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View Full Version : Theoretical company restructuring question....


Ozz
01-18-2010, 01:41 PM
If you ran a company that did clearing,some treework, utilities, excavation, demo... and you needed to restructure your buisness and had this equipment,which would you sell/change if you had to?


Case 580,590 (4k hrs,paid for)

BC S220 (1000 hrs)

Takkie 150 (2500 hrs,paid for)

Volvo 145 (2k hrs) (paid off.)

Takkie 138 (500hrs)

BC T320 (1500hrs) (dedicated mowing machine)

Botie L48 (paid for)

Cat 906H (50 hrs on it.)



Anyway,what would you do?

bobcat_ron
01-18-2010, 02:18 PM
4/8 machines are paid for, what more do you want??????
No sense having a big ancy business with thousands of dollars worth of payments going off you account every month, if they are half paid off and they don't break down, keep them, any thing you do is profit.

AWJ Services
01-18-2010, 02:42 PM
It depends on your work. You obviously purchased the equipment at one time or another because you needed it so what is sitting and what are you using?

If you do sale something you may need it later down the road so keep that in mind.

Might sale one of the Backhoes since you have 3.
Maybe the S220 could go since you have Backhoes and wheelloaders.
The TL150 will not bring much money with those hours.

I agree with Ron on keeping whats paid for.

hvy 1ton
01-18-2010, 03:33 PM
If you ran a company that did clearing,some treework, utilities, excavation, demo... and you needed to restructure your buisness and had this equipment,which would you sell/change if you had to?


Case 580,590 (4k hrs,paid for)

BC S220 (1000 hrs)

Takkie 150 (2500 hrs,paid for)

Volvo 145 (2k hrs) (paid off.)

Takkie 138 (500hrs)

BC T320 (1500hrs) (dedicated mowing machine)

Botie L48 (paid for)

Cat 906H (50 hrs on it.)



Anyway,what would you do?

The two things i could see you dropping are the S220 and the L48. Unless you use the S220 a lot, say as a dedicated demo machine i don't see where i does anything your other machines can't. Depending on whether you still use your L48 a lot or maybe have jobs where it is the only thing that will work i'd look at selling it off too. Out of curiosity what direction are looking to head equipment wise?

Ozz
01-18-2010, 03:56 PM
The two things i could see you dropping are the S220 and the L48. Unless you use the S220 a lot, say as a dedicated demo machine i don't see where i does anything your other machines can't. Depending on whether you still use your L48 a lot or maybe have jobs where it is the only thing that will work i'd look at selling it off too. Out of curiosity what direction are looking to head equipment wise?

I'd like to go more towords pipe work right now. This is kinda an ongoing project I'm continuing should I take a buisness class like 320D did... (it ain't real folks..) Bigger, if possible but not huge to where i Sc&ew myself if I can't make payments.
Okay, so I'm dropping the 220,and 580. I'm afraid if I lose my small equipment and grading and pipe goes down, I'd at least be able to fall back onto landscaping,creek band stabilization etc, where you need smaller equipment. Where do I go now? 235? 290? 360? and a loader to be able to pick bigger pipe?

stuvecorp
01-18-2010, 05:25 PM
Going off what equipment I see the pipe guys here, they have like 400/480 size hoes and 3/4 yard wheel loaders. The bigger ones have just about every size from a mini to crazy big.

I would dump the TLB's, trade the 906 for a 3 yard wheel loader and maybe get a bigger excavator? You would probably need a decent sized dozer in there also. I like idea of the Bobcat 220 size with the Tak 150 and 138, that should give you a good mix for smaller stuff.

nedly05
01-18-2010, 05:46 PM
Is the volvo 145 the short radius version of the 140? Could you trade the small cat loader and one of the case hoes toward a nice gently used 3 yard loader? Is the 145 big enough to be productive on pipe jobs? Depending on the digging I would think it could, the downfall is the reach. I would think judging from what pipe work i have seen, if you had a 225 size excavator and a 3-4 yard loader you would be in good shape. Keep the little stuff though.

