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LetThereBeeLight
01-10-2010, 08:26 PM
Have you guys had to lower your selling prices to get jobs this year? Here on the east coast it\\\\\\\'s been slow. Not many projects and a lot of competition. How are you faring?

RLI Electric
01-10-2010, 10:24 PM
I haven't dropped prices yet, although I am not doing anything with the frozen ground right now. Where on the east coast are you?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-10-2010, 11:25 PM
I would advise you to do a lot of other things before you lower your prices. There are many many strategies to winning jobs in highly competitive market conditions. Lowering your prices would be one of the very last things I would do.

Try offering "free" upgrades.

Try including "free" control solutions

Introduce the concept of actually being paid for your design, specification and procurement time. Then if you need a bargaining chip you can discount these fees away.

Introduce free one (or two) year service agreements with every new installation.

The list of ideas could go on for a long time. Bottom line is to do more, offer more and make your clients understand that they are getting more with you at your current price than the competition is offering.

If you do choose to lower your prices be aware that you will be pulling the entire market down with you and making your return to normal prices that much harder in the future. A race to the bottom. The next thing you know you will be reducing the quality and cost of your components in order to salvage your profitability. It is a vicious spiral.

emby
01-11-2010, 12:20 AM
I would advise you to do a lot of other things before you lower your prices. There are many many strategies to winning jobs in highly competitive market conditions. Lowering your prices would be one of the very last things I would do.

Try offering "free" upgrades.

Try including "free" control solutions

Introduce the concept of actually being paid for your design, specification and procurement time. Then if you need a bargaining chip you can discount these fees away.

Introduce free one (or two) year service agreements with every new installation.

The list of ideas could go on for a long time. Bottom line is to do more, offer more and make your clients understand that they are getting more with you at your current price than the competition is offering.

If you do choose to lower your prices be aware that you will be pulling the entire market down with you and making your return to normal prices that much harder in the future. A race to the bottom. The next thing you know you will be reducing the quality and cost of your components in order to salvage your profitability. It is a vicious spiral.

AWSOME ADVICE JAMES ! ! !

Ken

extlights
01-11-2010, 01:14 AM
I'm not so sure that we've really dropped our prices, however over the past couple of years I'd say that we were able to be more competitive with the "cheaper" guys. Once reason is that we're able to do business cheaper.

We've worked really hard to eliminate huge overhead costs ( Trucks payed for, credit cards at zero balances, business loan and shop payed off) and by doing that we've been able to make it quite easily without any struggles in this down economy.

David Gretzmier
01-11-2010, 01:56 AM
I am thinking of ways to be available to more folks and let more people know I am out there. I have had tons of people still tell me that they did not know someone does what I do. I plan to advertise more in 2010, one to create awareness of a need, and 2, to be in front of folks more so when they make that decision I am the brand they think of.

Stephen M.
01-11-2010, 02:20 AM
It is possible to "drop your price" and make more per hour by quoting a job price.

One of my employees was sick, so I became the substitute worker on the route in November. As we were finishing one of the accounts, a neighbor lady asked me what I would charge per hour to dig out some mugo pines so her 85 year old husband wouldn't do it. I said $35/man hour and she thought it too high, and "would you reconsider the price"? I said that the lowest I could go was $30/man hour.

I looked at the job and quoted $240 labor + $60 for disposal, or $300 + tax and that would include disposal of the debris. The quote was accepted. (the disposal site is free, but I charge what I would have to pay at the County site.)

A few days later, my 2 employees loaded the debris plus more than what I saw when pricing the work and dug out the mugo pine stumps. On site, it was $50/man hour. but with disposal figured in, it dropped to $40/man hour gross.

Not bad for "dropping" my per hour price! I just loaded the back end of the deal to cover my self just in case it took my employee longer than he aticipated.

Alan B
01-11-2010, 11:11 AM
Have you guys had to lower your selling prices to get jobs this year? Here on the east coast it\\\\\\\'s been slow. Not many projects and a lot of competition. How are you faring?
Every area is different, but my customers have been very successful in this competitive time using one specific technique-- offering far superior materials (solid cat brass, heavy fixtures with higher grade components) for equal or less than their competitors are offering aluminum.

By actually putting one of our products into the customers hand, they can see and feel the difference. They immediately know they are getting a high quality product and it negates much of the pressure to match competitors pricing.

