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YellowDogSVC
01-03-2010, 11:29 PM
As some of you know, I have a Bobcat s330. to save on weight and width, I bought the machine and swapped out the 14-17.5 for the 12-16.5 hulk tires.
Question to some of you who may run bigger tires on a skid. Is the swap back worth it for more flotation and traction?

I'm looking for a temporary solution to get me through the damp season. Nothing is really drying out and some of the log loads I carry are above 3k lbs. Not only am I leaving ruts, I am simply not getting much traction. Of course, part of the issue is the hulk tires but would a wider footprint make much of a difference?

I'm holding off on OTT tracks because I haven't gotten enough answers on weather or not they will allow me to work without tearing up properties when I move the dead oaks. I remember the old days running my OTT loegering trailblazers and they were rough on the ground. I've been looking at rubber pad OTT tracks but I still think they will be rough.

Thanks for the input! --- Yellow Dog

AEL
01-03-2010, 11:33 PM
Yellowdog- I find the bigger tires do help on our 330, but its not by any means a night and day difference. Have you looked into an A300 bobcat. You could always swap to turf tires when working in sensitive areas, and if you really wanted just get the extra counterweight for it...

YellowDogSVC
01-03-2010, 11:48 PM
Yellowdog- I find the bigger tires do help on our 330, but its not by any means a night and day difference. Have you looked into an A300 bobcat. You could always swap to turf tires when working in sensitive areas, and if you really wanted just get the extra counterweight for it...

I may have 5 different jobs in the course of a week. All different so it's tough to swap out tires. That why I don't want OTT metal tracks again. Too much time swapping stuff out.
I used to want to run bulky hulks because hulks last me 1500 to 2000 hours but didn't want the width. I have a brand new set of s330 14 ply tires and rims just sitting here and thought I would give it a go but if it's not that big a difference, I may not go through the trouble ( I also have to swap the bobtach back out because they are angled different).

It will dry out again and won't be an issue for a lot of jobs but this winter and spring are supposed to be wet or damp. So many seeps and springs are running that traction/flotation will certainly be an issue especially when I'm cleaning up the oak wilt and carrying the very heavy trunks and logs over the same areas all day.

Oh, I already stripped all the counterweights I could off my s330 (axle and back door weights) to help keep me from bogging the machine down. When I had my machine weighed, with cab, AC and 74 CI bucket I weighed 8,900 lbs. That tells me the book weight is off because the stock rims and tires are much heavier than the hulks plus I took off somewhere around 360lbs of counterweights (6 axle weights and 2 door weights).

ksss
01-04-2010, 12:41 AM
I bought a set of the 33X15's for my 440 a couple years ago. I used them in heavy mud. It was the most difficult conditions I had run in. I would say that the difference was substantial. Buying those tires saved that job for me. Those floatation tires can be a good alternative I think to tracks. Makes the machine wider and the tires are more expensive, but they certainly make a big difference.

Fieldman12
01-04-2010, 02:20 AM
I have not swapped tires on a skid but many times on farm equipment which would be at times running in similar conditions as you. Anytime you can go with a wider footprint you have less compaction and your foot print is not as deep in the ground. Only positive thing also that I am sure you have thought of but will not help you allot is if you could make some type of temporary road. Even at that though you will be driving off the road to where ever the log may be. The temporary road may not even be an option for you. I know in real wet areas it is common to incorporate lime into the soil which really helps dry it out. Maybe that could be used on a temporary road to help dry things a bit. I know I may be getting out there a little with my answer but just thought I would throw that out there.

YellowDogSVC
01-04-2010, 10:22 AM
Maybe that could be used on a temporary road to help dry things a bit. I know I may be getting out there a little with my answer but just thought I would throw that out there.

That would be a good idea except that I am usually working around a home that has established yard (notice I don't say lawn because it's usually weeds holding hands) and the owners are concerned about ruts and "yard" damage. Oak Wilt cleanup is inherently messy because these trees are often very large and fall to pieces when dropped. This pic is an example of a small piece of trunk...

Construct'O
01-04-2010, 11:05 AM
If me in your situration i still believe OTT solid rubber tracks would work and the cheaper way for now.Look for a used pair on ironplanet or ebay.

A guy not to far from me had a pair on his Case 430 and he was working in some muddy places that you wouldn't believe.Down fall of them as said on here before is tires inside might spin and scuff your tire.

In the worst mud you will be leaving tracks no matter what you have,look at dirt diggers post of the rut he was making with their CTL.

If i chnaged out to the bigger tires and still need more traction chain it up,i know pain ,but if it gets the job do do what you have too or set and wait for dryer days,whenever that will be.

No fix is going to work 100% of the time,no matter what you do.Mud here is solid ground this morning -22 below here:cry:Good luck:usflag:

RockSet N' Grade
01-04-2010, 01:22 PM
YellowDog........I know it is too little too late, but a year or so ago KSSS bought a complete pair of VTS for his machine for $5k.......I remember because he got his set for less than I got mine at $8k. I have not seen any on ironplanet as of late.......if I do, I will ping you.....

DUSTYCEDAR
01-04-2010, 01:34 PM
i gave up on trying to not rut up the place
i use plywood or should i say chip board about 6 bucks a sheet
its not the anwser for everyone but works for what i do

ksss
01-04-2010, 02:17 PM
i gave up on trying to not rut up the place
i use plywood or should i say chip board about 6 bucks a sheet
its not the anwser for everyone but works for what i do


I do the same thing even with VTS or my excavator which the specs say is 5 psi. I would like to get some of those poly mats that are advertised in the dirt mags.

DUSTYCEDAR
01-04-2010, 02:37 PM
poly mats about 200 bucks a sheet
they r nice but out of my budget

93turbo
01-04-2010, 02:56 PM
I got 8 of those duramats and they sure are nice and have been a life saver more then once.

Gravel Rat
01-04-2010, 03:23 PM
i gave up on trying to not rut up the place
i use plywood or should i say chip board about 6 bucks a sheet
its not the anwser for everyone but works for what i do

Plywood works you can go to a used building supply and usually they have used or damaged plywood forsale.

Becareful with OSB it can be slippery because it has that coating on it to make it water resistant.

I don't know if you guys have spruce plywood in the USA but its cheap its like regular fir plywood but lighter and cheaper and more durable than OSB.

ksss
01-04-2010, 06:54 PM
I got 8 of those duramats and they sure are nice and have been a life saver more then once.

Do they hold up well? Would you get the same brand again? What did you have to give for them?

mrsops
01-04-2010, 07:11 PM
I have alturna mats.. 100 times better then ply wood and it looks more professional

YellowDogSVC
01-04-2010, 07:30 PM
mats wouldn't work. I have to carry the logs, brush, tree trunks up to 100 yds or more. Everyone has big properties around here.
I'm still interested in VTS if the price was right. Weight is a big concern. I think CTL would be a jack of all trades for me but getting into one that I can mulch with..."cough" is expensive. I need to try and utilize the excavator more but as a one man show it's tough to get all the machines on site and still stay competitive. Other guys will go in and make a bloody mess. I have too many repeat customers and word of mouth to do that especially when I'm working on established lawns. So far, I've never made a real big mess with tires..either I stay home when it's wet or I waited for it to dry but I have been missing 4 days of work a week during parts of last fall. Clearing isn't as big of an issue. it's usually raw land so if I made a bit of a mess, then I could fix it quite easily by "brushing" the ground with cleared trees, spreading mulch, or running the mulcher over the clumps when the job is complete. Fixing a lawn is a little bit more work and those jobs are about 45% of my work load lately.
Thank God things dry out quick, though, in Texas!! I couldn't get used to what some of you Yankees put up with.. :)

93turbo
01-04-2010, 11:39 PM
Do they hold up well? Would you get the same brand again? What did you have to give for them?

I would have to look at them again to double check the name. I looked at a few but I'm pretty sure I got the duramats but its been a couple years now since I got them. I beleive it was right around $1200-$1300 delivered. They are holding up great so far I'm not sure of the specs I beleive they are 5/8 x 3' x8' with tread on both sides. I used them across a 3' wide trench that had been backfilled with the dirt a good foot above the ground and after I got my truck across they were probably 6-8" down in the trench and no signs of damage and theres no way plywood would have held up that good. I have no reason to switch brands yet.

