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irrig8r
01-21-2010, 04:17 PM
Responding to two posts from the AOLP thread....


Posted by Tanek Hood
I am pumped for someone to show me the benefit of an LED fixture vs. LED lamp.

Posted by James Solecki
I am 'pumped' to hear such a case too, but so far nobody has been able to convince me or prove to me that there is a benefit to an LED fixture over an LED Lamp!

If someone out there can make a case, please start a new thread here, I for one would welcome the discourse.
__________________


The best arguments for LED fixtures, IMHO, are those that I heard from Sherman Gingerella at DG Lights (http://dglights.com/) a couple of years ago, and they both had to do with dispersing heat for extended life:

1. Isolating the driver from the heat of the lamp by using an external driver.
2. Using fixture materials that act as natural heat sinks (machined billet aluminum, copper and brass), not insulators (composites).

Somehow, Kichler, Vista and FX Luminaire seem to have missed these points in their 2nd (or is it 3rd?) generation designs.

And I can't imagine a way to isolate the driver in a retrofit situation.

S&MLL
01-21-2010, 05:08 PM
So far I have used 2 mr16 retrofits. And James's bi pin retrofit.

And I would much rather use Kichlers LEDs any day of the week.


1. Kichlers led spots are compact and not that bad looking. (I know most think they are ugly)
2. Kichler honors their 15 year warrantee, and for me makes It an easy choice. My local distributor has a field destroy warrantee. No waiting no paperwork.
3. Kichlers LEDs are readily available locally for me.
4. Its also nice having a 50watt comparable fixture compared to all the retrofits out there.
5. James the bipin retrofit you have is DIM. I mean like at night it is almost invisible. (Did I get a bad batch)
6. Cost wise Kichlers integrated cost me about 15 percent more then retrofitting does.
7. Pathlights from Kichler on the other hand are expensive. But put out a very nice light spread. Almost a little to white.
8.Imho Retrofit lamps have their purpose. I use them on problem fixtures. Where its just easier to throw in a retrofit then it is to rewire a system that I didn’t install. Not having to worry about 11.5 volts is very nice.



Alright rip me apart

Mataman
01-21-2010, 08:00 PM
So far I have used 2 mr16 retrofits. And James's bi pin retrofit.

And I would much rather use Kichlers LEDs any day of the week.


1. Kichlers led spots are compact and not that bad looking. (I know most think they are ugly)
2. Kichler honors their 15 year warrantee, and for me makes It an easy choice. My local distributor has a field destroy warrantee. No waiting no paperwork.
3. Kichlers LEDs are readily available locally for me.
4. Its also nice having a 50watt comparable fixture compared to all the retrofits out there.
5. James the bipin retrofit you have is DIM. I mean like at night it is almost invisible. (Did I get a bad batch)
6. Cost wise Kichlers integrated cost me about 15 percent more then retrofitting does.
7. Pathlights from Kichler on the other hand are expensive. But put out a very nice light spread. Almost a little to white.
8.Imho Retrofit lamps have their purpose. I use them on problem fixtures. Where its just easier to throw in a retrofit then it is to rewire a system that I didnít install. Not having to worry about 11.5 volts is very nice.



Alright rip me apart

Kichler is giving me fits about #2

trailboss
01-21-2010, 08:44 PM
Whats the problem? Is it Kichler or the distributor?:confused:

S&MLL
01-21-2010, 09:54 PM
Whats the problem? Is it Kichler or the distributor?:confused:


Trailboss makes a good point. Have you Talked to Kichler regarding your issues?

The Lighting Geek
01-22-2010, 12:18 AM
I like the Kichler LED and is the only solution for 35 watt and 50 watt applications so far. 15 year warranty makes it an easy choice. If you can't pay for the lamp in savings before the warranty runs out, you probably won't sell it to the masses, especially in this economy. Being GREEN isn't enough, it must pay for itself in energy savings. In CA where an average custom home pays .38 a kilowatt hour, it is a no brainer.

I don't understand the people who are hung up on the appearance. If we as lighting designers do our job, what the fixture looks like doesn't matter, you probably won't see it.

I do see however some applications for LED retrofits in tree down lighting, where you might realize savings in other ways.

I have over 1000 Kichler LED units in the field and have had no real issues.

S&MLL
01-22-2010, 12:38 AM
Tommy Did I see you on another show?


