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integrityman
01-22-2010, 12:58 AM
I am in the market for a new or "newer" ZTR. I was sure that I wanted a diesel. Better fuel economy, really manly diesel engine noise and smell. Cheaper fuel (off road diesel).

Now I'm not so sure. I was at a local dealer discussing diesel ZTR's. The old guy behind the counter said: "diesel's not what you what to do son. It bogs down and looses rpms in heavy growth unless its turbo charged." He said that the gas engines don't loose rpms like the diesels. He complained about the weight of diesel Z's, which I already knew. He then raved on and on about the liquid cooled gassers. Its not that his brand didn't have a diesel option. They do. He just seemed pretty damn thoughtful and caring.

Decisions, decisions.........

Ive demoed Toro's, Exmarks, Ferris, Kubota and Grasshopper. Ive enjoyed all of them. The diesel grasshopper especially. Now Im not sure what I want to do.....

rcslawncare
01-22-2010, 02:43 AM
Diesels are beasts, but for what they cost over a gas model, its not worth it. Its all up to the operator, but I think the diesel can hold its own as they have some torque to turn those blades. I know the Deere diesel, the deck is shaft driven. Don;t know if the brand you are looking at is belt or shaft?

AdamChrap
01-22-2010, 02:48 AM
We run two Toro Diesels 25hp Kubota engines and they don't bog at all. Fuel consumption is great and torque to spare. We have had some problems but we "Use" our equipment hard. This will sound weird but stay away from the Toro 27hp Dihatsu, we had one and it was not good. It has 2 extra HP but weighs much more and has a way more complicated mechanical system. I swear the 25hp Kubota machine will run circles around the 27hp Dihatsu. We have the 25hp in 60" and 72"

rcslawncare
01-22-2010, 02:58 AM
We run two Toro Diesels 25hp Kubota engines and they don't bog at all. Fuel consumption is great and torque to spare. We have had some problems but we "Use" our equipment hard. This will sound weird but stay away from the Toro 27hp Dihatsu, we had one and it was not good. It has 2 extra HP but weighs much more and has a way more complicated mechanical system. I swear the 25hp Kubota machine will run circles around the 27hp Dihatsu. We have the 25hp in 60" and 72"

I talked to a guy working around me, and he had a 52" with the Kubota and it was a tank! Good machines and with the turbo force deck, they can cut some grass!!

AdamChrap
01-22-2010, 03:07 AM
I talked to a guy working around me, and he had a 52" with the Kubota and it was a tank! Good machines and with the turbo force deck, they can cut some grass!!

It works well on our 72" so on a 52" I can only imagine!

topsites
01-22-2010, 03:14 AM
Diesels sure are funny, but not haha funny.

AdamChrap
01-22-2010, 03:16 AM
Diesels sure are funny, but not haha funny.

Not sure what you mean by that.....

Stephen M.
01-22-2010, 04:07 AM
I was at a Toro Grandstand demo in November at my main small engine dealer in Bremerton, WA and the Distributor rep had a Toro gas and diesel ztr also. I asked the same type of question and his response was:

1. Pro-- Diesel rpms will slow down in wet/heavy or tall/wet grass, but torque takes over and you can plow through without missing a beat. Pretty much like a diesel truck or tractor--you got the guts to do the job and the fuel economy over gas engine guzzlers.

2.Con--requires more maintenance and costs an arm and a leg to replace. Generally, average cost to replace a diesel ztr engine is about $5000 vs about $2500 for a gas ztr.

Various governmental entities will go diesel for longevity of the engine and because they have paid mechanics on duty to service all of their stuff.

Another observation was that if you run your equipment without an adequate maintenance program, diesel will be wasted money.

