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Junior M
01-09-2010, 10:48 AM
So as yall know, I am not doing anything more than needed with the biz this year with my new occupation.

Well I came rolling in the other night from work and Dad meets me in the garage and says I might have us some work..

I was like oh fun stuff, cause most of the work he gets is electrical.:sleeping: Well turns out, he some how got the number to a guy at the SC forestry commission looking for someone to do some fire break mowing and undergrowth thinning..


I was like umm, and how exactly do you plan on doing this? He says together we can work 4 days a week.. Which will put me working every freakin day of the week. But hey, I want a new truck, I'll deal with it. But I am not getting involved with trying to get the work, I'll do the little bit of leg work he asks me to do but no more..

Well so far he's only asked me do a couple things, find out the weight of the loaders and he asked me to ask yall a couple questions.(I've got him on here looking at pics and stuff, he says he now understands why I am on the computer all the time:laugh: )

1) What kind of production can you expect out of a Fecon doing undergrowth that is just a little to big for a bush hog?

2) What would you do for a machine if you were in our position? (buy new? get a used T300 and set it up? Buy a used T320 already set up?)

YellowDogSVC
01-09-2010, 12:30 PM
So as yall know, I am not doing anything more than needed with the biz this year with my new occupation.

Well I came rolling in the other night from work and Dad meets me in the garage and says I might have us some work..

I was like oh fun stuff, cause most of the work he gets is electrical.:sleeping: Well turns out, he some how got the number to a guy at the SC forestry commission looking for someone to do some fire break mowing and undergrowth thinning..


I was like umm, and how exactly do you plan on doing this? He says together we can work 4 days a week.. Which will put me working every freakin day of the week. But hey, I want a new truck, I'll deal with it. But I am not getting involved with trying to get the work, I'll do the little bit of leg work he asks me to do but no more..

Well so far he's only asked me do a couple things, find out the weight of the loaders and he asked me to ask yall a couple questions.(I've got him on here looking at pics and stuff, he says he now understands why I am on the computer all the time:laugh: )

1) What kind of production can you expect out of a Fecon doing undergrowth that is just a little to big for a bush hog?

2) What would you do for a machine if you were in our position? (buy new? get a used T300 and set it up? Buy a used T320 already set up?)

Well Junior, you finally asked a question I can help with..
You know about the learning curve for mulching and that you need quite a bit of support for one.

To answer question number one, you could mulch ALOT of small material in a day with either machine you mentioned especially in cooler weather. If they are only concerned with knockdown and you aren't backdragging/re-mulching, then it's blow and go on 3-4" material.

As for a machine? I would get as much hp as you can afford. If you buy, you are stuck with it..when work slows so you would want to commit. T320 and mulcher is about 12,500 lbs. You would need a large transfer tank because you will only get 4-5 hrs at full throttle on high flow between fill-ups. You will need an air compressor and long handled blow gun and a couple of other things.

If you get the Bobcat with Bobcat mulcher, it will most likely have the forestry production kit which adds even more weight. I don't like it.
If you get a used machine that isn't set up, you will need lexan, no if's and's or but's if you want to be safe. I know where to get Lexan to exactly fit G and K series doors.

Hope this helps.

curtisfarmer
01-09-2010, 12:42 PM
I would lease, rent to own or anything BUT go out and make a huge capital investment in a fledgling opportunity.:)

Don't get burned quickly just starting out.

Bleed Green
01-09-2010, 12:56 PM
I would make sure you have plenty of work lined up for a machine before I would buy. Do you know how long term this deal is?

YellowDogSVC
01-09-2010, 01:03 PM
I would make sure you have plenty of work lined up for a machine before I would buy. good advice

ksss
01-09-2010, 02:42 PM
That was going to be my suggestion. I would try and find one to rent or if you think it may turn into more, put it on an RPO so you can roll your rent over to a purchase. If you at least owned a high flow machine perhaps you could start hunting for a good deal on a mulcher, but if you need both right out of the box your asking to get some butt sex before its all over. Unlikely there is enough money to be made to fund a skid steer and mulcher and still cover costs (including your wage). However maybe I am wrong.

Gravel Rat
01-09-2010, 03:00 PM
Sub the job out to Andrew and watch him work :laugh:

DCsouth
01-09-2010, 03:28 PM
I'll add alittle. The others gave good advice, I'll try to tie it together alittle better. Yes a large skid steer can be productive. But you have to also look at how much small material you will be engaging at once. 1-2 4" trees are easy, 4+ 4" at one time will bog a head. So the density is inportant to look as well as the lay of the terrain (hills etc.)
Also most will not rent or lease mulchers so a more realistic route would be purchase the head and then you can rent or lease a high flow skid steer alone.
And lastley I'll throw this in a high production head will go along way. Both on the tractor and production. Hint Hint:D

DUSTYCEDAR
01-09-2010, 03:37 PM
dont be a tool
help your old man out

AWJ Services
01-09-2010, 04:45 PM
Your talking a 100K+ investment so it better be a pretty good contract.

Heavyduty1
01-09-2010, 06:11 PM
Your talking a 100K+ investment so it better be a pretty good contract.

Yeah, make sure you got a good contract set before you make a mistake. I hate for them to run out of $$$ and you end up getting stuck with the payments. :cry:

Bleed Green
01-09-2010, 06:17 PM
Would there be any other work that you could use this machine on if you would buy Jr.?
Could you use it for any of the other brush work you have been doing or the pool stuff or are you out of all that stuff now?

Junior M
01-09-2010, 06:27 PM
Well Junior, you finally asked a question I can help with..
You know about the learning curve for mulching and that you need quite a bit of support for one.

To answer question number one, you could mulch ALOT of small material in a day with either machine you mentioned especially in cooler weather. If they are only concerned with knockdown and you aren't backdragging/re-mulching, then it's blow and go on 3-4" material.

As for a machine? I would get as much hp as you can afford. If you buy, you are stuck with it..when work slows so you would want to commit. T320 and mulcher is about 12,500 lbs. You would need a large transfer tank because you will only get 4-5 hrs at full throttle on high flow between fill-ups. You will need an air compressor and long handled blow gun and a couple of other things.

If you get the Bobcat with Bobcat mulcher, it will most likely have the forestry production kit which adds even more weight. I don't like it.
If you get a used machine that isn't set up, you will need lexan, no if's and's or but's if you want to be safe. I know where to get Lexan to exactly fit G and K series doors.

Hope this helps.

The forestry package is what has been worrying me. Sounds like I dont really need it.

And I've already told him we'll need a fuel tank, air compressor and some hand tools..

And when I talked about a machine, I was thinking of finding a decent T300 and just go from there for the attachments..

As of now, we are renting, no if ands or buts. Way to much to risk by just buying a machine right off the bat. But our expenses per week will be freakin horrible renting, thats why I'd like to get some work lined up and find a used machine and go from there.. Sorry a new machine came across as an option because its definetly not. Especially in our position, I just wanted yalls opinion..

Thats just my idea though, I dont wanna really get involved with this, its Dads deal. I am just here to do what he asks..

I'll add alittle. The others gave good advice, I'll try to tie it together alittle better. Yes a large skid steer can be productive. But you have to also look at how much small material you will be engaging at once. 1-2 4" trees are easy, 4+ 4" at one time will bog a head. So the density is inportant to look as well as the lay of the terrain (hills etc.)
Also most will not rent or lease mulchers so a more realistic route would be purchase the head and then you can rent or lease a high flow skid steer alone.
And lastley I'll throw this in a high production head will go along way. Both on the tractor and production. Hint Hint:D

could you or yellow give an acreage rate? Just a guess?

dont be a tool
help your old man out

I am helping, I am not going to work my ass off or do more than what I am asked like I would've before..

Would there be any other work that you could use this machine on if you would buy Jr.?
Could you use it for any of the other brush work you have been doing or the pool stuff or are you out of all that stuff now?

I am sure I could find the work, especially this time of the year with all the people I know that are wanting things to done on there hunt clubs..