Lastly if your competitors or you already offer brass, buying from us cuts most contractors supply costs in about half which either gives them higher margins or gives them the flexibility to match a price easily if they have to.

Although this has been said, it can not be repeated enough-- never sell a job by the fixture. This is the number I come across in contractor marketing. Don't let the customer lead the negotiation, design or fixture choice. Establish yourself as a professional, show them the quality of 2 of your fixtures and let them know you will be giving them a professional result. I you have to provide options give packages: e.g. X for the works (the whole yard), Y for for the front and partial sides, and Z for a little as possible to get a pro result but never mention fixture price. Let them know you will put in what is necessary to do it right.


Sincerely,

Alan

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-11-2010, 11:30 AM
-- never sell a job by the fixture. This is the number I come across in contractor marketing. Don't let the customer lead the negotiation, design or fixture choice. Establish yourself as a professional, show them the quality of 2 of your fixtures and let them know you will be giving them a professional result. I you have to provide options give packages: e.g. X for the works (the whole yard), Y for for the front and partial sides, and Z for a little as possible to get a pro result but never mention fixture price. Let them know you will put in what is necessary to do it right.

I agree with this 100%.

I have never been a fan of per fixture pricing. I compare per fixture pricing with a carpentry contractor pricing a deck out by the board. There is so much more that goes into a professional lighting system than most people would understand or acknowledge, done right they are complex systems worth much more than the sum of their parts. Pricing by the fixture affixes little to no value to your experience, skill, craftsmanship, design abilities, operation expenses and other system compenents. Per fixture pricing may seem like a quick and simple pricing strategy, which is fine if you are installing quick and simple lighting systems I guess, but when you get into pro-grade systems, the per fixture route will quickly have you racing to the bottom.

steveparrott
01-11-2010, 01:28 PM
I agree with all this good advice, especially about maintaining high standards with regard to quality of products and service.

A couple excellent articles on the subject (overcoming price objections):

http://trustedadvisor.com/cgreen.articles/55/What-to-Say-When-the-Client-Says-Your-Price-is-Too-High

http://trustedadvisor.com/cgreen.articles/51/Discounting-Price-Value-and-Psychology

emby
01-11-2010, 02:03 PM
I agree with all this good advice, especially about maintaining high standards with regard to quality of products and service.

A couple excellent articles on the subject (overcoming price objections):

http://trustedadvisor.com/cgreen.articles/55/What-to-Say-When-the-Client-Says-Your-Price-is-Too-High

http://trustedadvisor.com/cgreen.articles/51/Discounting-Price-Value-and-Psychology

Nice Information Steve ! This is a very good read.

Ken

Lite4
01-11-2010, 11:15 PM
Those are some very good articles. Thanks for posting them.

David Gretzmier
01-12-2010, 12:43 AM
Good reads on the links ! understanding the psychology behind why folks think price is too high is a large step towards closing more sales.

I get huge sticker shock looks from clients on Christmas Lights. The 4 thought processes folks are going though helps me understand the different things they are thinking, and how to ask the right questions.

It was Ron Popeil who invented the Ronco rotisserie "Set it and Forget it". He had the chance to get on a boardwalk booth and sell a vegetable machine he had never used or sold. He sold twice what the average salesman did. when asked how and why, his answer was simple- "I know how to ask for the money."

knowing HOW to ask folks for thier business/money is HUGE.

I had a client this year that absolutely balked at a $5400 Christmas Light install bid. "That is way more than I wanted to spend ! " they said. I took a chance and asked what they felt was reasonable for what I had presented and what would be in their budget. They said that they really wanted to keep it under 5k. I gave them a free 500 buck wreath for this year only, with the option to buy it next year for the full price. They probably will, and I got a $4900 customer because I asked the tough questions. Although I discounted them the cost for me to buy the wreath and my cost to pay my guy to put it up, in the end I am much happier having a client.

I also did a deal this January, giving a customer the chance to pay me the other half of his Landscape light cost in 6 months, if he would do phase 1 and 2 now, rather than just pay me in full to do phase 1 now. It is much easier for me to install all the wire and fixtures once than twice, and although I am out the cost of my material and labor now, I get a larger sale and spend a bit less on labor for doing both phases at once. I gave up some cash flow and took a risk, but I love to close a sale and get work on the board in January.