P.Services
01-22-2010, 04:18 AM
If you go gas stay away from liquid cooled. Every liquid cooled I have ever owned has had gasket problems. From now on I'm going with air cooled 35hp briggs. They are a great engine, look into them if you havnt all ready.
Posted via Mobile Device

scagrider22
01-22-2010, 07:17 AM
I have had two Exmark dealers tell me to stay away from liquid cooled engines and diesels, he said the 25hp diesel has no power but I myself have never owned one. I like the gas engines.

integrityman
01-22-2010, 07:58 AM
We run two Toro Diesels 25hp Kubota engines and they don't bog at all. Fuel consumption is great and torque to spare. We have had some problems but we "Use" our equipment hard. This will sound weird but stay away from the Toro 27hp Dihatsu, we had one and it was not good. It has 2 extra HP but weighs much more and has a way more complicated mechanical system. I swear the 25hp Kubota machine will run circles around the 27hp Dihatsu. We have the 25hp in 60" and 72"

Adam- found a deal on a new 06 Toro 60" w/the 23hp diesel- 8800 out the door.... I am concerned this might be a "gutless" engine on this deck.....

Bunton Guy
01-22-2010, 08:23 AM
I've owned a couple diesel Z's. I loved them all and kick myself everyday for getting rid of them. The last I owned was a 60" kubota zd25 man was it a great mower. The engine rarely every changed "pitch" so as far as loosing rpm's in wet grass? never had that issue

If I bought another diesel mower it would be whatever brand was running kubota diesel. They know their crap and have been around forever. I'm not buying a diesel ZTR with a "experimental" compact new model engine like the cat/perkins that was going on a couple of branded mowers.

groundskeeperllc
01-22-2010, 08:30 AM
I've owned a 28hp Kubota in a Grasshopper, great on fuel but a maintenance/repair nightmare, the radiators replacement was $1300. I traded it for a new 29hp Vanguard last spring, way more power but way more fuel consumption. No more liquid cooled anything here!!!

jtkplc
01-22-2010, 10:33 AM
My salesman told me to stay away from the 25hp Kubota diesel on the 72" Lazer Z XS I was looking at. He told me to get the 35hp Briggs. If they had a 28hp or higher Kubota I would have probably went that route. But the down side is I probably wouldn't put 2500+ hours on the machine and that's around the break even point, or so I've heard with diesel Z's.

scagrider22
01-22-2010, 10:45 AM
My salesman told me to stay away from the 25hp Kubota diesel on the 72" Lazer Z XS I was looking at. He told me to get the 35hp Briggs. If they had a 28hp or higher Kubota I would have probably went that route. But the down side is I probably wouldn't put 2500+ hours on the machine and that's around the break even point, or so I've heard with diesel Z's.

My dealer also told me to stay away from the 25hp Kubota. Plus what is the point of paying all the extra money for the diesel engine that outlasts the rest of the mower I feel the gas engines start to go around the same time as all the other main components, I dont need a engine that goes for 5000 hours when the rest of the mower only lasts 2500 hours. I run air cooled 28hp Kawasaki's and they are very reliable and good on fuel with plenty of power.

AdamChrap
01-22-2010, 10:52 AM
I have had two Exmark dealers tell me to stay away from liquid cooled engines and diesels, he said the 25hp diesel has no power but I myself have never owned one. I like the gas engines.

That is odd, I have a highway right of way mowing contract and I mow it four times a year with this mower. The new big hp gas engines that have come out lately are on par power wise but man oh man do they suck the fuel.

My dealer also told me to stay away from the 25hp Kubota. Plus what is the point of paying all the extra money for the diesel engine that outlasts the rest of the mower I feel the gas engines start to go around the same time as all the other main components, I dont need a engine that goes for 5000 hours when the rest of the mower only lasts 2500 hours. I run air cooled 28hp Kawasaki's and they are very reliable and good on fuel with plenty of power.

I guess it depends what you need.

Adam- found a deal on a new 06 Toro 60" w/the 23hp diesel- 8800 out the door.... I am concerned this might be a "gutless" engine on this deck.....