But I dont know, Dad called the guy Friday and no answer. I'll see if he calls again Monday, that'll show how serious he is..

curtisfarmer
01-09-2010, 07:04 PM
Keep in mind you are talking seriuos money....someone say $100K here? Think about the "other" alternatives to what this money could do. ROI analysis is key at this juncture. For that $ you could buy or start 2 completely different businesses, even 2 non-cyclical ones so when 1 is down, the other is up, which may produce more than what you are contemplating. I am in now way steering you away from what your are discussing cause I know NOTHING about that business.:) As someone who runs 3 diffferent businesses that are completely non-related and a corporate finance refugee, what I am saying is look at all your options, costs, and potnetial leverage (meaning get the most for $ invested against fixed costs) for what you could ALSO do with that $. Being a small business person, I look at every $ to see where it is BEST spent. I know someone who bought a laundry mat for under $50K, and he makes close to a decent wage with that investment. You could do 2 small businesses with your nut you may be facing...and probably do alright. Diversify young man, betting on 1 specific service sounds iffy with it entailing high upfont costs, high operating costs, and a dedicated machine.:drinkup:

Junior M
01-09-2010, 07:14 PM
Keep in mind you are talking seriuos money....someone say $100K here? Think about the "other" alternatives to what this money could do. ROI analysis is key at this juncture. For that $ you could buy or start 2 completely different businesses, even 2 non-cyclical ones so when 1 is down, the other is up, which may produce more than what you are contemplating. I am in now way steering you away from what your are discussing cause I know NOTHING about that business.:) As someone who runs 3 diffferent businesses that are completely non-related and a corporate finance refugee, what I am saying is look at all your options, costs, and potnetial leverage (meaning get the most for $ invested against fixed costs) for what you could ALSO do with that $. Being a small business person, I look at every $ to see where it is BEST spent. I know someone who bought a laundry mat for under $50K, and he makes close to a decent wage with that investment. You could do 2 small businesses with your nut you may be facing...and probably do alright. Diversify young man, betting on 1 specific service sounds iffy with it entailing high upfont costs, high operating costs, and a dedicated machine.:drinkup:
You obviously know nothing about our situation..

We've got no money to invest in this, other than what we've got in the bank which would probably cover the small stuff(fuel tank, tool box, air compressor)

We dont have $50k to invest and as most know I am not looking for a biz for the money. I am in a job right now because I needed the money and a back up plan that I am beginning to realize I freakin hate! And I dont wanna do it again, no matter how bad my last job sucked atleast I liked the work..

All we've got to really invest is our livelyhood. We arent going into this because we need the money, atleast I am not. I am doing it because its what I wanna do with my life, its what I love to do. In no way do I hate to get up in the morning to go work for myself, but I dread going to my current job because its boring as hell and I frankly, I kinda suck at it..

Dad is doing it, well just because he wants to see me go somewhere with my life and he loves running equipment, its what he's done for years..

And me and Dad talked about it, if we can get this work and get a machine, start diversifying ourselves. That is kinda what killed his business years ago, having all his eggs in one basket so to say.

Btw, buying a CTL with a fecon head isnt a dedicated machine. If we bought a Super Trak, that'd be a dedicated machine..

AEL
01-09-2010, 07:25 PM
Good luck Juinor, Sounds like you got a good head on your shoulders and you know what you want. Im sure you guys can pull it off. The difference between the ones who fail and the ones who suceed is the failures just gave up. Always keep pushing and eventually you will get rewarded.

YellowDogSVC
01-09-2010, 07:33 PM
I'll add alittle. The others gave good advice, I'll try to tie it together alittle better. Yes a large skid steer can be productive. But you have to also look at how much small material you will be engaging at once. 1-2 4" trees are easy, 4+ 4" at one time will bog a head. So the density is inportant to look as well as the lay of the terrain (hills etc.)
Also most will not rent or lease mulchers so a more realistic route would be purchase the head and then you can rent or lease a high flow skid steer alone.
And lastley I'll throw this in a high production head will go along way. Both on the tractor and production. Hint Hint:D

you may not likely find a rental machine designed to be in the woods, ie., set up with Lexan, muffler guards, light guards, etc. I know some rental departments specifiy no tree clearing with rental machines. You may be able to buy a regular door and get a lexan insert for it and swap it on the rental. Get the damage waiver! ;)

Oh, production rates vary with density, terrain, tree type, and time of year. Winter is a great time of year because a lot of trees have no leaves and you can see in the woods better. It just depends. I never guarantee any type of production rate but can get 1-2 AC/day on average in medium thick material. Just depends! So much is dependent on the variables I listed. I have gotten only 1/2 AC/day with an XPS cat and mulcher and as far as 7 ac/day with same machine.

Junior M
01-09-2010, 07:35 PM
you may not likely find a rental machine designed to be in the woods, ie., set up with Lexan, muffler guards, light guards, etc. I know some rental departments specifiy no tree clearing with rental machines.
Not here.. Bobcat is renting me one, he already has one on the yard ready to go when Dad talked him last Tuesday.. T320 set up just like Andrews..

curtisfarmer
01-09-2010, 07:46 PM
Sounds great saying this is what you want to do...because it is great:)...just pay attention to the details and make sure you make the right decision. You need to remove the emotions from the equtaion and crunch the $#s....other wise Bobcat of wherever will be at your next job to take your CTL away....boombiddybyebye:confused:

I know this thread is just another way for you justify a Kubota TLB so you can truely be diversified:laugh: :laugh::laugh:I know your forestry head can do everything for sure....for mulching.....but surely you'll need more to stay diversified.

You are talking real $, make sure you make the right decision the 1st time.......or we will be seeing you on IronPlanet:nono:

YellowDogSVC
01-09-2010, 08:04 PM
Not here.. Bobcat is renting me one, he already has one on the yard ready to go when Dad talked him last Tuesday.. T320 set up just like Andrews..

that would be a sweet way to go.

Junior M
01-09-2010, 08:48 PM
that would be a sweet way to go.
Yeah, to the tune of $2800 a week.. :cry: :dizzy:

And thanks Yellow, that was Dads biggest question.. I'll tell him just what you said..

ARP
01-10-2010, 09:57 PM
Hey Junior,

Sorry for not joining in sooner- been away having a life for once! :laugh:

In terms of production, Yellowdog's numbers look pretty good. (He was/is one of my main mentors for this work on LS so I'd trust him:drinkup:). Just remember, terrain and material density are the deciding factors on how much terrain you can cover in a day. DCSouth also made a good comment about the type and density of material that you are engaging and how it affects your production.

Even though it's $2800/wk, it would be safer to go the rental route than commit to a purchase (as I'm sure you know). If you two are serious about the business, get the tools, rent the machine, and push like heck during the whole process to get more work for the machine to maybe line up enough work to justify something other than renting. As someone else mentioned, state work is notoriously fickle as budgets can dry up without warning leaving contractors hanging. The hunting clubs could be a good source of work as well.

Oh ya, definitely go with at least the polycarbonate door, if not the whole forestry package. After starting to train some potential employees on the machine recently, I highly recommend as much protection as you can get for yourself and the machine.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Junior M
01-10-2010, 10:01 PM
Hey Junior,

Sorry for not joining in sooner- been away having a life for once! :laugh:

In terms of production, Yellowdog's numbers look pretty good. (He was/is one of my main mentors for this work on LS so I'd trust him:drinkup:). Just remember, terrain and material density are the deciding factors on how much terrain you can cover in a day. DCSouth also made a good comment about the type and density of material that you are engaging and how it affects your production.

Even though it's $2800/wk, it would be safer to go the rental route than commit to a purchase (as I'm sure you know). If you two are serious about the business, get the tools, rent the machine, and push like heck during the whole process to get more work for the machine to maybe line up enough work to justify something other than renting. As someone else mentioned, state work is notoriously fickle as budgets can dry up without warning leaving contractors hanging. The hunting clubs could be a good source of work as well.

Oh ya, definitely go with at least the polycarbonate door, if not the whole forestry package. After starting to train some potential employees on the machine recently, I highly recommend as much protection as you can get for yourself and the machine.

Good luck and keep us posted!
I am serious about doing it. I just cant see how its going to work because we cant go fulltime.. But we'll see what happens. Dad is calling him back in the morning..

Whats sad, I've got work for the machine right now, but cant get the machine there due to budget issues.. :wall I did talk them into bringing in a trackhoe though.. :drinkup: So stay tuned for this flustercuck.

But anyways, thanks for the advice Andrew.. I am curious as to why you say get the forestry package? Yellow, why do you say skip the forestry package and just get a door?

ARP
01-10-2010, 10:16 PM
I say get the forestry package because the added weight to me (especially on a track machine that already weighs alot) is a minor tradeoff for the protection the package offers. A short list of the benefits are 1.) less debris build up in the engine compartment/ lift cylinder area, 2.) less clogging and easier/faster daily cleaning of the grating covering the radiators, 3.)Increased top-of-cab protection from falling limbs or trees (including the viewing window that could potentially be a great "trap door" for sharp branches that want to land between your legs in the cab.