Scag48
01-18-2010, 07:24 PM
What kind of pipe work? We do a lot of our drainage work with a 25 ton hoe, reduced tail preferrably. This stuff isn't too deep, typically no more than 10-15 feet. Once we start getting down deeper than that, it's nice to have a 30-35 ton hoe for dragging bigger boxes and it's a little easier to go deeper with a bigger hoe. A 3 yard loader is the standard around here for keeping up with a 25-30 ton hoe, 4 yard for 30-35, 5 yard for any hoe 40 tons and larger.

Ozz
01-18-2010, 07:30 PM
Is the volvo 145 the short radius version of the 140? Could you trade the small cat loader and one of the case hoes toward a nice gently used 3 yard loader? Is the 145 big enough to be productive on pipe jobs? Depending on the digging I would think it could, the downfall is the reach. I would think judging from what pipe work i have seen, if you had a 225 size excavator and a 3-4 yard loader you would be in good shape. Keep the little stuff though.

Yes,the 145 is a 14-15 ton (depends on how its set up) ZTS machine... I doubt with a 1 yd bucket, I doubt I'd be able to beep pace with a bigger guy and his 300 size. Depth would screw me too with a 145 vs 290/300/360 size hoes.

Stuve, I couldn't get rid of the TLB due to water company jobs.
And my ops could probably go from 140 ZTS to 290/300/360 size but a 140 to 450 size would give me nothing in between my smaller, less that 20 ton hoes,skids etc and 50 ton excavator. That's a 35 ton diff between excavators.
It would give me nothing to do work with 30 and 36" pipe where,in my opinion a 15 ton ZTS would be too small and 50 ton too big. I think a 360 could dig for up to 48" but not pick and set it.

stuvecorp
01-18-2010, 07:45 PM
Sorry, I just don't give love to TLB's.:)

I know the one company has a couple 235 Kobelcos and have seen them out on street/pipe projects, another one has a 225 Hitachi also. Other than a bigger excavator and wheel loader you're close.

Lazer_Z
01-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Yes,the 145 is a 14-15 ton (depends on how its set up) ZTS machine... I doubt with a 1 yd bucket, I doubt I'd be able to beep pace with a bigger guy and his 300 size. Depth would screw me too with a 145 vs 290/300/360 size hoes.

Stuve, I couldn't get rid of the TLB due to water company jobs.
And my ops could probably go from 140 ZTS to 290/300/360 size but a 140 to 450 size would give me nothing in between my smaller, less that 20 ton hoes,skids etc and 50 ton excavator. That's a 35 ton diff between excavators.
It would give me nothing to do work with 30 and 36" pipe where,in my opinion a 15 ton ZTS would be too small and 50 ton too big. I think a 360 could dig for up to 48" but not pick and set it.Maybe I'm missing something, but then again maybe not. Why don't you think a 360 size hoe could pick and place 48" pipe? I've seen a Hitachi 450 dig for then pick and place 60" oval concrete pipe.

Ozz
01-18-2010, 07:51 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but then again maybe not. Why don't you think a 360 size hoe could pick and place 48" pipe? I've seen a Hitachi 450 dig for then pick and place 60" oval concrete pipe.

I've tried to pick 36" steel pipe in a 10' section with a 130 size and it couldn't even barely get it off the ground..
Then a 30' setion on a 360 size would barely be able be able to pick it would it?

Scag48
01-18-2010, 07:54 PM
You're on the right track. Sounds like you're in the ballpark with what size hoe you need for the pipe work you plan to do. A 50 ton hoe, unless you're doing very heavy lifting or super deep digging, is probably too much hoe for most pipe work. With that said, sometimes a hoe of that size is needed. Our PC600 is setup for pipe, we also have a PC800 that spent 8 months digging at 35-40' depths. For the majority of sewer, water, and storm systems, a 30-35 ton hoe is a pretty safe bet. Keep your 14 tonner and throw a hoepack on it. A 950 size loader would be enough to keep up with that size hoe shuttling pipe and stoking the box.