23hp was the older Diesel, same engine block and all they just upped the bore size i believe. How many hrs? Where in Ohio are you my local dealer has a 24hp 60" with a couple hindered hrs you could probably pick up for that price or less.

betmr
01-22-2010, 12:56 PM
You want power & torque, fuel economy, ease & economy of Maintenance, you go diesel. 1. How many Farm Tractors, Bulldozers, & Excavators run on Gasoline? Expensive Maint.? What do you have, a Fuel Filter (That's on Gas Eng.) Oil Filter (That's on Gas eng. too) Air Filter (That's on Gas Eng. also) What don't you have, Spark plugs (To replace) Carburetor (To get gummed up) All kinds of Electrical components to go bad. (What a Diesel needs to run....Air & fuel)

I Run 3 Diesel mowing machines, not a lick of trouble out of any, and all the power I could ever ask for. And I'm partial to Kubota's engine.

I don't know a Dealer's mark up, maybe the commission on a diesel is less, I would be aware that they are going to push what makes them the most money. You buy a Diesel, and they won't see you for a LLLOOONNNGGG time.

grassman177
01-22-2010, 01:13 PM
all that aobut diesels losing power is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard. we have been running kubota for a long time and they blow the crap out of gas ever day. theya re the best thing for extra thick and wet grass. i cant tell you how many gassers i have flat out choked on the same grass i can fly through on a diesel.

the only real difference in maint cost is the filters are higher , but no spark plugs to change and fluid changes are twice the interval so >>>>>>>>>

you have to decide though about hte extra weight and if it is ok, as it can be an issue in wet ground.

mcw615
01-22-2010, 01:39 PM
Here are a few of the main reasons a lot of dealers try and push you away from diesel's...
1) They do make less on the diesel mowers
2) Most mower mechanics have little to no experience with a diesel engine, causing more time to "figure" out or "fake" a fix increasing liability
3) Dealer's make highway robbery selling parts for equipment sold - your mower is no good unless you have that little piece of plastic replaced that was crack, and both you and the dealer know this so that's why parts are so expensive, your mower is useless without the small whatever it is.... Diesels, your going to significantly cut back on parts purchases, repair bills, fuel bills, and the mower will last much longer and is much more durable than gasoline -- meaning you won't be replacing that diesel as often as the gasoline, causing fewer mower sales. I have become very good friends with my dealer, he care's about the best interests of his customers and their particular situation, not $$ and this is the information he has provided me and explaining how significantly diesel's reduce his mower sales, parts, and repair sales all around but what he has found is honesty and looking out for the customer and selling them what they need and not something they don't brings him more business than ever.

I have two Toro 52" 25hp Kubota diesels. Great mowers, they are a hoss, amazing power; they have been a tremendous asset. They were both purchased August of 2008. One has close to 90 hours and the other has about 115 hours. I was primarily in residential with small-medium commercial work at the time and the 52" decks worked PERFECTLY for me.

I am selling them both to upgrade to 66" mowers. I have retracted from "lawn care" and turned focus more into landscape and design. Last winter we notified customers we will be offering 12 months maintenance contracts instead of just cutting lawns, and we are now doing primarily commercial contracts and high-end residential.

These mowers still look close brand new. Extremely thorough and nit-picky maintenance was performed. Daily/Weekly/Monthly/Periodically maintenance logs can be provided.

These were the last two mowers purchased my dealer had in stock etc. before Toro and eXmark increased their prices by 15%, they listed at $13k but they reduced them to $12,500 for buying two, then I spent an extra $300 and something each to upgrade to suspension seats (must have), and the one with the 115 hours has a striping kit ($400). I am taking a hit to sell them both by March 01. Dealer said $10,500 would be a good price for them both since they look brand new, maintenance was properly performed and great care was given to the mowers, and they are in excellent shape. He said he would give me $9,200 for them as trade in, but I would like to try and sell them first since my dealer would easily sell it for $10k-$10,500 and I could use a few extra hundred dollars and pass someone a GREAT deal on one or two used mowers. Bottom line $9,500 a piece - no time for playing with negotiating price or playing games. If your seriously interested P.M. me...