David Gretzmier
01-12-2010, 01:12 AM
I think griffin makes some good points. you can make money by charging higher prices, and you can make money by watching your costs on what you spend for materials. just don't compromise quality while seeking lower material costs.

we have all heard you get what you pay for, but I gotta tell you, there are costs in many fixtures that have nothing to do with the quality of the fixture. the cost of advertising and building a brand, the cost of a direct sales force, or sales reps that go and sell to distributors all over the country. The cost of packaging, warehousing, and the different levels of management as a company grows and grows.

Then there is the cost of a quality light when you go to china and buy it right from a factory that makes quality lights. hear me here folks- not a cheap light, but a good socket, good brass, that same group of plants in China where a lot of all those other name brands go and buy the very similar lights. I've bought direct from china on a few Christmas items, and then sold them to customers. I have an agents number and customs importer ID from the good ole US government. When purchased in quantity, many times I can offer a much better product and make more profit while pricing similar install prices because my competitors buy thier product from franchises or distributors.

The internet makes it possible for me to do this, as it makes it possible for griffin and many others to sell their product to others. It is not for everyone, but I will tell you this- 99% of clients want two very important things. They want the effect, and they want that fixture that provides the effect to work all the time. You may sell more jobs from the very nice literature and catalogs you get from companies, and I do as well in many cases.

But take a hard look at how the company you buy from is structured. If they have a large sales staff and headquarters, If they have tons of marketing material, If they give away trips and prizes, If they carry gigantic amounts of inventory that gets dusty in the warehouse, ask yourself where all that money comes from to pay for that stuff- The answer is YOU.

for me, give me a great quality fixture and trans, ship it to me quick in the quantity I need, and only spend money on making the product in stock and making the quality better and last longer.

steveparrott
01-12-2010, 01:54 PM
David,

As you know, I represent a quality manufacturer and cringe when I hear you promoting the direct-buy-from-China route. There are so many reasons why I object to your reasoning. Let me list a few:

1. Good manufacturers bring a lot of value to the table, including warranties, training, technical support, just-in-time delivery, R & D, and reputation.

2. While many contractors believe that manufacturers make huge profits, in actuality the margins of most are very tight - in the supply chain of manufacturer, distributor, and contractor, it is the contractor who makes the biggest profit. This is especially true when the contractor installs the highest quality brands. Trying to save a few dollars on fixtures so you can low-ball your competitors is not a winning long-term strategy. Nurturing a strong and mutually supportive mfg./dist./contractor team is a winning and profitable strategy.

3. Most (if not all) direct to market Chinese fixtures are not UL listed. It is clearly irresponsible for contractors to install fixtures that are not UL listed. UL listing is an expensive proposition that only good manufacturers are willing to bear.

4. Most direct to market Chinese fixtures are rip-offs of established manufacturer's designs - an unethical (and sometimes illegal) practice that hurts the companies who invested in the original R & D. Contractors who buy these rip-offs are party to the damage.

5. Rip-off fixtures may seem to be equal in quality to the authentic versions, but in many cases they use inferior components. You also have no assurance that the fixture you order will have the same components each time you order. The Chinese companies may simply replace a component with a lesser quality one - it happens all the time. It has also been brought to my attention that some brass fixtures from China are not actually brass. Quality control is a hugely important, you have no assurance that an overseas company will offer you consistent quality.

Classic Lighting
01-12-2010, 04:30 PM
Wow, this certainly has become a hot debate.

While I am committed to companies such as Unique and Cast, I have recently noticed potential customers asking for the cheaper, China knock-off products. I walked away from several customers beacuse of this. I refuse to install sub-par products in order to get a job.

emby
01-12-2010, 09:49 PM
I think James summed it up in his first post on this thread. Read it with some thought as he is correct in every way.
Steve, I just loved those two links you posted as I have read them at least three times. Great stuff. Thanks again.

Ken

maxwilbryan
01-14-2010, 12:45 PM
Thanks for those threads Steve. Im learning a lot from all of you guys.

Mark B
01-14-2010, 09:24 PM
The mods are at work.

BrandonV
01-14-2010, 09:26 PM
funny you should say that I just posted in both the alliance forum and unique one... says it'll have to be reviewed first. might have to take my questions to the irrigation forum... our last vestige of free speech.

indylights
01-15-2010, 12:31 AM
Not a lot of respect for anyone associated with censoring this thread. Unreal. Can someone pm me or give me a hint why this thread has been abused the way it has?