YellowDogSVC
01-06-2010, 07:37 PM
Well, I got stuck in the mud not once, but twice today. Had to have a helper winch me out both times. Luckily my truck was able to cross the creek to get to the bobcat and attach the winch. This is getting ridiculous. I think I am going to look into metal tracks for now. Can't get McLaren to give me a price quote on rubber padded tracks and prowler tracks told me the s330 would tear them up..
Here's a question for some of your running OTT tracks.

I need flotation but I also need the least amount of damage to the ground as possible for OTT tracks.
I have run loegering trailblazers in the past. Kinda clanky, loud, and rough but good flotation.

I don't know much about cross bar or other options. Can someone with experience chime in? Thanks.

It's going to be a long winter and if we have a wet spring, I'm screwed running tires. I'm afraid that if I just put on my 14x17.5 tires, i will have similar issues. Granted, the Bobcat tires have better tread design than the hulks I'm running now but it's still a tire and though it's wider, they aren't super swampers..right?

ksss
01-06-2010, 07:57 PM
Well, I got stuck in the mud not once, but twice today. Had to have a helper winch me out both times. Luckily my truck was able to cross the creek to get to the bobcat and attach the winch. This is getting ridiculous. I think I am going to look into metal tracks for now. Can't get McLaren to give me a price quote on rubber padded tracks and prowler tracks told me the s330 would tear them up..
Here's a question for some of your running OTT tracks.

I need flotation but I also need the least amount of damage to the ground as possible for OTT tracks.
I have run loegering trailblazers in the past. Kinda clanky, loud, and rough but good flotation.

I don't know much about cross bar or other options. Can someone with experience chime in? Thanks.

It's going to be a long winter and if we have a wet spring, I'm screwed running tires. I'm afraid that if I just put on my 14x17.5 tires, i will have similar issues. Granted, the Bobcat tires have better tread design than the hulks I'm running now but it's still a tire and though it's wider, they aren't super swampers..right?


I have the same tracks. I am pretty happy with them. They replaced the Trailblazers with an F model or something like that. Don't know if they changed the tracks at all, maybe their improved somehow. OTT would be a low cost fix at least for now.

YellowDogSVC
01-06-2010, 09:38 PM
I have the same tracks. I am pretty happy with them. They replaced the Trailblazers with an F model or something like that. Don't know if they changed the tracks at all, maybe their improved somehow. OTT would be a low cost fix at least for now.

which ones do you have the trailblazers or cross bar? I had trailblazers from '98. They wore good but were time consuming to take on and off and were clanky as hell.

ksss
01-07-2010, 02:59 PM
which ones do you have the trailblazers or cross bar? I had trailblazers from '98. They wore good but were time consuming to take on and off and were clanky as hell.


I have the Trail Blazers. I don't mind the clanking. If you use their little hand winch thing, it was not bad taking them on and off. The floatation is excellent. I did some side hilling with them and it worked my tires over pretty good. I have Nu Airs now so who cares. I don't use them very often, but I may as the mulching continues to gain altitude. It will be May before the snow is gone up there and they are not going to want to wait for it to dry up. That would be like July.

YellowDogSVC
01-07-2010, 06:39 PM
I have the Trail Blazers. I don't mind the clanking. If you use their little hand winch thing, it was not bad taking them on and off. The floatation is excellent. I did some side hilling with them and it worked my tires over pretty good. I have Nu Airs now so who cares. I don't use them very often, but I may as the mulching continues to gain altitude. It will be May before the snow is gone up there and they are not going to want to wait for it to dry up. That would be like July.

Are you using VTS and mulching?

I have the hulks and the sidewalls are strong. I ran solid fill hulks under tracks for years.
Do you do any driveways with the trailblazers? I can't seem to remember how my driveways did with the tracks. I have a line on a used set of trailblazers.

Hey, off the subject KSSS, but have noticed increased performance when mulching in the cold? I just knocked out a job with 10" to 15", 30' trees and a number of 10" dead live oaks. It was like i was operating a machine with 2x the normal hp? Temps were in the 30's today. Yesterday temps were in the 40's to 50's. I am thinking that the cold fluid gets thick and is more efficient?

ksss
01-08-2010, 01:24 PM
Are you using VTS and mulching?

I have the hulks and the sidewalls are strong. I ran solid fill hulks under tracks for years.
Do you do any driveways with the trailblazers? I can't seem to remember how my driveways did with the tracks. I have a line on a used set of trailblazers.

Hey, off the subject KSSS, but have noticed increased performance when mulching in the cold? I just knocked out a job with 10" to 15", 30' trees and a number of 10" dead live oaks. It was like i was operating a machine with 2x the normal hp? Temps were in the 30's today. Yesterday temps were in the 40's to 50's. I am thinking that the cold fluid gets thick and is more efficient?


I have not done any mulching for since Winter started in earnest. My guess is the cooler the air the more easier it is for the machine to keep it cool, as the machine and hyd. fluid get warm the efficiency drops off. I see it big time in my big excavator when it gets really warm.

tallrick
01-09-2010, 01:28 AM
The wider tires are preferable to the narrower ones and I personally prefer the 16" wide tires on even the 763. With a worn-out set of those I can go over most lawns and even turn a bit without digging in. Now to be specific tread patterns do have an effect. The "ditch digger" tires have wide spaces between tread bars while the "skid steer" style tire has more tread bars and less space so you do not dig in as much. Most ground here is either sandy or rocky, and in sand the wider tires are mandatory. The 10" wide tires typical to a 763 will quickly sink in dry sand. The ditch digger style tire gives the best traction in the sand. Plywood, mats and the like are pretty useless. I do have a bit of conveyor belt that I use at times. Yet my preference remains for worn-out ditch digger tires which I lower the air pressure to as low as 20 psi. No ruts and any grass torn out regrows in short order as most roots remain. I have yet to find tracks for my machines.

YellowDogSVC
01-11-2010, 08:40 PM
ever feel like you are beating a dead horse?

Here's where I'm at. I found a set of loegering trailblazers for a very good price. My issue with metal OTT is having to load and unload on improved surfaces. I had two half-day grinding jobs today. One required me to unload on county road and the other had me driving over cement driveway. If I had OTT tracks I would have had to bring a lot of mats or plywood and/or take them off. That will get to be a pain. A few years back, I ran two machines. One with tracks one without. Both machines were identical and I just took the one I needed.

SO, here I am. I am told my 14 x 17.5 tires won't do THAT much better than my 12x16.5's so I think won't make that swap (plus those tires and rims are unused and can be sold).

So, I am left with three options.

1. Grin and bear it.. keep working with my hulk tires and hope it dries out soon
2. Purchase metal OTT tracks and hope I can schedule smart and/or get enough where either I need them or don't so as to minimize taking them on or off or taking mats or plywood.
3. Take a loss on my machine, trade in to a CTL and just be careful when working on rock but get traction in almost all situations where I am frustrated now.

That's what I'm wrestling with this week. Though work dried up, I don't want to get rid of my mini ex or toolcat so the only machine I have to sell or trade is my s330 which I really like. Any thoughts??

AEL
01-11-2010, 11:14 PM
Mabee put the wider tires on yellow dog, with your counter weights removed you might get better results then i did(mine arent removed). Its worth a try before you sell the machine! Good luck

ksss
01-11-2010, 11:43 PM
I think it comes down to a couple things Yellow. Does not sound like to me that running steel will work real well for you. Trading your machine in for a CTL will really be expensive. I think the case is really made for a set of VTS. I know you don't like the weight but with 18" of tracks the weight is a nonissue. With a mini ex taking the VTS off and on is easy. I think it solves all of your problems. You keep your 330 machine, you have tracks to get you around in the mud and help quicken your grading jobs verse wheels. You have the ability to go back to tires when you need to. You will be wider and heavier. You may need to get a deck over or a different trailer but that at least is adding to your net worth while helping you get your equipment around as opposed to trading for a CTL which sounds like it will put you upside down in the new CTL. As fast as they depreciate you cant afford to go into a CTL backwards. I know you have some reservations about the VTS, but there are a lot of guys running them I think its the best solution for you. I think you will like the VTS but if you want to make a change when its time to trade the 330 you can sell the VTS. I think you would find yourself getting another wheeled machine (hopefully a BIC equipped 465) and keep the VTS. IMHO.

