people bought them for the wrong reasons. I watched the CTL emerge and level off and I think for some applications that they are just the ticket and for many jobs they are not. If you run a CTL you need to be charging accordingly. If you have an MTL even more so.

What I find more perplexing though is how some guys who I think highly of here, find no value in knowing, tracking or basically giving a $uck about costs per hour, depreciation, ROI ect. Saying that the machine produces and that is enough, is pretty sketchy, but a topic for another time.

Having had my VTS on for a year has shown me many things. The guys that work for me much prefer grading with the VTS. I am surprised at how much more efficient it is at grading than a wheeled machine. The rock is taking a toll on my undercarriage, I have semi crushed a roller from getting a rock between the roller and the track. The VTS has opened my eyes to the advantages of a CTL/VTS machine. I am however very thankful that I have a wheeled machine as an option. Given the variety of things we do, having the ability to pick the best machine for the job works well.

As far as resale goes, the CTL and even more so the MTL did not hold their value well before things went South. Its even worse now. The reason is ( I think anyway) people are scared of them once they get hours on them. It is justied to some extent, perhaps over blown in someways, the tracks and components can add up. Throw in a drive motor and things really get sporty. Dozers are the same way. The value on a dozer with a completely rebuilt undercarriage is considerably better than the same dozer that only has 50% left. Once the meter starts running on a CTL they lose their value very rapidly. Again that is why the VTS is attractive, its comfortable due to having some torsion suspension and you can take it off.

stuvecorp
01-03-2010, 11:50 PM
That's quite the temperature spread.

How great would it be to have 'spare' machines so you could match up the right machine for the conditions?

AWJ Services
01-04-2010, 12:15 AM
Hello all, just got back from ND. It was minus 30 in Jamestown at 0600 hours on Saturday. It was 60 degrees above zero in Columbus, Mt at about 1400 hours. I went from worrying about my 3500 gelling up to throwing snow on all my deer(e) sausage I brought back to keep it cold.


Interesting topic.

For the record though I am not anti CTL. my position is that I thought when the CTL craze began and still do that many people bought them for the wrong reasons. I watched the CTL emerge and level off and I think for some applications that they are just the ticket and for many jobs they are not. If you run a CTL you need to be charging accordingly. If you have an MTL even more so.

What I find more perplexing though is how some guys who I think highly of here, find no value in knowing, tracking or basically giving a $uck about costs per hour, depreciation, ROI ect. Saying that the machine produces and that is enough, is pretty sketchy, but a topic for another time.

Having had my VTS on for a year has shown me many things. The guys that work for me much prefer grading with the VTS. I am surprised at how much more efficient it is at grading than a wheeled machine. The rock is taking a toll on my undercarriage, I have semi crushed a roller from getting a rock between the roller and the track. The VTS has opened my eyes to the advantages of a CTL/VTS machine. I am however very thankful that I have a wheeled machine as an option. Given the variety of things we do, having the ability to pick the best machine for the job works well.

As far as resale goes, the CTL and even more so the MTL did not hold their value well before things went South. Its even worse now. The reason is ( I think anyway) people are scared of them once they get hours on them. It is justied to some extent, perhaps over blown in someways, the tracks and components can add up. Throw in a drive motor and things really get sporty. Dozers are the same way. The value on a dozer with a completely rebuilt undercarriage is considerably better than the same dozer that only has 50% left. Once the meter starts running on a CTL they lose their value very rapidly. Again that is why the VTS is attractive, its comfortable due to having some torsion suspension and you can take it off.

I agree on the cost of operation although you may think my posts would indicate otherwise.
I have scoured the internet and talked to many buisness owners and I have as of yet found no conclusive evidence of an accurate operating cost for a CTL. Unlike a wheeled machine operating costs seem to be all over the place as well as trade in value.
One thing I have found is the larger percentage of CTL owners are happy with there investemnet and overall return of it.

stuvecorp
01-04-2010, 12:41 AM
I've got another question, do you think the CTL's get a bad rap because of the MTL's?

Fieldman12
01-04-2010, 02:00 AM
I've got another question, do you think the CTL's get a bad rap because of the MTL's?

Yes, they do especially around here. You would be suprised how many operators and even owner operators around my area honestly dont know what a CTL,MTL, versus a VTS undercarriage is. I have actually had to educate a few on what they own and as to what type of undercarriage they had. I dont even own one of these machines but I do allot of research and try to talk to allot of people that do have the answers and the experience that can give me the answers I need so I can hopefully make the best decision for me and my customers needs. I am very much a research and number cruncher type of person. I want the most money return for the least amount of money spent. Even at that though I know some times it takes money to make money so I will spend for something if I can see a return and also a better finished product for the customer. Time is also money which I have to take into serious consideration.

stuvecorp
01-04-2010, 03:05 AM
Yes, they do especially around here. You would be suprised how many operators and even owner operators around my area honestly dont know what a CTL,MTL, versus a VTS undercarriage is. I have actually had to educate a few on what they own and as to what type of undercarriage they had. I dont even own one of these machines but I do allot of research and try to talk to allot of people that do have the answers and the experience that can give me the answers I need so I can hopefully make the best decision for me and my customers needs. I am very much a research and number cruncher type of person. I want the most money return for the least amount of money spent. Even at that though I know some times it takes money to make money so I will spend for something if I can see a return and also a better finished product for the customer. Time is also money which I have to take into serious consideration.

Well said. I'm not sure on the real number of CTL machines in this area but it isn't that many, I'd say there is more MTL machines out there. I would have to say I think Bobcat has the most, I think there is only one other Tak machine that I know of.

jefftb
01-04-2010, 09:26 AM
I agree on the cost of operation although you may think my posts would indicate otherwise.
I have scoured the internet and talked to many buisness owners and I have as of yet found no conclusive evidence of an accurate operating cost for a CTL. Unlike a wheeled machine operating costs seem to be all over the place as well as trade in value.
One thing I have found is the larger percentage of CTL owners are happy with there investemnet and overall return of it.

Check out this EXCEL spreadsheet available for download at Case's website: http://tiny.cc/ruiT7

This actually the most comprehensive worksheet I am aware of on the Al Gore creation. I know its not real world evidence from owner's but you can adjust it for your situation and come up with a better idea of operating cost ranges.

As to what we do with a CTL we use vibratory plow, trenchers, buckets, concrete mixers, vibratory roller and work in areas that a TLB would just not work. Side of the hills, up and down hills, in-out of wooded environments and occasionally in just a good ol' flat field.

Scag48
01-04-2010, 09:52 AM
I think when you're talking operating cost, you need to remember who operates these machines. I'm going to try not to generalize everyone who may purchase or operates a CTL/MTL, but it seems like the a substantial amount of end users of these machines are slightly less educated about operating costs and couldn't care less. My best guess for this lack of awareness is quite simple; it's a tool, it produces revenue, I don't care what it costs me to run it as long as it does what I need 100% of the time. I think this is why a whole lot of CTL/MTL owners could have purchased a skid steer and handled their work load but decided to buy a machine they know they can run anytime, anywhere. Without a doubt, a CTL/MTL will perform in every arena that a skid steer can, plus have the ability to work in very unsuitable ground conditions. I understand the logic behind a lot of guys jumping for the the tracked machine, there isn't a job that the platform can't handle. However, they must realize that every job that can be easily accomplished with a wheeled machine, they're losing money. If your tracked machine isn't more productive than a skid steer in a certain task, you're throwing money away and you can't argue against that. It's costing you more to move the same amount of material in the same amount of time.


Operating costs are quite simple. Coming to a solid, hourly number can be difficult, especially if the owner is making a first purchase into that type of machine. I think education of operating costs for owners in this arena is quite low, a lot of guys don't realize how much more they could be generating or saving themselves if they sat down and calculated their operating costs.

93turbo
01-04-2010, 02:50 PM
Yes, they do especially around here. You would be suprised how many operators and even owner operators around my area honestly dont know what a CTL,MTL, versus a VTS undercarriage is. I have actually had to educate a few on what they own and as to what type of undercarriage they had. I dont even own one of these machines but I do allot of research and try to talk to allot of people that do have the answers and the experience that can give me the answers I need so I can hopefully make the best decision for me and my customers needs. I am very much a research and number cruncher type of person. I want the most money return for the least amount of money spent. Even at that though I know some times it takes money to make money so I will spend for something if I can see a return and also a better finished product for the customer. Time is also money which I have to take into serious consideration.

Thats a good point and I would be interested in hearing it as I don't have a skid as I haven't had the demand to justify one yet but I sure would like to know what the heck everyone is talking about:laugh:

Fieldman12
01-04-2010, 06:37 PM
Multi Terrain Loader (MTL) - It is a suspended undercarriage that basically has a suspension built into it so it can move to the terrain of the ground. A good example is the ASV brand machines and all the early Cat track loaders. Cat also makes them in the C series but dont mistaken them with the yellow undercarriage which is the non suspension type design. A good note also is ASV designs the MTL undercarriage for the Cats. The design is actually taken from machines that run in snow country. It is a good design but is only idea for muddy areas, sod, snow and areas that are not abbrasive. Allot of the parts also have rubber attached to them. The design is probably the smoothest riding design out there.