Maple Wood
01-22-2010, 02:09 PM
I love diesel engines.
I have a duramax that runs real good.

I tried to convice myself to get diesel mowers but....... They are to heavy for my yards. Compaction is already an issue and the diesel makes it worse. Putting all that wieght in the ass end throws off the balance of the machine.
The reason diesel have better power for the HP is because of torque. Get the best torque producing gas to make up for it.

djchiodo3
01-22-2010, 05:24 PM
7 months into my 35hp diesel yanmar Dixie 66". Burns as much fuel as my 29DFI Kaw 61" and weighs a ton. I noticed my truck burning more fuel after I started trailer the Dixie. The mower, however, cuts anything I run it through and that is why I bought it. Now I laugh at tall grass instead of it laughing at me. Now Dixie sells it with a Cat diesel. Just a side note: Dixie is side discharged and 29DFI is a scag tiger mulch deck. I heard the 35hp briggs is a monster that is very thirsty when mowing under load. Diesels will last a lot longer as long as you take care of them. Of coarse most gas mowers can go 3000 hrs if well maintained. I now guys with diesel with over 4000 hrs.

RonAyersMotorsports
01-22-2010, 05:48 PM
:dizzy:The under power issue isn't so much the case anymore. Manufacturers have larger diesel engines available. Pay more attention to displacement size than HP since this plays an important role in Torque. Such as B&S D950 puts out 26.5hp at 3,600 RPM:dizzy: thats insane producing only 44.1ft lbs or torque at 2,400 rpm. While other companies like Shibaura who have a 25hp at 3,000 rpm with 1,131 cc. With an impressive torque of 49ft lbs at 2,200 rpm. Kubota D1305 with 29.1hp at 3,000 rpm and 59ft lbs at 3,000 rpm. Larger gas models 31hp Kawasaki's and 35 hp Vanquard produce 54-52 lbs of torque, but using twice as much fuel.

Personally with some of the sales on Diesel units, such as Hustler, money is better spent with a Diesel, don't listen to the old timer. He probably still thinks L-Heads out perform OHV models too!:dizzy:
Just don't buy anything with the 27hp Diahatsu diesel I mentioned from Briggs Above and you won't have to worry about expensive repairs and power issues.

integrityman
01-22-2010, 07:09 PM
23hp was the older Diesel, same engine block and all they just upped the bore size i believe. How many hrs? Where in Ohio are you my local dealer has a 24hp 60" with a couple hindered hrs you could probably pick up for that price or less.[/QUOTE]

0 hours- brand new,

I am the Lima area.... wouldn't mind finding out more about that unit.....

integrityman
01-22-2010, 07:10 PM
[23hp was the older Diesel, same engine block and all they just upped the bore size i believe. How many hrs? Where in Ohio are you my local dealer has a 24hp 60" with a couple hindered hrs you could probably pick up for that price or less.][/QUOTE]

0 hours- brand new,

I am the Lima area.... wouldn't mind finding out more about that unit.....

T-Made
01-22-2010, 09:37 PM
I've got a Toro 60in-- with a 23hp Kubota Diesel and have no complaints. It doesn't bog down. Kubotas diesel is tops in my book and fuel effecient. I bought it 3 years ago for $8600 demo=93 hours. Great mower-excellent engine.

AdamChrap
01-22-2010, 09:39 PM
Sorry I meant the 25hp, I will check into it for you.

NEWGUYRI
01-22-2010, 09:53 PM
If you can afford a diesel, there's nothing better......imo.

dishboy
01-22-2010, 09:55 PM
If you care about quality of finish cut diesel is a bad option.

AdamChrap
01-22-2010, 10:06 PM
If you care about quality of finish cut diesel is a bad option.