To put it in perspective, the other T320 (without forestry package) from the company that I sub to had a fire recently between the engine and the cab due to debris build up. While proper and thorough cleaning of the machine in regular intervals might have helped prevent this, the guarding around the engine door and lift cylinders would have helped even more by keeping a lot of the debris out.

I'm looking forward to hearing how this turns out for you! Go get your war helmet on :laugh: Any more questions, just shoot them over. :drinkup:

Junior M
01-10-2010, 10:20 PM
I say get the forestry package because the added weight to me (especially on a track machine that already weighs alot) is a minor tradeoff for the protection the package offers. A short list of the benefits are 1.) less debris build up in the engine compartment/ lift cylinder area, 2.) less clogging and easier/faster daily cleaning of the grating covering the radiators, 3.)Increased top-of-cab protection from falling limbs or trees (including the viewing window that could potentially be a great "trap door" for sharp branches that want to land between your legs in the cab.

To put it in perspective, the other T320 (without forestry package) from the company that I sub to had a fire recently between the engine and the cab due to debris build up. While proper and thorough cleaning of the machine in regular intervals might have helped prevent this, the guarding around the engine door and lift cylinders would have helped even more by keeping a lot of the debris out.

I'm looking forward to hearing how this turns out for you! Go get your war helmet on :laugh: Any more questions, just shoot them over. :drinkup:
that was kinda my worry, fire..

You make a very good point and I am pretty sure thats enough to make Dad get a forestry package, even if he decides on a used T300..

I'd still like to hear Yellows argument..

Again, thanks Andrew.. :waving:

Fieldman12
01-10-2010, 11:58 PM
Yeah, to the tune of $2800 a week.. :cry: :dizzy:

And thanks Yellow, that was Dads biggest question.. I'll tell him just what you said..

Junior, sounds like renting is gonna cost you guys a bunch of money also. You said you guys don't have much cash on hand. Was wondering if you guys are going to borrow the money to pay the weekly rental payments or was gonna try to get some money up front for the work to be done?

Gravel Rat
01-11-2010, 12:57 AM
This job may state you need to use a machine with a fire suppression system on it. Your machine catches fire and causes a bush fire and creates millions of dollars worth of damage your in big trouble.

Junior M
01-11-2010, 07:34 AM
This job may state you need to use a machine with a fire suppression system on it. Your machine catches fire and causes a bush fire and creates millions of dollars worth of damage your in big trouble.
You make a good point considering we're mowing to knock down the brush and chance of fire.. :laugh:

Junior M
01-11-2010, 07:35 AM
Junior, sounds like renting is gonna cost you guys a bunch of money also. You said you guys don't have much cash on hand. Was wondering if you guys are going to borrow the money to pay the weekly rental payments or was gonna try to get some money up front for the work to be done?
That I dont know.. That would be something for Dad to answer..

YellowDogSVC
01-11-2010, 08:39 AM
that was kinda my worry, fire..

You make a very good point and I am pretty sure thats enough to make Dad get a forestry package, even if he decides on a used T300..

I'd still like to hear Yellows argument..

Again, thanks Andrew.. :waving:

even if you rent, you should open the cab occasionally and pull some of the "fluff" out. I also try and wash out the engine bay and around the lift arms weekly with a hose. You will be surprised how much stuff comes out like leaves, twigs, and fluff.
Fire is always a concern. I worry a lot about hoses. I also carry two extinguishers in the machine. One behind me in the corner and the other next to me (a tundra extinguisher). I also cover all the access holes on the side of the machine with caulk ( you may not be able to do that with rental) and other larger openings with cut to fit A/C filter stuffed into the holes. The Bobcat fan pulls a lot of air and will pull debris in through those holes.

YellowDogSVC
01-11-2010, 08:40 AM
That I dont know.. That would be something for Dad to answer..

if your dad could negotiate the rental price?? The machine may be sitting on the lot with no income for dealer.

ioilyouin
01-11-2010, 09:59 AM
Have you priced the forestry package? I believe it's North of 5K.

MackCat
01-11-2010, 11:35 AM
2,800 a week, thats WAY high when i first started mowing R.O.W. I rented a Posi- Track with the cutter for 3,600 a Month

DCsouth
01-11-2010, 07:24 PM
Okay. Plan C. 2800 a week @52 month=145,600.00 Even 16 weeks (4 months) is 44k. Those are not very good numbers. I would be looking for a used machine. Not a skid steer but a dedicated machine. I know where a Rayco 87 is with an added overhead cooling package for 30k I think, with head would be 60k. This would be a good startup tractor. It has the same flow and psi as a ASV-100. I tested it so I know.
This would eliminate the whole added forestry package for it is properly equipped. You will loose alittle manuverability but will gain in better durability. Plus this package with planier head will outcut a Bobcat and Bobcat head 2-1. Just my .02 cents

Junior M
01-11-2010, 07:29 PM
if your dad could negotiate the rental price?? The machine may be sitting on the lot with no income for dealer.
When I called last about a T320, it was running $3,500 a week.. Dad talked to our salesman and he said he could do $2,800 sense its just sitting on the yard doing nothing..


I highly doubt Dad will go any farther with this. I'll ask him tomorrow if he's called the guy.

Junior M
01-11-2010, 07:32 PM
Have you priced the forestry package? I believe it's North of 5K.
A forestry package has to be cheaper when you price a $25k T300, with like lets say(just a pure guess) $15k in attachments and outfitting the machine. (Fecon and forestry package) compared to a $90k T320 already set up..

ksss
01-11-2010, 07:57 PM
When I called last about a T320, it was running $3,500 a week.. Dad talked to our salesman and he said he could do $2,800 sense its just sitting on the yard doing nothing..


I highly doubt Dad will go any farther with this. I'll ask him tomorrow if he's called the guy.

OK, thats an insane amount of money. Thats about 12k a month to Bobcat. I guess it all depends on what your doing and what you can get the bid for. The other option is brush hog all that you can, and hire someone to mulch what you could not get. You might find that you can clear the same amount of money without the risk or headache. Just a thought.

Junior M
01-11-2010, 08:00 PM
OK, thats an insane amount of money. Thats about 12k a month to Bobcat. I guess it all depends on what your doing and what you can get the bid for. The other option is brush hog all that you can, and hire someone to mulch what you could not get. You might find that you can clear the same amount of money without the risk or headache. Just a thought.
I mentioned the samething to Dad and he was told the material that needed mowed was to large for a bush hog..

I just got home from work not to long ago and he's already asleep, so I'll see whats going on in the morning..

YellowDogSVC
01-11-2010, 09:55 PM
I mentioned the samething to Dad and he was told the material that needed mowed was to large for a bush hog..

I just got home from work not to long ago and he's already asleep, so I'll see whats going on in the morning..

you could buy my s330 and put OTT tracks on it for less than that rentals comes out to over a couple of months. I would try and negotiate a bit.
Another option. Look at renting an s220K series or S250 or S300 and buy or rent a Davco. It will knock down anything you want up to about 6". Still need lexan but it is a lot less maintenance and the learning curve isn't so steep.

I wouldn't invest in a dedicated machine. You can make too much money doing side jobs with skid steer attachments. Grapple work alone pays well.

AEL
01-11-2010, 10:24 PM
http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7027920

Look at what your neighbour has forsale for a pretty decent price.

AEL
01-11-2010, 10:49 PM
or get this killer deal on machine

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7048041

And this good deal on the cutter head and safety kit

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7045965

Junior M
01-12-2010, 06:58 AM
you could buy my s330 and put OTT tracks on it for less than that rentals comes out to over a couple of months. I would try and negotiate a bit.
Another option. Look at renting an s220K series or S250 or S300 and buy or rent a Davco. It will knock down anything you want up to about 6". Still need lexan but it is a lot less maintenance and the learning curve isn't so steep.

I wouldn't invest in a dedicated machine. You can make too much money doing side jobs with skid steer attachments. Grapple work alone pays well.

I mentioned a wheeled machine to Dad and he didnt seem to excited.. :laugh: :wall

I'll check it out.. The only problem I see, they dont rent machines with cabs. Maybe we can figure something out though..

And I didnt plan on a dedicated machine. If we went with a dedicated machine it would screw the diversifying idea..

or get this killer deal on machine

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7048041

And this good deal on the cutter head and safety kit

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7045965

dam, thats a clean machine for an 05!

