To bag or mulch... a different perspective

[hoagie]

I read alot of people preaching "mulching is better for the lawn, bagging is a waste of time" blah, blah, BLAH!

I beg to differ... not only because it looks a hell of alot better, and I don't care if you quintuple cut w/ 4 blades on each spindle... unless you are mowing bone dry grass w/ an inch of growth, you CAN tell which one was bagged. Thats not the point though! I think it's almost pure lazyness.


"It takes too long to bag". You can charge more! Yippie!!


"Mulching is better for the lawn"

Does the grass know the difference between ammonium sulfate, sulfur coated urea, or it's own clippings? Obviously not, or we wouldn't have companies like TG/CL. You don't see them spraying fresh clippings saying "it's better for the lawns you see".

Bottom line: Mulching is better for the home-owners wallet and easier for their lawn service!!

What is the whole idea behind "mulching better for the lawn"?
Because you don't have to use as much "exogenous" nitrogen, so to speak? ****! If you're the one doing the fert... why not bag? It puts more $$ in your own damn pockets. Plus, half these people still juice up their lawns even if you leave clippings to decomp! Leaving the lawn to look like **** and build up a massive layer of thatch in no time because no one can possibly schedule their cuts to coincide w/ the infamous 1/3rd rule. OOPS, I forgot, you mulch... so that makes lignan decompose much faster... right.


Why bag? Hmm... there's broadleaf and grassy sead heads all over the place.... lemme just return them to the turf so they can germ real quick and double by next cut!! Although, I may have just put my foot in my mouth... that would give all you full service fert guys more work, so... forget that. Spread the skank-weed.

Sure, there's the whole issue of dumping and all that... but then again, composting has become a multi-billion $ industry, although all the herbicides don't help much, but thats another discussion- home owners blindly spraying chemical all over the country, yet I go to jail and get fined up the A** for putting down a little dimension.?

Better yet... if clippings are so good for the lawn, why not charge the client for a bagged cut... then retain the clippings and spread them on your own lawn. Hmm, maybe start a natural fert company?

[KirbysLawn]

Ummm, ok. Bag away.

So I'm to understand if I don't bag my lawns they look like "****"? I sure hope my customers don't find out.

Let me ask this, can you tell if this grass was bagged or mulched?

PS: If you keep the weeds out of your lawn there are no worries about spreading any weed seeds.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Have fun bagging buddy!! LMAO

No way will I ever bag lawns. NEVER!!

Thatch not on tall fescue, unless TGCL does it.

I can't tell if a lawn has been bagged or dischrged, so how can you?

I am with Ray here.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

Hey Ray, that lawn in the pic has to be bagged, cause I can't see any clipping.








Yeah right.:rolleyes: Like you even have a bagger.

[hoagie]

I knew this thread would get some attention.

Kirby, never did I say your customers lawns will look like **** if you don't bag... nor did I say that bagging was fun.

First of all, how can I tell the difference? I come from 6yrs of side discharging in NY to the last 3 of bagging everything here. AND, I do have a 52 sd w/ a mulching kit, along side a 48 ghs deck for my walker, and do a few stripes alongside each other and you can certainly tell quite a difference. Stripes are very crisp and more reflective, not as hazy(best way to describe it)

BUT LIKE I SAID, if you're cutting bone dry grass, w/ not a whole hell of alot of growth, no difference. Around here 90% of the high end are irrigated + lawn juice... which equals whole lotta growth.

LGF, if you have never bagged, and never will, how do you know that you cannot tell the difference? From the street... it may be tough for the untrained eye. And from a pic like that? Please!

You're missing my point fellas... on this site, everybody rags on people about bagging, and the only argument is that it's healthier for the turf. I'm not posting this to attack you mulchers... mulch away, have fun buddy.


In my local area (wealthy burbs of Boston) if you don't bag, you cut the ca ca lawns. I pull in serious $$ for bagging, but mention it here and get flamed.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

I have bagged, to much time and labor involved.

You can keep it.

I cut not bone dry lawns and cannot see anything different.

Bagging is slower less productive than dischrging.

So this looks hazy?

[David Haggerty]

I can't do either one except for a little bit of bagging.
Where's side discharge, rear discharge, discharge with double blades in these discussions?
Are they all grouped in with mulching?
Doesn't "mulching" mean no discharge? The clippings are kept inside until they're dust?
Somebody help me out here.

Dave

[KirbysLawn]

Originally posted by hoagie
I knew this thread would get some attention.

Kirby, never did I say your customers lawns will look like **** if you don't bag... nor did I say that bagging was fun.


Not to argue but the general statement was "only because it looks a hell of alot better" (I assume better than mulching), and "Leaving the lawn to look like **** and build up a massive layer of thatch in no time". I read it as ****, if the **** didn't mean **** the I'm sorry. The lawn in the photo has always been mulched and has never been dethatched, like to see a photos of the thatch layer?