How do you figure? I have extremely nice manicured yards and use Diesels.

integrityman
01-22-2010, 10:14 PM
I've got a Toro 60in-- with a 23hp Kubota Diesel and have no complaints. It doesn't bog down. Kubotas diesel is tops in my book and fuel effecient. I bought it 3 years ago for $8600 demo=93 hours. Great mower-excellent engine.

Taylor-thanks- I assume your cutting mainly soiuthern grass species? I'm cuious if the northern grasses are a little "soupier" than the southern varieties. Thus impairing or creating more discharge challenge......

T-Made
01-22-2010, 10:42 PM
Less than 10 percent of the companies in the industry use diesels for lawn maint. Your larger companies use them for the longevity and fuel efficiency. If you can buy that mower for that price I would definetly consider making that purchase. Toro has zero percent for 24 months right now.
The turbo force deck has three settings for different types of mowing. The best buy for
the money in my opinion.

integrityman
01-22-2010, 10:55 PM
Less than 10 percent of the companies in the industry use diesels for lawn maint. Your larger companies use them for the longevity and fuel efficiency. If you can buy that mower for that price I would definetly consider making that purchase. Toro has zero percent for 24 months right now.
The turbo force deck has three settings for different types of mowing. The best buy for
the money in my opinion.

Yes- 8800 out the door. Is an 06 model, but still has the Toro warranty. And can use the same as cash for 24 months....

dishboy
01-22-2010, 11:09 PM
How do you figure? I have extremely nice manicured yards and use Diesels.

I figure a 1700 lb 72" Toro lays down wheel tracks and compacts more than a 1400lb 72" Toro.
I figure 260lbs is a a BIG weight penalty for any reason.

AdamChrap
01-22-2010, 11:16 PM
I don't think it is that big of a difference. You can have a difference of 150lbs easy just between operators. Sure it isn't great for small yards but who is running a 72 on a small yard? Alternate your cuts and it will be fine.

AdamChrap
01-23-2010, 07:58 PM
My dealer has a 08 that will be out of warranty this spring with around 200hrs on it 25hp Kubota 60" cut $7500
and
A 09 New 25hp Kubota 60" cut that will qualify for non-profit pricing, toro financing specials and full warranty for around $8800

PM me if you are interested

ramcat
01-23-2010, 08:25 PM
im surprised nobody said anything about resale value yet....diesels will get way more on a resale than a comparable gas machine...so that higher initial cost is erased when you get rid of the machine....we had a john deere 455 yanmar 22 horse diesel with 3500 hours on it and sold it for $3500 and it now has 4500 hours on it....no problems. We have two diesels and a gas and the gas is way more maintainence, and they have way more torque to keep the blades spinning. PLUS, with a diesel you get smooth hydraulic clutch deck engagement instead of those electric pieces of junk....all in all the diesel is worth it in my oppinion

djchiodo3
01-23-2010, 11:03 PM
I paid the same for my Dixie 35hp Yanmar diesel as I did for my 29hp DFI gas scag. It would be nice to see diesel fuel price come down. Even with off road diesel price it is still more then regular gas. Main reason for buying diesel was mowing high grass on foreclosed properties and certain lawns that seem to grow higher and thicker then the rest. I plan I keeping my diesel unit until I retire.

Circle 4 Ranch
03-01-2010, 08:40 PM
Resurrecting this thread with a question. I was discussion the big bore air cooled gas Vanguard with the Kubota diesel with a local dealer. He was indicating to get the blade speed needed with these ZTRs, you need to run the diesel at an rpm past the peak torque point. You really have to run the diesels at to high an rpm. Whereas the Vanguard rpms to get the blade speed really put that gas motor closer to it's peak torque.

I don't mow commerically so longevity isn't an issue, and I sense the gas may be a better buy. I'd prefer the diesel since I need that anyway for tractors. BUT.....I'd really like to determine which one is the most efficient and drives like it has the better power.

Anyone have first hand experience with the Vanguard 29hp versus the Kubota 25hp diesel?