DCsouth
01-12-2010, 07:38 AM
I ran mulching equipment so I know you have to diversify. BUT if I had been more productive and had the equipment like I described I could have taken on much larger jobs and had a better result. It is completely up to you and your situation. BUT (yes another one) I know who is around you and what they are running and if they ever get the bosses to see what they can do you will be off the job. No disrespect but I have seen several kicked off jobs for low production and poor material size. Yes there is a chance they will not know what level of quality you are giving them compared to another machine/head but I'm sure a competitor will show them.
With so many skid steers already out there it would be worth the effort to look ahead and see where this might go. If they come up and say thin this 300 acre track you will kill a skid steer trying to get it done in a timely manner.
If true skid steer (dirt) work comes up then a smaller low flow machine would be much cheaper and readily available for short term rent.
When I was mulching I didn't know of these web sites and wasn't able to capitalize on the info here. So use what you want and keep us posted.

Junior M
01-12-2010, 07:39 PM
I ran mulching equipment so I know you have to diversify. BUT if I had been more productive and had the equipment like I described I could have taken on much larger jobs and had a better result. It is completely up to you and your situation. BUT (yes another one) I know who is around you and what they are running and if they ever get the bosses to see what they can do you will be off the job. No disrespect but I have seen several kicked off jobs for low production and poor material size. Yes there is a chance they will not know what level of quality you are giving them compared to another machine/head but I'm sure a competitor will show them.
With so many skid steers already out there it would be worth the effort to look ahead and see where this might go. If they come up and say thin this 300 acre track you will kill a skid steer trying to get it done in a timely manner.
If true skid steer (dirt) work comes up then a smaller low flow machine would be much cheaper and readily available for short term rent.
When I was mulching I didn't know of these web sites and wasn't able to capitalize on the info here. So use what you want and keep us posted.
Please, let me know who you know around here..

jimmyjack
01-12-2010, 07:56 PM
i know alot of people on here dont like the ASV machines , but just throwing it out there , we have two rc100 with the forestry package on them that are repo units from CAROLINA EQUIPMENT in fairview NC that they're selling

Junior M
01-12-2010, 08:01 PM
i know alot of people on here dont like the ASV machines , but just throwing it out there , we have two rc100 with the forestry package on them that are repo units from CAROLINA EQUIPMENT in fairview NC that they're selling
I'll tell dad....

I've already mentioned any other brand of machine to him but he doesnt seem like he's to excited..

Would you believe the f#cker didnt call that guy today? This is why I dont want a thing to do with him, cause he does all the freakin leg work and BS then wont go after the work.. :wall

I now remember why I was done messing with his crap..

tnmtn
01-12-2010, 08:34 PM
it seems kind of odd that your dad doesn't get on here and ask his own questions. you had mentioned in the past that you had shown him the site.

Barge Man
01-12-2010, 08:37 PM
Would you believe the f#cker didnt call that guy today? This is why I dont want a thing to do with him, cause he does all the freakin leg work and BS then wont go after the work.. :wall

I now remember why I was done messing with his crap..[/QUOTE]

Don't worry Junior I have to put up with my dad every day. You learn how to deal with it, their are several jobs we pass up just because he has some stupid reason (mainly he doesn't want to travel further than hour away) why we shouldn't do it. But since he currently owns more shares of the company than I do we work close to home. Let me tell you one thing though if you and your dad are like we are it is amazing what two people can get accomplished and you wouldn't want to have anyone other than him.
thats my experience's:)

Junior M
01-12-2010, 08:53 PM
it seems kind of odd that your dad doesn't get on here and ask his own questions. you had mentioned in the past that you had shown him the site.
I've shown him the site, but he isnt real computer oriented if you know what I am saying?

Plus it'd take him 2 days to type what I can do in a few minutes.. :laugh:

And derek, I know exactly what you mean. But this part is what pisses me off about him. I can deal with everything else..

93turbo
01-12-2010, 09:23 PM
Would you believe the f#cker didnt call that guy today? This is why I dont want a thing to do with him, cause he does all the freakin leg work and BS then wont go after the work.. :wall

I now remember why I was done messing with his crap..

Don't worry Junior I have to put up with my dad every day. You learn how to deal with it, their are several jobs we pass up just because he has some stupid reason (mainly he doesn't want to travel further than hour away) why we shouldn't do it. But since he currently owns more shares of the company than I do we work close to home. Let me tell you one thing though if you and your dad are like we are it is amazing what two people can get accomplished and you wouldn't want to have anyone other than him.
thats my experience's:)[/QUOTE]

Of course theres always something to agrivate you but its that way with anybody. I can get more done with my dad then anybody else cause we think alike so we hardly have to talk we just get it done:cool2:

nedly05
01-13-2010, 05:34 AM
I work with my Dad everyday too, so I understand the frustration. I got in trouble for taking on a basement dig 1/2 hr away for a guy who gives us a ton of work. We didnt have to go back, he had a guy from that town lined up to do the rest, he just needed the basement dug so he could get the concrete poured and keep his guys busy. I get frustrated about certain things but he has 44 years on the job so when I stop and think about it most times what he is saying is right. I am eager to go and he is slowing down so until he lets me have the reins it will probably be a bit frustrating!

Junior M
01-13-2010, 06:54 AM
The whole deal with going after the work is my only problem with my Dad..

He's taught me everything I know so I dont know any other way to do the jobs. so we work together great and never talk because we know how its going to be done..

ioilyouin
01-13-2010, 03:40 PM
My sentiments on working with your dad. Like everyone else says, when it's good it's really good. The worst part is you still live at home. You can't get away. Now I live in another town, and he and mom don't understand why I don't like to come over for lunch when I'm in town working. Just give me a half hour away!

Junior M
01-13-2010, 06:57 PM
My sentiments on working with your dad. Like everyone else says, when it's good it's really good. The worst part is you still live at home. You can't get away. Now I live in another town, and he and mom don't understand why I don't like to come over for lunch when I'm in town working. Just give me a half hour away!
Exactly.. They cant understand why I am constantly out running around or at work. Its because I need sometime away from not just Dad, but mom too..

Junior M
01-31-2010, 10:03 AM
So Dad called that guy like 5 or 6 times, left a voicemail each time. No calls back so far..

We had a demo on a T320 this past friday, but due to Dad having to work to get a job done we couldnt demo it..


But now he's on this new thing, which I am pretty sure we could pull off.. Not just us though..

So him and my boss are pretty good friends, they were talking about work Friday night while out having a beer. Well my boss brought up septics and wells.. Dad said well we dont have the money to get into that.

my boss was on this thing that all we needed was a 310 JD. :rolleyes: But Dad thinks he may help us out because Dad mentioned well we cant move that and he said something about us using his truck.. So he is goin to talk to him some more about it..




But anyways, Dad is really interested in seeing if he could help us get started. So what all do I need to look into?

I know I need to start looking at:
Licenses
tank supplier
Can that tile with the gravel wrapped around it be used for every job?
Will the supplier bring the tank and set it in the hole?


What am I missing?

AWJ Services
01-31-2010, 10:37 AM
What are you missing?

A QA on the front of that backhoe.:)

Junior M
01-31-2010, 10:43 AM
What are you missing?

A QA on the front of that backhoe.:)
I was looking at the prices of backhoes and mini excavators on Machinery trader last night..

They want $32,500 for a fully loaded Bobcat 335 with 175 hours(Q/A, angle blade, cab, thumb and 24in bucket)

For a 310 JD with comparable hours was anywhere from loaded to plain jane with nothing but 4wd was $60k

To get down to even $36k, they were around 1,500 hours.



But seriously AWJ, you were the person I was hoping would help me out with this. Am I missing anything?

AWJ Services
01-31-2010, 10:47 AM
So Dad called that guy like 5 or 6 times, left a voicemail each time. No calls back so far..

We had a demo on a T320 this past friday, but due to Dad having to work to get a job done we couldnt demo it..


But now he's on this new thing, which I am pretty sure we could pull off.. Not just us though..

So him and my boss are pretty good friends, they were talking about work Friday night while out having a beer. Well my boss brought up septics and wells.. Dad said well we dont have the money to get into that.

my boss was on this thing that all we needed was a 310 JD. :rolleyes: But Dad thinks he may help us out because Dad mentioned well we cant move that and he said something about us using his truck.. So he is goin to talk to him some more about it..




But anyways, Dad is really interested in seeing if he could help us get started. So what all do I need to look into?

