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Qualey
01-09-2010, 07:06 PM
I'm renovating an old 50000sf concrete plant and need to move the water main's entrance in the building to an area that is heated. In a nutshell this building has been added onto several times since the 50s and the main has been built over. We know where it goes under the front of the building (per survey map, city plans and divining sticks) and know where it comes up inside. The area it runs under is a 65'x210' warehouse. I've dug 2 4'x4' holes where we were told to look and nothing (went down nearly 10'). I also dug a trench down the length of the 65' side which should run perpendicular to the main. This is getting old and there has to be a better way. We did try energizing the pipe and scanning the floor (hence the 2 4'x4' holes), but are getting false readings.

Surely someone else has dealt with this before. I'm really on a wild goose chase here and taking up a lot of concrete. ANY suggestions at this point are welcome.

Matt

ksss
01-09-2010, 07:34 PM
[QUOTE=Qualey;3353119]I'm renovating an old 50000sf concrete plant and need to move the water main's entrance in the building to an area that is heated. In a nutshell this building has been added onto several times since the 50s and the main has been built over. We know where it goes under the front of the building (per survey map, city plans and divining sticks) and know where it comes up inside. The area it runs under is a 65'x210' warehouse. I've dug 2 4'x4' holes where we were told to look and nothing (went down nearly 10'). I also dug a trench down the length of the 65' side which should run perpendicular to the main. This is getting old and there has to be a better way. We did try energizing the pipe and scanning the floor (hence the 2 4'x4' holes), but are getting false readings.

Surely someone else has dealt with this before. I'm really on a wild goose chase here and taking up a lot of concrete. ANY suggestions at this point are welcome. Quote"


I have been on similiar bug hunts. Sucks waste of time and money to say nothing of the fact that when you do find it usually its the hard way. I obviously don't know the job, but what about picking up the line where it goes into the building (where you know where the line is at) and dig and lay the water line to where it needs to go in the building?

Building that are old and have been added on a couple times are a challenge, who knows what was done that never made it onto the as built drawings.

AEL
01-09-2010, 07:43 PM
is chasing the pipe a job extra? if so id just keep searching!

AWJ Services
01-10-2010, 01:48 AM
Unhook the pipe at the meter and send a sonde down it.

Qualey
01-10-2010, 08:57 AM
"Unhook the pipe at the meter and send a sonde down it."

That's exactly what I thought we could do at day one, but have been unable to find someone to do it. Would large plumbing outfits have this or supply houses? Its basically a transceiver that follows the pipe, correct?

Unfortunately I own the building so the cost is on me. What you say makes sense KSSS, except I'd have to demolish showroom flooring to locate the infeed plus the fact that the site has a VRAP stipulation and would prefer to avoid exrterior digging if at all possible.

Thanks for the help!
Matt

NEUSWEDE
01-10-2010, 09:59 AM
"Unhook the pipe at the meter and send a sonde down it."

That's exactly what I thought we could do at day one, but have been unable to find someone to do it. Would large plumbing outfits have this or supply houses? Its basically a transceiver that follows the pipe, correct?

Unfortunately I own the building so the cost is on me. What you say makes sense KSSS, except I'd have to demolish showroom flooring to locate the infeed plus the fact that the site has a VRAP stipulation and would prefer to avoid exrterior digging if at all possible.

Thanks for the help!
Matt

I'm down in Portland and I know the plumbing company Richard P Waltz (http://www.richardpwaltz.com/plumbing.html) does but not sure if they will go to bangor. Also try call EJP Plumbing (everett J prescot) http://www.ejprescott.com/locations.php, looks like they have a place in Bangor, they won't do it but they sell equipment and supplies so might know someone who does do it.

Worth a try but not sure but Ted Berry Construction (http://www.tedberrycompany.com/) they do a lot of cleaning and inspection and location of water and sewer.

Worse case I'll come dig around for you!

Good luck.

Qualey
01-10-2010, 10:33 AM
Neuswede

EJP is the company that energized the pipe to try to detect the signal and trace its course and depth. So far 0 for 2 which really has them baffled. I'll ask them if they can recommend someone with a Sonde. If this is a scope, I'm just wondering if its long enough given the buildings length.