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

emby
01-15-2010, 12:52 AM
Deleted replies in threads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To Whom it may concern,
I have used this forum for over a year now and have found it to be very useful in providing us apprentices with a wealth of information. The lighting professionals that contribute and offer thier suggestions to us apprentices are so very important to expand our knowledge base. This will ensure that the trade will continue in the proper ways.
I love having the ability to engage questions with some of the sponsors (manufacturers) that are within the lighting forums and they are always helpful in answering those questions.
With that being said, you must understand that somebody will find something wrong or something they do not like in a product and they should be able to express those thoughts and findings on this forum without having them deleted. In allowing the people to express those thoughts we as a group learn from that and that includes the installers and sponsors (manufacturers). I personally do not like that one of my replies has been deleted as to eliminate any sign of tampering. Its not right and you are hurting us the apprentices who want to learn about installing not selling products.

Ken Martin
Copper Expressions Landscape Lighting and Design

David Gretzmier
01-15-2010, 01:59 AM
a long post, I'd like to respond to steve on a few points-

1- Although I like the fact that "manufacturers" may bring things to the table, do I use them? I have used quite a bit of warranty work on trans, especially nightscaping, but the reality is the more you do warranty work with a manu, the more you realize it breaks. I gravitate toards the manu's or brands that need very little repair.

and let's be honest here about warranty and R&d on lights. the number one failure point is the socket. and that is always repaired in the field by me. I have replaced maybe 10 sockets in 5 years out of thousands of lights installed over a 15 year span. I've had 3 knuckles break/strip in the same time frame. fixed by me. every other problem was caused by it being broken by something running over it or being hit, etc.

while I appreciate manu's offering training, most of the time it creates competitors for me. Fx's training class at ewing irrigation brings 20 new guys to the table every year who think they can do landscape lighting after 4 hours training and a free lunch. It serves one purpose- FX sells more stuff.

and for the record, I am sick of calling someone a manufacturer that has someone else build it for them and ship it to them for them to sell. That is a distributor. The manufacturer is the company who owns the building and manufacturing equipment where it was made.

Technical support 95% of the time consists of folks telling you to send it back or replace the unit.

R&D has essentially been subbed out to engineers in china. "Here's what we want, figure out how to make it" and really, 95% of the fixtures out there that are sold are 4 things- a good mr-16 bullet, hat path, wall wash, deck puck. how much R&D do you need to spend?

reputation? please- who had the best reputation 10 years ago? where are they now?

2-like everything else made in the US, people that sell Landscape lights in US began shifting the manufacturing overhead expense to China a decade plus ago. They got to enjoy less capitalization costs, less labor costs, lower material costs, lower printing costs and cardboard costs for packaging, and in exchange they had to pay more to ship them here in containers. Yet, the prices from most mainline folks did not go down. I don't know where your margins are, but I know this- If you sell a product that is identical to an internet company, and they sell it for half that and they make money, you better continue working on how you convice your customers what a great value your light is.

I have sold and continue to offer nightscaping, FX, copper moon, etc. I am not afraid of name brands. less than one out of 25 of my customers have ever heard of them. They don't care. They are buying me, not you. They are buying the effect, not the fixture, or the trans, or the wire. If the effect lasts and they do not call me, they don't care where it was made, how it was made, or who made it. my reputation is built upon the fact I have stood behind everything I have ever sold or installed. What matters to me is does the item work for 20 years? and is it heavy and attactive enough to sell the job initially? If yes, then I find the item that is the easiest and least expensive to create the effect.

I do not low ball, in fact I am the 2nd highest bidder here for landscape lighting and the highest bidder in most instances. I merely wish to find the highest quality products at the lowest price.

3- I do not buy landscape product direct from china, so I'll have to take your word on the UL thing. I do know that all 120v Christmas light product I have bought has had the UL label, and I know that most of the Internet distributors have UL listings on thier china lights and trans. But just so you know, I have never had a customer ask me if my lights were UL listed. or the trans, or anything. landscape light folks did not really even talk about UL listing until 4 or 5 years ago. Folks jost bought heavy trans and lights and went with it.