I know I need to start looking at:
Licenses
tank supplier
Can that tile with the gravel wrapped around it be used for every job?
Will the supplier bring the tank and set it in the hole?


What am I missing?

Backhoes are good for septics but excavators work well also.

http://www.scdhec.gov/health/envhlth/onsite_wastewater/




Get to reading.


Everything has to be state approved in regards to materials and your state will have a list of suppliers of tanks and approved products.

AWJ Services
01-31-2010, 10:53 AM
I was looking at the prices of backhoes and mini excavators on Machinery trader last night..

They want $32,500 for a fully loaded Bobcat 335 with 175 hours(Q/A, angle blade, cab, thumb and 24in bucket)

For a 310 JD with comparable hours was anywhere from loaded to plain jane with nothing but 4wd was $60k

To get down to even $36k, they were around 1,500 hours.



But seriously AWJ, you were the person I was hoping would help me out with this. Am I missing anything?



The QA was a joke aimed at the lasted Lawnsite expert.LOL

You can get backhoes cheaper than that if you look. You can find KX-161 excavators with open cabs for 25k. Heck a KX-081 just sold on IP for 37k.

The first thing you need to do is find out what product the competition is using, price per ft they are installing it, and if the new construction is not there you will have to do repairs which means you will have to deal with Effluent or poopy water . The margins are not as high as Landscape installations but the work is much steadier.
If your serious about this you need to call me and I will do what I can to help you.

Junior M
01-31-2010, 10:55 AM
Backhoes are good for septics but excavators work well also.

http://www.scdhec.gov/health/envhlth/onsite_wastewater/




Get to reading.


Everything has to be state approved in regards to materials and your state will have a list of suppliers of tanks and approved products.
Thanks AWJ, I didnt even think to look there.. :waving:

Junior M
01-31-2010, 10:59 AM
The QA was a joke aimed at the lasted Lawnsite expert.LOL

You can get backhoes cheaper than that if you look. You can find KX-161 excavators with open cabs for 25k. Heck a KX-081 just sold on IP for 37k.

The first thing you need to do is find out what product the competition is using, price per ft they are installing it, and if the new construction is not there you will have to do repairs which means you will have to deal with Effluent or poopy water . The margins are not as high as Landscape installations but the work is much steadier.
If your serious about this you need to call me and I will do what I can to help you.
I know it was.. :laugh: I am thinking an L48 would stomp the 310 in the dirt all day long..


and as of now, there is one guy in this area that has the market cornered for installs, he forms his own tanks and is the only one in this area that sells the flowrite pipe or whatever you call it (the tile with the gravel around it) I am calling monday to find out what he charges.

And a backhoe wouldnt be our first choice, but if he is goin to help us get going and thats what he insists on getting, then so be it!

I am pretty serious about it, but we need to find out if we can get help getting started.

AWJ Services
01-31-2010, 11:16 AM
I know it was.. :laugh: I am thinking an L48 would stomp the 310 in the dirt all day long..


and as of now, there is one guy in this area that has the market cornered for installs, he forms his own tanks and is the only one in this area that sells the flowrite pipe or whatever you call it (the tile with the gravel around it) I am calling monday to find out what he charges.

And a backhoe wouldnt be our first choice, but if he is goin to help us get going and thats what he insists on getting, then so be it!

I am pretty serious about it, but we need to find out if we can get help getting started.

Here is the approved EZ flow products for your state

http://www.ezflowlp.com/map/map_pdf/southcarolina.pdf

One other thing if you do get an excavator get one with enough hyd flow to run a flail mower( 19gpm min).

Junior M
01-31-2010, 11:24 AM
Here is the approved EZ flow products for your state

http://www.ezflowlp.com/map/map_pdf/southcarolina.pdf

One other thing if you do get an excavator get one with enough hyd flow to run a flail mower( 19gpm min).
Thats what me and Dad were just talking about. We could get into a trackhoe and skid for the price of a backhoe. With alot more options for work..


AWJ, from what I've noticed around here, the guy that has the market cornered isnt getting an inspection or pulling permits the way DHEC is saying. Are there different codes for say, a builder installing a system himself to say a dedicated company that is licensed for installing systems? I know you wont know for SC, but lets say for your state..

AWJ Services
01-31-2010, 12:24 PM
Thats what me and Dad were just talking about. We could get into a trackhoe and skid for the price of a backhoe. With alot more options for work..


AWJ, from what I've noticed around here, the guy that has the market cornered isnt getting an inspection or pulling permits the way DHEC is saying. Are there different codes for say, a builder installing a system himself to say a dedicated company that is licensed for installing systems? I know you wont know for SC, but lets say for your state..

The state sets Guidelines and the County is in charge of implementing the guide lines. Here you have Residential, Commercial, Mound and Drip are the 4 licenses here in Ga for installers. Everyone is the same. Everyone has to permit and get inspected. Contct your local enviromental health dept and speak with the agent. If there are no permits or inspections then that will speed things up.

Junior M
01-31-2010, 12:29 PM
The state sets Guidelines and the County is in charge of implementing the guide lines. Here you have Residential, Commercial, Mound and Drip are the 4 licenses here in Ga for installers. Everyone is the same. Everyone has to permit and get inspected. Contct your local enviromental health dept and speak with the agent. If there are no permits or inspections then that will speed things up.
Alright, I'll do that.

I was asking because the company here doesnt set up for DHEC to come out nor do they get inspections.. I hope its a county thing, like you said it'll keep things moving..

Thanks. :waving:

btw, Dad said my boss is serious about this, we just gotta get the numbers and stuff together to see what its going to take..

curtisfarmer
01-31-2010, 12:30 PM
1 of the more successful guys once told me getting his spetic liscense was the #1 best thing he ever did. It gets you into full house lot jobs and other stuff too. No one around here does it with a hoe (though will have onsite to move material, usually excavator to load out failed system or bail out hole for new sand for new install) cause it can't set the tanks (though we all know the L48 would:), but realistically every tank co. around now has booms and offers to set for dirt cheap. Although everyone and their mother offers septic install / repair around here, only a few busy ones and they are the ones that usually are set up to finish off house sites from foundation to septic to driveway to finish lawn install.

I would say go for it, pretty low overhead if you can get a cheap machine, though it will require laser, compactor, and other stuff which you can use. It is a good skill/ service to offer which is symbiotic with other future potentail work.

I guess the other issue is trucking where most systems and eventual site repair rquire some serious loads in and out, so depending on your trucking situation, others may be cheaper bidding if they own their own dump space, have own topsoil stockpile, and trucking.

I bet the state liscence is real cheap, probably cheaper than the corn you should be studying to get "aquainted" with the biz.:laugh:

Junior M
01-31-2010, 12:37 PM
1 of the more successful guys once told me getting his spetic liscense was the #1 best thing he ever did. It gets you into full house lot jobs and other stuff too. No one around here does it with a hoe (though will have onsite to move material, usually excavator to load out failed system or bail out hole for new sand for new install) cause it can't set the tanks (though we all know the L48 would:), but realistically every tank co. around now has booms and offers to set for dirt cheap. Although everyone and their mother offers septic install / repair around here, only a few busy ones and they are the ones that usually are set up to finish off house sites from foundation to septic to driveway to finish lawn install.

I would say go for it, pretty low overhead if you can get a cheap machine, though it will require laser, compactor, and other stuff which you can use. It is a good skill/ service to offer which is symbiotic with other future potentail work.

I guess the other issue is trucking where most systems and eventual site repair rquire some serious loads in and out, so depending on your trucking situation, others may be cheaper bidding if they own their own dump space, have own topsoil stockpile, and trucking.

I bet the state liscence is real cheap, probably cheaper than the corn you should be studying to get "aquainted" with the biz.:laugh:
The tank setting is what is bothering me. But we'll get around that, or find a way around it..

Its bothering me because like I said, the guy that makes the tank in this area also does the installs. I doubt he'd be to happy about setting tanks for competitors. I can about guarantee he'd charge out the a$$ to do it. But we'll get around that..

And I'd like to do everything like you mentioned Curt. But we'll see what becomes of it. I know if my boss stays involved we'll be doing it right, he doesnt like to halfass stuff and isnt afraid to spend a buck to stand out from others..

curtisfarmer
01-31-2010, 12:47 PM
If your local supplier also does installs, that is tuff on competing....but there is always room for 1 more who is just as good or better. He probably doesn't do all the other stuff associated with septic installs like I mentioned, so there is hope. I bet you could find a boom truck in your area to set them or sub out the heavy digging and setting to an excavator to get you going. Around here (which is slightly rural) there are more than a few precast co's around and they are fighting for work. Tell your local guy you would rather use him for everything you can...as long as he can set and not rape you price wise. H e shouldn't worry about you so he should play along. Avg. system around here is from $8-16K for a reasonable contractor and you can pay higher for tyhe guys with brandnew trucks. We also see ALOT of subs out here doing installs/repairs for pumping co's, so talk to them too.