If you are making serious $$$ for bagging who gives a **** or is that **** what I or anyone else thinks. I don't bash the people who bag, I just don't do it, and I have found no good reason to do it except for look as you say and weed seed removal (if that's your problem).

I'll pass. What works here may not work there.

[MOW ED]

I can't stay out. First off ;

"I think it's almost pure lazyness"

was in the second paragraph of your initial post.
So when you write;"I pull in serious $$ for bagging, but mention it here and get flamed". You can begin to see why people may be a little irritated.

I have owned a Walker for 5 years now and I cut some estate lawns as well as small 5K lawns. I currently own a 42GHS deck and a 52 SD with doubles. I am also a licensed applicator in my state. A couple of years ago when I really became interested in lawns I used to bag and remove aprox 200 bushels per week. ( I was a 1 man operation WITHOUT a dump truck) I have more customers now and I still have the Walker and I now bag and remove about 5 bushels. Granted I do have 2 customers who have on site compost piles so in total I bag aprox 15 to 20 bushels.
All other customers agree that it is OK to let em fly and I have yet to have one complaint. The lawns are healthier and the total fertilizer use is down but the bottom line is up.

This is a business and it involves pleasing the customer but I am the professional in the business, not the customer. You have to sell what you are doing and know what you are selling.

I have a customer that has a 15K sq ft lawn that wanted it bagged. For 2 years I would dread mowing there because TG/CL would bomb it in the spring and I would be there to pick up the mess.
I had a Walker with a single tail wheel at the time and it made some turn ruts in some shaded poor quality areas of the grass and the homeowner mentioned this. My solution was to ask if it was OK to use my Toro WB and side discharge. They gave me the go ahead and I have never picked up another clipping on that lawn. I now have the Walker (dual tail wheels) set up to side discharge w/52 and I am in and out of there in 35 minutes. BTW the rate stayed the same and then increased the following year. The lawn looks great.

The main push for me to drastically reduce bagging was when our city limited the hours of the FREE lawn waste dump site. It used to be open all day every day. That translated into a free dump site for whatever anyone had in the truck. I explained that if I had to bag and remove, I have to charge more. Not one complaint and still no complaints.

Weed seed removal is not an issue in a healthy lawn. Weed seeds move by means other than being returned in the form of clippings. Most don't even germinate and others fly in from other sources. There are 1000's of weed seeds per 1 sq ft of soil. 99.9% of them never emerge thru a lawn.

You discount the fact that composting and dumping are another issue as well as herbicide use by homeowners. These are big issues. Some areas charge to dump, as a business owner, you have to consider the total cost of removal. Vehicle, fuel, time, and fees all add up.

I am not all against bagging and believe it has its place but it isn't the solution to every lawn. Its my business in my area of the country and this is what we do here.

Just some friendly advice for you; In the future you may consider the facts of a discussion rather than a slap in the face to get the
members to respond without you feeling like you are being attacked. There are over 7000 members here and I know there are lots of knowledgeable people that have many more years of experience than many of us here. I certainly wouldn't call them lazy to try and get their attention. Unless you want some negative attention in return . Good Luck.

[Brickman]

This guy has some suppressed rage he needs to work thru, BEFORE he gets on LS and takes it out on us.
That is what we have customers for, is to stress us out without taking it from another LCO.

But I say hey if this guy wants to do all the extra work of bagging, and then unloading the truck every night, let him have it. I for one have gotten a taste of mulching this year and will kick and fight if I ever have to go back to ALL bagging again. Maybe in a wet spring I might have to, but not this year.

[HOMER]

Ray,

The yard you showed must have been mulched. If it was bagged then that ball wouldn't have been left on it.

Geez......that was an easy one:rolleyes:

I have capabilities to do either or, I have 2 people that demand their lawns to be bagged....one commercial prop and one res. I cut them a couple of times when they weren't home with the Chopper. I guess they didn't know the difference cause they never said anything.;)

I use my bagger as a matter of convenience only. Sometimes it's faster to run over a trashy area with it or an area that has multiple types of grass.......like we have down here......than to try and mulch it all into dust (ya right) all we have right now IS dust.

When leaf season rolls around we run one of the Choppers over the lawn and run the Scag right behind it with the Trac-Vac. Makes it twice as fast as chasing leaves all over the place and with the 44 gallon bucket it usually only requires one dump, two at the most, and that only takes 30 seconds start to finish.

No need to argue over petty indifferences......use what ya got and make the most of it.