House crashers maybe, same concept as landscape just indoors?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 01:00 AM
The best arguments for LED fixtures, IMHO, are those that I heard from Sherman Gingerella at DG Lights (http://dglights.com/) a couple of years ago, and they both had to do with dispersing heat for extended life:

1. Isolating the driver from the heat of the lamp by using an external driver.
2. Using fixture materials that act as natural heat sinks (machined billet aluminum, copper and brass), not insulators (composites).

And I can't imagine a way to isolate the driver in a retrofit situation.

If I may:

1. This was an issue up until we figured out how to beat the heat. Acceptable junction temperature ratings of the new generation HB LED Chips has increased dramatically. Also, I have built a proprietary driver that is a stepped, fully solid state IC design. This lowered junction temperatures even further... to the point that I can make a 240Lm MR16 lamp operate at only 31 Degrees Celsius!

2: Again, shedding the heat was / is a huge issue, depending on the design of the LED lamp/fixture. I still receive samples that are operating at or very near the upper recommended junction temperatures. If you can't stand to touch it or if it is uncomfortable to hold in you hand with a tight grasp, it is generally operating too hot. The effect of high junction temperatures (over time) is that the Lumens will depreciate at an accelerated rate and there is a risk of colour shift/fade as the phosphors on the chips deteriorate.

3: The drivers in the lamps that I make are fully isolated from the chips. - The chips are adhered to a finned aluminum heat sink that has nearly 300% the surface area of cast style heat sinks. The base of this heat sink is solid aluminum. The driver does not come into contact with the heat sink and is fully potted in epoxy in the base of the lamp.

LED fixtures continue to be developed and improved upon. Some companies are making great strides with them and they certainly serve a purpose, especially in new installations. Watch for features such as accessory optics/lenses, replaceable drivers and components. Also I would insist on IP65 or better ratings on all LED fixtures. If they haven't been IP rated then I wouldn't put my money there. Moisture is a huge issue with LED. As for completely sealed LED fixtures... well don't get me started!!! What a dumb idea, from start to finish.

Two of the strongest benefits of using LED lamps are: You can easily update your existing systems and you can continue to use the tested and proven fixtures that you have relied upon for years. No need to re-invent the wheel.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 01:10 AM
So far I have used 2 mr16 retrofits. And James's bi pin retrofit.

5. James the bipin retrofit you have is DIM. I mean like at night it is almost invisible. (Did I get a bad batch)

The G4 BiPin LED Lamp that I manufacture produces just under 150 Lumens at 2700K. This makes it equivalent to what would be a 13 Watt Xenon Bi-Pin Lamp. A lot of people buy these expecting them to be as bright as a 20W Halogen (230Lm).

I am working on an omni-directional version of this lamp that would use a very new and innovative heat sink concept. The big issue with creating high brightness, miniature LED lamps is of course the heat.

I use the G4 BiPin LED Lamp for small flood applications, fill in lighting (removing shadows) and for some pathlighting applications where there is some ambient light from moonlighting. They are also excellent for detail work in and around water features, stone outcroppings, and garden structures/sculptures.

As LED chip manufacturers achieve greater output and efficiency, and as acceptable junction temperatures increase, you will see brighter miniature LED lamps available. I have a T5 Wedge, SCB, and G5.3 Bi-Pin in development now.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 01:17 AM
I like the Kichler LED and is the only solution for 35 watt and 50 watt applications so far.

Not so fast my friend! There are new 340-400 Lumen, 3000K, LED MR16 lamps on the market right now. I have a very wild new 340+ Lumen LED MR16 lamp just going into production. This will be equivalent to a 35W Halogen MR16 and just like my last lamp will be the coolest operating in the market.

I have several 340+ Lumen LED Lamps here and although they do meet the heat specifications of the Chips when installed in an open environment, the tend to get too hot for my tastes when installed in an enclosed fixture. This is why I have had a couple of wizzards come up with something that has not been seen in the market yet.

As for 50W halogen equivalent LED Lamps, yes they exist now too, but you have to sacrifice colour temperature a bit, moving to 4000K to get the output. This will change rapidly as the newest generation of chips become available in warmer colours.

Exciting times.

The Lighting Geek
01-22-2010, 11:17 AM
Tommy Did I see you on another show?