Compact Track Loader (CTL) - It is a much simpler design than the MTL design and there is no suspension type built in. Every thing is mounted solid and does not follow the contour of the ground like the MTL does. This design is more rough riding but is also designed to work in tough climates such as rock and so on. (Note rock is even rough on this design but is more forgiving than the MTL design). The track is driven by a planitary drive system with a sprocket that comes into Contact with the track to turn it. A good example of this design is the Deere, Case, New Holland, and the yellow Cat undercarriage machines.

Versatile Track System (VTS) - Manufactured by Loegering. It is a bolt on undercarriage that is designed for a wheeled skid steer. The user would simply unbolt the wheels and bolt on the undercarriage. Nice feature about this is you can switch back to a wheeled skid steer when he chooses all though I think this is something you may only want to do a few times a year due to the time involved and the removal of the bolt on undercarriage. According to there website the switch can be done in an hour. There is some suspension in this design somewhat similar but different than the MTL design.
There is other little differences also but this is the main ones of the different types out there.

ksss
01-04-2010, 06:51 PM
Without a doubt, a CTL/MTL will perform in every arena that a skid steer can, plus have the ability to work in very unsuitable ground conditions. I understand the logic behind a lot of guys jumping for the the tracked machine, there isn't a job that the platform can't handle. However, they must realize that every job that can be easily accomplished with a wheeled machine, they're losing money. If your tracked machine isn't more productive than a skid steer in a certain task, you're throwing money away and you can't argue against that. It's costing you more to move the same amount of material in the same amount of time.


Operating costs are quite simple. Coming to a solid, hourly number can be difficult, especially if the owner is making a first purchase into that type of machine. I think education of operating costs for owners in this arena is quite low, a lot of guys don't realize how much more they could be generating or saving themselves if they sat down and calculated their operating costs.


That is exactly my thoughts as well and the same points that I have made since the start of the CTL/MTL craze.

curtisfarmer
01-04-2010, 07:52 PM
Watch out Skag48....you just called their sister's UGLY! Anything you own will now be ridiculed as junk. *trucewhiteflag* Anyways, great discussion and the definition of the CTL/MTL/VTS was consice and very informative for anyone who didn't know the difference.:clapping:

AWJ Services
01-04-2010, 09:29 PM
That is exactly my thoughts as well and the same points that I have made since the start of the CTL/MTL craze.

I agree as well.
CTL machines grade and excavate better than a wheeled machine. After that a wheeled machine has many advantages over a CTL including lower operating expenses.

Scag48
01-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Watch out Skag48....you just called their sister's UGLY! Anything you own will now be ridiculed as junk. *trucewhiteflag* Anyways, great discussion and the definition of the CTL/MTL/VTS was consice and very informative for anyone who didn't know the difference.:clapping:

I don't own any iron currently, lucky for me! :laugh: I'm just a hand for hire these days but I see myself back into self employment at some point in the future.

I'm not against CTL/MTL's whatsoever, they are great tools at the disposal of those who require them. However, those who don't fully understand the costs associated with owning such a machine are missing out.

Chilehead
01-04-2010, 10:47 PM
Wonderful discourse going on here! I am at a crossroads right now for my first CTL or utility tractor. Considering that most of my work is residential but not new construction, I am debating between an ASV PT-50 with tracks or a Kioti/New Holland tractor. I know for a fact that the tractor will not fit through most residential gates, but for me I like the ride of a tractor and the increased visibility. Then there's the price difference. I can get a nice tractor plus attachments for the cost of the CTL. For sheer ease of use I think the tractor wins hands down, but when it comes to cutting virgin ground for a new grade, the CTL wins. I have never cut new ground with a tractor's front end loader because I was told by a dealer that they are designed for loading, not for the stresses of digging. Till now, I have rented my equipment so have been able to demo just about every piece of equipment available.

93turbo
01-05-2010, 12:12 AM
Multi Terrain Loader (MTL) - It is a suspended undercarriage that basically has a suspension built into it so it can move to the terrain of the ground. A good example is the ASV brand machines and all the early Cat track loaders. Cat also makes them in the C series but dont mistaken them with the yellow undercarriage which is the non suspension type design. A good note also is ASV designs the MTL undercarriage for the Cats. The design is actually taken from machines that run in snow country. It is a good design but is only idea for muddy areas, sod, snow and areas that are not abbrasive. Allot of the parts also have rubber attached to them. The design is probably the smoothest riding design out there.

Compact Track Loader (CTL) - It is a much simpler design than the MTL design and there is no suspension type built in. Every thing is mounted solid and does not follow the contour of the ground like the MTL does. This design is more rough riding but is also designed to work in tough climates such as rock and so on. (Note rock is even rough on this design but is more forgiving than the MTL design). The track is driven by a planitary drive system with a sprocket that comes into Contact with the track to turn it. A good example of this design is the Deere, Case, New Holland, and the yellow Cat undercarriage machines.

Versatile Track System (VTS) - Manufactured by Loegering. It is a bolt on undercarriage that is designed for a wheeled skid steer. The user would simply unbolt the wheels and bolt on the undercarriage. Nice feature about this is you can switch back to a wheeled skid steer when he chooses all though I think this is something you may only want to do a few times a year due to the time involved and the removal of the bolt on undercarriage. According to there website the switch can be done in an hour. There is some suspension in this design somewhat similar but different than the MTL design.
There is other little differences also but this is the main ones of the different types out there.

Thank you

AWJ Services
01-05-2010, 12:28 AM
Wonderful discourse going on here! I am at a crossroads right now for my first CTL or utility tractor. Considering that most of my work is residential but not new construction, I am debating between an ASV PT-50 with tracks or a Kioti/New Holland tractor. I know for a fact that the tractor will not fit through most residential gates, but for me I like the ride of a tractor and the increased visibility. Then there's the price difference. I can get a nice tractor plus attachments for the cost of the CTL. For sheer ease of use I think the tractor wins hands down, but when it comes to cutting virgin ground for a new grade, the CTL wins. I have never cut new ground with a tractor's front end loader because I was told by a dealer that they are designed for loading, not for the stresses of digging. Till now, I have rented my equipment so have been able to demo just about every piece of equipment available.

Buy a Kubota and make it an HST model.
The ASV is just not going to be a positive investment in Ga.

ksss
01-05-2010, 01:36 AM
I would say the best money would be to buy for the majority of your work and rent for the remainder. If you need a CTL for the occasional hard digging job, you can rent or hire it out to someone else.

Digdeep
01-05-2010, 09:36 AM
Wonderful discourse going on here! I am at a crossroads right now for my first CTL or utility tractor. Considering that most of my work is residential but not new construction, I am debating between an ASV PT-50 with tracks or a Kioti/New Holland tractor. I know for a fact that the tractor will not fit through most residential gates, but for me I like the ride of a tractor and the increased visibility. Then there's the price difference. I can get a nice tractor plus attachments for the cost of the CTL. For sheer ease of use I think the tractor wins hands down, but when it comes to cutting virgin ground for a new grade, the CTL wins. I have never cut new ground with a tractor's front end loader because I was told by a dealer that they are designed for loading, not for the stresses of digging. Till now, I have rented my equipment so have been able to demo just about every piece of equipment available.

If you've demoed both the tractor and the ASV you should have a good idea of what machine would work best for you. As for the ASV being a bad investment in GA, I don't know if I'd go that far. At the risk of being told about how hard the "Red Georgia Clay" is compared to dirt anywhere else in the world, I think it would work just fine.

AWJ Services
01-05-2010, 09:50 AM
If you've demoed both the tractor and the ASV you should have a good idea of what machine would work best for you. As for the ASV being a bad investment in GA, I don't know if I'd go that far. At the risk of being told about how hard the "Red Georgia Clay" is compared to dirt anywhere else in the world, I think it would work just fine.

Maybe KSSS was refering to you in reference to operating costs being of no regard?
I never said it would not work I said it would not be a positive investment.

Chilehead
01-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Maybe KSSS was refering to you in reference to operating costs being of no regard?
I never said it would not work I said it would not be a positive investment.

Yes, I have demoed an ASV. I would have to say that pound-for-pound, ASV's roller system allows their machines to have top notch traction. Their old RC-50 weighs less than a Bobcat T190 and has a less powerful engine, yet I have found that the ASV machine will dig just as well on dry ground and better than the T190 when muddy. The one main caveat to ASV's machines is that you shouldn't use them on gravel, as there have been many (supposed) broken roller systems when doing so. I remember hearing something back in 2007 that ASV was working on fixing the problem to make their rollers more rugged, but I really have no clue about that.

AWJ Services
01-05-2010, 12:03 PM
Yes, I have demoed an ASV. I would have to say that pound-for-pound, ASV's roller system allows their machines to have top notch traction. Their old RC-50 weighs less than a Bobcat T190 and has a less powerful engine, yet I have found that the ASV machine will dig just as well on dry ground and better than the T190 when muddy. The one main caveat to ASV's machines is that you shouldn't use them on gravel, as there have been many (supposed) broken roller systems when doing so. I remember hearing something back in 2007 that ASV was working on fixing the problem to make their rollers more rugged, but I really have no clue about that.

Well them I will ask if they are "Better" than why does no one sale them?
How many do you see on Jobsites?
Why do you want to buy a peice of equipment that situates you in the most saturated market in the Metro Atlanta area?