YellowDogSVC
01-12-2010, 10:00 AM
I think it comes down to a couple things Yellow. Does not sound like to me that running steel will work real well for you. Trading your machine in for a CTL will really be expensive. I think the case is really made for a set of VTS. I know you don't like the weight but with 18" of tracks the weight is a nonissue. With a mini ex taking the VTS off and on is easy. I think it solves all of your problems. You keep your 330 machine, you have tracks to get you around in the mud and help quicken your grading jobs verse wheels. You have the ability to go back to tires when you need to. You will be wider and heavier. You may need to get a deck over or a different trailer but that at least is adding to your net worth while helping you get your equipment around as opposed to trading for a CTL which sounds like it will put you upside down in the new CTL. As fast as they depreciate you cant afford to go into a CTL backwards. I know you have some reservations about the VTS, but there are a lot of guys running them I think its the best solution for you. I think you will like the VTS but if you want to make a change when its time to trade the 330 you can sell the VTS. I think you would find yourself getting another wheeled machine (hopefully a BIC equipped 465) and keep the VTS. IMHO.

KSSS -- I have been looking at the VTS. A new set is $16500 which I thought was high. I have been looking on IP.. I would definitely need a new trailer, new bucket, new grapple, and probably be forced into CDL. I haven't seen a light deck over trailer but maybe haven't looked. I like the low center of gravity my utility trailer provides especially with all of the back roads I work on.

How is the track ride? I do so much grapple work carrying large logs on in rough fields but not sure how tracks would feel. I know my mini ex is somewhat of a rough ride even at 3.2 mph!

ksss
01-12-2010, 11:40 AM
KSSS -- I have been looking at the VTS. A new set is $16500 which I thought was high. I have been looking on IP.. I would definitely need a new trailer, new bucket, new grapple, and probably be forced into CDL. I haven't seen a light deck over trailer but maybe haven't looked. I like the low center of gravity my utility trailer provides especially with all of the back roads I work on.

How is the track ride? I do so much grapple work carrying large logs on in rough fields but not sure how tracks would feel. I know my mini ex is somewhat of a rough ride even at 3.2 mph!

Your dirt bucket would need to be wider, but I have a 73" grapple (the Saber tine bucket by Quick Attach) that is more narrow than is my VTS and its not an issue. If you have an enclosed bottom grapple that would need to be the same width at a min. as your VTS.

The VTS has some suspension to it, so rides quite nice, the tracks give some vibration in the older tread design, I am hoping that the newer design tread does not do that.

I forgot about the CDL issue.

You could if you already haven't and PM Dirty and speak to him in depth about the VTS since he has a set on a big Bobcat and get his thoughts.

KRtrax could likely find you a good deal on set. I would not pay full retail. No reason to, a little hunting and you should be able to save 8-10K.

I can get my 440 on my Tow Master trailer which is not a deck over, but just barely. I think it is 82" between the fender wells and the machine is about 80 with the little bolt thing. I agree with you on having a low deck height. I think the stability is much improved if you go to a back hoe style tag trailer with tandem duals as opposed to a single wheel deck over. A backhoe style tag with electric brakes are pretty cheap right now since the back hoe guys are dying off like T Rex.

RockSet N' Grade
01-12-2010, 12:28 PM
I kinda see the problem a little different now and different choices. Mattes, plywood, temp. ground support and others just don't fit. Vts is $9-$16k for a ballpark. Switching skids around is equity loss of (?) $15-25k. The game plan is not fitting this way. What about going the other way? Think of a small to medium loader from the TW50 (8k,51hp.,1 yd. bucket to the ?. I think it would depend on the rates....I know they are offering incentives like 3yr 3000hr. warranties as incentives. As for the trailer, pulling, and current set up I would go get a cdl class a license (nothing but a weekend class and some studying at minimum cost), reevaluate my options, and worry about pulling upgrades till later.

Junior M
01-12-2010, 09:06 PM
You might have to really look for this kind of trailer, but its like a low profile deckover. You actually drive over the fenders?

I'll get a truck or equipment trader and get you the info..

YellowDogSVC
01-12-2010, 10:47 PM
I haven't seen any small loaders with the hydraulic hp to run a mulcher. I ran my mulcher for about 7.5 hours today and though I was frustrated with traction, I'm never going down in motor size again. This 330 just runs the mulcher too good.
I do not do that much dirt work. I mostly do trees. I get spurts where I spend a lot of time doing driveways but I hardly ever dig. I bought the excavator to get into more digging, plus I needed it at my place where I practice anyway, so I don't really have a need for a small loader.
I looked at the difference in equity loss and VTS. I don't have all the numbers yet so I'm holding off.

Anyway, I appreciate all the advice. It's just a tough call to want to spend ANY money right now even if it may mean more work. Things just seem a bit slow..

Sam_French
01-17-2010, 12:26 PM
Do you still have the original tires? You could put on them chains. Since they are wider and taller than the Hulks. With the chains they would bite more in the mud. Your only cost would be the chains.

Have a nice day.

Sam

YellowDogSVC
01-20-2010, 01:26 PM
Well, I tried out the original 17.5x14 tires. I got a little more traction but I think that had more to do with the standard skid steer lug pattern versus the hulk pattern.
Not much of a difference and certainly not enough to justify the pain in the arse of switching over the bobtach ( the original is angled different to accommodate the taller tires).
I got a price of approximately $3500 for a set of protrac rubber. That's a good price I think. I also have a price of $2700 for a set of trailblazers but I would have trouble on asphalt.
It would take about $74k to get into a CTL. That's a lot of money.
My sales manager at Bobcat tells me not to go CTL because of upkeep costs but if I put aside repair money, I still think I could make it work and it would be a lighter setup with less headaches with tires. Still working on the ideas, though. Wet again today. We finished our grinding job right before the low clouds moved back in. Steady drizzle for 18 hours or so and everything is back to slop here.

stuvecorp
01-20-2010, 01:37 PM
If you were closer I'd send the 440 w/VTS for you to try. What about finding a CTL like a Tak with a 1000-1500 hours but one that is cheaper? I hate saying that but then you can leave it at home and it doesn't have to run a lot of hours?

I also don't know that the CTL's are that great in the muddy conditions, meaning they make a mess just not as bad?

YellowDogSVC
01-20-2010, 02:37 PM
If you were closer I'd send the 440 w/VTS for you to try. What about finding a CTL like a Tak with a 1000-1500 hours but one that is cheaper? I hate saying that but then you can leave it at home and it doesn't have to run a lot of hours?

I also don't know that the CTL's are that great in the muddy conditions, meaning they make a mess just not as bad?


I have ruled out VTS for now because of the width and weight.

Don't know about the mud. I have a tree shearing job to start on a 94AC ranch. We walked it Saturday and it was too muddy to support walking. Been drizzling for a while now and not much sun since Saturday. Good question on whether or not I could go to work with a CTL. I know my machine would make a mess. With the tree shear, I'm at 10,500 +/-lbs. That's a lot of weight on 14" tires, right?

OTT rubber pad tracks are only $3500 +/- but will my tires spin inside the tracks when they get damp? My older trailblazers were notorious for that leading to my tires getting chewed up though I could work in some tough places. I have also been told the ride on the rubber OTT tracks is very rough.

mxridernorth
01-20-2010, 03:16 PM
OTT rubber pad tracks are only $3500 +/- but will my tires spin inside the tracks when they get damp? My older trailblazers were notorious for that leading to my tires getting chewed up though I could work in some tough places. I have also been told the ride on the rubber OTT tracks is very rough.

I had a set of the McLaren Diamonds which are the same design as the protracs. I never had a problem spinning the tires inside the tracks though I was running a 753G with much less power. I also made sure the tension was kept in spec at all times. With the McLaren's it is easy to do. I think that you will be more than happy with the protracs.

YellowDogSVC
01-20-2010, 03:42 PM
I'm leaning towards a set of protrac rubber. Now I'm trying to see if I can get away without having to add spacers and keep my width down.

mxridernorth
01-20-2010, 03:49 PM
The only issue I had was that I needed to add a spacer to the boom so that the boom wouldn't hit the tracks. This and the thickness of the tracks then raised the bucket off the ground just enough to make grading a pain. I'm not sure if this would be an issue for your machine or situation. Another member on here mentioned that you can get some sort of offset adapter to counteract this effect.

YellowDogSVC
01-20-2010, 04:36 PM
My s330's bobtach is designed different than the other Bobcat large frame loaders. It accounts for the s330's taller tires. I figure that with the extra height of tracks, the s330's bobtach will allow my bucket to run very close to factory settings for tires.

mxridernorth
01-20-2010, 04:41 PM
Then I'd do it for sure. With the rubber tracks, I can't see why I'd ever take them off.