If you can do it right....and eat some jobs to dump into equipment....you could get off the ground and into other things in 1 season or so.:drinkup:

AWJ Services
01-31-2010, 12:48 PM
The tank setting is what is bothering me. But we'll get around that, or find a way around it..

Its bothering me because like I said, the guy that makes the tank in this area also does the installs. I doubt he'd be to happy about setting tanks for competitors. I can about guarantee he'd charge out the a$$ to do it. But we'll get around that..

And I'd like to do everything like you mentioned Curt. But we'll see what becomes of it. I know if my boss stays involved we'll be doing it right, he doesnt like to halfass stuff and isnt afraid to spend a buck to stand out from others..

The tanks are set here with trucks and there are plastic tanks.
Our tanks are cast in 2 peice then glued and I have broke them back into 2 peices to set in the whole with my equipment but a 1000 gallon tank weighs about 7000 pounds whole.

stuvecorp
01-31-2010, 04:41 PM
They set tanks with the truck here. A septic is a 'need' item so is much more important. Our great state here thinks you have to be a rocket scientist to do them.:rolleyes: As for equipment that would be touchy, I would hate to be 'forced' to use something.

tnmtn
01-31-2010, 04:51 PM
Jr.,
i have the septic installer ticket for Tn. it has been a good thing to have. it is tough to break into doing new installs as most contractor these days seems to want to keep the guys they have worked with afloat much more than hire a new guy. thats not the end of the world. last week we finished a repair job. after redigging the drainfield trench it was obvious the line had been crushed and only using about 15' out of the tank. easy fix. reworked some of the crain field for another 30' to make sure it was still good brought in new gravel and pipe and they are back in bussiness. best thing is didn't get dirty. this is typical for the jobs i have gotten and i do them all with a smaller backhoe. i would recommend for the diffrent jobs you are interested in going with a machine similar to L48/jd110. with these you can do many jobs. entry prices are much lower thaan a similarly capable skid steer mini ex combo and you can still tow them behind your truck. they will also work out well for new install. also you can run cheaper 3 point attachments like a bushhog. don't want to start a debate here as much as add an option.
good luck,

Junior M
01-31-2010, 07:24 PM
If your local supplier also does installs, that is tuff on competing....but there is always room for 1 more who is just as good or better. He probably doesn't do all the other stuff associated with septic installs like I mentioned, so there is hope. I bet you could find a boom truck in your area to set them or sub out the heavy digging and setting to an excavator to get you going. Around here (which is slightly rural) there are more than a few precast co's around and they are fighting for work. Tell your local guy you would rather use him for everything you can...as long as he can set and not rape you price wise. H e shouldn't worry about you so he should play along. Avg. system around here is from $8-16K for a reasonable contractor and you can pay higher for tyhe guys with brandnew trucks. We also see ALOT of subs out here doing installs/repairs for pumping co's, so talk to them too.

If you can do it right....and eat some jobs to dump into equipment....you could get off the ground and into other things in 1 season or so.:drinkup:

The thing about systems here, you can install the whole system with a backhoe. They arent near as complicated here as up north.

So if I subbed anything, it'd of course be setting the tank.

The tanks are set here with trucks and there are plastic tanks.
Our tanks are cast in 2 peice then glued and I have broke them back into 2 peices to set in the whole with my equipment but a 1000 gallon tank weighs about 7000 pounds whole.

I've seen guys set tanks with an A frame on the back of a flatbed single axle international, pretty simple set up..

Jr.,
i have the septic installer ticket for Tn. it has been a good thing to have. it is tough to break into doing new installs as most contractor these days seems to want to keep the guys they have worked with afloat much more than hire a new guy. thats not the end of the world. last week we finished a repair job. after redigging the drainfield trench it was obvious the line had been crushed and only using about 15' out of the tank. easy fix. reworked some of the crain field for another 30' to make sure it was still good brought in new gravel and pipe and they are back in bussiness. best thing is didn't get dirty. this is typical for the jobs i have gotten and i do them all with a smaller backhoe. i would recommend for the diffrent jobs you are interested in going with a machine similar to L48/jd110. with these you can do many jobs. entry prices are much lower thaan a similarly capable skid steer mini ex combo and you can still tow them behind your truck. they will also work out well for new install. also you can run cheaper 3 point attachments like a bushhog. don't want to start a debate here as much as add an option.
good luck,

You make a good point, I'll mention it to Dad and keep you updated..

I honestly could careless about what kind of equipment. A backhoe would be cool because I'd like more experience on a backhoe.. But a mini ex would be so much more versatile imo.

flairland
01-31-2010, 10:27 PM
I definitely wouldnt call a mini ex more versatile. A JD 110 is def more versatile, you can do almost anything with one. A mini ex is just more efficient in a smaller range of jobs.

curtisfarmer
02-01-2010, 08:45 AM
The more and more I think about it, this route is WAY more "safe" than the mulching thing which IMO is kinda risky $ wise. This could get you up and running like I said before, for way less$ with a much higher ROI.

You can get a reliable hoe on Craigslist under Erotic Services for like $200.:laugh:

Junior M
02-01-2010, 08:52 AM
The more and more I think about it, this route is WAY more "safe" than the mulching thing which IMO is kinda risky $ wise. This could get you up and running like I said before, for way less$ with a much higher ROI.

You can get a reliable hoe on Craigslist under Erotic Services for like $200.:laugh:
I am not pullin a Ronnie.. :laugh:


Now you know up in Canada any decent hoe is $2,000 or more. The rest are just pure herpes.. And they cant get up the driveways to get to you..


:laugh:

nedly05
02-02-2010, 05:47 AM
I am not pullin a Ronnie.. :laugh:


Now you know up in Canada any decent hoe is $2,000 or more. The rest are just pure herpes.. And they cant get up the driveways to get to you..


:laugh:


And when the go downhill they run out of braking power!!:laugh:

nedly05
02-02-2010, 05:49 AM
I definitely wouldnt call a mini ex more versatile. A JD 110 is def more versatile, you can do almost anything with one. A mini ex is just more efficient in a smaller range of jobs.

I'd rather take a pencil in the eye than run a wheel hoe (not really) But I wont argue that the excavator is not as versatile. You make a good point here.

Junior M
02-02-2010, 06:48 AM
I'd rather take a pencil in the eye than run a wheel hoe (not really) But I wont argue that the excavator is not as versatile. You make a good point here.
maybe I've got a bad definition of versatile.. ;)

jefftb
02-02-2010, 09:51 AM
I marvel at the guys that can be efficient at septic installs with just a backhoe. I know there are some operators that can get the most out of a backhoe but I've never been able to make that work, i.e. running a one machine operation.

Probably just the way I look at jobs though. I truly believe the best way for a job like that is (assuming you have employees) is a mini-ex and SSl/CTL/MTL.

If you are a one man operation then a backhoe makes perfect sense.

We set a lot of concrete tanks, the job we're on right now has a 5,000 gallon tank, 4,000 gallon tank, 1,500 gallon tank, and a 15,000 gallon FRP septic tank.

Here are the tank weights:

5K: 40,000 lbs, 20K per half
4K: 32,000 lbs, 16K per half
1500 Gallon, 20,000 lbs total.

The tank supplier will deliver all of these and set them with their boom truck. They have one of the largest trucks of its kind in the area.

Project is on a slight slope however. This will cause the front end of the boom truck to tip, so we'll do what we've done many times. Chain down the truck off the front to the bucket of a 32,000 lb machine and hold it in place.

Junior, send me a PM with your location, where you want to work and an email. I'll check my SC contacts for info on tanks and market potential.

LawnmastersMikejr
02-02-2010, 10:01 AM
We have a backhoe and it works good if the conditions are right. It doesnt have near as much digging power as the Cat mini ex I've used and isnt quite as fast. It also takes about twice as long to backfill compared to using a skid loader. On the plus side you would only have to buy one machine and spend alot less money.

curtisfarmer
02-02-2010, 11:04 AM
Being an elected member of my town planning board, I see alot of septic designs and how the technology is improving in general. Alot of towns use soil based zoning, using soil type and corresponding perc. rates to dictate lot size, which is WAY old school and is basically growth control. Now, we see alot of Enviro systems where the lot has alot of ledge, set backs, and other issues where a conventional system wouldn't work. The system is set in about a 12X12" area and is a minifiltration system(and reqwuires maintanence contract for approval). There are several new designs for conventional systems too. Another new theme is coupled/ shared systems which can getvrather large.