Matt

NEUSWEDE
01-10-2010, 11:13 AM
Neuswede

EJP is the company that energized the pipe to try to detect the signal and trace its course and depth. So far 0 for 2 which really has them baffled. I'll ask them if they can recommend someone with a Sonde. If this is a scope, I'm just wondering if its long enough given the buildings length.

Matt

Good company to deal with. Do you know how big the main is? Is it active or not? Try ted berry he does a lot of work for municplaities and would pretty sure would have the proper equipment or know who would. Might be able to get a private party locate service there are a couple around here like Dig ME.

Also thinking off prior experiences of mine how sure are you that it really goes under that floor and doesn't snake around the building or go some totally random line?

curtisfarmer
01-10-2010, 01:35 PM
Ground penetrating radar........that 1 picture may be worth it. Who knows what is down there, where it is, or other unknowns. I have seen towns around here use it for cemetery layouts and as builts. But, I don't know where to get one:cry:

AWJ Services
01-10-2010, 01:54 PM
Neuswede

EJP is the company that energized the pipe to try to detect the signal and trace its course and depth. So far 0 for 2 which really has them baffled. I'll ask them if they can recommend someone with a Sonde. If this is a scope, I'm just wondering if its long enough given the buildings length.

Matt

A sonde is a transmitter that you send down the pipe and locate it with a reciever.

How did they hook to the pipe?

bobcatuser
01-10-2010, 02:43 PM
You could try using a steel fish tape with a locater. Itís basically the same principle as locating a gas line trace wire. The only down side is you will need to open the main to fish the tape through.

If you can push the steel tape in far enough, just get a locate company to come out. One clamp for the ground rod one clamp on the fish tape and they can tell you location and approximate depth.

ksss
01-10-2010, 02:51 PM
OK how about one of those ground radar scanners you see advertised in the dirt mags? Likely could Google it and see if you can find one in your area.

AWJ Services
01-10-2010, 05:09 PM
You could try using a steel fish tape with a locater. Itís basically the same principle as locating a gas line trace wire. The only down side is you will need to open the main to fish the tape through.

If you can push the steel tape in far enough, just get a locate company to come out. One clamp for the ground rod one clamp on the fish tape and they can tell you location and approximate depth.

The sonde actually hooks to something like a fistape.

Sometimes if the water main is metal it can cause issues by just hooking to it or using a metal tape unless you have a really good Locator with multiple frequencies.

Qualey
01-10-2010, 05:34 PM
Locater was grounded to the 2" main itself. Not the best method, but quite typical the tech told me. I'm going to pursue the Sonde here in town as well as the ground radar. Hopefully the local tech college might know of one and be able to use it here for "training".

Dirt Digger2
01-10-2010, 05:50 PM
how much of the main has to be relocated?...if most of the floor has to be ripped up anyway why not just start digging where you know the main is at one end and just follow the pipe all the way through the warehouse?

AWJ Services
01-10-2010, 06:18 PM
Locater was grounded to the 2" main itself. Not the best method, but quite typical the tech told me. I'm going to pursue the Sonde here in town as well as the ground radar. Hopefully the local tech college might know of one and be able to use it here for "training".

That is the problem. The signal will just bleed into the ground and skew the readings.

These are magnetic locators and work well on metal water pipes.

http://www.schonstedt.com/index.cfm?page=GA-72Cd

bobcatuser
01-10-2010, 11:25 PM
"Unhook the pipe at the meter and send a sonde down it."

That's exactly what I thought we could do at day one, but have been unable to find someone to do it. Would large plumbing outfits have this or supply houses? Its basically a transceiver that follows the pipe, correct?


Acklands Granger sells them. You can get them in different configurations like pipe camera mounted, toilet flushable, push rod mounted, steel fish tape or pull back with a piece of fishing line.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4GB21?Pid=search

I have a basic understanding of how locate/transmitters work. Successful locating comes with experience, trial and error.