YellowDogSVC
01-24-2010, 12:03 AM
Well, though the deal for the McLaren tracks looks good at 3500 bucks, I will be adding an additional 1210 pounds to the machine making it a hefty 10,420 with my grapple. That's a lot of weight.. If I go with the dedicated CTL, I'm only at 9700-10,000. Not a big difference but it all adds up when hauling.. Ugghh. so much to think about!

stuvecorp
01-24-2010, 12:23 AM
Well, though the deal for the McLaren tracks looks good at 3500 bucks, I will be adding an additional 1210 pounds to the machine making it a hefty 10,420 with my grapple. That's a lot of weight.. If I go with the dedicated CTL, I'm only at 9700-10,000. Not a big difference but it all adds up when hauling.. Ugghh. so much to think about!

Would going with a smaller CTL work? The smaller Tak's can lift a lot if that is the concern? Or is it possible to rent a CTL for certain cases?

ksss
01-24-2010, 12:44 AM
Well, though the deal for the McLaren tracks looks good at 3500 bucks, I will be adding an additional 1210 pounds to the machine making it a hefty 10,420 with my grapple. That's a lot of weight.. If I go with the dedicated CTL, I'm only at 9700-10,000. Not a big difference but it all adds up when hauling.. Ugghh. so much to think about!

The only issue I can see with weight is in transport. On the ground it wouldn't matter other than giving you more tractive effort, assuming the machine can turn the weight which I woud think it could.

As far as transport. I think that the pressure felt to keep things under the CDL limit ( I am assuming that is the issue) or reluctance to upgrade trailer is an artificial limit your imposing on yourself. Its really about productivity. A CDL is not a big deal, certainly not a big enough deal to hold back your company for. Its some paperwork, a little more money, pee in a cup once a in a while and thats it. My suggestion for what it is worth is to find the very best solution be that OTT or VTS, I think you can rule out a CTL, then do what you need to logistically to make that happen, if that is getting a CDL or upgrade trailers so be it. I think your stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime here.

Good luck man,

YellowDogSVC
02-02-2010, 12:14 PM
The only issue I can see with weight is in transport. On the ground it wouldn't matter other than giving you more tractive effort, assuming the machine can turn the weight which I woud think it could.

As far as transport. I think that the pressure felt to keep things under the CDL limit ( I am assuming that is the issue) or reluctance to upgrade trailer is an artificial limit your imposing on yourself. Its really about productivity. A CDL is not a big deal, certainly not a big enough deal to hold back your company for. Its some paperwork, a little more money, pee in a cup once a in a while and thats it. My suggestion for what it is worth is to find the very best solution be that OTT or VTS, I think you can rule out a CTL, then do what you need to logistically to make that happen, if that is getting a CDL or upgrade trailers so be it. I think your stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime here.

Good luck man,

I do need to get my CDL. I don't have a truck or trailer to test with right now, though. I have a college degree so I shouldn't be afraid to test. The written I figure will be easy but the road test I will need practice and I want to do it in a vehicle I am used to. I figure I will upgrade eventually. Right now, though, I like being under CDL especially with the way I haul stuff on my flatbed. If I go CdL, I was told that I will have to have everything bolted down and/or DOT approved??

It's raining again. Not much traction. I worked Sunday Monday ahead of the rains burning. I haven't burned in years but it was work. I haven't been able to do much since last week because it rained.
I was able to use my Toolcat Sunday and Monday for about 19 hours moving and carrying brush to the burn piles. It performed absolutely wonderful. I was nervous about using it but found out a lot about it. I've had it 3 years and never put it through this much test. It lifted, pushed, carried, and dragged large trees. I could have used a little more traction because the ground was soft but I would have been stuck spinning in a skid.
I was able to pull my spray rig but figured I didn't need it with the drizzle so I just parked that and moved the brush. I have a new, deep respect for the engineering that went into that machine. From someone used to a 85 hp, 9500 lb skid, this little 56 hp turbo Toolcat did so much. These trees were very large and heavy bushy juniper. Some trees were about 30 ft tall and aabout 15 ft wide! I screwed up on the pics thing and forgot to take pictures.

What I liked about the toolcat other than the traction in the mud (imagine if it had mattracks, chains, or bigger tires), was having the 2 seats, room for my cooler with ice, radio, food, gloves, tools, etc. all with me.
I am going to find more work for the toolcat and customize it as best I can. I even have rear hydraulics and a pto to run a winch or something to assist.
I did bust one of my fenders but some baling wire held it together. I'm going to duct tape it for a few months until things pick up.
Anyway, the point was traction.
I have more respect for a TLB or tractor with grapple after working with this machine. The immediate difference, though, is the Toolcat can generate 16.9 gpm low flow and 26 gpm high flow at 3000 psi for running attachments. I tried out my high flow stump grinder and it did okay. So, I found a little bit of relief for the mud but still not able to clear land or grind.
Also, the toolcat doesn't have that great of a footprint so my traction is just okay but at least I don't rut anything up!

jefftb
02-02-2010, 03:34 PM
YellowDog,

I think these are the best looking rubber OTT on the market. A good combination of traction, life, and minimal ground disturbance. These were released by Solideal early last year. They are now in the market for 10/12" tires in the US and I think were briefly discussed here on Lawnsite not too long ago. Not sure how they would last in the jaggies though.

The Solideal US website is limited on info but here's a link to a Down Under website with a better picture. There is also several YouTube videos out there as well.

http://www.bearcat.com.au/products.php?action=viewSub&sub=117

YellowDogSVC
02-02-2010, 05:48 PM
jeffb, I like the look of those OTT tracks but wonder how I would shed a rock or stick if they got into the tracks? Interesting design. I believe I spoke to them a few years ago and they said the tracks were for temp use.

ARP
02-02-2010, 07:15 PM
Yellow- I think I missed the discussion before and I'm probably opening a whole other can of worms bringing it up, but why don't you have a CDL already as the gross weight of your trailer is well over 10k lbs with your machine and mulcher on it? I understand rules are enforced differently in each state, but it was my understanding that any trailer that weighs over 10k lbs (trailer's weight + weight of cargo on trailer) and is towed commercially, requires a CDL to pull it? Maybe someone can correct me, but I thought DOT rules were federal laws and applied to every state?

If this is the case, I would suggest just looking at a CTL. (I'm going to play devil's advocate for once:laugh:) If you are worried about track wear, I currently have 793 hrs on my T320 and I expect another 200-300 hrs out of my tracks. Also, as you know, I run on a lot of rocks (shot rock, granite boulders, ledge, etc) in the ROWs and my tracks do show it. But, as a fellow owner operator, I would expect that you could see similar hours as well based on the care you show for your machines. My tracks have allowed me to mow and work in rough and wet areas, as well as to just keep working in general when the weather gets wet for a few days.

You have a lot more mowing experience than I do, but having run a trackloader for a few hundred hours in similar conditions, I can definitely see where it would be beneficial to you, especially if you are worried about working when it gets wet. It would be great if you could keep your S330 and buy another machine like a T320, but as we all know, that's now how the world spins at times :laugh:

Also, another thought on getting a CDL, you could try to find a local truck driving school and see if you could pay on a per-lesson basis. That's how I got my CDL: I took 5 lessons in an automatic Kenworth pulling a 48' box trailer, and then took the test in the same truck. Grand total: $1800 (sure beats $5k for the whole course).

To sum it up, I'm in agreement with KSSS. Don't let the lack of a CDL dictate the survival and growth of your business over the next 5 yrs (length of payments for a new machine or tracks that may not work the way you need them too anyway). There has to be a way to get your CDL so that you can move past this hurdle. I'd just hate to see you come back on here having bought a machine or track system that didn't do what you need it to do and you still had to get your CDL because a DOT officer got bored one day and grabbed you.

If you have any questions about the T320 or want to see pics, give me a call or PM/Email me. I'll be glad to give you whatever information you need to come over to the "dark" CTL side :drinkup:

Andrew

YellowDogSVC
02-02-2010, 07:57 PM
Yellow- 7 There has to be a way to get your CDL so that you can move past this hurdle. I'd just hate to see you come back on here having bought a machine or track system that didn't do what you need it to do and you still had to get your CDL because a DOT officer got bored one day and grabbed you.