A T190 is not a benchmark to be comparing a machine to either.

Digdeep
01-05-2010, 03:34 PM
Maybe KSSS was refering to you in reference to operating costs being of no regard?
I never said it would not work I said it would not be a positive investment.

Maybe, but I doubt it :drinkup:

Digdeep
01-05-2010, 03:38 PM
Well them I will ask if they are "Better" than why does no one sale them?
How many do you see on Jobsites?
Why do you want to buy a peice of equipment that situates you in the most saturated market in the Metro Atlanta area?

A T190 is not a benchmark to be comparing a machine to either.

Not sure about your market down there, but I am waiting for my buddy to share the year end SSL and CTL industry report from Yengst. He's read it and said I will be suprised by the year end trends in national market share. I should get it in the next few days.

stuvecorp
01-05-2010, 03:51 PM
Not sure about your market down there, but I am waiting for my buddy to share the year end SSL and CTL industry report from Yengst. He's read it and said I will be suprised by the year end trends in national market share. I should get it in the next few days.

That would be very interesting, please share(if you can).:)

Tigerotor77W
01-05-2010, 03:52 PM
Not sure about your market down there, but I am waiting for my buddy to share the year end SSL and CTL industry report from Yengst. He's read it and said I will be suprised by the year end trends in national market share. I should get it in the next few days.

Do you have a name for the publication? I don't see a recent Yengst report on CTLs.

Digdeep
01-05-2010, 04:18 PM
Do you have a name for the publication? I don't see a recent Yengst report on CTLs.

Yengst used to put out a year end December report. It might still do that. I should have it by tomorrow or Thursday.

AWJ Services
01-05-2010, 06:15 PM
Not sure about your market down there, but I am waiting for my buddy to share the year end SSL and CTL industry report from Yengst. He's read it and said I will be suprised by the year end trends in national market share. I should get it in the next few days.

So the more units sold equate a better product?

Digdeep
01-05-2010, 06:39 PM
So the more units sold equate a better product?

Not necessarily. It could mean quite a few things...longevity, better distribution, broader applications, access to different industries, and possibly better product. I think you're trying too hard to "read between the tea leaves".

My comment was mostly directed at such a broad comment made without much information regarding whether or not an ASV purchased in GA was a wise investment. Especially since the only thing to base the decision on was the following comment by the poster, "Considering that most of my work is residential but not new construction...". it is very possible that the ASV won't work for what he does, and probably an equal opportunity that it would work fine for what he does.

AWJ Services
01-05-2010, 07:38 PM
Not necessarily. It could mean quite a few things...longevity, better distribution, broader applications, access to different industries, and possibly better product. I think you're trying too hard to "read between the tea leaves".

My comment was mostly directed at such a broad comment made without much information regarding whether or not an ASV purchased in GA was a wise investment. Especially since the only thing to base the decision on was the following comment by the poster, "Considering that most of my work is residential but not new construction...". it is very possible that the ASV won't work for what he does, and probably an equal opportunity that it would work fine for what he does.

I just know what type of work we do here and buying a machine that will struggle with grading 6 months out of the year( to small) and limits your ability to spread gravel( risk of undercarraiage damage) and has very little dealer support ( on the soutside of Atlanta) is why I said what I said.
If he wants a skid steer buy a skid steer. Get the asv SR85. He will then be able to take jobs that not everyone can do and when the ground is hard he can work.
Our lots here are huge and space is not an issue.
So in my opinion if you want a small skid steer a tractor is a better starting point due to cost, flexibility, price of attachments, cost of operating and he can gain a lucrative market in acreage mowing and brush cutting.

curtisfarmer
01-05-2010, 08:52 PM
Hey AWJ, I thought you were against the same points you are making??? Just busting balls, I enjoy your detailed comments and observations that are clearly coming from experience:waving:

AWJ Services
01-05-2010, 09:10 PM
Hey AWJ, I thought you were against the same points you are making??? Just busting balls, I enjoy your detailed comments and observations that are clearly coming from experience:waving:

I started with Kubota L3710 Grand HST tractor. I had nothing else.
I rented small Skid Steers and found that they where of very little advantage over my Tractor. Now a big Skid Steer is different.

I do have a saying........." Never Let the Facts Get in The Way of a Good Story"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ksss
01-05-2010, 09:45 PM
:waving:I started with Kubota L3710 Grand HST tractor. I had nothing else.
I rented small Skid Steers and found that they where of very little advantage over my Tractor. Now a big Skid Steer is different.

I do have a saying........." Never Let the Facts Get in The Way of a Good Story"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats true he does like that saying.:waving:


Its cold and shitty here to.:drinkup:

Digdeep
01-10-2010, 01:18 PM
Do you have a name for the publication? I don't see a recent Yengst report on CTLs.

Tigerotor77W...I got the Yengst report (December 2009 CTL Report) from my buddy at Bobcat last Thursday and took it into work. I was going to go get it this weekend, but I figured that ice fishing was more important yesterday and the packers are playing today so we're all getting together for some beer and hollering while the pack pummels the Cardinals:drinkup:

I'll be able to provide more details tomorrow during my planning hour, but the thing that stood out the most in the report was that Takeuchi fell to 5th in national market share at the expense of Deere. This was the order going into 2010:
Bobcat
CAT
Terex/ASV
Deere
Takeuchi

I don't remember the exact percentages, but Bobcat and CAT were #1 & 2 by pretty decent margins and ASV/Deere/Takeuchi were pretty close. I wish I would have left it here at home, but I figured I'd get to read it and post some information; however, I got caught up with grading tests and covering for another teacher during my lunch hour.

stuvecorp
01-10-2010, 02:21 PM
Tigerotor77W...I got the Yengst report (December 2009 CTL Report) from my buddy at Bobcat last Thursday and took it into work. I was going to go get it this weekend, but I figured that ice fishing was more important yesterday and the packers are playing today so we're all getting together for some beer and hollering while the pack pummels the Cardinals:drinkup:

I'll be able to provide more details tomorrow during my planning hour, but the thing that stood out the most in the report was that Takeuchi fell to 5th in national market share at the expense of Deere. This was the order going into 2010:
Bobcat
CAT
Terex/ASV
Deere
Takeuchi

I don't remember the exact percentages, but Bobcat and CAT were #1 & 2 by pretty decent margins and ASV/Deere/Takeuchi were pretty close. I wish I would have left it here at home, but I figured I'd get to read it and post some information; however, I got caught up with grading tests and covering for another teacher during my lunch hour.

Cool, that is very interesting. I'm looking forward to hearing more on this. Go Pack!:weightlifter:

AWJ Services
01-10-2010, 08:21 PM
Tigerotor77W...I got the Yengst report (December 2009 CTL Report) from my buddy at Bobcat last Thursday and took it into work. I was going to go get it this weekend, but I figured that ice fishing was more important yesterday and the packers are playing today so we're all getting together for some beer and hollering while the pack pummels the Cardinals:drinkup:

I'll be able to provide more details tomorrow during my planning hour, but the thing that stood out the most in the report was that Takeuchi fell to 5th in national market share at the expense of Deere. This was the order going into 2010:
Bobcat
CAT
Terex/ASV
Deere
Takeuchi

I don't remember the exact percentages, but Bobcat and CAT were #1 & 2 by pretty decent margins and ASV/Deere/Takeuchi were pretty close. I wish I would have left it here at home, but I figured I'd get to read it and post some information; however, I got caught up with grading tests and covering for another teacher during my lunch hour.

Do they list sales by State.
It would be interesting to see how sales are in realtion to areas that each manufacturer concentrates there sales in.
For Example Takeuchi is more popular here than ASV and it is opposite in other States.

Tigerotor77W
01-10-2010, 11:19 PM
Tigerotor77W...I got the Yengst report (December 2009 CTL Report) from my buddy at Bobcat last Thursday and took it into work.

You should ask him for the SSL numbers. *Those* may surprise you (2009-08). :p

Do they list sales by State.

No, alas -- the data is compiled by the AED (http://www.aednet.org/), and though manufacturers may track their data by dealer or by territory, the Yengst reports are not discretized (broken down) that fine.

Digdeep
01-10-2010, 11:25 PM
Do they list sales by State.
It would be interesting to see how sales are in realtion to areas that each manufacturer concentrates there sales in.
For Example Takeuchi is more popular here than ASV and it is opposite in other States.

No. It does list the total percentage of sales by region, e.g. Southeast, Northeast, Midwest, etc., but not by brand. The two top regions were the Southeast and the Midwest. I will post what states constitute the regions tomorrow during my planning hour. This is a report by a company by the name of Yengst Associates. There are other industry aanalyst companies out there, but Yengst is probably considered the best. They analyze almost all of the markets from heavy equipment, Ag tractors, business sectors, specific machine classses, etc. and they periodically release these reports on top of their annual reports.

I don't think the annual market share numbers are a simple result of "concentration", but probably more related to dealer strengths, history, regional market size, etc. I think all OEMs would like to have strong dealers in all regions. A good example would be the Midwest. It is historically the number one market in the US for skid steer sales and one of the top regions for CTLs. I would think that any OEM would strive to make sure they put a focus on setting up a strong dealer network in this area, especially Iowa, Minnesota and Wisconsin. I remember being told that over 20% of the worlds skid steers were sold in 5 states- Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan and Ohio. That number or some of the states may have changed since I was a Bobcat salesman then, but it would be prudent for an OEM, regardless of brand to put the time and effort in to having a strong dealer network up here. I'm sure the same goes for the Southeast.