4. While I do not want to encourage unethical behaviour, I look at some lights and wonder how hard it can be to design a light.

look at a bullet. brass, adjustable shroud, glass lens ( some convex and some flat) , silicone o-ring, adjustable knuckle, sealed 1/2 thead, heavy plastic stake, ceramic socket with stainless clips. some lights don't have all this, in the past they did not, most do. finishes can vary. I am sure there are cheap and expensive sockets.

path light- 1/2-3/4 inch tube, 1/2" threaded bottom, plastic stake, ceramic socket, glass lens ( or not), hat. some have an adjustable hat, or a bigger hat. not too much design there.

I suppose you could argue that someone stole all these ideas and they copy, but, really, if they were so unique you could patent them. Then you could do something about it legally.

Otherwise you are stuck in flat screen TV land- If they all look the same, then which one you going to buy? try to bear in mind that Vizeo ain't cheating by buying LCD panels from China. Just because that same building made RCA's panels. or samsungs, or whatever. And folks will only pay so much to get that Sony name. If it looks the same, and the other one is cheaper... what do you think reasonable people are going to do?

5- I guess I will have to disagree with you. I have installed many hundreds of fixtures from china over the past 5 years, because most main manu's and internet companies get them there now. and the quality is better than the ones I installed 15 years ago that were made in the US by Nightscaping. anybody remember? bullets sealed with cork? open ended copper tubes shaped like a spike? replacing 1141 bulbs that were just bare, open in all those tulip lights? how many times have you cleaned the lenses on the inside of old black footliters? how many sockets replaced? If anything, China has advanced the quality of lights, rather than give it a black eye.

klcjustin
01-15-2010, 02:35 AM
I would advise you to do a lot of other things before you lower your prices. There are many many strategies to winning jobs in highly competitive market conditions. Lowering your prices would be one of the very last things I would do.

Try offering "free" upgrades.

Try including "free" control solutions

Introduce the concept of actually being paid for your design, specification and procurement time. Then if you need a bargaining chip you can discount these fees away.

Introduce free one (or two) year service agreements with every new installation.

The list of ideas could go on for a long time. Bottom line is to do more, offer more and make your clients understand that they are getting more with you at your current price than the competition is offering.

If you do choose to lower your prices be aware that you will be pulling the entire market down with you and making your return to normal prices that much harder in the future. A race to the bottom. The next thing you know you will be reducing the quality and cost of your components in order to salvage your profitability. It is a vicious spiral.

Very Good Advice James. Never lower your standards to compete with fly by nighters!! Hold strong, sell your service not your price, educate the homeowner and you will be here for years to come.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-15-2010, 09:44 AM
Not a lot of respect for anyone associated with censoring this thread. Unreal. Can someone pm me or give me a hint why this thread has been abused the way it has?

Scott Maloney
Sunflower Landscapes

Hey Scott... welcome to the weird and wacky world of Lawnsite censorship and editing.

There was a flurry of this type of thing about 1.5 to 2 years ago here. Post that the administrators or sponsors thought were 'inappropriate' were cut or removed. Then things seemed to have calmed down some.

My guess is that the sponsor Landscape Lighting World felt a little threatened by the content of this thread and the questions that were posed and asked the administrators to cut the posts out. I am quite certain that the sponsors do not have editorial control over the open forum but they certainly have influence.

The shame of it all is that the questions that were posed were not all that controversial nor inflammatory. We have certainly dealt with more controversial discourse here in the past. I would be nice if everyone just chilled out a bit and allowed us the opportunity to share an open debate and discussion.

Regards

Alan B
01-15-2010, 01:33 PM
My guess is that the sponsor Landscape Lighting World felt a little threatened by the content of this thread

Regards

I think its time I answer the rampant (yet understandable) speculation.

I understand the frustration from people whose posts were deleted by lawnsite, as I too have been in your exact shoes and had posts deleted. Before we were sponsors, over a year ago I was doing research to find out contractor input for potential new fixture designs and many of my posts were deleted. It is frustrating, especially when they are legitimate questions.


I wanted to respond and inform, and in no way felt threatened. I have a very compelling answers to any and all the questions. In fact some provide they an excellent segway into describing exactly why I am in this business. However as hard as it was to restrain, I knew it would be a poor decision in the long run for three reasons:

1. I saw that I had initiated a dialog that could lead to conflict between sponsors. Although sponsors cannot moderate or delete, I emailed the moderators to let them know about the potential conflict that could result. That, and that only, is the reason the moderators have been watching this thread. I did not and cannot delete messages, nor made any requests for add’l edits. I can see why you may take it personally, but I made the request not because of your questions directed at me, but because I did not want to open a dialog that may lead to a battle between sponsors, or even negative talk about the established industry. I'll let the natural course of the free market instigate changes.
2. I should show the benefits of our products/model in a positive way without bringing criticism to established manufacturers—my post was brash and not well thought out (and should be deleted). They all serve a market and provide a value. In this forum, in that dialog, that just would not be possible.
3. I did not comment to any of the responses, because of the aforementioned and because scrutiny now would be premature. Our products (and even the way they are marketed) are an interim line until we are ready for our real release.