MOturkey
03-01-2010, 10:14 PM
We run two Toro Diesels 25hp Kubota engines and they don't bog at all. Fuel consumption is great and torque to spare. We have had some problems but we "Use" our equipment hard. This will sound weird but stay away from the Toro 27hp Dihatsu, we had one and it was not good. It has 2 extra HP but weighs much more and has a way more complicated mechanical system. I swear the 25hp Kubota machine will run circles around the 27hp Dihatsu. We have the 25hp in 60" and 72"

Gee, now you tell me afer I buy a new Gravely with the 27 Diahatsu! Actually, I started a thread almost identical to this before I went with the mower, but got very little response. A friend of mine bought a used Encore years ago with this engine with who knows how many hours, the meter was broken, and ran the tar out of it for about 4 seasons, changing the oil whenever he happened to think of it, without the engine ever missing a beat. Sold it to his brother, eventually, for use on the farm, and the engine did finally go last year with no telling how many hours, and very little routine maintenance.

I bought the diesel just because they made me a very good deal, giving me a demo discount. I suppose time will tell whether I'm happy or get excellent service from it. I think a diesel is worth it, if A: you run your mowers for years and/or B: you find a really good deal.

nepatsfan
03-01-2010, 10:24 PM
My dealer has a 08 that will be out of warranty this spring with around 200hrs on it 25hp Kubota 60" cut $7500
and
A 09 New 25hp Kubota 60" cut that will qualify for non-profit pricing, toro financing specials and full warranty for around $8800

PM me if you are interested

Have you ever run the Kubota diesel. I saw that you had a couple toro's. I was looking at one at my dealers this week. Its funny that the guy who posted said that the guy was trying to talk him out of it because when I was at my dealer he was trying to talk me into it. I had the same thoughts as someone else about not having a great quality cut. I'm not trying to steal the thread but I have some similar questions.

DLCS
03-01-2010, 10:31 PM
I got my first diesel ztr 2 years ago and I'll never go back to a gas engine ztr. I plan on replacing the rest of my ztrs with diesel in the next couple of years. As far as the weight issue, the 997 doesn't weigh much more than the larger gas engine equiped Deere ztrs. Price? comparing at least a 31hp engine versus a 31hp diesel, the diesel will pay for itself in fuel savings over about 3 years. My 31hp yanmar burns abut 3/4gallon of diesel an hour, my 31hp kawasaki burned over 1-3/4 gallon an hour. Upfront costs are much higher with diesel but long term you will come out ahead in many ways. As far as losing horsepower in thick wet grass with a diesel, thats just funny. Torque is were diesels shine, they just keep lugging and lugging.

integrityman
03-01-2010, 10:47 PM
Have you ever run the Kubota diesel. I saw that you had a couple toro's. I was looking at one at my dealers this week. Its funny that the guy who posted said that the guy was trying to talk him out of it because when I was at my dealer he was trying to talk me into it. I had the same thoughts as someone else about not having a great quality cut. I'm not trying to steal the thread but I have some similar questions.

I did demo a grasshopper diesel, a kubota diesel and a similar toro with a gas engine. All delivered a fine cut, no difference in cut quality.

nepatsfan
03-01-2010, 10:55 PM
Interesting. I really hadn't considered a diesel but I just might give one a shot. We have a few commercial properties with big wide open areas that I think they would work well on. What is the big advantage though. Do you think the reduced fuel cost makes up for the higher ticket price?

DLCS
03-01-2010, 11:56 PM
Do you think the reduced fuel cost makes up for the higher ticket price?


Definately. Also, we go 250 hrs on oil changes, where as our gassers are 100 hrs. More torque, which means for us a better cut inthe thick wet grass. Don't just look at what that diesel machine is gonna cost you today, you got to average it out over several years.

alanauer
05-07-2010, 06:27 PM
Diesels require more maintenance than gas Stephen? How do you figure?