Septic work is not rocket science and can be profitable when blended into other avenues of dirt work using the same equipment. Very few "septic only" guys up here.

Long story short, up here you almost need a 12 ton excavator to do most syetms you will encounter. This is due to market conditions....you will be pulling the timber and stumps and dealing with boulders/ ledge on most jobs. Down where some of you guys live you probably can do it with a hoe. Use what you have until you can get more:)

Junior M
02-02-2010, 07:09 PM
I marvel at the guys that can be efficient at septic installs with just a backhoe. I know there are some operators that can get the most out of a backhoe but I've never been able to make that work, i.e. running a one machine operation.

Probably just the way I look at jobs though. I truly believe the best way for a job like that is (assuming you have employees) is a mini-ex and SSl/CTL/MTL.

If you are a one man operation then a backhoe makes perfect sense.

We set a lot of concrete tanks, the job we're on right now has a 5,000 gallon tank, 4,000 gallon tank, 1,500 gallon tank, and a 15,000 gallon FRP septic tank.

Here are the tank weights:

5K: 40,000 lbs, 20K per half
4K: 32,000 lbs, 16K per half
1500 Gallon, 20,000 lbs total.

The tank supplier will deliver all of these and set them with their boom truck. They have one of the largest trucks of its kind in the area.

Project is on a slight slope however. This will cause the front end of the boom truck to tip, so we'll do what we've done many times. Chain down the truck off the front to the bucket of a 32,000 lb machine and hold it in place.

Junior, send me a PM with your location, where you want to work and an email. I'll check my SC contacts for info on tanks and market potential.

I dont understand either, I'd love to get to where I could really run a backhoe. But folks that can get everything out of a backhoe are becoming less and less.. So that means I'd have to learn trial by error which can become expensive..

He's exploring another avenue of work, not exactly excavation, but he's suppose to know whats going down by tomorrow, maybe tonight. I dont know.. I'll message you if something isnt going to work with that..

We have a backhoe and it works good if the conditions are right. It doesnt have near as much digging power as the Cat mini ex I've used and isnt quite as fast. It also takes about twice as long to backfill compared to using a skid loader. On the plus side you would only have to buy one machine and spend alot less money.

Not really, I've got a pick up and trailer to move a 5 to 6ton mini ex.

for a backhoe, I'll need a large enough truck and trailer because I am not depending on somebody to move my machine, especially something as little as a backhoe..

Being an elected member of my town planning board, I see alot of septic designs and how the technology is improving in general. Alot of towns use soil based zoning, using soil type and corresponding perc. rates to dictate lot size, which is WAY old school and is basically growth control. Now, we see alot of Enviro systems where the lot has alot of ledge, set backs, and other issues where a conventional system wouldn't work. The system is set in about a 12X12" area and is a minifiltration system(and reqwuires maintanence contract for approval). There are several new designs for conventional systems too. Another new theme is coupled/ shared systems which can getvrather large.

Septic work is not rocket science and can be profitable when blended into other avenues of dirt work using the same equipment. Very few "septic only" guys up here.

Long story short, up here you almost need a 12 ton excavator to do most syetms you will encounter. This is due to market conditions....you will be pulling the timber and stumps and dealing with boulders/ ledge on most jobs. Down where some of you guys live you probably can do it with a hoe. Use what you have until you can get more:)

all the systems for homes are done with a backhoe here..

tnmtn
02-02-2010, 07:38 PM
i've done all the installs and repairs till this last job with a under 5 ton backhoe. it doesn't take 14' of dig depth to dig an under 5' drainfield. i am also able to dig for the tank as well. my machine weighs under 5 tons. many times i feel like i am faster with the smaller hoe than i would have been with a larger one. definitly when space is an issue.
good luck,

Junior M
02-02-2010, 07:44 PM
i've done all the installs and repairs till this last job with a under 5 ton backhoe. it doesn't take 14' of dig depth to dig an under 5' drainfield. i am also able to dig for the tank as well. my machine weighs under 5 tons. many times i feel like i am faster with the smaller hoe than i would have been with a larger one. definitly when space is an issue.
good luck,
The 110 JD was definetly a consideration in my mind if he insisted on a backhoe being the best avenue..

JPsDuramax
02-02-2010, 07:58 PM
Junior,

Here in Georgia, every septic company that I have seen and worked with have a rubber tire. I'm not sure what the thought process is, but apparently it works. Probably has to do with less equipment to maintain and easier to haul one machine vs. two.

As for the 110 JD, there are two for sell on Craigslist here locally, and they are between 19000 and 23000. I hope things work out for you and your dad.

Junior M
02-02-2010, 08:02 PM
Junior,

Here in Georgia, every septic company that I have seen and worked with have a rubber tire. I'm not sure what the thought process is, but apparently it works. Probably has to do with less equipment to maintain and easier to haul one machine vs. two.

As for the 110 JD, there are two for sell on Craigslist here locally, and they are between 19000 and 23000. I hope things work out for you and your dad.
Thats the thing, if the EZflow is allowed, I could get by with just a mini excavator..

Like I said, we'll see what goes down in the next day..

AWJ Services
02-02-2010, 08:29 PM
Jeff are sure about the weights on the Tanks?
Ours here do not weigh that much. Wonder what the difference is.


I have used backhoes and excavators for septic work. They both do the job well but the shear size of a backhoe makes it tough doing repairs on existing systems. I also feel a Excavator is a much more versatile machine for jobs that require digging. A Full size backhow is a massive machine and it's shear size will limit your jobs.

Reach is very important as well. Most tanks are about 60 to 70 inches tall and sometimes they may be 3+ feet deep. So your hole can sometimes be 10 foot deep. The last 2 dosing tanks I set where at my machines limits depth wise. You start digging 5 foot deep trenches and the lack of reach gets aggravating. In my opinion a JD 110/ L48 size hoe would not be ideal for day to day installs but would be great for repairs.


I will also add that I often here people say Septic work is not rocket science but in reality people who say this just do not understand Septic Work. Sure the village idiot can dig the trench but that is not what this industry is. As a matter of fact half my sales calls are for premature failures installed during the building boom. If it was so easy then why do I see so many failures. As a Septic contractor you have to gain a sense of responsibility as your work is designed to last 20+ years.


On a final note I would take all of Jeff's advice. He is very knowledgable and experienced.

Junior M
02-02-2010, 08:56 PM
Jeff are sure about the weights on the Tanks?
Ours here do not weigh that much. Wonder what the difference is.


I have used backhoes and excavators for septic work. They both do the job well but the shear size of a backhoe makes it tough doing repairs on existing systems. I also feel a Excavator is a much more versatile machine for jobs that require digging. A Full size backhow is a massive machine and it's shear size will limit your jobs.

Reach is very important as well. Most tanks are about 60 to 70 inches tall and sometimes they may be 3+ feet deep. So your hole can sometimes be 10 foot deep. The last 2 dosing tanks I set where at my machines limits depth wise. You start digging 5 foot deep trenches and the lack of reach gets aggravating. In my opinion a JD 110/ L48 size hoe would not be ideal for day to day installs but would be great for repairs.


I will also add that I often here people say Septic work is not rocket science but in reality people who say this just do not understand Septic Work. Sure the village idiot can dig the trench but that is not what this industry is. As a matter of fact half my sales calls are for premature failures installed during the building boom. If it was so easy then why do I see so many failures. As a Septic contractor you have to gain a sense of responsibility as your work is designed to last 20+ years.


On a final note I would take all of Jeff's advice. He is very knowledgable and experienced.
I guess I never thought about depth. So far money has been my biggest thought..

its pretty easy to pick out who to take advise from and who not to.. Not saying your not right, but you know what I mean.. Tnmtn also does..

jefftb
02-02-2010, 09:42 PM
Jeff are sure about the weights on the Tanks?
Ours here do not weigh that much. Wonder what the difference is.

On a final note I would take all of Jeff's advice. He is very knowledgable and experienced.