If the pipe is metal try attaching one alligator clip to the pipe directly at the meter. Attach a copper wire to the (metal) pipe inside the building somewhere, run the wire back to the Transmitter and attach to the other alligator clip. Use a higher frequency like 200-512kHz. This method completes the circuit and eliminates problems like poor conductivity in sandy soils.

The higher frequency will travel through poor conductors better but it can also bleed off into other lines or rebar causing miss locates. So start with the lower frequency.

1idejim
01-13-2010, 07:56 PM
Acklands Granger sells them. You can get them in different configurations like pipe camera mounted, toilet flushable, push rod mounted, steel fish tape or pull back with a piece of fishing line.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4GB21?Pid=search

I have a basic understanding of how locate/transmitters work. Successful locating comes with experience, trial and error.

If the pipe is metal try attaching one alligator clip to the pipe directly at the meter. Attach a copper wire to the (metal) pipe inside the building somewhere, run the wire back to the Transmitter and attach to the other alligator clip. Use a higher frequency like 200-512kHz. This method completes the circuit and eliminates problems like poor conductivity in sandy soils.

The higher frequency will travel through poor conductors better but it can also bleed off into other lines or rebar causing miss locates. So start with the lower frequency.

bobcat, you cannot ground to the building. the way all locators work is with an earth ground.

i locate on a daily basis doing both, utility locates and irrigation locates (wire paths and valves).

i have a number of locators, both passive and direct contact. the fishtape is a reliable method for locating non metallic pipe, i personally have a golfball with a hole drilled part way through it, i then insert the end of the fishtape into the golfball and tape it in place. (this keeps the fishtape from hanging up on the fittings)

lately i tested some portable electric fence string with the metal weave and it works with my tr4110 but not the other rigs.

if i were doing the locate i would open both ends of the line and suck a pull string through the pipe to pull 1/8th inch vinyl coated aircraft cable through with. i like the aircraft cable (it's strong and fairly cheap) as it's a good insulated conductor.

you guys can see some of the gear i use on my cp.

bobcat, you don't realize how many people make the same mistake about the earth ground, i've been doing this for about 10 yrs on a no find no pay basis, never not been paid.

btw i do a lot of hot work with my bc320 so i have to be accurate.

i can be reached by pm and am very willing to help.

bobcatuser
01-13-2010, 10:11 PM
bobcat, you cannot ground to the building. the way all locators work is with an earth ground.

bobcat, you don't realize how many people make the same mistake about the earth ground, i've been doing this for about 10 yrs on a no find no pay basis, never not been paid.

btw i do a lot of hot work with my bc320 so i have to be accurate.

i can be reached by pm and am very willing to help.

I wasn't recommending grounding to the building. My method was to direct connect to the pipe on one end and ground on the far end with a copper wire acting as a jumper wire returning to the transmitter (ground). This method eliminates problems with a poor ground such as sandy soil (bad conductor) or a metal pipe with a plastic sleeve (insulator).

I assumed the pipe was metal because the OP said they had tried to "ground the main itself"

It sounds like they had a poor ground from what was described. The better the ground, the stronger the signal. Assuming the pipe is a good conductor (all metal with no insulators. plastic or rubber gaskets) jumping the ground will eliminate problems with the earth ground.

I have tried this with a Ridgid and 3M dynatel locator/transmitters and it works.

Locater was grounded to the 2" main itself. Not the best method, but quite typical the tech told me. I'm going to pursue the Sonde here in town as well as the ground radar. Hopefully the local tech college might know of one and be able to use it here for "training".

1idejim
01-14-2010, 05:10 PM
I wasn't recommending grounding to the building. My method was to direct connect to the pipe on one end and ground on the far end with a copper wire acting as a jumper wire returning to the transmitter (ground). This method eliminates problems with a poor ground such as sandy soil (bad conductor) or a metal pipe with a plastic sleeve (insulator).

I assumed the pipe was metal because the OP said they had tried to "ground the main itself"

It sounds like they had a poor ground from what was described. The better the ground, the stronger the signal. Assuming the pipe is a good conductor (all metal with no insulators. plastic or rubber gaskets) jumping the ground will eliminate problems with the earth ground.