Ozz
01-18-2010, 09:25 PM
You're on the right track. Sounds like you're in the ballpark with what size hoe you need for the pipe work you plan to do. A 50 ton hoe, unless you're doing very heavy lifting or super deep digging, is probably too much hoe for most pipe work. With that said, sometimes a hoe of that size is needed. Our PC600 is setup for pipe, we also have a PC800 that spent 8 months digging at 35-40' depths. For the majority of sewer, water, and storm systems, a 30-35 ton hoe is a pretty safe bet. Keep your 14 tonner and throw a hoepack on it. A 950 size loader would be enough to keep up with that size hoe shuttling pipe and stoking the box.
Ok, that's for pipe. Most of the other stuff a 953 would work better. should I try street pads on a 953? I'm just thinking of the clearing and grading end.

Scag48
01-18-2010, 09:35 PM
I don't see the need for street pads on a 953 if you're running in dirt. Clearing and grading can be accomplished with a 953, although that isn't my cup of tea. What kind of grading? I just don't see a track loader doing a better job of grading than a dozer.

hvy 1ton
01-19-2010, 01:38 AM
Well, as soon as you said utilites and pipework was the direction you were headed i was out of my depth, but talking about track loaders brought it back some. If running pipe for new construction, subdivisions and such a track loader would be a good option. Burnout runs a 973 backfilling utilites for Sureway up in Canada, you can check it out on youtube or the other forum that JR dislikes.

If your running on improved surfaces i don't see putting street pads on as a good alternative to a wheel loader. Just get a 950A or something along those lines for pipe work. The cost of a HPCU rebuild for 953 alone should scare you away from using a track loader where a wheel loader will be just as productive. Add in the cost of undercarriage and the idea gets a little nuts. Again, putting in brand new utilities is where a Hi-lift will shine and would make sense, but it doesn't sound like that is the work you are looking at.

I think selling one of the TLB's, if you don't have the work for 2, buying a older 950, putting a quick coupler on, putting a hoepac on the 145, and renting a large hoe for a couple of jobs wouldn't be a bad idea. You can try a couple of different sized machines and decide what works best for you. You might be able to work out a rent to own agreement with a dealership and put the rent toward a down payment on a machine. Plus, it sounds like your unsure of the amount of work you can lock down for these machines. If the work dries up there is minimal backlash on your company. You have a loader you can sell for what you spent or just keep it. Wheel loaders are handy beasts to have on hand. Another consider is both of those machines are far and way bigger than your current stable, one way or another it won't be cheap to mobilize them. Again, utility work is pretty much outside my knowledgebase so if i'm missing something point it out.

nedly05
01-19-2010, 05:47 AM
Yes,the 145 is a 14-15 ton (depends on how its set up) ZTS machine... I doubt with a 1 yd bucket, I doubt I'd be able to beep pace with a bigger guy and his 300 size. Depth would screw me too with a 145 vs 290/300/360 size hoes.

Stuve, I couldn't get rid of the TLB due to water company jobs.
And my ops could probably go from 140 ZTS to 290/300/360 size but a 140 to 450 size would give me nothing in between my smaller, less that 20 ton hoes,skids etc and 50 ton excavator. That's a 35 ton diff between excavators.
It would give me nothing to do work with 30 and 36" pipe where,in my opinion a 15 ton ZTS would be too small and 50 ton too big. I think a 360 could dig for up to 48" but not pick and set it.


I doubt the 145 will dig with a 300. I wouldnt be surprised if it would dig with a 225 though. Our 8 ton will keep up with our 14 ton in the right conditions, but once the going gets tough forget it. When you start talking about 35 to machines and 36" pipe its way out of my league.

Ozz
01-19-2010, 05:59 PM
I don't see the need for street pads on a 953 if you're running in dirt. Clearing and grading can be accomplished with a 953, although that isn't my cup of tea. What kind of grading? I just don't see a track loader doing a better job of grading than a dozer.