Digdeep
01-10-2010, 11:27 PM
You should ask him for the SSL numbers. *Those* may surprise you (2009-08). :p



No, alas -- the data is compiled by the AED (http://www.aednet.org/), and though manufacturers may track their data by dealer or by territory, the Yengst reports are not discretized (broken down) that fine.

The last one he sent me on SSLs was from late summer. If I remember correctly, Yengst usually does on for the whole year in the first quarter of the following year.

Tigerotor77W
01-11-2010, 12:10 AM
The last one he sent me on SSLs was from late summer. If I remember correctly, Yengst usually does on for the whole year in the first quarter of the following year.

I'm not too familiar with their reporting timeline, but yeah, that's the one I was referring to. I was surprised to see that Cat's no longer #2 -- surprised and extremely frustrated.

For those of you curious, the website is simply yengstassociates.com. The subscription rates are astronomical!

AWJ Services
01-11-2010, 12:40 AM
No. It does list the total percentage of sales by region, e.g. Southeast, Northeast, Midwest, etc., but not by brand. The two top regions were the Southeast and the Midwest. I will post what states constitute the regions tomorrow during my planning hour. This is a report by a company by the name of Yengst Associates. There are other industry aanalyst companies out there, but Yengst is probably considered the best. They analyze almost all of the markets from heavy equipment, Ag tractors, business sectors, specific machine classses, etc. and they periodically release these reports on top of their annual reports.

I don't think the annual market share numbers are a simple result of "concentration", but probably more related to dealer strengths, history, regional market size, etc. I think all OEMs would like to have strong dealers in all regions. A good example would be the Midwest. It is historically the number one market in the US for skid steer sales and one of the top regions for CTLs. I would think that any OEM would strive to make sure they put a focus on setting up a strong dealer network in this area, especially Iowa, Minnesota and Wisconsin. I remember being told that over 20% of the worlds skid steers were sold in 5 states- Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan and Ohio. That number or some of the states may have changed since I was a Bobcat salesman then, but it would be prudent for an OEM, regardless of brand to put the time and effort in to having a strong dealer network up here. I'm sure the same goes for the Southeast.

I know when things where good my salesman was the number one salesman for Takeuchi in the US.
To put it in perspective we have 3 Takeuchi dealers in the Metro Atlanta area and one Bobcat dealer.

Digdeep
01-11-2010, 01:48 PM
I know when things where good my salesman was the number one salesman for Takeuchi in the US.
To put it in perspective we have 3 Takeuchi dealers in the Metro Atlanta area and one Bobcat dealer.

That makes sense with the North American Distribution right there.

Digdeep
01-11-2010, 01:50 PM
For those of you curious, the website is simply yengstassociates.com. The subscription rates are astronomical!

That is why I wait for him to send them to me. Even though I get into this stuff, I wouldn't shell out that kind of money for the information.

Digdeep
01-11-2010, 02:06 PM
Here is some more information from the CTL report:

The breakdown in CTL sales by region:
Southeast- 36%
Midwest- 34%
Northeast-15%
West- 10%
Canada- 5%

National Market Share-
Bobcat- 31%
CAT- 20%
Terex/ASV-12%
Deere- 11%
Takeuchi- 6%
New Holland- 6%
Gehl- 4%
Case- 4%
Komatsu- 4%
JCB- 2%

According to Yengst Takeuchi had 12% market share in 2006 and ASV had 14%, Bobcat had 35% and CAT had 22%. Deere has been the beneficiary of everyone's market share. Deere has picked up 3% since then. Remember the market is much smaller now than it was in 2006 so the gains and losses won't exactly match up.

As of 2008 the total field population percentages were:
Bobcat 35%
CAT 23%
Terex/ASV 15%
Takeuchi 10%
Gehl/Mustang 5%
Deere 3%
others 9%

The CTL market is expected to grow 67% between 2008 and 2013.

Interesting info.

KTM
01-11-2010, 02:53 PM
Does any one take in to consideration that TK/Gehl/Mustang are the same machine? Kind of how GM trucks kind of get the shaft because they consider them separate companies. Or would you always have to consider them separate because dealers and the brand might treat the customer different. Just a thought.

AWJ Services
01-11-2010, 03:45 PM
That makes sense with the North American Distribution right there.

There was only one to start with and they opened a second location then a competitor from North Georgia bought out a local tractor place and opened up there location. So we actually have 4 that I know of in Georgia.
My salesman was selling over 200 skid steers a year.

Bobcat had a huge presence here with a very large corporate store and they heavily contributed to Takeuchi's success during the drive motor fiasco.

AWJ Services
01-11-2010, 03:46 PM
Do they break down the market share per region?

Digdeep
01-11-2010, 04:52 PM
Does any one take in to consideration that TK/Gehl/Mustang are the same machine? Kind of how GM trucks kind of get the shaft because they consider them separate companies. Or would you always have to consider them separate because dealers and the brand might treat the customer different. Just a thought.

I don't think so. The machines and parts for Gehl/Mustang/Takeuchi sell for different prices in each of their respective dealership networks. I have also heard that the agreement between Takeuchi and the two is most likely over.

Digdeep
01-11-2010, 04:55 PM
Do they break down the market share per region?

No. The OEMs get UCC or AEM data for individual markets. UCC is by county.

Digdeep
01-11-2010, 05:13 PM
AWJ...here is a little tidbit for you....My contact at Bobcat said that Takeuchi displyed 3 models of skid steers (2 radial and 1 vertical) at an Italian show in November. They were rebranded Toyota skids and will be close to the S100, S130 and the S175 in ROC class. A few people within Bobcat think that Toyota may end up buying Takeuchi since they already own some of them anyway.

stuvecorp
01-11-2010, 05:35 PM
I don't think so. The machines and parts for Gehl/Mustang/Takeuchi sell for different prices in each of their respective dealership networks. I have also heard that the agreement between Takeuchi and the two is most likely over.

AWJ...here is a little tidbit for you....My contact at Bobcat said that Takeuchi displyed 3 models of skid steers (2 radial and 1 vertical) at an Italian show in November. They were rebranded Toyota skids and will be close to the S100, S130 and the S175 in ROC class. A few people within Bobcat think that Toyota may end up buying Takeuchi since they already own some of them anyway.

Very interesting.

AWJ Services
01-11-2010, 06:38 PM
AWJ...here is a little tidbit for you....My contact at Bobcat said that Takeuchi displyed 3 models of skid steers (2 radial and 1 vertical) at an Italian show in November. They were rebranded Toyota skids and will be close to the S100, S130 and the S175 in ROC class. A few people within Bobcat think that Toyota may end up buying Takeuchi since they already own some of them anyway.


Interesting.

Tigerotor77W
01-11-2010, 09:51 PM
They sure don't publish specs the same way I'm used to... interesting machine design, however.

Digdeep
01-11-2010, 10:08 PM
AWJ...here is a little tidbit for you....My contact at Bobcat said that Takeuchi displyed 3 models of skid steers (2 radial and 1 vertical) at an Italian show in November. They were rebranded Toyota skids and will be close to the S100, S130 and the S175 in ROC class. A few people within Bobcat think that Toyota may end up buying Takeuchi since they already own some of them anyway.

http://www.toyotaskidsteerloader.com.au/

AWJ Services
01-11-2010, 11:28 PM
http://www.toyotaskidsteerloader.com.au/

The lift arms on the vertical lift machines look just like the ones on the Kubota CTL.

Digdeep
01-11-2010, 11:43 PM
The lift arms on the vertical lift machines look just like the ones on the Kubota CTL.

Or...maybe the Kubota CTL loader arms look like the Toyota's :) Especially since Toyota actually has their machine in the market for sale and everyone is still waiting patiently for Kubota to launch their CTL.

Tigerotor77W
01-12-2010, 01:09 AM
Thanks for posting the link, digdeep... I googled it and forgot to copy/paste it here.

One thing that's different is that the lift cylinders are mounted to the lift arm and not to the chassis. I'm not exactly sure why they've done this. It makes sense that if you route the hoses through the lift arm, the head-end stays with the lift arm, but I don't see why they couldn't just route the hoses through the chassis instead. In excavators, sometimes I see the advantage... here... not sure I see a distinct advantage.

Seems like Australia also has quite the market for smaller skids -- the largest one Toyota makes is roughly a 2,000 pound ROC machine (with only 59 HP!).

ga site works
01-15-2010, 11:13 PM
I have finally gotten around to doing so catching up reading on the forum. I have been involved in this business for 17 years now, and have seen a lot of equipment, and businesses come and go as well as the economy. I started out with a CUT myself and have owned wheeled SSL's, CTL, Kubtoa l35, Kubota L48, Mini ex, and a dozer. The type of equipment one owns is generally specific to the work that one is doing. Each and every one of us has some unique needs in or companies, and some may feel more comfortable running a specific type of machine (tractor vs. skid).