If you have any questions about the T320 or want to see pics, give me a call or PM/Email me. I'll be glad to give you whatever information you need to come over to the "dark" CTL side :drinkup:

Andrew

All good info. I would like to see track pics after your 700 hrs. I'd love to have the 330 and 320 but I went with a mini ex to compliment. I'm at about 12k lbs on my trailer and a little weight transferred to the truck.

State of Texas has a flowchart online. See below. And yes, I am going to get mine. I have to figure a way to take the test, though. Don't have any friends with f450's or heavier trailers that I am used to. I asked for a waiver to see if they would let me use my f350 and current setup since my f350 is virtually identical on the road to an f450.
Right now, I'm borderline but just haven't needed a CDL. If I did get a CDL, i'd find a 14k trailer. I like towing with my f350's but should have held out for an f450 but didn't think ahead. I'm better at giving advice to others than doing it right for myself. I have a system and it works. Yes, i spend time adding up weight and subtracting this and that but I would do it anyway as that's my personality. I am still under the limit and since every dollar counts, and there is just one of me, I haven't looked into heavier trailer lately.

Maybe someone from Texas is reading this and can tell me how much more of a PITA it is to get vehicles inspected and how much more of a target are you for violations?

Oh. here's the link: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/cve/cdlmain.htm

ARP
02-02-2010, 09:28 PM
Yellow- I will grab some pics of the tracks on my T320 in a few days for you. Let me know if there is anything else I can get for you.

I should apologize Yellow, as I went back through the federal DOT regs for CDLs and I noticed that there has been a change in wording so that someone can tow a 10k lb+ trailer, as long as the whole combination unit does not weigh more than 26K lbs. This is a significant change in my opinion, as that means a lot more guys are legal now who haul a small skidsteer and a couple of attachments with a 350/3500 size vehicle. I remember the ruling stating specifically that a CDL was needed, no matter how much the combination weighed, as soon as the pulled load went over 10k lbs. I agonized for hours over that when I started the company. Perhaps this is a signal that the DOT is going to shift to a less restrictive interpretations or even increase the weight limit even more to let more guys become legal who tow compact equipment behind 550 size vehicles as well. I can only hope, but I doubt it will happen:laugh:

I am curious Yellow: how much does your F350, trailer, and machine weigh? Man, I'd sure like the flexibility of being able to at least tow the machine behind a truck without needing another CDL driver.

YellowDogSVC
02-02-2010, 09:44 PM
Yellow- I will grab some pics of the tracks on my T320 in a few days for you. Let me know if there is anything else I can get for you.

I should apologize Yellow, as I went back through the federal DOT regs for CDLs and I noticed that there has been a change in wording so that someone can tow a 10k lb+ trailer, as long as the whole combination unit does not weigh more than 26K lbs. Thi
I am curious Yellow: how much does your F350, trailer, and machine weigh? Man, I'd sure like the flexibility of being able to at least tow the machine behind a truck without needing another CDL driver.
.
I went to a certified scale and weighed the truck and trailer with chains, full of fluids, no attachments and I weighed 12,560 +/-. the s330 weighed, with bucket, and full fluids 8900# (it now weighs 80 lbs more) with the bigger tires. I know the weights of my attachments. At my heaviest, I am at 25,600 but that is rare and with my heaviest attachments and a bucket with my tilttatch. I am usually around 24,500 when mulching and totally full on transfer tank and machine. I don't always haul full and don't always have my truck full which saves some weight. I also removed some weight from my truck so that helps another 100#here and there. I also estimate high on my attachments (shipping weight vs. actual weight) so I have a buffer. Add in the 5% DOT gives you and I am pretty safe.

Any info on your tracks and issues you have come up against would be helpful in my decison. My big hangups now are giving up my 2 speed and whether or not the tracks will hold up but like you said, you are going to hit 1000 running over granite rocks occasionally.

Blue Goose
02-02-2010, 10:06 PM
FWIW, the company I work for is a heavy highway contractor in St. Louis, MO. We have T250's and T300's and have gotten anywhere from 1400 on the low side to 19xx hrs. on the OEM Bridgestone tracks. This was done with multiple operators with no skin in the game, so to speak. It's the aftermarket tracks that we're getting very few hours out of. I've seen some get as few as a couple of hundred hours out of a set.(soliddeals)The machine that is on our job right now doesn't have 3000 hours on it and is on it's second set of replacement tracks....Same machines, same operators, same scope of work, track brand makes a big difference.

ARP
02-03-2010, 12:31 AM
Other than getting some pictures of the tracks for you in a few days Yellow, there is not much I can report bad about the tracks. Yes, I have a bunch of deep cuts and a few small chunks (2" and smaller) missing from some of the lugs, but other than that, they have held up great. And I wish I could say it was occasional running over of rocks, but unfortunately, I spend anywhere from 60-90% of my time on rocky terrain. The utilities just did not get the memo that they need to put ROWs through farm field up here :laugh::rolleyes:

With that said though, I don't have any exposed steel cables or any signs of internal failure in the tracks. The only change I would make, would be to go with the Mclaren/Bridgestone OEM aggressive lug track for increased traction in mud and snow (thankfully you don't have to worry about the latter :rolleyes:).

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 09:46 AM
Other than getting some pictures of the tracks for you in a few days Yellow, there is not much I can report bad about the tracks. Yes, I have a bunch of deep cuts and a few small chunks (2" and smaller) missing from some of the lugs, but other than that, they have held up great. And I wish I could say it was occasional running over of rocks, but unfortunately, I spend anywhere from 60-90% of my time on rocky terrain. The utilities just did not get the memo that they need to put ROWs through farm field up here :laugh::rolleyes:

With that said though, I don't have any exposed steel cables or any signs of internal failure in the tracks. The only change I would make, would be to go with the Mclaren/Bridgestone OEM aggressive lug track for increased traction in mud and snow (thankfully you don't have to worry about the latter :rolleyes:).

right now I'm thinking about going to work for swamp loggers or SS aqua logging! I have only seen texas this wet once before in '97. Even the great flood of 2002 (30+ inches) dried out quickly enough to work the next week.

My concern about the tracks was fueled by reading that nicks and cuts would expose cables and lead to premature failure. I think you have made it further than most so the operator has to have something to do with it. Like I mentioned before, I am at 1000 hours on my tires and they still have plenty of tread.

I think I am overthinking but as with any large purchase, it's hard to go back after you make the decision.

How do you feel about the 6.6 mph? If you have never experienced 2 speed I guess it wouldn't be a big deal but after 2 speed...it would be hard to go back to crawl. Also, what's it like carrying logs over a few hundred yards. Does it beat you up at 6.6 mph or whatever full speed is?
I'm used to trucking it either at full single or full top speed. I was told I didn't need ride control with a CTL? Anyone else have it?:confused:

Junior M
02-03-2010, 09:48 AM
right now I'm thinking about going to work for swamp loggers or SS aqua logging! I have only seen texas this wet once before in '97. Even the great flood of 2002 (30+ inches) dried out quickly enough to work the next week.

My concern about the tracks was fueled by reading that nicks and cuts would expose cables and lead to premature failure. I think you have made it further than most so the operator has to have something to do with it. Like I mentioned before, I am at 1000 hours on my tires and they still have plenty of tread.

I think I am overthinking but as with any large purchase, it's hard to go back after you make the decision.

How do you feel about the 6.6 mph? If you have never experienced 2 speed I guess it wouldn't be a big deal but after 2 speed...it would be hard to go back to crawl. Also, what's it like carrying logs over a few hundred yards. Does it beat you up at 6.6 mph or whatever full speed is?
I'm used to trucking it either at full single or full top speed. I was told I didn't need ride control with a CTL? Anyone else have it?:confused:
The T300 rides real smooth with a load on the front. Take that load off(just a grapple or attachment) and it is pretty rough at full speed..

Duffster
02-03-2010, 10:07 AM
.
I went to a certified scale and weighed the truck and trailer with chains, full of fluids, no attachments and I weighed 12,560 +/-. the s330 weighed, with bucket, and full fluids 8900# (it now weighs 80 lbs more) with the bigger tires. I know the weights of my attachments. At my heaviest, I am at 25,600 but that is rare and with my heaviest attachments and a bucket with my tilttatch. I am usually around 24,500 when mulching and totally full on transfer tank and machine. I don't always haul full and don't always have my truck full which saves some weight. I also removed some weight from my truck so that helps another 100#here and there. I also estimate high on my attachments (shipping weight vs. actual weight) so I have a buffer. Add in the 5% DOT gives you and I am pretty safe.

