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View Full Version : Large Concrete Demo, pricing and calculations.


DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 10:05 AM
HI guys, I have a bid coming up and was looking for some expert opinion on the subject matter.

The job is around a county courthouse, removal of all concrete sidewalks for updates etc.. I will be able to dump for free at my yard (hour away) for sure; however, the area is surrounded by Ag and people normally fight for broken up concrete around here to use in place of rip rap so finding somewhere within 20 mins of courthouse is likely.

I will be using a larger mini x (Rubber Track w/thumb) / skid steer to do my removal and loading and hauling away with my tri axle mack. I am looking for an avg price many of you go by to start and adjust from there. Here are the numbers I am looking at.

Roughly 15,287.5 SQ FT
165.5 Cubic Yards of Concrete


I figure in a perfect world 8 loads in Mack.
With a little room to play I am saying 12.

Local Dump Fees if I were to haul to dump are $32.00 x ton for concrete and the dump in my home town (hour away) is $12.40 x ton.

Also what do you all charge for saw cutting in concrete? All concrete on job is 3-4 inches thick. Thanks Guys let me know.

I have come up with a number I believe will be competitive in the market, let me know your guys opinions. Thanks

$ 15,750 for a total.. that is me giving 4 days to complete the project. I do think it will be broken up into 2-4 phases as well as to not completly cut off access to courthouse during renavation.

Don

AWJ Services
01-27-2010, 11:01 AM
Most Dump trucks here will not hold that much concrete . 8 Loads at 165 yards of concrete equals 20 yards a load. Concrete weighs about 3500 pounds a yard so thats 35 tons a load. Trucks here are maxed at 22 tons.

I figured 265 tons of material.

Closer dump will be 8500 in dump fees.
The cheaper dump will be 3500 in dump fees.

I guess a min of 3 guys 2 pieces of equipment and a truck.

4 days for truck here is 75 an hour = 2400
4 days mini at 75 an hour = 2400
4 days skid at 75 an hour =2400

If you saw cut it costs on that ?

I see about 15 loads of material myself.

If you dump for free at your house the job looks good at your price. If you have to pay to dump then the margins are to close for my likings.

curtisfarmer
01-27-2010, 11:05 AM
Doesn't that just burn you up...$32 ton to dump, after someone paid X dollars for the original concrete. Up here crushed concrete sells for $9+ per ton.

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 11:46 AM
You are correct, I mis read some information. Concrete will be roughly 275 Tons. I have adjusted my price to compensate.. New Price will be in the 17,500 range. I will be able to dump on my property (Gulllies) if need be. I will have a nice profit margin in job if I land it. Any other opinions?

wanabe
01-27-2010, 11:52 AM
I may be wrong, but im thinking sombody will under bid you at that price.

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 11:56 AM
Yeah I am kinda thinking as well... I guess that seeing as i know I wont have dump fees I can cut the price a little. I just dont want to leave money on the table, I am new to the bidding process on larger jobs. We have done the work just never been in charge of bidding it on larger scale jobs. Do you think the 15,268 is more competitive or is that the price you were referring to as to be undercut?

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 12:02 PM
I just dont see how someone could bank on not having dump fees and really undercut this.. to me that is not smart business, I know times are tough but dump fees can make or break this job. Is it common practice for someone to undercut knowing they will not have dump fees? At the price I am figuring 15,268 I should net in the 9500 range. With dump fees I would be just about losing money. Do people bid to prices they would be losing money if they had to pay dump fees?

mudmaker
01-27-2010, 12:53 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how low some people will bid things. Sometimes it really leaves you scratching your head after the bid opening.

wanabe
01-27-2010, 01:28 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how low some people will bid things. Sometimes it really leaves you scratching your head after the bid opening.


SO you think $9500 profit for 4 days is going to get the bid in todays economy? I just don't see that happening. But I can always be wrong too.

ioilyouin
01-27-2010, 03:16 PM
I just dont see how someone could bank on not having dump fees and really undercut this.. to me that is not smart business, I know times are tough but dump fees can make or break this job. Is it common practice for someone to undercut knowing they will not have dump fees? At the price I am figuring 15,268 I should net in the 9500 range. With dump fees I would be just about losing money. Do people bid to prices they would be losing money if they had to pay dump fees?

Are you wet behind the ears? I have competitors bid on work assuming that the supplier will give them a price break based on their bid. Not only that, I 've seen them place bids where they loose money on every unit they sell, and the supplier assures me that we have the same price (which is illegal if not the same, but I have no way to prove it). Another tactic is bid a bunch of work cheap and dangle it out to the suppliers like bait and use them against each other. Lots of people will bid work just to turn the wheels. What ever your margin was for the work involved seem awfully lofty. If you get it, I'm moving to your neck of the woods to give you hell. Sorry, that was my GR moment for the day.

mudmaker
01-27-2010, 04:07 PM
SO you think $9500 profit for 4 days is going to get the bid in todays economy? I just don't see that happening. But I can always be wrong too.