What I have found is that tracked machines definitley have their place, and yes they are very poductive machines and can work in some pretty adverse conditions. It is also true that along with that versatility comes added expense in terms of maintenace. When times were "good" it was very easy to justify and collect the extra rates needed to operate these machines and turn a profit. However tracked machines are definetly best suited to new construction sites, and are not the most friendly on pavement and finshed landscapes.

With this down economy, new contruction here is basically dead (only 10 new home building permits were issued in 2009 in my county). I have had to change my business structure, downsize, and focus more on small jobs (i.e uitility lines, brush hogging, excavation for room additions/garages, small grading jobs, etc). For me doing this type of work the L48 shines, and is easy to transport, and is competitive on the bill rate. Gone are the days of bringing the SSL and Mini to the job and getting a fair rate for the both being there. Today, you basically get the rate for 1 machine, if there is only 1 operator and not $1 more.


Again, what works well for one may not necessarily work for the next guy, and as long as you are turning a profit, that's all that matters.

Digdeep
01-16-2010, 11:02 AM
I have finally gotten around to doing so catching up reading on the forum. I have been involved in this business for 17 years now, and have seen a lot of equipment, and businesses come and go as well as the economy. I started out with a CUT myself and have owned wheeled SSL's, CTL, Kubtoa l35, Kubota L48, Mini ex, and a dozer. The type of equipment one owns is generally specific to the work that one is doing. Each and every one of us has some unique needs in or companies, and some may feel more comfortable running a specific type of machine (tractor vs. skid).

What I have found is that tracked machines definitley have their place, and yes they are very poductive machines and can work in some pretty adverse conditions. It is also true that along with that versatility comes added expense in terms of maintenace. When times were "good" it was very easy to justify and collect the extra rates needed to operate these machines and turn a profit. However tracked machines are definetly best suited to new construction sites, and are not the most friendly on pavement and finshed landscapes.

With this down economy, new contruction here is basically dead (only 10 new home building permits were issued in 2009 in my county). I have had to change my business structure, downsize, and focus more on small jobs (i.e uitility lines, brush hogging, excavation for room additions/garages, small grading jobs, etc). For me doing this type of work the L48 shines, and is easy to transport, and is competitive on the bill rate. Gone are the days of bringing the SSL and Mini to the job and getting a fair rate for the both being there. Today, you basically get the rate for 1 machine, if there is only 1 operator and not $1 more.


Again, what works well for one may not necessarily work for the next guy, and as long as you are turning a profit, that's all that matters.

Well said.

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 11:13 AM
What I have found is that tracked machines definitley have their place, and yes they are very poductive machines and can work in some pretty adverse conditions. It is also true that along with that versatility comes added expense in terms of maintenace. When times were "good" it was very easy to justify and collect the extra rates needed to operate these machines and turn a profit. However tracked machines are definetly best suited to new construction sites, and are not the most friendly on pavement and finshed landscapes.

With this down economy, new contruction here is basically dead (only 10 new home building permits were issued in 2009 in my county). I have had to change my business structure, downsize, and focus more on small jobs (i.e uitility lines, brush hogging, excavation for room additions/garages, small grading jobs, etc). For me doing this type of work the L48 shines, and is easy to transport, and is competitive on the bill rate. Gone are the days of bringing the SSL and Mini to the job and getting a fair rate for the both being there. Today, you basically get the rate for 1 machine, if there is only 1 operator and not $1 more.

Again, what works well for one may not necessarily work for the next guy, and as long as you are turning a profit, that's all that matters.

That has sparked my curiosity as why you said that.
Only about 5% of my work has ever been new construction. I understand what your saying about bring 2 machines and getting one rate for one operator but my 2 machines are way more productive than a TLB and since I do not work by the hour it is not a negative for me to have to bring a Mini ex and a CTL. However if I did work by the Hour I could see the advantage of having a TLB. I have a Friend that has a JD 310 and he takes to all types of work and it is versatile although slower.

curtisfarmer
01-16-2010, 01:05 PM
Oh boy, here we go*trucewhiteflag* A JD310 is not a TLB or L48 comparable machine. A JD310 is 2X the machine and is JUST a backhoe. No QA upfront, no 3pt, hoe doesn't come off, on and on and on. I have never seen anyone around here bring a full size hoe to job which needs a CTL or TLB, other than someone that it is the only machine they have. Everyone and their brother has a full size hoe around here, dime a dozen. I gotta run, growing brides and grooms today........but will comment later.:)

ga site works
01-16-2010, 01:09 PM
Basically most of what I said is based solely on what the market conditions are for me here. I is not uncommon to be doing work for a per hour or per day rate especially lately. It seems that rates have dropped to about 2/3 of where they were 2 years ago going back. Also perception I think has something do with things, I think sometimes clients eqate more iron=more $$$$ they have to pay for the job - for what reason I don't know. New construction here has basically died in the last 18 months. It is easier for me to take a rubber tired tractor into someones "finished" property to to a job, and make less of a mess to clean up in the majority of cases. Even with experience tracked machines can tear stuff up, and when you have to track on pavement to move materials and such, it puts extra wear on the UC. TLB's are a bit slower, but very versatile machines. For a guy that wants to do a little of everything, with on machine; probably the way to go. By TLB I mean Kubota l48 and the like (qa and hydraulics up front, 3pt, etc).

mudmaker
01-16-2010, 01:46 PM
I am still trying to figure out how that little kubota can even be compared to a ctl. Sure you can put attachments on it, but I just don't see how they are at all comparable.

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 02:46 PM
Oh boy, here we go*trucewhiteflag* A JD310 is not a TLB or L48 comparable machine. A JD310 is 2X the machine and is JUST a backhoe. No QA upfront, no 3pt, hoe doesn't come off, on and on and on. I have never seen anyone around here bring a full size hoe to job which needs a CTL or TLB, other than someone that it is the only machine they have. Everyone and their brother has a full size hoe around here, dime a dozen. I gotta run, growing brides and grooms today........but will comment later.:)

My point being if a full size hoe cannot be near as productive as my machines a TLb like he runs would just be a waste of time to bring to the jobs I do. It would turn 1 day jobs into days of work.
Of course you may not understand this as you are not reliant on your equipment making you a living obviously.

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 03:02 PM
Basically most of what I said is based solely on what the market conditions are for me here. I is not uncommon to be doing work for a per hour or per day rate especially lately. It seems that rates have dropped to about 2/3 of where they were 2 years ago going back. Also perception I think has something do with things, I think sometimes clients eqate more iron=more $$$$ they have to pay for the job - for what reason I don't know. New construction here has basically died in the last 18 months. It is easier for me to take a rubber tired tractor into someones "finished" property to to a job, and make less of a mess to clean up in the majority of cases. Even with experience tracked machines can tear stuff up, and when you have to track on pavement to move materials and such, it puts extra wear on the UC. TLB's are a bit slower, but very versatile machines. For a guy that wants to do a little of everything, with on machine; probably the way to go. By TLB I mean Kubota l48 and the like (qa and hydraulics up front, 3pt, etc).

The industry dumped here a couple years ago.

I actually specialize in working in backyards and having a CTL is a big plus for me. I use my machine everywhere and I am not experiencing many of the things your are mentioning and my machine weighs 10k pounds.
There are many misconceptions out there about CTL machines as well as MTL machines. It really does not matter what machine you use as long as it makes you money. I am not a fan of hourly rates nor will I ever be. I picked equipment that allows me versatility, ability to be non invasive to existing landscape, and efficiency. My mental makeup does not allow me to accept using a machine that is wrong for the job for the sole reason that I can bill it hourly and sit on the machine counting hours. It obviously works for some but I would rather bid a job, get it done as fast as possible, come home and relax. This is not a jab at you or anyone, but I will add that if I have the opportunity to compete with someone like you here I will eat you alive. The market here is super competitive. For the last 15 years Ga has had some of the fastest growing counties in the USA. Counties here where averaging 200 plus new home permits a month. I did say counties. When it fell apart there where 200k+ developed lots that where abandoned. So take all those contractors and compete against them in this market with zero new construction.

Welcome to Lawnsite.

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 03:04 PM
I am still trying to figure out how that little kubota can even be compared to a ctl. Sure you can put attachments on it, but I just don't see how they are at all comparable.

Most of these guys just have no experience with CTL's so they basically gather information and use it to suit there agenda.
Kind of like Gravel Rat.

ga site works
01-16-2010, 03:42 PM
Not at all saying I like to work by the hour and such, its been a matter of doing what needs to be done to survive. One can only take the work as it comes, so it is what it is i guess. Its a buyers market out there now, I agree to the fact of bid the job and try to be as efficient as possible. I am certain things will come around, but it's gonna be awhile I'm afraid, so it' survival mode for now. I still own a CTL and there are pro and cons to both. Right now tractor sees more use for me. When and if the market comes back I am sure things will adjust again. I would not consider a l48 a "little Kubota. A BX series is a "little" Kubota.

ksss
01-16-2010, 04:08 PM
Oh boy, here we go*trucewhiteflag* A JD310 is not a TLB or L48 comparable machine. A JD310 is 2X the machine and is JUST a backhoe. No QA upfront, no 3pt, hoe doesn't come off, on and on and on. I have never seen anyone around here bring a full size hoe to job which needs a CTL or TLB, other than someone that it is the only machine they have. Everyone and their brother has a full size hoe around here, dime a dozen. I gotta run, growing brides and grooms today........but will comment later.:)


Hey Curtis,
A 310 is a TLB just like every other "backhoe".