Any info on your tracks and issues you have come up against would be helpful in my decison. My big hangups now are giving up my 2 speed and whether or not the tracks will hold up but like you said, you are going to hit 1000 running over granite rocks occasionally.

What is the GVWR of your truck and trailer?

Blue Goose
02-03-2010, 10:16 AM
right now I'm thinking about going to work for swamp loggers or SS aqua logging! I have only seen texas this wet once before in '97. Even the great flood of 2002 (30+ inches) dried out quickly enough to work the next week.

Didn't you folks have flooding in '99? I have a classic wooden runabout (427 Ford powered) and by invitation participated with it in the '99 Christmas parade on the River Walk. We had 5 or 6 boats that carried "hero's" from that flood. On our boat we had a firefighter and his family that had pulled a child from a storm drain.

Sorry for getting off topic....

Blue Goose
02-03-2010, 10:29 AM
Oops, now that I think of it, it might have been '98...

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 10:37 AM
Didn't you folks have flooding in '99? I have a classic wooden runabout (427 Ford powered) and by invitation participated with it in the '99 Christmas parade on the River Walk. We had 5 or 6 boats that carried "hero's" from that flood. On our boat we had a firefighter and his family that had pulled a child from a storm drain.

Sorry for getting off topic....

We had 23 inches of rain in late June '97, 12"+ inches in October '98 (they had more on the east side of san antonio) and then in 2002 we had the mother of all floods. The 1000 yr flood because '97 was the 500 yr. flood.

In 2007, after a rare, wet summer, we had a 13" rain from a tropical storm that came down in 6 hours. It created a wall of water over 20' high that swamped the bridges and roads. I was out on my 4 wheeler witnessing extreme flooding first hand. It was incredible. My neighbor's 14' aluminum boat was in a pond and it was carried a mile down what is usually a trickle of a creek and virtually wrapped around a tree.

Blue Goose
02-03-2010, 10:47 AM
I'm going to ask my wife what year we were there. I know I towed the boat there with my '97 truck....Normally I remember that sort of stuff. My Dad used to call such lapses in memory partzheimers...:dizzy:

Blue Goose
02-03-2010, 10:50 AM
Those stats are incredible.

Do you or have you ever done work for a company in San Antonio called Greenhouses Etc.?

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 11:09 AM
Those stats are incredible.

Do you or have you ever done work for a company in San Antonio called Greenhouses Etc.?

No. Haven't heard of them.

As far as the rains. We are on the in an area where lows that develop over Mexico move across s. texas and pump moisture in from the warm gulf of mexico.. recipe for tons of rain. Though people think this area is dry, our average rainfall is closer to 40 inches in this part of the hill country. Some years, we get 70 and others we get 20 (like the recent drought) but the creeks are usually crystal clear up here except during runoff times.

These hills can be quite lush and thus traction can suck when the clay gets wet.

Blue Goose
02-03-2010, 11:34 AM
Greenhouses Etc. is a constructor of greenhouses from residential up to having done them for Lowes in your area. It's owned by two brothers, great guys.

In my earlier post about my company's experience with track life, I should add that when they (originals) were replaced they were ragged and about to fail. The replacement tracks had a much more aggressive tread and worked great while they lasted. They split. The new brand (haven't seen the name) of replacements aren't fairing much better.

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-03-2010, 11:56 AM
not to rain on your parade yellowdog, but i think duffster and I are thinking along the same lines....

cdl requirements are based upon gross combined vehicle weight ratings not actual weights.

I am going to go get my class A license this week b/c of the new trailer i just purchased.

for example:
my truck- F350 with 11,500lb gvwr
my trailer-25' deckover with 19,000lb gtwr
gcvwr= 30,500 lbs which is greater than the 26,000lb class A requirement AND my trailer is over 10,000lb gtwr so therefore i need a class A.
BUT my truck still has a max combined vehicle rating of 23,000lbs which i need to stay under when im fully loaded, not to mention that i need to stay within my rear axle ratings even if im under my combined limit of 23K.

so say:
truck= 9,000lbs
trailer= 3,000lbs
machine=10,100lbs
total= 22,100lbs is under my trucks max combined limit, and i need to watch the tongue weight to stay under my rear axles limit.


back on the topic of ctl's, my asv has the 2speed option with an 11mph top speed and i love it, its really smooth too at that speed empty or loaded. do the bobcat ctls not have 2speed options?

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 12:15 PM
not to rain on your parade yellowdog, but i think duffster and I are thinking along the same lines....

cdl requirements are based upon gross combined vehicle weight ratings not actual weights.

I am going to go get my class A license this week b/c of the new trailer i just purchased.

for example:
my truck- F350 with 11,500lb gvwr
my trailer-25' deckover with 19,000lb gtwr
gcvwr= 30,500 lbs which is greater than the 26,000lb class A requirement AND my trailer is over 10,000lb gtwr so therefore i need a class A.
BUT my truck still has a max combined vehicle rating of 23,000lbs which i need to stay under when im fully loaded, not to mention that i need to stay within my rear axle ratings even if im under my combined limit of 23K.

so say:
truck= 9,000lbs
trailer= 3,000lbs
machine=10,100lbs
total= 22,100lbs is under my trucks max combined limit, and i need to watch the tongue weight to stay under my rear axles limit.


back on the topic of ctl's, my asv has the 2speed option with an 11mph top speed and i love it, its really smooth too at that speed empty or loaded. do the bobcat ctls not have 2speed options?

My GCWR for truck and trailer is only 25k one one trailer and 25,050 on another truck and trailer. My truck GCWR is 13k and the trailer 12k

from what I have read, bobcat does not have 2 speed in CTL. An MTL or ASV will not work in this area. Too many rocks and too many sharp cedar stumps. If VTS wasn't so wide, it would be a good temporary solution but I don't want 83" machine. That would make my brushcat about worthless, my grapple too narrow, need wider buckets, and so forth. the max I figure I can live with is 78-80".

It's probably time to sh*t or get off the pot. I know but I really like my s330 and now is not a great time to sell anything.

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-03-2010, 01:32 PM
i see, i thought the trailer was a 14K gvwr, so your good as is.

i totally understand your wanting to keep the machine narrow, thats why i like that my asv is only 69" wide, but as you stated your area isnt conducive to an mtl's tracks.

from what ive seen the mclaren ott diamond and magnum protracks look really good.

for an efficient operation like yours, i would prolly go with ott tracks as well. that way you dont need to worry about two machines and the costs associated. with a set of ott's your s330 will be like a swiss army knife.

any particular reason you are only looking at bobcats?

stuvecorp
02-03-2010, 02:03 PM
I don't want to get sidetracked to much but am positive a 12,000 gvw trailer is CDL land?

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-03-2010, 02:06 PM
hes not over the 26K primary truck+trailer requirement, if he was then yes he would need one b/c the trailer is over 10K

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 02:36 PM
i

for an efficient operation like yours, i would prolly go with ott tracks as well. that way you dont need to worry about two machines and the costs associated. with a set of ott's your s330 will be like a swiss army knife.

any particular reason you are only looking at bobcats?

I need rubber tires or rubber tracks to be able to load and unload on many job sites. I also work on a lot of executive ranches where the owners do not want metal track disturbance or they have miles of paved roads.

I had a CAT...
Everything else I own other than a couple of attachments and a chipper are Bobcat. Just seems easier. Nobody else has impressed me around here. Deere wouldn't give me the time of day when I wanted to demo and CASE has changed hands and ignored requests for info. CAT doesn't have the power I want in a power to weight ratio.

I'm stuck with Bobcat right now. They know me, treat me well, and I like the K series machine for reliability.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 02:39 PM
I don't want to get sidetracked to much but am positive a 12,000 gvw trailer is CDL land?

scroll up through some of the posts and look at the Texas CDL flowchart link.

I talked directly with TXDPS license and weight. They told me where to look and even told me in no uncertain terms that under 26k is non CDL. Over 26k is CDL. I also contacted the license bureau and got the same answer and then TX came out with that flow chart because there was confusion (I guess) in reading the rules.