House crashers maybe, same concept as landscape just indoors?

yes, i did an episode on House Crashers with Josh Temple. I am shooting an episode of Turf Wars in a couple of weeks and it should be a blast. 2 houses in competition, 2 contractors and neighbors are the judges. Ahmad Hassan is the referee...lol

RLDesign
01-22-2010, 11:33 AM
Tommy,

Thanks for the info on Kichler LED. I have never moved toward their company because a majority of what I remove is their product (fixture only). I am open to anything that will benefit my client. I think control systems and LED have a huge place in our market in the upcoming year. I am with James that I think the LED lamp will be a big advantage to us designers who are confident with our line of fixtures, or when a tree or detail changes the lamp can be changed as well. The modifiability has to come around on LED fixtures for me to be there as well. When a leyland cypress grows 10 feet in 2 years - the lamp option on LED is better for my company. And for downlights, it is a no brainer. I also have not had one client that could stomach the LED fixture prices. Tommy, does your website specify which jobs were done in LED?

Thanks for the info and debate.
Tanek

NightScenes
01-22-2010, 12:10 PM
The best warranty I can find on an LED lamp is 2 years. Kichler warranties it's fixture for 15 years. I still for the life of me can't figure out why, if a manufacturer of a product says it will last for 50,000 hours, why that can't even warranty it for even half of that time!! If a lamp is operating 24/7/365, that is only 17,520 hours and none of use are using these things 24/7. I do use the LED lamps for my down lighting however because the Kichler fixture just does not have enough glare control for me.

Alan B
01-22-2010, 12:27 PM
You all bring up good points. In my opinion, just like most things, there is no right or wrong and there are pro's and cons to both sides. It is all going to depend on the application, customer, area of the country, etc..

Currently you can get better lumen's, color, price, quality fixtures from halogen. The Nat'l average cost for electricity in the US is $.11 kW. If the customer is in an average cost area its hard to justify the added expense.

However, if they are in CA or other high electric cost areas, a compelling argument can be made. If its a hard to reach fixture location, it can be a good solution. If the client is using the lighting dusk to dawn the payback is 2-3 times quicker (and lamps burn out 2-3 times faster, which also makes LED a reasonable alternative). If the client can't afford to have a light out for safety, security or aesthetic reasons (like a resort, hotel or commercial property) it may also be a good choice to try LED. If the customer just wants to be green or cutting edge, regardless of cost it can be a great choice.

Yes there is savings on trans, wire and service calls. I agree with the tran and wire, but you still need to service systems (clean lens, relocated, fix issues, trim branches, remove debris, lube components). I don't believe you can take an aluminum fixture and leave it unattended for 10 yrs--that's just not realistic (besides don't contractors make $ and want service calls to keep in touch with the client?).

Overall, right now I believe LED should be a choice that is used dependent on the specific situation and not "all my installs are LED" or "LED is the way to go"

Integrated LEDs are brighter, retro are more flexible. As a generality, I think a reasonable solution is traditional for now, and the client can upgrade to retro LED when it becomes time to do so. Unless it is a clear solution for LED now (for the reasons mentioned above) then integrated may be a good option. However there is a lot of risk on the major manu's standing behind the warranty claims for a 10 + yr LED in an aluminum fixture. Fortunately Kichler is a stand up large company that you can trust to offer such a warranty. By the way what happens if there is a lightning strike/power surge--who covers it?

A very good reason contractors should consider LED (and the main reason I think it is good for contractors) is not because it is better, but because you can make more money at it. LED does provide a strong differentiators and gives a compelling story to help close more sales. I believe contractors can and will make more money by pushing LED's--the downside is that it may not always be in the end customers best interest. That choice will have to be left up to the contractor to select on a case by case basis.

Sincerely,

Alan

Alan B
01-22-2010, 12:36 PM
Regarding the future, I see it as:

There will be greatly improved LED retro lamps coming out. there will be evolving integrated fixture designs (new generations). However the next major step will be:
1. a fixture specifically built for retrofit LED lamps. I.e. solid traditional fixture but with heat sinking and some heat fins in the fixture for the retro lamp (that is what Volt has in the works)
2. Then eventually the market will evolve into an intergrated design but with a changeable/removable/serviceable LED module as long term future solution (the best of both worlds).


Sincerely,

Alan

The Lighting Geek
01-22-2010, 12:57 PM
Tommy,

Thanks for the info on Kichler LED. Tommy, does your website specify which jobs were done in LED?


it doesn't matter, they would look the same.

JoeyD
01-22-2010, 02:09 PM
What LED "promotors" I will call them still fail to consider or even talk about it is what are you going to do when the lumens depreciate and the color rendition changes? Everyone wants to talk about how long the LED will last, no one wants to discuss how long the LED will actually look decent and operate effeciently. If the fixture/LED is good for 10+ years but only has 60-70% of the original lumens after 5 or 6 years are you really doing your company and your clients justice? What about the color shift that is going to take place? Are you installing and selling LED because your giving your clients a better option for the long run or because its a popular selling point and your favorite company is feeding it to you on a silver platter?