Yep, sure on the tank weights. These are 5,000 psi concrete tanks for those volumes. The 5K tank is 122" outside height, 180" long, 78" wide with lots of rebar and thick walls/lid. I'll email you a PDF if you want. This supplier just went to 8,000 gallons for precast. That's a load. I can point you to a precast supplier in the 40,000 gallon category. The cost is high and the freight worse not to mention the handling prob.

Actually in this case I think your experience is more valuable for repair work and individual residential drainfield work on new installs.....My projects are bigger when you talk about setting a 30,000 gallon septic tank or a 5,000 gallon septic and/or pump tank. Does that make it better or superior?

Nope.

Projects that I target don't roll down the bid list everyday. Mine take longer but you have a far better probability of closing on jobs due to volume and repeat business. I envy that. Our experiences are similar but different.

We both deal with poop. I think you've got a great business setup and are positioned for growth in the South Atlanta market.

BTW-I've made some brief efforts working on a project South of Atlanta, a client/childhood friend of mine asked me to perform due diligence /construction/engineering services on it when it moves. We'll see where it goes when the market turns. It could be big.

AWJ Services
02-02-2010, 11:20 PM
Yep, sure on the tank weights. These are 5,000 psi concrete tanks for those volumes. The 5K tank is 122" outside height, 180" long, 78" wide with lots of rebar and thick walls/lid. I'll email you a PDF if you want. This supplier just went to 8,000 gallons for precast. That's a load. I can point you to a precast supplier in the 40,000 gallon category. The cost is high and the freight worse not to mention the handling prob.

Actually in this case I think your experience is more valuable for repair work and individual residential drainfield work on new installs.....My projects are bigger when you talk about setting a 30,000 gallon septic tank or a 5,000 gallon septic and/or pump tank. Does that make it better or superior?

Nope.

Projects that I target don't roll down the bid list everyday. Mine take longer but you have a far better probability of closing on jobs due to volume and repeat business. I envy that. Our experiences are similar but different.

We both deal with poop. I think you've got a great business setup and are positioned for growth in the South Atlanta market.

BTW-I've made some brief efforts working on a project South of Atlanta, a client/childhood friend of mine asked me to perform due diligence /construction/engineering services on it when it moves. We'll see where it goes when the market turns. It could be big.

Where is it if you do not mind?
You can email me if you like.
Zbates5@gmail.com

curtisfarmer
02-03-2010, 08:21 AM
[QUOTE=AWJ Services;3397592]I will also add that I often here people say Septic work is not rocket science but in reality people who say this just do not understand Septic Work. Sure the village idiot can dig the trench but that is not what this industry is. As a matter of fact half my sales calls are for premature failures installed during the building boom. If it was so easy then why do I see so many failures. As a Septic contractor you have to gain a sense of responsibility as your work is designed to last 20+ years.


Wow, that many failures?? Don't you guys down there have building inspectors? Our systems have to have a state aproved design (with PE stamp & spetic designer stamp) and then have inspections on key steps including materials to be used. Test pits are required, and a soil analysis done as well. I would say the village idiots must control your market:hammerhead:, those failure #s should be no where near that high if its done right to the specifications of the design and inspected.

JR, your relationship with the BIs is paramount....not to let you off for shoddy work, but for the benefit of the doubt and scheduling issues among other handy things.

Junior M
02-03-2010, 08:30 AM
I've been around or involved in the installation of several systems and I've never seen an inspector on the job..

curtisfarmer
02-03-2010, 01:13 PM
Thats too bad...and disappointing knowing these things are not being inspected in some areas. With that much $ being spent....and the replacment cost sometimes being more....someone needs to ensure the quality of the system. And, it keeps the wolves and shiesters at bay knowing your work better pass muster. The guy that does all my trucking is big into spetic and he had a full leach (pipe and stone system) bed rejected cause the washed 1.5" stone had too many fines in it. With large aggregate piles, always ask for the stuff off the sides as that is where there is less fines. Around here, they are even looking at your stone, sand, and all the connections pipe wise too.

Sounds like I could go down south, get myself a hoe on Craigslist and be installing tomorrow:laugh:

AWJ Services
02-03-2010, 05:06 PM
Wow, that many failures?? Don't you guys down there have building inspectors? Our systems have to have a state aproved design (with PE stamp & spetic designer stamp) and then have inspections on key steps including materials to be used. Test pits are required, and a soil analysis done as well. I would say the village idiots must control your market, those failure #s should be no where near that high if its done right to the specifications of the design and inspected.


First you say it's not Rocket science then you post this?

curtisfarmer
02-03-2010, 06:25 PM
Installing and repairing systems is not rocket science....but from the sounds of it (my post about having real regs that prevent exactly what you described AWJ, too many failed systems) it may look like it up here:dizzy:
I am suprised you don't have similiar regulations and safe guards to ensure proper construction of a potential source of pollution. Do you AWJ, I am just curious how its done down there? Some posts sound like there is no code, enforcement, or oversite??? It cannot be.

Septic "skills" require not much more than basic construction and dirt work knowledge and skills. And, JR take note,...it uses many common tools and equipment:clapping: Using a laser, reading plans, paying attention to proper pipe bedding, compaction, site reclamation, drainage,ect. All of these should be readily available skills learned from experience by anyone in the dirt biz. Am I wrong, is it done differently elsewhere? I now we up here are pretty tight about soils and affluent disposal areas.....sounds like the wild west down south......septic next to well heads:laugh:

AWJ Services
02-03-2010, 06:58 PM
Installing and repairing systems is not rocket science....but from the sounds of it (my post about having real regs that prevent exactly what you described AWJ, too many failed systems) it may look like it up here:dizzy:
I am suprised you don't have similiar regulations and safe guards to ensure proper construction of a potential source of pollution. Do you AWJ, I am just curious how its done down there? Some posts sound like there is no code, enforcement, or oversite??? It cannot be.

Septic "skills" require not much more than basic construction and dirt work knowledge and skills. And, JR take note,...it uses many common tools and equipment:clapping: Using a laser, reading plans, paying attention to proper pipe bedding, compaction, site reclamation, drainage,ect. All of these should be readily available skills learned from experience by anyone in the dirt biz. Am I wrong, is it done differently elsewhere? I now we up here are pretty tight about soils and affluent disposal areas.....sounds like the wild west down south......septic next to well heads:laugh:

Sounds like you have plenty of experience installing Septic systems. How long have you been doing them?

curtisfarmer
02-03-2010, 07:04 PM
I don't do installs, only repairs and a whole bunch of "site completions". I do have several friends and neighbors who do only installs and being on the planning board, I see about 120+ designs a year.

AWJ, what is up with the septic situation down there? I asked about regs and common practices. Is there something I left out or you guys do different down there?

AWJ Services
02-03-2010, 07:15 PM
I don't do installs, only repairs and a whole bunch of "site completions". I do have several friends and neighbors who do only installs and being on the planning board, I see about 120+ designs a year.

AWJ, what is up with the septic situation down there? I asked about regs and common practices. Is there something I left out or you guys do different down there?


So you don't do installs.

There where thousands of new systems a month going in here in metro area during the building boom. Thats not counting repairs. How many are installed a month in your area? How many systems do you have in your state. Whats the concentration on your systems per acre. What credentials do your soil scientists have?
Does an engineer design your systems?
Whats a PE stamp?

curtisfarmer
02-03-2010, 07:50 PM
AWJ, too many ?s too fast. I do not know the broad figures you are asking, but I did mention the # going in a small town like mine...so extrapolate that I guess to get a broad idea. We too have had a huge boom, and down in MA where my mom lives....so does the the dreaded Title 5 act which creates crazy hump systems in peoples yards cause the water table is so high. I am talking humps with lolipop vent pipes in the front lawn HIGHER than the 1st floor window. A PE stamp is a prof. engineer with a registered & #ed stamp, a soil scientist is just that, akin to a surveyor, just specific to soil types and wetlands ect. For our Affluent Disposal Area, you need 4K sq' per 2 acres dry delineated upland. Test pits required, with as built if not located properly. This is the zoning requirements for most towns, and the state has the specific soil based rates of perc. and sizing specs for each lot.

What is it like down there, I havn't heard any details from anyone here what its like elsewhere?

jefftb
02-04-2010, 10:58 AM
Where is it if you do not mind?
You can email me if you like.
Zbates5@gmail.com

I'd tell you but I've no idea on the actual location. At this point we are just in a very, very preliminary discussion. He called me to discuss a few things, then called me back about a week later and gave me info to do some preliminary pricing for various bldg densities and assuming the worst GA regs on the drip.