TLB stands for Tractor Loader Backhoe of which a 310 certainly is. A L48 would be considered a compact TLB.

curtisfarmer
01-16-2010, 04:21 PM
AWJ, seems like you know everything, including what people like me do for a living. That is amazing, must come with owning a CTL ( I am not bashing CTLs, just this particular comment). Or maybe your just making assumptions while viewing the worlkd through your perspective. Both are not helpful and both make you come off like an ass. I know you are the man and don't work by the hour and only do this or that and you are super profitable with your CTL. Really? I doubt it and I don't care. :laugh:Although I find your posts informative, your views that a CTL is the best for everything just doesn't hold water for me. And that doesn't mean it is not true, just that glove dosent fit everyone. Why bother discussuing a JD310, that is like saying I brought a CAT 98# trackloader and it did great, better than your CTL??? In fact, I think there are a few machines which are just as handy. You and others may want to believe your own justifications, but there are other people out there (like me) who don't neccessarly argue their narrow points of view like yourself but rather explain what works for them.

Oh ya, eat someone alive :laugh::laugh::laugh: by not working by the hour with your CTL and its super competitive...and I bid jobs and go home as soon as possible....with my CTL:laugh: Please, I can only imagine when that philosophy pisses of some customers, and they call some else.:clapping:

YellowDogSVC
01-16-2010, 04:44 PM
Why do these forums get so personal with the attacks? Everyone is entitled to an opinion and it shouldn't come down to a p*ssing match. It's a real turnoff.. I come here for legitimate advice. I have been in business as a corporate entity since '97 and would consider myself "experienced" but I have questions on a daily basis that someone may or may not be able to answer. If I filter through all the guesses, uneducated opinions, and bullcrap, there might be a golden rule I can use but it is a bit uncomfortable, even in a forum, to read through the personal attacks. Can't we all get along? :)

P.Services
01-16-2010, 05:01 PM
How did I miss this thread! I look forward to reading all 20 pages as soon as I get home, then I will give you my opinion. I would bet no one on this site has spent more money fixing a ctl then me.
Posted via Mobile Device

curtisfarmer
01-16-2010, 06:02 PM
[QUOTE=AWJ Services;3363312]but I will add that if I have the opportunity to compete with someone like you here I will eat you alive.

A self proclaimed proverbial CTL:laugh:

I am just busting balls, the discussion is great with excellent posts. If everyone lived closer I would say come over and lets have some beers:drinkup::drinkup:

curtisfarmer
01-16-2010, 06:03 PM
Hey Curtis,
A 310 is a TLB just like every other "backhoe".

TLB stands for Tractor Loader Backhoe of which a 310 certainly is. A L48 would be considered a compact TLB.

Although TLB may be the common term, I view a TLB as a machine which does more than dig such as mows, QA, remote hyds., plow,...just like a CTL does but a full size hoe won't. In this CTL-small equipment context I am using it as a comparable machine for discussion. Again, I am not injecting TLBs into this discussion.

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 06:04 PM
Not at all saying I like to work by the hour and such, its been a matter of doing what needs to be done to survive. One can only take the work as it comes, so it is what it is i guess. Its a buyers market out there now, I agree to the fact of bid the job and try to be as efficient as possible. I am certain things will come around, but it's gonna be awhile I'm afraid, so it' survival mode for now. I still own a CTL and there are pro and cons to both. Right now tractor sees more use for me. When and if the market comes back I am sure things will adjust again. I would not consider a l48 a "little Kubota. A BX series is a "little" Kubota.

It was really tough here as well and I understand having to do what you can to make a living. I own a Kubota tractor and I use it often. At one time more than my CTL.

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 06:06 PM
Why do these forums get so personal with the attacks? Everyone is entitled to an opinion and it shouldn't come down to a p*ssing match. It's a real turnoff.. I come here for legitimate advice. I have been in business as a corporate entity since '97 and would consider myself "experienced" but I have questions on a daily basis that someone may or may not be able to answer. If I filter through all the guesses, uneducated opinions, and bullcrap, there might be a golden rule I can use but it is a bit uncomfortable, even in a forum, to read through the personal attacks. Can't we all get along? :)

It's the internet everyones a tough guy?

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 06:09 PM
I found a pic of Curtis Farmer



http://wcuk.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/1195455133059.jpg

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 06:11 PM
Does this look familar?


http://www.global-changes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Internet_argument.jpg

bobcat_ron
01-16-2010, 06:11 PM
Aww, someone ain't playing nice.

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 06:13 PM
http://blog.pauked.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/duty-calls.jpg

bobcat_ron
01-16-2010, 06:16 PM
Where's Bob when you need that crazy bugger, he's got the best pics.

curtisfarmer
01-16-2010, 06:17 PM
Thats what i thought everybody, immature:laugh:.

Anyways, we won't let that tarnish this discussion.:nono:

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 07:11 PM
Thats what i thought everybody, immature:laugh:.

Anyways, we won't let that tarnish this discussion.:nono:

At least my reading comprehension skills exceed a 6th grade level.:rolleyes:

curtisfarmer
01-16-2010, 07:20 PM
Give it up AWJ, grow up. :hammerhead:

I expect better from the self proclaimed proverbial CTL:laugh::laugh::laugh:


AWJ Services "but I will add that if I have the opportunity to compete with someone like you here I will eat you alive.":laugh::laugh::laugh:

I enjoy your informative posts, now you are just making a fool out of yourself. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

AWJ Services
01-16-2010, 07:25 PM
Give it up AWJ, grow up. :hammerhead:

I expect better from the self proclaimed proverbial CTL:laugh::laugh::laugh:


AWJ Services "but I will add that if I have the opportunity to compete with someone like you here I will eat you alive.":laugh::laugh::laugh:

I enjoy your informative posts, now you are just making a fool out of yourself. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Glad I can entertain.

ksss
01-18-2010, 01:03 PM
Although TLB may be the common term, I view a TLB as a machine which does more than dig such as mows, QA, remote hyds., plow,...just like a CTL does but a full size hoe won't. In this CTL-small equipment context I am using it as a comparable machine for discussion. Again, I am not injecting TLBs into this discussion.


Oh.......well unfortunately we don't get to rename and catagorize machines as to what we believe they should stand for. Not looking for a fight, just saying that a TLB is not what you described even though you may like to call it so. It makes it a little confusing when you write that a 310 is not a TLB, and makes it sound like you don't know what your talking about.

PS....I am not sure what your saying


QUOTE=curtisfarmer;3363590]Although TLB may be the common term, I view a TLB as a machine which does more than dig such as mows, QA, remote hyds., plow,...just like a CTL does but a full size hoe won't. In this CTL-small equipment context I am using it as a comparable machine for discussion. Again, I am not injecting TLBs into this discussion.[/QUOTE]

I did very well in reading comprehension (5 stars as I recall) but this is beyond me.

Digdeep
01-18-2010, 01:48 PM
Oh.......well unfortunately we don't get to rename and catagorize machines as to what we believe they should stand for. Not looking for a fight, just saying that a TLB is not what you described even though you may like to call it so. It makes it a little confusing when you write that a 310 is not a TLB, and makes it sound like you don't know what your talking about.

PS....I am not sure what your saying


QUOTE=curtisfarmer;3363590]Although TLB may be the common term, I view a TLB as a machine which does more than dig such as mows, QA, remote hyds., plow,...just like a CTL does but a full size hoe won't. In this CTL-small equipment context I am using it as a comparable machine for discussion. Again, I am not injecting TLBs into this discussion.

I did very well in reading comprehension (5 stars as I recall) but this is beyond me.[/QUOTE]

ksss....stars are so old school. We don't give them out in class anymore since we switched to smiley faces :), and then letter grades. I'm assuming that 5 stars would be an A+ in "today's parlance".:drinkup: I must not have been paying close enough attention in my classes because this thread makes no sense to me anymore now that we're comparing apples and oranges.

ksss
01-18-2010, 02:02 PM
I did very well in reading comprehension (5 stars as I recall) but this is beyond me.

ksss....stars are so old school. We don't give them out in class anymore since we switched to smiley faces :), and then letter grades. I'm assuming that 5 stars would be an A+ in "today's parlance".:drinkup: I must not have been paying close enough attention in my classes because this thread makes no sense to me anymore now that we're comparing apples and oranges.[/QUOTE]



WHAT? Did away with STARS? Smiley faces/Letter grades? I consider this the dumbing down of our educational system. Next your gonna tell me that they have moved the outhouse to inside the school. :hammerhead::hammerhead:


As far as this thread goes, I could careless. I just hate to see a fight go on without having something to say.:rolleyes:

Digdeep
01-18-2010, 03:03 PM
ksss....stars are so old school. We don't give them out in class anymore since we switched to smiley faces :), and then letter grades. I'm assuming that 5 stars would be an A+ in "today's parlance".:drinkup: I must not have been paying close enough attention in my classes because this thread makes no sense to me anymore now that we're comparing apples and oranges.