I have tried this with a Ridgid and 3M dynatel locator/transmitters and it works.

bobcat, i'm gonna try this method soon as i can. i will be interested to see what happens. i've been shown a lot of different ways to locate pipes and wires.

my good friend rick fimea was a locator for the phone company here and has shown me plenty of tricks, i also have come up with a few. at times a plastic pipe can be located by filling the pipe with water and inserting the hot leg of the machine into the pipe, grounding to earth and a high percentage of the time you'll get a path.

i've also introduced the time domain reflectometer to irrigation ( 5 years of research ) giving the operator a footage measurement to broken wires and to under ground valves.

i'm kinda excited to find out if your method will work for me and will post the results in this thread.

you're right about the freq's low for distance, high for penetration.

bobcatuser
01-14-2010, 07:51 PM
Have you ever tried energizing the water in the pipe with a flooded Tel. duct? I think energizing the water would work to locate the stub.

What is the time domain refectometer all about?

bobcat, i'm gonna try this method soon as i can. i will be interested to see what happens. i've been shown a lot of different ways to locate pipes and wires.

my good friend rick fimea was a locator for the phone company here and has shown me plenty of tricks, i also have come up with a few. at times a plastic pipe can be located by filling the pipe with water and inserting the hot leg of the machine into the pipe, grounding to earth and a high percentage of the time you'll get a path.

i've also introduced the time domain reflectometer to irrigation ( 5 years of research ) giving the operator a footage measurement to broken wires and to under ground valves.

i'm kinda excited to find out if your method will work for me and will post the results in this thread.

you're right about the freq's low for distance, high for penetration.

bearmtnmartin
01-16-2010, 01:30 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but what kind of pipe is it? If there is a cast iron section, you need a fairly low frequency to get a positive signal. I do a fair bit of locating, and I use a flushable transmitter taped onto a fish tape. They only seem to be good for about 10 feet of depth, which is plenty in our area. Mains are generally 3 to 4 feet. If you use a camera, then even if you can't find the sonde in the camera head you will at least be able to see all the elbows and get a pretty good idea where it is going. I have a color push camera that gives a not bad picture in a pipe full of clean water. Another suggestion is an audio locator. They use a microphone and a headphone to pick up the sound of the rushing water. I just used one a month ago to find a leaking main under a mall plaza. I nailed the leak exactly, and it was 5 feet down under bricks and asphalt.

1idejim
01-16-2010, 07:34 PM
bobcat,

tried the jump wire with my tr-4110 (i carry this locator with me at all times) the tone i got was a very wide 20 foot path. hooked back to earth ground and was able to narrow the path down to peak pinpoint. i'll try it again photo the trial with all of my locators and post the results. i can tell you that the tone was louder though with the jumper wire, but i think that was part of the problem.

as for the TDR, they have been in use since WW2 to detect wire taps. there are numerous TDR's out there for everything from checking the length of wire on a coil to soil moisture sensing.

i use a tripplet TDR, $200.00. on a de-energized cable or wire pair you can get the length of wire or cable which helps identify wire paths. if you're receiving RF bleed or shallow line congestion it helps to know how long the path you should be tracing is.

the TDR uses the Volocity of Propagation of the wire or cable and a signal transmitted at the speed of light to give a pretty accurate measurement in either feet or meters.

i've used this to map out underground irrigation systems for the last 5 yrs.

there have been a lot of times that i've used the TDR to measure the lengths of wires and cables after installation for billing, more accurate, more money.

btw, the tr-4110 is no longer made but there are a ton of them on ebay or at auctions. mine was $100.00 brand new in box 10 yrs. ago on ebay, i use it all the time, can work on it myself and it fits under the truck seat.