[johnhenry]

Sometimes these threads amaze me. Man I started at one of the most premeir golf courses it even had the us open. We never bag.
Like Homer said bagging is great when its is warrented like leaves or a trashy area of lawn. But with all the properties I would have to be working to pay the dump truck bills.this is a case where several experts disagree and he who suffers is the lawn:D

[awm]

hoagie u did get wrong when u said that mulching looks much worse than bagging. at least thats the message i got.
if its working for u ,fine . but the derogatory statements about
mulcning ,is sayin you do a nicer job than a lot of us.doubt that will fly.i didnt use your wds but thats the message that i got.
in any case,how bout a rain prayer or dance or something,
so i have something to do. good luck.

[KirbysLawn]

Homer, very good! I can't seem to get that ball to move. lol

Amen on the rain Marks, things are a fryin again.

[Dennis E.]

I have not bagged since 1988. Really. The clippings add a lot of good nutrients back into the turf.
The only time it gets to be a pain is when the Oak trees drop. When that happens I put the "high lift" blades on and send the clippings into a nearby bed.
Some of our waste collection companies here will not even pick up "yard waste" any more.(grass clippings)
Mulch it!!
The customers that I used to have problems with,wanting it bagged, would shoot me now if I did.

[TGCummings]

I mulch everything.

I don't have anything to add at this time, I just wanted e-mail notification for this thread. :cool:

[greenflag]

I have had request for bagging. I would normally charge $30 to mow this yard, so I told them an additional $30 to bag plus $30 to take the time off of the route to go find my bag. :)

They said to mulch it, & they were completely satisfied with the results.

Oh well maybe I can make the big bucks next time.:rolleyes:

[hoagie]

Let me clarify on my original post...

Brickman was partially correct, I was slightly aggrivated when I posted and I do appologize for that... If I came off as a little rude and obnoxious, I'm sorry, I'm not here to be a di*k. But the reason behind the aggitation was this: I had a long day (as we all probably did) and was flipping threw some posts... came along one were a guy mentioned bagging some grass, and another fella replied (in a quite condecending manner) something like "why bag the grass, returning clippings is healthier for the turf". Almost like saying, hey dumb as*, dont you know any better.

Now I have seen numerous posts like this from time to time. And it has never really bothered me untill now. Sorry for the vent, but I thought that this is what the board was here for? And still, I just get trashed by everyone.

I never had any intention of insulting anyone who discharges or mulches... BUT I'm sorry to break to news to you fellas...
Bagging just looks better. PERIOD. Not saying that your lawns look like sh*t either. And post all the pics you want... if you're not right there on site, who COULD tell the difference.

To each his own in their own region... but here in New England where it's rainy and cool, the rye/bluegrass grows like a mutherf**ker, espescially when it's freshly juiced, and 85% of your clients are irrigated. If you cut on a weekly basis and leave clippings... it's going to show. I had a customer tell me how much of a difference she notices just last week.... She has a different lawn service (same guy for 10yrs now), I just do the pruning, bed work, brick work, ect... but her lawn guy came earlier that day, and he leaves clippings (side discharge). I pruned the privet all around the prop... then I blow the clippings out of the beds onto the lawn and use the walker to suck them up instead of raking. ANYWAY... I did that and aslo put a couple extra clean up passes on it to make it look nice... that night I got a call from her ranting about how terrific the front yard looked and asking what the heck I did. Which blows my mind considering that she pays $185 for 67k sq and could have a prop that looks 100% nicer, probably for a couple of bucks more. And it also blows my mind that this guy she uses is such a hacker, and does business in this area for so long. Cuts once a wk w/ dull blades, has thatch up the but, and doesnt even trim around everything!! He's in and out in less 1.5hrs by himself. All for $185.

Point is... if a customer is "anal" as I am, they will see a difference. There's alot that couldn't give a shi*. If those are your customers and you can get away w/ s/d or mulching for a quick buck, more power to ya. I'd rather spend the extra time and effort to make it look completely immaculate... and my customers would rather pay extra for it. If I ever tried to mulch w/ one pass on my best props, I would get a call that night. Thats what I meant by the whole lazyness comment... which was uncalled for, I know. But you said it youself... too much time and labor involved.

Believe me guys, as I said I have both a 52 s/d mulcher (which is one of the best around) and a 48 ghs... so I can do either. And I use the 52 quite a bit when or where ever possible (non-irrigated props in late june/july). And I've worked in a different area (upstate NY) where there are few irrigated props and not one gets bagged... and they still look nice.... but not as nice as the props around here :)

Probably no point in even posting this, or this entire thread for that matter, because it's just going to provoke anger.... but I just had to stick up for us baggers when people post put downs like "dont you know it's better for the lawn", when they have no idea what others are dealing w/. Which all boils down to, do what works in your area, w/ what you have to deal w/.

And just to address the golf course comment (which made me chuckle).... why would golf courses bag when they have a crew on site to cut every day? Point was, if you can cut less than 1/3rd off, mulching looks just as good and no lignan to accumulate thatch. Do you think if premier golf courses hired a LCO to do their prop they would tolerate once per week cuts? And do you think the LCO would side discharge, mulch, or bag the greens? Hmm.