WHAT? Did away with STARS? Smiley faces/Letter grades? I consider this the dumbing down of our educational system. Next your gonna tell me that they have moved the outhouse to inside the school. :hammerhead::hammerhead:[/QUOTE]

Yep....part of "No Child left Behind":laugh: We even have running water indoors now, but you can't use the ruler on the knuckles anymore:cry:

AWJ Services
01-18-2010, 03:22 PM
It's funny that this thread started off as a thread about CTL machines and now it is being refered to as the CTL vs TLB thread.

This is from ARP's thread.


Curtisfarmer- Thanks for the compliments. And yes, I did see that CTL vs TLB thread- I decided it was best to stay out of that one .


So much for tarnishing this discussion.:rolleyes:

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 03:41 PM
ksss, thanks for correcting me if I was wrong. I'll make sure I contact you for future editing.:)

I know you may and possibly others may call a backhoe a TLB, but I have never heard it that way. The only term a TLB has been used in any literature or discussions around here is something like a M59/L48, JD110, CBL40 and so forth. How is a backhoe a tractor? Please inform me since you seem so adament this is the corrct term.

BTW, just for giggles, I checked the Deere website and JD310 is a "backhoe loader". The JD110 is their TLB. You should follow up and send them some corrected literature since your holding my feet to the fire as well. But wait, maybe Deere AND I are wrong and you are right!:laugh::laugh: Too funny when someone writes 2 posts to correct someone and THEY are completely wrong. :laugh::laugh: :nono::nono: Don't worry, I know it looks you don't know what you are talking about and I won't call you out to admit it, just take the foot out of your mouth.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

As for my comparison, read it again. And you got 5 stars.....in what?

AWJ, what are you talking about again? This reply was about a JD310 and KSSS being WRONG and out of line. Please spare us more immature pictures and continue with your usually excellent posts.:)

AWJ Services
01-18-2010, 03:45 PM
ksss, thanks for correcting me if I was wrong. I'll make sure I contact you for future editing.:)

I know you may and possibly others may call a backhoe a TLB, but I have never heard it that way. The only term a TLB has been used in any literature or discussions around here is something like a M59/L48, JD110, CBL40 and so forth. How is a backhoe a tractor? Please inform me since you seem so adament this is the corrct term.

BTW, just for giggles, I checked the Deere website and JD310 is a "backhoe loader". The JD110 is their TLB. You should follow up and send them some corrected literature since your holding my feet to the fire as well. But wait, maybe Deere AND I are wrong and you are right!:laugh::laugh: Too funny when someone writes 2 posts to correct someone and THEY are completely wrong. :laugh::laugh: :nono::nono: Don't worry, I know it looks you don't know what you are talking about and I won't call you out to admit it, just take the foot out of your mouth.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

As for my comparison, read it again. And you got 5 stars.....in what?

AWJ, what are you talking about again? This reply was about a JD310 and KSSS being WRONG and out of line. Please spare us more immature pictures and continue with your usually excellent posts.:)

Reading comprehension. Look it up.

What is this thread about?
Who brought a TLB into this discussion?

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 03:52 PM
Give it up AWJ, you must be bored. I brought the TLB into the discyussion early on, first page I believe to compare the CTL and TLB in simple operating costs and overall costs to what people where complaining a CTL is or isn't.

I closed my comments early on the TLB discussion but you still bring posts which you are complaining are not related.

It wasn't a direct comparison though I look forward to a thread on this subject soon. Just provide some content as opposed to sniping and being so prickly.:nono:

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 03:54 PM
Oh, I forgot, AWJ brought the JD310 subject to the table.:laugh:

Digdeep
01-18-2010, 04:23 PM
ksss, thanks for correcting me if I was wrong. I'll make sure I contact you for future editing.:)

I know you may and possibly others may call a backhoe a TLB, but I have never heard it that way. The only term a TLB has been used in any literature or discussions around here is something like a M59/L48, JD110, CBL40 and so forth. How is a backhoe a tractor? Please inform me since you seem so adament this is the corrct term.

BTW, just for giggles, I checked the Deere website and JD310 is a "backhoe loader". The JD110 is their TLB. You should follow up and send them some corrected literature since your holding my feet to the fire as well. But wait, maybe Deere AND I are wrong and you are right!:laugh::laugh: Too funny when someone writes 2 posts to correct someone and THEY are completely wrong. :laugh::laugh: :nono::nono: Don't worry, I know it looks you don't know what you are talking about and I won't call you out to admit it, just take the foot out of your mouth.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

As for my comparison, read it again. And you got 5 stars.....in what?

AWJ, what are you talking about again? This reply was about a JD310 and KSSS being WRONG and out of line. Please spare us more immature pictures and continue with your usually excellent posts.:)

Most folks understand TLB or BHL to mean backhoe loader. Click on the links:

http://www.associatedequipment.co.za/main.html
click on T.L.Bs

http://www.equiptrain.com/tlbbook.htm

http://equipment.forconstructionpros.com/profile/11602/Terex_ASV

Digdeep
01-18-2010, 05:31 PM
I know you may and possibly others may call a backhoe a TLB, but I have never heard it that way. The only term a TLB has been used in any literature or discussions around here is something like a M59/L48, JD110, CBL40 and so forth. How is a backhoe a tractor? Please inform me since you seem so adament this is the corrct term.

This reply was about a JD310 and KSSS being WRONG and out of line. Please spare us more immature pictures and continue with your usually excellent posts.:)

http://www.google.com/search?q=history+of+the+tractor+loader+backhoe&hl=en&rlz=1T4DMUS_enUS214US216&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=l9BUS-7gIIyOkQWzpMW5Cg&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CCgQ5wIwCg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backhoe_loader

http://fliiby.com/file/188744/if5az48qtq.html

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 05:38 PM
Digdeep, thanks for links, I will look at them soon....plowing snow today. Please add the Deere link too, as that was the specific machine in question.:)

Anyways, does anyone mow (rotary) with CTL like ARP?:weightlifter:

mudmaker
01-18-2010, 06:00 PM
Maybe we need a Compact TLB's vs every other piece of equipment on the market thread!:)

AWJ Services
01-18-2010, 06:09 PM
Give it up AWJ, you must be bored. I brought the TLB into the discyussion early on, first page I believe to compare the CTL and TLB in simple operating costs and overall costs to what people where complaining a CTL is or isn't.
I closed my comments early on the TLB discussion but you still bring posts which you are complaining are not related.

It wasn't a direct comparison though I look forward to a thread on this subject soon. Just provide some content as opposed to sniping and being so prickly.:nono:

Thank you for admiting that you tarnished the thread.
I am glad we are on the same page

stuvecorp
01-18-2010, 06:11 PM
Give it up AWJ, you must be bored. I brought the TLB into the discyussion early on, first page I believe to compare the CTL and TLB in simple operating costs and overall costs to what people where complaining a CTL is or isn't.

I closed my comments early on the TLB discussion but you still bring posts which you are complaining are not related.

It wasn't a direct comparison though I look forward to a thread on this subject soon. Just provide some content as opposed to sniping and being so prickly.:nono:

YOU keep bringing the TLB or Kubota thingy up, everyone else was discussing the CTL. I don't mind wandering threads but if you want to talk about the Glorious TLB/tractor loader or whatever you consider it start a thread and we can dissect it there.

I was waiting for Picasso to start the 'When CTL's attack' thread...

AWJ Services
01-18-2010, 06:13 PM
Maybe we need a Compact TLB's vs every other piece of equipment on the market thread!:)

I was thinking of a TLb vs my Kitchenaid mixer since the mixer has a QA on the front which seperates it from all other m,ixers and even though it's called a mixer it is not really a mixer since it is not like other mixers.

mudmaker
01-18-2010, 06:19 PM
I was thinking of a TLb vs my Kitchenaid mixer since the mixer has a QA on the front which seperates it from all other m,ixers and even though it's called a mixer it is not really a mixer since it is not like other mixers.


LOL!! That works!!:laugh:

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 06:21 PM
Listen, I am sitting here waiting for responses to CTLs and QA mowers, and all I hear are attacks or posts keeping the "myth" of the TLB alive. Blow me.:laugh::laugh: Bunch of know it alls, comment for everything.

From joining LS and this being the real 1st thread I have particpated in, what a bunch CTL driving girls. Are all you girls in the same basement right now texting eachother and watching American Idol?:laugh::laugh:

Anyway.

AWJ Services
01-18-2010, 06:30 PM
Listen, I am sitting here waiting for responses to CTLs and QA mowers, and all I hear are attacks or posts keeping the "myth" of the TLB alive. Blow me.:laugh::laugh: Bunch of know it alls, comment for everything.

From joining LS and this being the real 1st thread I have particpated in, what a bunch CTL driving girls. Are all you girls in the same basement right now texting eachother and watching American Idol?:laugh::laugh:

Anyway.

It's called Hijacking a thread. You seem to be very comfortable doing it .
Start your own thread and quit hijacking this one.

In case you do not remember the OP started a thread about " CTL's are the Devil: Fact or Myth?"