1idejim
01-16-2010, 07:49 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but what kind of pipe is it? If there is a cast iron section, you need a fairly low frequency to get a positive signal. I do a fair bit of locating, and I use a flushable transmitter taped onto a fish tape. They only seem to be good for about 10 feet of depth, which is plenty in our area. Mains are generally 3 to 4 feet. If you use a camera, then even if you can't find the sonde in the camera head you will at least be able to see all the elbows and get a pretty good idea where it is going. I have a color push camera that gives a not bad picture in a pipe full of clean water. Another suggestion is an audio locator. They use a microphone and a headphone to pick up the sound of the rushing water. I just used one a month ago to find a leaking main under a mall plaza. I nailed the leak exactly, and it was 5 feet down under bricks and asphalt.

your camera has a place to connect a trace wire to it also, doesn't it? if not taping it right behind the head has helped me.

i've never used a sonde of any type, i have enough locators that i can't justify buying another right now, would like the sonde for septic tanks though.

as far as the accoustical leak detectors go i use a fisher xlt-16, i add air to an empty line for locating leaks in pool lines quite often. nice hearing someone else finds leaks. pm me if you want to discuss leaks i'm pretty well set with equipment but can never pass up the chance to learn a trick

bearmtnmartin
01-16-2010, 09:16 PM
Here is a link to the sondes I use.

http://www.prototek.net/Flushables.html

They are as you will see, dead cheap, and they work quite well, although I have trouble getting a good depth reading with my old RD400. The company will rebattery them for a 5 dollar credit if you send them back, but I learned years ago that I can cut them open and replace the watch batteries and glue them back together. I get a couple years out of them easy before moisture kills them. I have lots to learn in the locating business, but over the years I have bumbled my way into being able to do a not bad job!

bobcatuser
01-16-2010, 10:45 PM
Good call on the cast iron, I don't work with it much. What type of camera do you have? I should buy one for selling drain tile jobs.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but what kind of pipe is it? If there is a cast iron section, you need a fairly low frequency to get a positive signal. I do a fair bit of locating, and I use a flushable transmitter taped onto a fish tape. They only seem to be good for about 10 feet of depth, which is plenty in our area. Mains are generally 3 to 4 feet. If you use a camera, then even if you can't find the sonde in the camera head you will at least be able to see all the elbows and get a pretty good idea where it is going. I have a color push camera that gives a not bad picture in a pipe full of clean water. Another suggestion is an audio locator. They use a microphone and a headphone to pick up the sound of the rushing water. I just used one a month ago to find a leaking main under a mall plaza. I nailed the leak exactly, and it was 5 feet down under bricks and asphalt.

bobcatuser
01-16-2010, 11:10 PM
I would only use the jumper wire if there was a ground problem with the conductor (target). It's worth a try.

I had a look at the TDR on Tripletts site. I can see how it would be a handy tool for irrigation work.

bobcat,

tried the jump wire with my tr-4110 (i carry this locator with me at all times) the tone i got was a very wide 20 foot path. hooked back to earth ground and was able to narrow the path down to peak pinpoint. i'll try it again photo the trial with all of my locators and post the results. i can tell you that the tone was louder though with the jumper wire, but i think that was part of the problem.

as for the TDR, they have been in use since WW2 to detect wire taps. there are numerous TDR's out there for everything from checking the length of wire on a coil to soil moisture sensing.

i use a tripplet TDR, $200.00. on a de-energized cable or wire pair you can get the length of wire or cable which helps identify wire paths. if you're receiving RF bleed or shallow line congestion it helps to know how long the path you should be tracing is.

the TDR uses the Volocity of Propagation of the wire or cable and a signal transmitted at the speed of light to give a pretty accurate measurement in either feet or meters.

i've used this to map out underground irrigation systems for the last 5 yrs.

there have been a lot of times that i've used the TDR to measure the lengths of wires and cables after installation for billing, more accurate, more money.

btw, the tr-4110 is no longer made but there are a ton of them on ebay or at auctions. mine was $100.00 brand new in box 10 yrs. ago on ebay, i use it all the time, can work on it myself and it fits under the truck seat.