Pretty much bulk dirt work, ponds etc. I know Ben talks about getting an entire sit done in a day wth a 43/53.

HVY- I know about burnout. A 973(like a 50 ton machine) would be stepping way too far up to not have anything in the middle. I'd consider getting rid of the 906 and 580, (should get decent money for the 906 b/c it has 50 hrs),pick up a 43/53,and then an older 950.

Nedly, I agree. the biggest thing I've ever ran was a 320C... I do doubt that a 145 would dig with a 300. I stated that. I'd like a 30,70/80,200 and 300 steup like ron's bro has. BUT, I'd be neck deep on payments and if I didn't have jobs I'd get screwed.

bobcat_ron
01-19-2010, 06:20 PM
Pretty much bulk dirt work, ponds etc. I know Ben talks about getting an entire sit done in a day wth a 43/53.

HVY- I know about burnout. A 973(like a 50 ton machine) would be stepping way too far up to not have anything in the middle. I'd consider getting rid of the 906 and 580, (should get decent money for the 906 b/c it has 50 hrs),pick up a 43/53,and then an older 950.

Nedly, I agree. the biggest thing I've ever ran was a 320C... I do doubt that a 145 would dig with a 300. I stated that. I'd like a 30,70/80,200 and 300 steup like ron's bro has. BUT, I'd be neck deep on payments and if I didn't have jobs I'd get screwed.

Look for low hour fairly new repo machines, that's the story behind my bro's 290.
He's paying $2000 less per month because it was a lease return.

hvy 1ton
01-20-2010, 02:00 AM
Sorry for being unclear, i wasn't trying to say you should get a 73. They are not exactly what you could call cheap to own. I was just saying that pipe work in undevloped areas is one the area a hilift will shine. I was going to suggest a 963B figuring that the 145 weighs around 40Klbs but it tops out around 30Klbs. So, figuring your setup to haul not much more than 17 tons a 953B would be a good choice, unless you need a 943 sized machine. Whatever you do stay away from 939's, real trackloaders have the engine in the back. :laugh: I really like the B's because of the tilt cab like the D's and couple other good reasons i can't come up with right now. Another good reason to pick B's there a lot cheaper than a C let alone a D series.

One other thing i've been meaning to say, i'd hate to eat the depreciation on a machine with 50 hrs on it. Unless you got it for a song your gonna eat it in the current depressed and flooded market of lease returns and repos.

Ozz
01-20-2010, 04:16 PM
Sorry for being unclear, i wasn't trying to say you should get a 73. They are not exactly what you could call cheap to own. I was just saying that pipe work in undevloped areas is one the area a hilift will shine. I was going to suggest a 963B figuring that the 145 weighs around 40Klbs but it tops out around 30Klbs. So, figuring your setup to haul not much more than 17 tons a 953B would be a good choice, unless you need a 943 sized machine. Whatever you do stay away from 939's, real trackloaders have the engine in the back. :laugh: I really like the B's because of the tilt cab like the D's and couple other good reasons i can't come up with right now. Another good reason to pick B's there a lot cheaper than a C let alone a D series.

One other thing i've been meaning to say, i'd hate to eat the depreciation on a machine with 50 hrs on it. Unless you got it for a song your gonna eat it in the current depressed and flooded market of lease returns and repos.

The 906 would go to a farm guy I know who know I won't screw him out of his money like a salesperson... In undeveoped areas, a track machine shines beacause it has it's traction on hills. I've ran enough of them in different areas to know that. Generally, When I do pipe, I don't grade to the pipe. It would cost too much and take too much time to cut through a hill with a 14 ton hoe. With the 360, dozer grousers will go on when woking in undeveloped areas. (60% of the time I'd do work with a 360.) Also, what bucket size when I do grading with a 300/360? 2 yd? 3 yd? I generally don't do finish grading for the 1/2 acre subdivision plots. If id did, I'd have a D5. I do site prep tho.