I dont know about all of you but I would say that the majority of the larger, more stable lighting contractors I speak to day in and day out go out and perform maintenance on their projects for many many years after the install. One of the things they do besides cleaning and adjusting is bump wattages as the landscape changes and grows. Of course adding fixtures is always an option as well. Problem with LED Fixtures and LED's in general is the lamp output/Lumens actually go backwords and unless you have a retrofittable lamp your stuck with a now underlit and ever changing landscape.

Before selling yourself and your clients on LED/Fixtures all day everyday consider the consequences of what you may be setting up your company for in the future. We have always promoted designing projects you can signature and be proud of. For its those projects that will become your calling card, and its those projects that will ultimatley say the most about who you are as a lighting professional. Anyone can go out and transform a property into a nighttime marvel, but few can maintain that level of quality for the life of the home. Are your products helping you or hurting you in maintaining quality for the long run?

S&MLL
01-22-2010, 03:03 PM
Tommy,

Thanks for the info on Kichler LED. I have never moved toward their company because a majority of what I remove is their product (fixture only). I am open to anything that will benefit my client. I think control systems and LED have a huge place in our market in the upcoming year. I am with James that I think the LED lamp will be a big advantage to us designers who are confident with our line of fixtures, or when a tree or detail changes the lamp can be changed as well. The modifiability has to come around on LED fixtures for me to be there as well. When a leyland cypress grows 10 feet in 2 years - the lamp option on LED is better for my company. And for downlights, it is a no brainer. I also have not had one client that could stomach the LED fixture prices. Tommy, does your website specify which jobs were done in LED?

Thanks for the info and debate.
Tanek


Is it catching on in South Jersey?

Last year total sales were 25 percent LED. I would like to bump that up to atleast 45 this year

Alan B
01-22-2010, 04:29 PM
Everyone wants to talk about how long the LED will last, no one wants to discuss how long the LED will actually look decent and operate effeciently. If the fixture/LED is good for 10+ years but only has 60-70% of the original lumens after 5 or 6 years are you really doing your company and your clients justice? Are you installing and selling LED because your giving your clients a better option for the long run or because its a popular selling point and your favorite company is feeding it to you on a silver platter?

Exc points Joey to which I largely agree.

I also want to add something about life expectancy. These lifespan figures are all guestimates as none have actually been tested that long. They are extrapolated figures and none knows the real life span--plain and simple.

Example...James is a very detailed guy who puts a lot of passion into his work and posts. For a long time he discussed the virtues of the Luxxo LED lamp he exclusively used, only to have a change of heart after having them in the field for a couple seasons. I'm not putting retro's down (in fact I'm in favor of them if as an LED choice), but everyone has to realize, there is a demand and market for LED AND there is also a risk with it...regardless of the method or brand.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 05:01 PM
The best warranty I can find on an LED lamp is 2 years.

Full 3 year warranty here.

The market is filled with products that carry warranties that are less than their rated life. It is not uncommon at all.

Appliances come with a one year warranty, they are certainly designed to last a lot longer than that.

TV's come with a 90 Day Warranty. Ditto.

Autos come with a 3 yr / 60,000 warranty but do you expect them to conk out right at that moment? Of course not.

GE MR16 lamps come with no warranty... but they are rated to last 5,000 hours.

Like most anything, if you have a great relationship with the manu/vendor of a product, and you are a repeat customer... then the manu/vendor is more apt to take care of any issues no matter what. Remember, "Friends doing business with Friends"? That is how I run my operations, be it issues with my lighting systems clients or issues with those who buy lamps.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 05:18 PM
What LED "promotors" I will call them still fail to consider or even talk about it is what are you going to do when the lumens depreciate and the color rendition changes? Everyone wants to talk about how long the LED will last, no one wants to discuss how long the LED will actually look decent and operate effeciently. If the fixture/LED is good for 10+ years but only has 60-70% of the original lumens after 5 or 6 years are you really doing your company and your clients justice? What about the color shift that is going to take place?

Joey, the IES has developed both a metric and a methodology for testing the Lamp Life, lumen depreciation, etc for LED light sources. When you see an L70 rating, that tells you at what point the lumen output of the lamp will depreciate to 70% of the original lumen output. The LED lamps I use have an L70 of nearly 40,000 hours. Sure they will make light beyond that, but this is the point at which they should be replaced. I have a bunch of LED lamps in the field with over two years on them... No noticeable colour shift or lumen depreciation.