1idejim
01-17-2010, 04:15 PM
Here is a link to the sondes I use.

http://www.prototek.net/Flushables.html

They are as you will see, dead cheap, and they work quite well, although I have trouble getting a good depth reading with my old RD400. The company will rebattery them for a 5 dollar credit if you send them back, but I learned years ago that I can cut them open and replace the watch batteries and glue them back together. I get a couple years out of them easy before moisture kills them. I have lots to learn in the locating business, but over the years I have bumbled my way into being able to do a not bad job!

thanks for the link, they're much more affordable than the other sources i had. i'll order one in the future for the tank locates i do, right now i use a fishtape with the end inserted into a golf ball (never gets caught on fittings, works great) and my tr-4110.

which plug and accessory supplier co. do you use for your leak detection work and what kind of amplifier do you use? like i've stated i use a fisher xlt-16, had it quite a while and am going to be looking for a new unit before long.

bearmtnmartin
01-17-2010, 07:26 PM
Actually, I have pretty rudimentary equipment. I have an old anolog Radio Detection RD 400 and my camera. Someone asked earlier what it is and its a Vivax Vcam. It has a few frequencies, but because my locator has only 512 and one other and the disposable sondes are 512, thats what I do all my locating at. I mostly locate my own stuff, which is mostly drainfield components. The audio detector isn't mine. Its an older Fisher that I can steal when I need it.

1idejim
01-17-2010, 08:01 PM
Actually, I have pretty rudimentary equipment. I have an old anolog Radio Detection RD 400 and my camera. Someone asked earlier what it is and its a Vivax Vcam. It has a few frequencies, but because my locator has only 512 and one other and the disposable sondes are 512, thats what I do all my locating at. I mostly locate my own stuff, which is mostly drainfield components. The audio detector isn't mine. Its an older Fisher that I can steal when I need it.

i've got the xlt-16 and an sono-scope for leaks along with a bunch of plugs and induction stuff and pressure gauges.

for locating i have the tr-4110, a tempo 521, a magna wand, a pro-tech 600 and a dynatel 573D with the A-frame.

on top of all that stuff i have a multitude of test tools from the TDR to fluke meters and thermometers.

at one time i thought i was going big, locating here, people have really tightened up this last year, but i still get a lot of work when it's going.

the actually have two inspection cameras but only like one of them, i let friends use the other one.

i have more equipment than you would think one guy could use but, if one doesn't work i've got another that will. i've never gotten skunked on a job.

bearmtnmartin
01-19-2010, 05:50 PM
i've got the xlt-16 and an sono-scope for leaks along with a bunch of plugs and induction stuff and pressure gauges.

for locating i have the tr-4110, a tempo 521, a magna wand, a pro-tech 600 and a dynatel 573D with the A-frame.

on top of all that stuff i have a multitude of test tools from the TDR to fluke meters and thermometers.

at one time i thought i was going big, locating here, people have really tightened up this last year, but i still get a lot of work when it's going.

the actually have two inspection cameras but only like one of them, i let friends use the other one.

i have more equipment than you would think one guy could use but, if one doesn't work i've got another that will. i've never gotten skunked on a job.

What do you charge for locates? There is really no one around here who does it. I am too busy to get into it, but its fun finding stuff, especially after some clown has gone in with a 220 and destroyed the place and found nothing. I usually charge $250.00, but half the time its for friends and I end up doing it for beer or something. Mostly its for my own jobs and my own peace of mind, and I don't advertise that I do it. I have my eye on GPR for down the road when its cheaper.

1idejim
01-20-2010, 01:42 PM
What do you charge for locates? There is really no one around here who does it. I am too busy to get into it, but its fun finding stuff, especially after some clown has gone in with a 220 and destroyed the place and found nothing. I usually charge $250.00, but half the time its for friends and I end up doing it for beer or something. Mostly its for my own jobs and my own peace of mind, and I don't advertise that I do it. I have my eye on GPR for down the road when its cheaper.

$200.00 for a locate, $300.00 for a leak; it's normally bad to post prices but in this case we contractors who provide these services are few and far between and i post prices and pic's trying to drive the prices up and encourage the performance/pay issue.

i also do a lot of freebee's, right now it's pouring and has been raining almost non-stop since saturday and i have to locate a septic tank, d.b. and field lines. my dad set the job up for the noon hour so i gotta go.

thanks again for the tip on the sondes, i'll buy 1 and try it with my dynatel.

pm me anytime, i'm interested in what you're doing up north. :)