I also checked with Bobcat who monitors and has their CDL drivers and non-CDL drivers. they also stated that the GCWR totalled up and under 26k for combination is non-cdl. The trailer weight doesn't matter as long as your combination (truck and trailer) are under the threshold of 26,000

stuvecorp
02-03-2010, 02:40 PM
hes not over the 26K primary truck+trailer requirement, if he was then yes he would need one b/c the trailer is over 10K

Doesn't matter what the combo number is once you are over the 10,000 trailer, that is what the trooper told me in my 'safety audit'.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 02:42 PM
hes not over the 26K primary truck+trailer requirement, if he was then yes he would need one b/c the trailer is over 10K

That rule that everyone refers to is if you have Class B (dump truck or whatever) and want to tow a trailer. They will let you tow a trailer up to 10k with a class B, however, if you want to tow a 10,0001 pound and up trailer, you would then need a Class A license.

My trucker who is a Class B holder tows his bobcat on a trailer but is under 10k. We were discussing this the other day. He may get his his class A and then he can tow a much heavier tag along but even if he only wants to tow a 12k trailer, he would still need a Class A instead of his class B even if his actual weight is less than what he would be hauling if he was full of road base.

stuvecorp
02-03-2010, 02:44 PM
I agree it is a mess with the CDL stuff, the state says one thing and the feds say another.

It bothers me Yellow that Case hasn't pursued you, sure seems to me there is a huge problem with Case sales tactics.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 02:44 PM
Doesn't matter what the combo number is once you are over the 10,000 trailer, that is what the trooper told me in my 'safety audit'.

It's possible they look at it different in Wisconsin but wasn't your issue because you went "interstate"?

I don't have much use to travel out of state as it is 600 miles one way, 400 the other, 500 the other, and the ocean and Mexico stop me going south.

I barely leave my own county but if I travel say 2.5 hours, I'm still in central Texas!

stuvecorp
02-03-2010, 02:48 PM
It's possible they look at it different in Wisconsin but wasn't your issue because you went "interstate"?

I don't have much use to travel out of state as it is 600 miles one way, 400 the other, 500 the other, and the ocean and Mexico stop me going south.

I barely leave my own county but if I travel say 2.5 hours, I'm still in central Texas!

That's how they found me.:hammerhead: The worst thing is I hardly ever go more that an hour away for anything.

The Iowa guy said all the same things as the Wisconsin/DOT trooper, so Iowa and Wisconsin are on the same page.:confused:

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-03-2010, 03:02 PM
i thought the magnums were a rubber over steel? i know the diamonds are full metal bars, but they have the standard rubber otts. just throwing ideas out there, but im pretty impressed with their products. in the end its your money though lol and i dont even know how much they run.

Duffster
02-03-2010, 03:03 PM
Doesn't matter what the combo number is once you are over the 10,000 trailer, that is what the trooper told me in my 'safety audit'.

The only state (that I am aware of) that requires a CDL solely because the trailer is over 10k is CA.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 03:12 PM
i thought the magnums were a rubber over steel? i know the diamonds are full metal bars, but they have the standard rubber otts. just throwing ideas out there, but im pretty impressed with their products. in the end its your money though lol and i dont even know how much they run.

protrac has magnums with rubber pads, regular magnums and diamonds.
the protrac rubbers are heavy at 1210 lbs. Adds 600 pounds per side. That's heavy and they told me the flotation was nill but that traction would be better. I don't need aggressive as much as flotation. I'm trying to leave as small of a footprint. Things may change but right now a good portion of my work is related to these executive ranches where soil disturbance is an issue. It's hard to explain but these multi million dollar properties have different rules than the rest of us use. I hardly ever work on a construction site or a job where time matters more than mess. I am usually told, if you will make a mess, just wait until it dries..whenever that may be. If it was just critical to get traction on a job...I'd go with cross bar tracks or something like that but low ground disturbance is what sets my service apart from my competitors and why I get called back on some of these properties. When I took my tracks off a few years ago, I lost some of the ability to work in certain locations but I was able to gain more work that I'm good at so far that work hasn't dried up as fast as other work in this economy.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 03:13 PM
That's how they found me.:hammerhead: The worst thing is I hardly ever go more that an hour away for anything.

The Iowa guy said all the same things as the Wisconsin/DOT trooper, so Iowa and Wisconsin are on the same page.:confused:

did you look at the flowchart? What do you think? any room for interpretation errors on my part?

stuvecorp
02-03-2010, 03:26 PM
did you look at the flowchart? What do you think? any room for interpretation errors on my part?

I haven't yet but will check that out.

If Case would have been better, I think a 440(high flow) and VTS would be what you are wanting. I know perfect world and all it's hard to flip machines and not take a beating.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 03:39 PM
I haven't yet but will check that out.

If Case would have been better, I think a 440(high flow) and VTS would be what you are wanting. I know perfect world and all it's hard to flip machines and not take a beating.

I need the hp to run a mulcher in these hills. Some of the trees I lift are in the 3000 lb + range, too. we do a lot of old oak wilt takedowns. The trunks are gigantic for a skid. I need as much ROC on that, too. I'm happy in the 2800-3000 lb lift class. Could probably get by with a 2500 lb lift class if I had tracks to help stablize. I try and carry those loads low but need to lift for stacking. The guys that burn them want tight, tall, neat piles. I think a versalift would be the best choice for that but that's some serious $$.

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-03-2010, 05:53 PM
seems you have quite the quandary here. for the limitations in disturbance you have to work with an mtl would be the best option, but you have bad conditions that would beat an mtl's tracks.

i know how you feel about the money issue, but b/c of the conditions and limitations of customers, a two machine setup might be the best bet for the long run, keep your s330 for the rocky work then a ctl for the minimum disturbance work. good luck!

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2010, 09:28 PM
seems you have quite the quandary here. for the limitations in disturbance you have to work with an mtl would be the best option, but you have bad conditions that would beat an mtl's tracks.

i know how you feel about the money issue, but b/c of the conditions and limitations of customers, a two machine setup might be the best bet for the long run, keep your s330 for the rocky work then a ctl for the minimum disturbance work. good luck!

there is only one of me. I bought my mini ex with grand plans. It is sitting..
I'd like to have two machines like I used to. Had one with tracks, one with tires, identical S300 high flow machines. Got into the CAT 272c, which cost almost double and sold off the s300's then lost a lot of dry, summer work days with my CAT woes and one machine.

My system can still work with some hand work and using the mini ex to stack brush but we had another 3" of rain since Monday and it is awfully wet. I just lost a decent out of town job until the weather changes.
Looking for just about anything at this point until I can actuall clear again.
If I was logging or working where they don't care about the ground conditions, i could go back at a later date and clean up but that doesn't seem to fly on these ranchette properties and I don't blame them. We are having some major 120' power poles strung across our property and the dozers, trucks, and other machines have left a muddy mess. yeah, they promise to restore the land but it's a mess until June and I have to look at it.

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-04-2010, 12:22 AM
do the high limitations enable you to charge a higher fee due to increased diligence on your part?

the reason im asking is that if you can capture that niche market by marketing yourself as a company that can work in real sensitive areas with minimal disturbance, and being a solo op that cares for your clients etc... you might be on to a gold mine with these rich dude ranches. that might allow you to invest in a focused machine that excels in those areas.

stuvecorp
02-04-2010, 01:06 AM
Yellow, I did the Texas link and yeah you're good. Apparently the man is after me.:) I looked in the Wisconsin CDL book as I'm slowly working my way through it and there is some questionable area with the more than 10,000 trailer/combination vehicle.

The 440S3 is 83 horse with 37.8 gpm high flow and will lift around 4,000 with the VTS and be 77" wide. Something to think of...:usflag:

hvy 1ton
02-04-2010, 06:22 AM
So, not being able to sleep again, i've been pondering this problem for a bit. I was thinking about how you said the toolcat did a really well in the mud/soft ground. Picking up some wider/bigger R4 tires for the toolcat would probably make it the best tool for the treework you are talking about. Working more jobs that favor the toolcat would be a good idea, then mulch and clear when you can. In a few months it should be dry again. If it's not, and you can't get to your clearing contracts, start working out a trade for a ctl. Maybe the new large frame bobcats will be out when the time rolls around.

The other direction of thought i had, and I know you don't wanna buy anything else, was one of the larger kubota or Tak wheel loaders. The Tak TW65 has 3500ROC and top speed of 12mph. Combine that with a track loader to do the mulching, shearing and other heavy work, and you have all your main work requirements. I was looking for a small loader for my friend a few months back and saw a couple of taks going for less than 30k and a kubota with a backhoe for 27K. The only real downside to this route would be cost, 90K for a used t320 and wheel loader. The s330 would only cover half; that's a lot of money to reinvest in a business right now. Especially when what you have works for the most part, and works well when it does.