See if this helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_comprehension

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 06:33 PM
Ahh, the self proclaimed proverbial CTL herself.:laugh::laugh: Do you have a mower for your CTL AWJ?:confused:

Skidsteerman
01-18-2010, 06:50 PM
I am one of the few people that has no need for a wheeled skid steer.
The reality is a machine should make you money, hopefully lots of it so if it is really a big deal that your machine brought 25k rather than 18k on trade in maybe you are in the wrong business.
A machine's primary purpose in life and it's most important reason to purchase is it's ability to generate income and that means moving material which generates income. Ride, resale value, cost of ownership, etc are secondary. This may bristle a few feathers but I just feel that often people bias there opinions to suit there color and so that there purchases are justified and the ultimate need to be proven right. For some people change is not good.LOL

I could not have done 50% of my work this year with a tired machine. Sure I could have spent 15k extra for tracks but we all see the resale of the setups so I cannot fathom why it would be a viable alternative without even taking into consideration the fact that no one know's what the long term operating costs of that setup will be or what damage it will do to the machine.
I also could go steel tracks over tires but I spent time on lawns, streets and concrete. Just not a viable solution.
So I bought a track machine. It starts every day and works in all climates and conditions. I never have to think twice of whether I may need different tires, steel tracks, VTS, blah blah blah. I just go to work. When I get done I load the machine up and come home.
At a 1000 hours I will spend about 3500 dollars. Take the cost of your tires from that and then thats what I will spend more than you. If anyone here cannot justify spending that on a machine after 1000 hours frankly you are in the wrong business. Plus I do not get flat tires , do less damage to lawns and unless your using your machine to haul loose material around a job site I will be way more productive. Even if I spent twice that the machine more than make up for it.
On the ride? I just do not think it is an issue.

KSSS may not be a fan of CTL's but the first thing out of his mouth when you ask him about his experience with his equipment is" This machine is Productive" he does not first mention he has an ipod plug in port or xm radio, amics, suspened undercarriage, blah blah blah he always opens up first with production. I have a feeling he might be on to something.

Does that mean everyone needs a CTL?
Maybe, Maybe not.
This "CTL is a money pit and your crazy for owning one" repertoire is getting old.
The only thing I can say that I would consider factual is that if you are excavating, grading year in and year out a CTL will out work a tired machine.
My opinion is if you use a CTl and bill it correctly over the the life of the machine it will have a lower percentage of cost in relation to generated money than a tired machine.

Pretty dead on from my experience.

When a contractor is looking to switch from a sslder to a CTL several things are discussed to help with their decision making.

Difference in production and the do's and don't for CTLs (Don't run them in shot rock or creek gravel if you don't want your tracks destroyed) cost of ownership, sad resale values etc etc. Only machine that seems to hold a descent resale value and always has is the mid sized chassis sslder. No large frame machine ever holds a good resale value be it a sslder or CTL. Don't purchase one of these machines for that reason and don't put that on top of your priority list. It should be performance and production. It's sole principal is to generate income and they can do that in more ways then a sslder can.

Usually CTL's are on average $15K higher selling price new then their like sized sslder are. Should be able to recover that cost fairly quick over a sslder due to being able to work in wet soft conditions were as the sslder would be parked. Less turf damage results in less turf repair cost.

These units are more expensive to operate per hour and should be billed to the job accordingly. Not too many people I know make the same or less with a CTL Vs their sslder when they owned one.

So long as people looking to get into a CTL over a sslder understand this up front, it lets them know before hand what to expect and plan accordingly.

If you want to keep your equipment fresh every one or two years, I would recommend looking into a leasing option. Maybe more of a tax advantage and usually does not show up as an asset on your books. Every one or two years, take it back and walk into another new fresh unit. It's easy for people to get upside down on these units. Take out a 5 year note to keep payments low but trade it back in in two to three years with high hours and in need of tracks and repairs. Not a happy route to go.

bobcat_ron
01-18-2010, 07:34 PM
If it has a loader on the front, front mounted engine, looks like a tractor and 4 rubber tires and it has a back hoe on the rear, it's a TLB, no matter what size.
The JCB 1CX is also in the TLB category, although it steers like a skid steer.

AWJ Services
01-18-2010, 07:44 PM
Pretty dead on from my experience.

When a contractor is looking to switch from a sslder to a CTL several things are discussed to help with their decision making.

Difference in production and the do's and don't for CTLs (Don't run them in shot rock or creek gravel if you don't want your tracks destroyed) cost of ownership, sad resale values etc etc. Only machine that seems to hold a descent resale value and always has is the mid sized chassis sslder. No large frame machine ever holds a good resale value be it a sslder or CTL. Don't purchase one of these machines for that reason and don't put that on top of your priority list. It should be performance and production. It's sole principal is to generate income and they can do that in more ways then a sslder can.

Usually CTL's are on average $15K higher selling price new then their like sized sslder are. Should be able to recover that cost fairly quick over a sslder due to being able to work in wet soft conditions were as the sslder would be parked. Less turf damage results in less turf repair cost.

These units are more expensive to operate per hour and should be billed to the job accordingly. Not too many people I know make the same or less with a CTL Vs their sslder when they owned one.

So long as people looking to get into a CTL over a sslder understand this up front, it lets them know before hand what to expect and plan accordingly.

If you want to keep your equipment fresh every one or two years, I would recommend looking into a leasing option. Maybe more of a tax advantage and usually does not show up as an asset on your books. Every one or two years, take it back and walk into another new fresh unit. It's easy for people to get upside down on these units. Take out a 5 year note to keep payments low but trade it back in in two to three years with high hours and in need of tracks and repairs. Not a happy route to go.


I agree a CTL is a situational machine as I have stated all along. It does what it does well.
Great post.

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 07:46 PM
2 great posts from AWJ and Skidsteerman:clapping:

ksss
01-18-2010, 08:02 PM
2 great posts from AWJ and Skidsteerman:clapping:


This is more fun than cleaning my shop. Athough beating up on the mental challenged is not my usual sport, times are tough so we get our kicks where we can.

A Deere backhoe is a TLB. I cant believe you are arguing that but like I said times are slow.

Yes please feel free to first pm me with what you intend to post. Perhaps I can help you out some.

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 08:08 PM
KSSS, I too find humor in all this. :waving: Like I said, I wish everyone could come over and we could all make fun of eachother over beers:drinkup::) At job sites, that is all my crew and I do all day, make fun of eachother to pass the time. I don't know what to say, I think I said all I want ( and everyone else wants too:)) about TLBs and the JD310 within this thread. Please don't be biased if JD and I have common, regional I guess, interpretations of the same term.

I am interested about QA mowers with CTLs and perhaps this may be an appropriate forum to hear some opinions without hijacking.

stuvecorp
01-18-2010, 08:53 PM
This is more fun than cleaning my shop. Athough beating up on the mental challenged is not my usual sport, times are tough so we get our kicks where we can.

A Deere backhoe is a TLB. I cant believe you are arguing that but like I said times are slow.

Yes please feel free to first pm me with what you intend to post. Perhaps I can help you out some.

I'm already losing my enthusiasm for doing shop work.:hammerhead: I want to clean and throw out and keep getting 'that's to good to throw' from Dad. Think I'll start designing my shipping container shop.

curtisfarmer
01-18-2010, 09:01 PM
Stuvecorp, come on over, I filled my wifes car with 10 cases of beer when I went out last night. She's pissed..........but I have a $#^# load of beer!!:cool2:

WI isn't THAT far. I'll pick up ARP!:usflag:

YellowDogSVC
01-18-2010, 09:30 PM
have any of you heard of teamspeak? We use it for our gaming clan..good place to chat live and poke fun at each other's ideas. What's great is the channels are passworded so the truly obnoxious are excluded.

It would be fun on a forum like this.

Tigerotor77W
01-18-2010, 10:34 PM
Good lord this thread got amusing fast!

ARP
01-19-2010, 12:27 AM
And to think I was naive enough to think I was going to be able to stay out of this!:laugh: (Nice find on that quote btw, AWJ :laugh:).

Anyways, carry on. This thread is giving me some good laughs :laugh::laugh:

So when do we get to compare a Tonka Truck vs CTL vs "TLB" in terms of the comparative cost of operating all three? My bet is on the Tonka truck being the cheapest and most productive, but what do I know :laugh:

stuvecorp
01-19-2010, 12:34 AM
Keep it on the down low - my nephews and their Tonkas are my secret weapon. A couple cookies and they will haul, I can under cut everyone...

Junior M
01-19-2010, 07:58 AM
This is more fun than cleaning my shop. Athough beating up on the mental challenged is not my usual sport, times are tough so we get our kicks where we can.

A Deere backhoe is a TLB. I cant believe you are arguing that but like I said times are slow.

Yes please feel free to first pm me with what you intend to post. Perhaps I can help you out some.
you sure beat up on me alot.. ;)


so I must not be mentally challenged.. :cool2: :laugh:

Junior M
01-19-2010, 08:00 AM
Keep it on the down low - my nephews and their Tonkas are my secret weapon. A couple cookies and they will haul, I can under cut everyone...
You under cut them on the hauling. Me and Hanau will undercut the grading and excavating with his boat trailer grader and my trailer mounted backhoe..

curtisfarmer
01-19-2010, 10:56 AM
If you were gonna exclude Tonkas, what am I going to have to talk about :) or to bring to the next job?:cry:

CascadingCreations
01-19-2010, 11:10 PM
Have both a wheeled machine and a CTL......love them both equally......I can definately use the track machine better on slopes...a lot more stable.