As for colour shift, this would be the result of the LEDs operating at or above the rated heat specifications... If the heat they produce is too high, the phosphors used to create the full spectrum, warm white colour will break down and you will experience a colour shift. This is one reason why thermal management is so very important. Quality LED manufactuers that produce products that operate at cool temperatures will not have these colour shift issues. I would go so far as to say that with quality LED light sources, there will be less colour shift issues than you currently experience using low to mid grade, aluminized reflector Halogen MR16 lamps.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-22-2010, 05:27 PM
Example...James is a very detailed guy who puts a lot of passion into his work and posts. For a long time he discussed the virtues of the Luxxo LED lamp he exclusively used, only to have a change of heart after having them in the field for a couple seasons.

This is a good time to set the record straight here about my involvement with Kumho and the Luxxo Brand of LED lamps.

1: I did not have a change of heart regarding the quality of the Luxxo Lamps. They were a very good LED lamp, and have performed very well for me and my clients.
2: The lamp was pulled back from the market for a while to do some re-engineering... during this time I had no supply and my business needed to move on. During this time my relationship with the Kumho USA office changed... no fault of mine or theirs.
3: During this time I met some very interesting, recently retired engineers... I decided it would be cool and fun to build my own lamps. Glad I did.
4: When Kumho had their 'new' line of LED lamps ready for the market I was already invested in my own line and they had made arrangements with a NY based distributor to sell the lamps in a private label arrangement.

The LED lamp made by Kumho is still an excellent lamp. I dont use it anymore because I have developed a better lamp.

irrig8r
01-22-2010, 06:23 PM
In CA where an average custom home pays .38 a kilowatt hour, it is a no brainer.



Huh? I pay $0.11531/ Kwh to PG and E according to my current bill... of course I never exceed the "baseline"... and most of my customers probably do.

irrig8r
01-22-2010, 06:30 PM
A very good reason contractors should consider LED (and the main reason I think it is good for contractors) is not because it is better, but because you can make more money at it. ...
Sincerely,

Alan

Why does this strike me as cynical?

I think being clear with the client about costs vs. benefits is the right approach... and the same ones that are going to buy Lexus hybrids are going to go for LEDs for the same reasons:

"Green bragging rights"

irrig8r
01-22-2010, 06:40 PM
The best warranty I can find on an LED lamp is 2 years.


Maybe not a lamp you would use, but this new Nightscaping SCB replacement is warrantied for 4 years:

LED015 - 1.5watt, single contact bayonet base, warm white color, operates at 8-15v AC current, and -15C to 65C temperature range. And it carries a 4-YEAR conditional warranty. This unit creates light similar to the GE93 lamp which is an industry standard. The light is a bit softer and may require shorter spacing of pathlight applications. And it uses 90% less energy.

http://nightscaping.com/ledfixtures.php

The Lighting Geek
01-23-2010, 04:23 PM
Huh? I pay $0.11531/ Kwh to PG and E according to my current bill... of course I never exceed the "baseline"... and most of my customers probably do.

It's crazy in CA for a lot of reasons. The average large home with a pool is in the .38 range. Most are in the 4th tier and I have some with $1000.00+ a months electric bills.

California is the worst place to run a business in the country when it comes to the business environment, taxes, insurance, and such. We actually beat NY now.

David Gretzmier
01-23-2010, 05:27 PM
I think The argument on how long to warranty stuff is valid, as I will be the first they call and expect to cover repair and replacement. If I am giving up my yearly rebulb revenue in exchange for giving a customer a product that needs no bulb replacement, and then that product fails, where does the money come from to fix it? a retro-fit product that needs a new 25-50 buck bulb is one thing, but eating a 100-250 buck fixture is another.

LED's continue to intrigue and frustrate me. on the landscape side, I had a Christmas light client of mine go with a landscape install company because they had LED. and then you look at it at night. THEY think it looks great, but I see blue. Thier flagpole appears to have green striped american flag. The bushes look blue sprucy.

It frustrates me that ill informed consumers are going with LED because of the technology sounding, or the proposed energy savings ( electricity here is .08 per kilowatt ) or the longer life, and none of those things are going to pan out. The ones that are the likeliest to succeed are the pricey-est, and so far, no one in my area is using those. just the cheapies.

also, folks are buying the LED Christmas lights left and right, paying 5-10x as much at the local big box store, and then after they look worse than old style product, they also do not last more than 2-3 seasons.