Duffster
02-04-2010, 09:52 AM
Yellow, I did the Texas link and yeah you're good. Apparently the man is after me.:) I looked in the Wisconsin CDL book as I'm slowly working my way through it and there is some questionable area with the more than 10,000 trailer/combination vehicle.

The 440S3 is 83 horse with 37.8 gpm high flow and will lift around 4,000 with the VTS and be 77" wide. Something to think of...:usflag:

This chart is right out of the WI manual.

Check out line 15.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=156548&d=1248662276

YellowDogSVC
02-04-2010, 11:19 AM
do the high limitations enable you to charge a higher fee due to increased diligence on your part?

the reason im asking is that if you can capture that niche market by marketing yourself as a company that can work in real sensitive areas with minimal disturbance, and being a solo op that cares for your clients etc... you might be on to a gold mine with these rich dude ranches. that might allow you to invest in a focused machine that excels in those areas.

Until the economy collapsed, I seemed to be doing pretty good and received a lot of referrals. Problem is, and I found this out when brush mowers first started showing up 10 years ago, is that people are used to one way of clearing. They look around and see 10 acres cleared and brush piles stacked up with ruts, rocks, and dirt everywhere. It's like turning a super tanker getting folks to understand there is a difference.

As far as capturing a niche market. That would be nice to capture it but I think it's more likely that I will get to work for friends of clients and grow through word of mouth and through my website photos getting me onto their land. Not all of my work is clearing. A good portion is clean up. Whether it's cleaning up after another company, storms, or the devastation and subsequent removal of oak wilt trees. The latter is where I have to be gentle since people that remove oaks already have an improved property.

As far as charging more. I don't think I can charge that much more. I get a few bucks an hour more than some and less than others from the investigating I did for most work but I feel like a CTL or a system where I can do a little more than the wheeled guys or work with less disturbance than the steel OTT guys will help me get more jobs and referrals.
While so many people are going out of business, the market (when things recover around here) will be wide open for someone with the tools, knowhow, and finesse to do a good job.

But who the heck knows anymore! :) If it keeps raining, I think I will start on building an ark. :dizzy:

YellowDogSVC
02-04-2010, 11:21 AM
Yellow, I did the Texas link and yeah you're good. Apparently the man is after me.:) I looked in the Wisconsin CDL book as I'm slowly working my way through it and there is some questionable area with the more than 10,000 trailer/combination vehicle.

The 440S3 is 83 horse with 37.8 gpm high flow and will lift around 4,000 with the VTS and be 77" wide. Something to think of...:usflag:

I'd like to have a brute force CASE but the dealership always looks like a ghost town. I see almost no case machines around here. It scares me to think they may go under.

YellowDogSVC
02-04-2010, 11:25 AM
This chart is right out of the WI manual.

Check out line 15.

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=156548&d=1248662276

WI chart sucks. Line 15 makes no sense but go back through the texas CDL and plug in that your GVWR is over 26k but your trailer is under 10k. I think it says no.

So, I could be hauling a 26k rated truck with the bobcat on the back and small 6k trailer pulling my attachments and not need a cdl? Also, if I have a 20 or 26k chipper truck and pull a 5k chipper, I'm still legal without cdl? Makes no sense.

YellowDogSVC
02-04-2010, 11:33 AM
So, not being able to sleep again, i've been pondering this problem for a bit. I was thinking about how you said the toolcat did a really well in the mud/soft ground. Picking up some wider/bigger R4 tires for the toolcat would probably make it the best tool for the treework you are talking about. Working more jobs that favor the toolcat would be a good idea, then mulch and clear when you can. In a few months it should be dry again. If it's not, and you can't get to your clearing contracts, start working out a trade for a ctl. Maybe the new large frame bobcats will be out when the time rolls around.

The other direction of thought i had, and I know you don't wanna buy anything else, was one of the larger kubota or Tak wheel loaders. The Tak TW65 has 3500ROC and top speed of 12mph. Combine that with a track loader to do the mulching, shearing and other heavy work, and you have all your main work requirements. I was looking for a small loader for my friend a few months back and saw a couple of taks going for less than 30k and a kubota with a backhoe for 27K. The only real downside to this route would be cost, 90K for a used t320 and wheel loader. The s330 would only cover half; that's a lot of money to reinvest in a business right now. Especially when what you have works for the most part, and works well when it does.

and I owe plenty on the s330. I was able to pay off my bc2000 chipper and my haul truck, though. still owe on mini ex and s330.

I wonder if spacers on the toolcat would allow me to run bigger tires? that's an interesting thought. I had to replace the tires when I first got the toolcat (it was used) and the replacements are slightly narrower than stock even though they are bobcat brand tires. I'm wondering now, if a little bigger and wider tire would work. Considering how big the trees were that I handled on Sunday and Monday, the toolcat can do a lot. The only difference is the property I was on had very little grass and I could see obstructions. toolcat isn't very well protected under the machine. if you were to run over a stump or other obstruction, it could be disastrous to the engine, fuel tank, etc. I'm going to look into guarding but I don't see how you could get to it for service with skid plates installed.

Guys thanks for all the ideas. They help and different perspectives like a wheel loader keep the brain thinking. I think a small wheel loader and grapple would be a good machine for stacking brush but don't see myself getting into another type of machine right now. I'm getting old and it's hard enough to keep up with skids, chipper, toolcat, and attachments!

Duffster
02-04-2010, 11:43 AM
WI chart sucks. Line 15 makes no sense but go back through the texas CDL and plug in that your GVWR is over 26k but your trailer is under 10k. I think it says no.

What sucks about it? It makes perfect sense and clearly shows that a CDL is not required solely for a trailer over 10k, which is what Stuvecorp seems to be questioning.

So, I could be hauling a 26k rated truck with the bobcat on the back and small 6k trailer pulling my attachments and not need a cdl? Also, if I have a 20 or 26k chipper truck and pull a 5k chipper, I'm still legal without cdl? Makes no sense.

Yes that is correct and that is what your CDL calculator says also. It also agrees with what the FED's say.

Truck 26k or under = No CDL

Trailer 10k or under = No CDL

26k truck + 10k trailer = No CDL

YellowDogSVC
02-04-2010, 12:33 PM
What sucks about it? It makes perfect sense and clearly shows that a CDL is not required solely for a trailer over 10k, which is what Stuvecorp seems to be questioning.



Yes that is correct and that is what your CDL calculator says also. It also agrees with what the FED's say.

Truck 26k or under = No CDL

Trailer 10k or under = No CDL

26k truck + 10k trailer = No CDL

I guess I just hate charts.

Laws make no sense. I could have an f550 pulling a total of only 23k lbs truck and trailer and need cdl but I could have a dumptruck loaded to 26k pulling a 10k trailer and I don't need a cdl?
and I still read the law that the GCWR of the combination is what will put you in CDL territory.. uggh. I see why two troopers would have different opinons.

Duffster
02-04-2010, 04:35 PM
I still read the law that the GCWR of the combination is what will put you in CDL territory..

It does, but only if the trailer is over 10k.;)

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-04-2010, 06:22 PM
that is 10K gvwr, not actual weight

Duffster
02-04-2010, 06:57 PM
that is 10K gvwr, not actual weight

Many states go by which ever is higher; GWR, actual or registered wieght.

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-04-2010, 11:40 PM
i was being a lil sarcastic lol, this topic has been beaten to death on her and other threads along with a few threads on plowsite about some guy asking about hauling a case 580 with a pickup.

sorry for hijacking yellow!

YellowDogSVC
02-04-2010, 11:51 PM
i was being a lil sarcastic lol, this topic has been beaten to death on her and other threads along with a few threads on plowsite about some guy asking about hauling a case 580 with a pickup.

sorry for hijacking yellow!

it's okay. Plenty of guys are looking for info on both subjects

jefftb
02-05-2010, 11:05 AM
it's okay. Plenty of guys are looking for info on both subjects

I've seen people that need to find the info....last week we witnessed a guy pulling a CASE 130 excavator behind a Dodge 3500 on a GN trailer......:hammerhead:

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-05-2010, 11:32 AM
^haha, it will pull it, but will it stop it??