I probably should not have even posted this response as it may just lead to more dialog.

By March 1, we will set up our own sponsor forum below so we can post information about us in a more appropriate venue. Additionally I would be happy to answer any questions. I truly appreciate the dialog and the opportunity to answer questions, but the forum would not be an appropriate place for me to be discussing it--it would lead to too many battles. I would be happy to answer any questions. Give me a call or email me.

I wish I could say more, but for now that's it.:)

Sincerely,

Alan

indylights
01-15-2010, 04:41 PM
So after you turned a thread about something totally different into an infomercial for your products, once someone asks a question about you possibly talking out of both sides of your mouth, you email the moderators and tell them to monitor the thread. Weak. Instead, why didn't you email them asking to delete your response because, except for a sentence or two, it had nothing to do with the topic.

David Gretzmier
01-15-2010, 08:12 PM
I guess I missed all the hubub and deleted posts, I guess folks got a little passionate about china stuff. lets get back on topic- what are ways to get business in this climate and keep your margins etc.

some things I have been doing are breaking bids into several phases. even though the customer does not ask for it, I will do uplighting the home phase 1. I will then add paths or tree lighting as phase 2. the back yard becomes
phase 3 or 3 and 4, etc.

by breaking a 12000 job into 4 chunks, or a 6000 into 2, or whatever, folks can choose to spend less money, get some of what they want, and you can have a job rather than nothing.

JoeyD
01-18-2010, 01:14 PM
David,

As you know, I represent a quality manufacturer and cringe when I hear you promoting the direct-buy-from-China route. There are so many reasons why I object to your reasoning. Let me list a few:

1. Good manufacturers bring a lot of value to the table, including warranties, training, technical support, just-in-time delivery, R & D, and reputation.

2. While many contractors believe that manufacturers make huge profits, in actuality the margins of most are very tight - in the supply chain of manufacturer, distributor, and contractor, it is the contractor who makes the biggest profit. This is especially true when the contractor installs the highest quality brands. Trying to save a few dollars on fixtures so you can low-ball your competitors is not a winning long-term strategy. Nurturing a strong and mutually supportive mfg./dist./contractor team is a winning and profitable strategy.

3. Most (if not all) direct to market Chinese fixtures are not UL listed. It is clearly irresponsible for contractors to install fixtures that are not UL listed. UL listing is an expensive proposition that only good manufacturers are willing to bear.

4. Most direct to market Chinese fixtures are rip-offs of established manufacturer's designs - an unethical (and sometimes illegal) practice that hurts the companies who invested in the original R & D. Contractors who buy these rip-offs are party to the damage.

5. Rip-off fixtures may seem to be equal in quality to the authentic versions, but in many cases they use inferior components. You also have no assurance that the fixture you order will have the same components each time you order. The Chinese companies may simply replace a component with a lesser quality one - it happens all the time. It has also been brought to my attention that some brass fixtures from China are not actually brass. Quality control is a hugely important, you have no assurance that an overseas company will offer you consistent quality.


Great post Steve! Couldn't have said it any better!

JoeyD
01-18-2010, 01:16 PM
funny you should say that I just posted in both the alliance forum and unique one... says it'll have to be reviewed first. might have to take my questions to the irrigation forum... our last vestige of free speech.

In those private forums it just gives us the ability to approve or dissaprove posts. It is only so we can control the content in our "sponsord" forum. Thats all. I know I have no ability to moderate in any of the pulic forums.

JoeyD
01-18-2010, 01:28 PM
At the end of the day when this china crap comes up I just let it go. People see the value in our products, our R&D, design, support, marketing, and industry participation and that is why so many companies have come a long trying to duplicate what we started. We have patents but they are very very expensive to enforce. The best thing we can do is worry about us and continue to make the knock offs and coat tailers play catch up.

BTW Brandon your post has been approved! I just got to it.