I will continue to wait it out on the sidelines until a winner in the LED Landscape light area is obvious and a true good value for the consumer.

Let There Be Light
01-23-2010, 10:56 PM
"2. Kichler honors their 15 year warrantee, and for me makes It an easy choice. My local distributor has a field destroy warrantee. No waiting no paperwork."

Let's be honest here. Kichler integrated LED hasn't been on the market for 15 years. Remember Malibu?, I will predict that the Kichler product doesn't make it 15 years and when they start failing prematurely, Kichler will re-think their strategy.Of course as the led technology improves as time goes by, longevity should increase. Kichlers integrated will not make it here in PHX at a buck ten degrees. For that reason, I will not use.

steveparrott
01-24-2010, 01:25 PM
Does anyone know if the current LED lamp and/or fixture mfgs. honor warranties based on lumen deprecation? I assume they will all honor catastrophic failure, but will they replace the unit if you suspect that it falls below the L70 standard (70% of original lumens)?

Or, say that after one year (about 3,000 hrs.) you measure the luminance with a footcandle meter and make a rough claculation that the brightness has dimininshed by about 20%. That's way too fast - the customer is already complaining. Will the mfg. replace the fixture at that point or make you wait until L70 is reached (6 months later)?

These are key questions. If you're an installer putting in thousands of LED fixtures, how will you know in 2 to 3 years if they have become dim enough to return under warranty?

Keep in mind that many mfgs. warranties are flexible - meaning that sometimes they'll go an extra mile to keep your buisness. That's great, but you can't bet the future of your business on such charity - a few years down the line, the letter of the warranty may be enforced.

steveparrott
01-24-2010, 01:49 PM
We all need to realize that LED fixtures are a real game changer (with regard to warranties). Currently, if a fixture doesn't work, you repair it or return it to the distributor for a (hopefully) quick replacement. What will happen now when you return a fixture to the distributor and say "it's way too dim"? The distributor will have no way to test it and will be reluctant to replace it before sending it back to the mfg. Upon receipt, the mfg. will need to lab test the fixture and make a determination - how long will that take if that mfg. has a backlog of testing? Think about it.

James (and our forum sponsors with LED products), maybe you'd like to pipe in on this and let us know how you plan to deal with possible warranty requests on your products (based on lumen deprecation). Please be specific and don't tell us that you'll replace any suspect product without verification (you might end up replacing good fixtures with dirty lenses!).

emby
01-24-2010, 05:03 PM
Here is one from the Ushio site.

WARRANTY FOR SYNERGY LED MR16

Ushio America, Inc. Limited Warranty for Synergy LED MR16 Products:

Ushio warrants the Synergy LED MR16 ("Product") to be free of manufacturing defects in material and workmanship (normal wear and tear excepted) for a period of two years from date of purchase. If the Product is determined to be defective, Ushio will repair or replace the Product, or give credit, at its option. Please return the defective product to the retailer, distributor, or dealer where you purchased the product, for repair, or replacement, or at the dealer's option, refund or credit. Ushio does not pay incoming freight on warranty claims. Ushio will pay return freight to a North American address for warranty claims.

This warranty does not cover abuse, cosmetic damage, or damage due to acts of God, misuse, negligence, or modification to any part of the Product. This warranty does not cover damage due to failure to follow directions regarding operation of the Product and also does not cover connection to improper power supply (more than 12.5 volts), lightning strike or other power surge or any other primary side (line voltage) problem, or attempted repair by anyone other than a facility authorized by Ushio to repair the Product. This warranty specifically disclaims any damage done to user equipment. In no event shall Ushio be responsible for removal or reinstallation of any Product or for the expenses associated thereof. This warranty is given only to the original end user customer and may not be assigned or transferred to anyone else. It is the purchaser's obligation to retain proof of purchase documentation which shows the date of purchase. Ushio will not warrant any defective Product that has had its date of manufacture or other such pertinent information altered or removed. Please refer to the Product brochure and/or www.ushio.com for more detailed information on the proper use of the Product, including which types of 12 volt transformers and fixtures the Product is compatible with.

REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT OR REFUND OR CREDIT AS PROVIDED UNDER THIS WARRANTY IS THE EXCLUSIVE REMEDY OF THE CONSUMER. USHIO SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, OR FOR BREACH OF ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTY ON THIS PRODUCT. ANY REQUIRED BY LAW IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ON THIS PRODUCT IS LIMITED IN DURATION TO THE DURATION OF THIS LIMITED WARRANTY.