But I still didn't get any replies addressing the original point of this thread...... why do people think it is so much healthier for the grass when you are bombing it 5 time a year? Clippings are 90% h2O, 4-.5-2%(n-p-k). There are no magical nutrients present in clippings that are not in a bag of fert.

[hoagie]

Just to give you a little insight into what type of properties I service here... the lco I worked for the last 2yrs services this property, and won the Honeywell Award for it one year. For any of you eastern MA lco's... this is in Cohasset harbor, if you know the area, you know whose prop this is.

12 acres total (including house), harbor side, house on the market for $45 million. $1,200 per cut... takes a crew of 5 aprox 4-6hrs to cut, bagged, removing around 10 cubic yards of grass per week. 2k of beach raked each week. The home owner is so anal that last year we demoed a walker... currently using bobcat 48 w/b's w/ grass gobblers (ha ha!!).... and he told my employer (at the time) to get rid of the walker, because he didn't like the look of the third wheel. And yes, it would be a tremendous time saver to mulch, but the homeowner will not stand for it.

**Don't get me wrong, this is not the norm! Most are between 1/2 to 2 acres, but the customer mentality is. They all want the look of a country club.

This is only half of the front yard.

[KirbysLawn]

Nice lawn.

[GrazerZ]

Lets see, where do I begin? Why is it that you feel your opinion is sooo valid when you don't even know the answer to such a basic question. Hello, mulching, think of the meaning of the word... also based on what type of grass you may be cutting ex. Ken blue needs as much as 4lds of nitrogen. It has been proven by people with more smarts than you or I that mulching satisfys 1lb of that requirement.
As to weather or not your raking it in, I mean bagging. Who cares. However, I might just point out that if you cut anything of size like we do ex.6-10 acres at one commercial job, you would be hard pressed to keep up when you have to deal with those clippings. Or perhaps your one of those guys with the baggers who cleverly dumps the clippings in little known corner of the property. Anyway, to me slower means lower, per hour that is that your making.
And lastly, if you think that bagging looks that much greater, good for you. However I might also point out that not a few fellow landscapers in my area are very impressed with my Mulched grass. Oh and by the way I forgot to mention that they bag their lawns. It seams that once they saw what grass thats mulched by someone with a clue looks like, they began to doubt the "bagging looks better" propoganda that they were spoon fed by the Walker dealer.

[hoagie]

You obviously hadn't read past the first few sentences of my first post....

[Mark Lawncare]

In some casses bagging will look better. It seems like a good amount of LCO's in the MA-south shore area bag quite a bit. Could they all be wrong?

[Avery]

Simple answer to this discussion is whatever the customer wants. I also hate to bag but for the right money/client I will be more than glad to.

[Sauls1686]

I know im young but IMHO the stripes are darker when you mulch. Mb not but thats how it seems w/my mowers. (the 21"s, i dont have a bagger for the scag)

[michigan mulcher]

I dont bag much,but have to in some cases. I use an accelerator with a 60" tt walkbehind. What is the blade setup underneath youre mowers. Do you use 2 mid-lift blades and a high lift blades on the discharge. Do you run different blades in wet grass? If so, what do you use? John Gamba, how about youre input on this? Most lawns are fine fescue and blue and full of moisture in the spring.

[battags]

But I say hey if this guy wants to do all the extra work of bagging, and then unloading the truck every night, let him have it. I for one have gotten a taste of mulching this year and will kick and fight if I ever have to go back to ALL bagging again. Maybe in a wet spring I might have to, but not this year.

Ditto. I ONLY bag if I'm playing catch up after the grass has grown high over several rainy days. Even then, I cut it once, let the clippings "dry" some while I trim and edge, and then go back to bag on the second cut. I find that fresh cut clippings dry out pretty quick if the sun hits them for a while. If you have to bag 'em you can pack more in.

Brian

[bobbygedd]

bagging is primitive. learn to walk upright, and stop dragging your knuckles.

[shepoutside]

Most ppl around here have sprinklers, so in this area, we mostly bag, with a break in the mid summer, except this year. Had to bag all year, now is leaf time.

[SystemXpert]

On Customer Lawns, I mulch the clippings. We use leaf machines to remove leaves and mulch the remaining grass clippings when we mow.

Now as for my Own Lawn...I ALWAYS remove the clippings. However, I empty the bagger into my compost pile that in turn get used in my garden. In my opinion a bagged lawn always looks better. My property has some trees and my neighbor's trees drop lots of crap into my yard. (sticks, pine needles, bark, leaves, nuts, those stupid round prickly balls, etc) If I didn't bag, my lawn would look like crap.

SystemXpert