If you are an end customer, please return the Product to the place you purchased it from, with your receipt. If you are a retailer, or customer who did not buy your product directly from Ushio please return any defective product to the distributor you purchased the product from. If you purchased your product directly from Ushio and need warranty service, please call Ushio at 1-800-838-7446. You must obtain a Return Authorization Number and mark this number on the outside of your shipping containers. Any warranty requests returned without a Return Authorization Number will be returned without service. You must provide proof of purchase in the form of an invoice, or dated receipt which provides evidence that the Product is within the warranty period. Customers of Ushio pay return freight to Ushio and Ushio will pay return freight, to a North American address, for repaired and/or replaced product.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Products purchased through unauthorized resell sources such as, but not limited to, EBay, Craig's List, etc., are purchased at the discretion of the consumer and are not warranted by Ushio.

Please consider the following as to what is the proper use of the Synergy LED MR16:

FIXTURE & TRANSFORMER COMPATIBILITY

Three types of low-voltage power systems are used with traditional MR16 lamps: regulated DC, magnetic, and electronic. Please be aware of the following when selecting the appropriate transformer for use with the Synergy LED MR16.

REGULATED 12 VOLT DC: The unit works best with regulated 12 volt DC power.

MAGNETIC (standard iron core transformer): The unit is compatible with all types of AC magnetic transformers used with 12 volt lighting.

ELECTRONIC: The unit is not compatible with some electronic transformers due to its low power consumption of less than 5 watts. Most electronic transformers require a minimum load greater than 5 watts in order to function properly. This is especially true of lighting fixtures that have an integral transformer for each fixture. Accordingly, the Synergy LED MR16 is not designed to work with these types of integral electronic AC transformers. Installing the Synergy LED MR16 on an integral electronic transformer voids the warranty.

An electrician should confirm that the voltage on the line is 12 volts. Do not exceed 12.5 volts. The power consumption of the lamps on a circuit should not exceed the rated power consumption of the transformer. Failure to ensure this will void the warranty.

RLDesign
01-25-2010, 11:26 AM
Is it catching on in South Jersey?

Last year total sales were 25 percent LED. I would like to bump that up to atleast 45 this year

Yeah, not so much in South Jersey. I work primarily on vacation homes, and I can see the fit in the next year... but LED has not caught on in a major way. I also have clients that I care for and I am not confident that in any product that I have seen that will last in our harsh environment. Our transformers rust in 6 months and copper turns bright blueish green in 4 months. I have seen some fixtures, but the numbers are so high on the brass. Some of the stuff from Sherman at DG lights may work, but the money has not been there this year. I have not had clients that could afford LED fixture pricing, but I am trying to get to a point where I have some contacts in companies like James (LED Lights Direct) and some other manufacturers of LED fixtures/lamps. I want to be ready when LED is ready. I am almost at a point where I can confidently install the product for my clients. Almost there - a major reason I am taking the trip to AOLP and COLD.

Talk soon. Tanek

S&MLL
01-25-2010, 06:45 PM
Steve I can almost guarantee Kichler would honor warrantee on a low light output. I think they are concerned more about finish flaking then light output diminishing. When I use a certain line of lights I go though a certain distributor. I do this for a few reasons. 1. Price. 2. Customer Service. I know for a fact that my Kichler distributor would jump through hoops and bounds to keep me happy.

Mataman
01-25-2010, 08:28 PM
So far I have used 2 mr16 retrofits. And James's bi pin retrofit.

And I would much rather use Kichlers LEDs any day of the week.


1. Kichlers led spots are compact and not that bad looking. (I know most think they are ugly)
2. Kichler honors their 15 year warrantee, and for me makes It an easy choice. My local distributor has a field destroy warrantee. No waiting no paperwork.
3. Kichlers LEDs are readily available locally for me.
4. Its also nice having a 50watt comparable fixture compared to all the retrofits out there.
5. James the bipin retrofit you have is DIM. I mean like at night it is almost invisible. (Did I get a bad batch)
6. Cost wise Kichlers integrated cost me about 15 percent more then retrofitting does.
7. Pathlights from Kichler on the other hand are expensive. But put out a very nice light spread. Almost a little to white.
8.Imho Retrofit lamps have their purpose. I use them on problem fixtures. Where its just easier to throw in a retrofit then it is to rewire a system that I didnít install. Not having to worry about 11.5 volts is very nice.



Alright rip me apart

Kichler is giving me fits about #2

Whats the problem? Is it Kichler or the distributor?:confused:

Trailboss makes a good point. Have you Talked to Kichler regarding your issues?

I guess I need to clarify. I installed various Kichler LEDs (1st time experience with LEDs) on this bell tower back in Dec 08/Jan 09, 17 fixtures to be exact. Only two legs with 12/2; 1st leg had 9 fixtures and what I thought was 96watts with drop 11.7-11.2(best I can remember) and the other leg had 8fixtures and was 68 watts with drop 11.8-11.4 (once again, best I can remember but I was full of glee with minimal drop with so many fixtures). So I installed a 200watt transformer thinking I was golden. Tower lit up nicely and I left. That next week I was called because the lights wasn't working. Breaker was tripped and would trip within seconds after resetting it. This is where the headaches began which led to several calls to me and a electrician (to see if it was the line voltage since the tower was just totally remodeled) to see where the problem was. Shortly after a couple of weeks I lost a couple of lights, and returned them to the distributor. Actually the whole system would shut down so I replaced the transformer and it took me 2 weeks to get replacements.. why? when it only took me a week to get this light order in? We can blame the distributor. Well customer calls a couple weeks later and says that there is a few lights burned out this time. I call the rep, a very polite and professional gentleman I might add and gave him the skinny but he doesn't have a fix for me and referred me to a LED guru at Kichler HQ. He figured out my problem immediately. I was pulling too much. Those 12.4 watt lights pulls like 17watts and the 8.5 lights pulls around 12 watts. So my 1st leg was like 145 watts and the 2nd was 96watts. 200watt transformer was replaced with 300watts. Time goes on, distributor goes out of bizness and I start losing lights again. All I can figure is that the fixtures had to been stressed or something and shortened the lifespan. So I called the rep again and he wants a schematic of the layout but didn't mention anything about where to mail these bad lights to and didn't ask for an addy to mail the new ones to. This was a while back and I haven't gotten to faxing anything due to a death in the family but it's back on the burner now to finish up. :walking:
So I would like to correct my comment and say that Kichler is not giving me fits, it's just the whole process that is getting me down from the initial discrepancy in calc'ing wattage pull, to using a spare transformer, then upgrading to a larger one, climbing that 3 1/2-4story tower several times to swap out lights, to the local distributor shutting down and then more lights going out.

JoeyD
01-26-2010, 10:59 AM
so essentially they are 20w and 10w LED's??

S&MLL
01-26-2010, 04:09 PM
There is watts and voltage watts. Someone should of informed you of this at the start.


I guess your distributer sucked.


Joey they are
4.5watt
8.5watt
12.4

Output is comparable to 20,30, and 50watts. Ordering kind of sucks because each watt and beam spread is a differnt fixture number

Mataman
01-26-2010, 06:34 PM
correct on all accounts,, cept the ordering process,, it's easy once you learn the #s.

Alan B
01-26-2010, 08:20 PM
There is watts and voltage watts.


I may not be understanding correctly, but are you referring to the watts of the LED vs the Volt-Amps? The article below explains it better than I could...

"Power drawn by computing equipment (or in our case an LED) is expressed in Watts or Volt-Amps (VA). The power in Watts is the real power drawn by the equipment. Volt-Amps are called the "apparent power" and are the product of the voltage applied to the equipment times the current drawn by the equipment. Both Watt and VA ratings have a use and purpose. The Watt rating determines the actual power purchased from the utility company and the heat loading generated by the equipment. The VA rating is used for sizing wiring and circuit breakers. The VA and Watt ratings for some types of electrical loads, like incandescent light bulbs, are identical. However, for computer equipment ( and LEDs) the Watt and VA ratings can differ significantly, with the VA rating always being equal to or larger than the Watt rating. The ratio of the Watt to VA rating is called the "Power Factor" and is expressed either as a number (i.e. 0.7) or a percentage (i.e. 70%)."

I believe this is what is at play here-- LED's watts not equallying their VA --we are used to Halogens where watts=VA. Long story short-- with LED's looks like we need to over spec the trasnformer with a bigger capacity buffer than with Halogens.

Feel free to let me know if I'm wrong, as I'm working off research and not first hand knowledge.

Cheers,

Alan

S&MLL
01-26-2010, 10:40 PM
You are correct alan. Didn't put much thought into my post.


Either way its nice being able to use a 300watt trans on a cookie cutter house.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-27-2010, 12:06 AM
You are correct Alan.

Sometimes it is just easier to overstate the 'watts' on an LED lamp rather than try to explain the relationship between watts and VA, PF (power factor) etc. For instance, I call my LED lamps "6 Watt" when in fact they draw only 5.4 watts.