I am not saying anything about his numbers. I am just saying sometimes you walk away from bid opening thinking you are in the ballpark only to find out you were way over. Even if you don't win it you can learn a lot about your local competition and how they figure jobs. That way the next time you will be more competitive.

wanabe
01-27-2010, 04:16 PM
I am not saying anything about his numbers. I am just saying sometimes you walk away from bid opening thinking you are in the ballpark only to find out you were way over. Even if you don't win it you can learn a lot about your local competition and how they figure jobs. That way the next time you will be more competitive.

Very true!

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 06:49 PM
Ioiluin.. If you read in my post I stated that the profit margin would be around the $9500 range. However if you also read.. the dump fees for anyone that does not have somewhere to dump will be in the $8500 range. My $9500 profit margin would be with me saving the dump fees as I have a site to dump. I know the answer to my question is that yes, people to bid stuff knowing that they are saving dump fees and will profit much more than those who have to pay to dump. My question is how low will they get? Surely people are not taking $8000 off a $16,000 job just because they get to dump for free (or cheaper anyways). I understand the economy is in the dumps right now, are you telling me people with nowhere to dump concrete for free will never land a concrete demo job that is being bid out? Maybe not... IDK. I admitted I was new to bidding these larger scale jobs, I am seeking help. Many of the prices I have read on this site show concrete removal jobs ranging from .75 to $2 sq. ft., I have noticed many times the prices for .75 per sq ft are not including disposal fees.. My bid is looking at about .99 cents sq ft including haul and disposal. Surely people will not bid this for .75 and haul and dispose of material.. maybe so.. this is what all I am trying to figure out. Please respond with information replies. I have also never heard of it being illeage for a supplier to give one customer more of a discount than another customer.. maybe they are more consistent customers than you..?? When you do work for people you have the same price across the board on all jobs or will you give a break to someone who does 3x's the business with you per year... ponder on that. Thanks

ksss
01-27-2010, 07:48 PM
Are you having to prep it back for new concrete or just tear out? If it is simply tear out thats pretty good money. I have a Mack triaxle iwth a demo body and high lift endgate 16' and I can get about 275-300 square feet of 4" concrete per load.


Without a doubt truckiing is the limiting factor. I would work hard to find a dump source close to the job. Negate the dump fee and drop your truck time in half.

Depending on time constraints and what your paying for help if you have any I would consider adding more truck power. If your paying someone to sit in the excavator between loads thats BS. May consider getting a side dump hired on. I could get twice the square footage in my Circle R as opposed to a dump truck.

Job that size I will usually factor in a new blade into the job and call it good. Unless of course there is a boat load of saw cuts. If your just making some dry cuts across sidewalks in 6-7 places I don't sweat it. Get to greedy and you will lose it at least here.


All in all thats a good job it sounds like and you should be able to make money at it. As long as you locate a dump source and don't have to grade everything back with compacted fill.

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 08:13 PM
Yes KSSS as far as I know all involved in my part is demo. My contract states remove and disposal only. All other work will be billed at hourly rates unless negotiated blah blah.. KSSS from many of the posts I have seen you involved in you seem knowledgeable with this type of work, I believe I have seen you state a price in a past thread that stated .75 sq ft.. Does a price like that include haul off or just demo? Also in your dump you would be looking at 50+ loads to haul off this concrete? I do have a guy or two that will pull tub dumps for 65 an hour. I am planning on possibly running that and my tri axle mack 16ft bed with 60in sides. I will only run both trucks if the project can all be done at the same time. If split up into 4 sections I will simply use my truck. Most of the concrete around the actual courthouse will have to be moved to one or two center locations for loading after being pulled up, ex operator will also be using skid steer while trucks are running to pile concrete in loading areas. I actually plan on doing this project with 2 ppl, 3 at most and that is if I am running two trucks.

NEUSWEDE
01-27-2010, 08:20 PM
I am not saying anything about his numbers. I am just saying sometimes you walk away from bid opening thinking you are in the ballpark only to find out you were way over. Even if you don't win it you can learn a lot about your local competition and how they figure jobs. That way the next time you will be more competitive.

Very good advice I bid on a bunch of stuff in the fall for municipalities more or less to get my bearing on how the competition bids to see the ballpark all in an effort for bidding this spring and get a big push on getting the work I want.
Out of it I was able to pick up a nice sized plowing account and make a lot of connections.

ksss
01-27-2010, 08:31 PM
Yes KSSS as far as I know all involved in my part is demo. My contract states remove and disposal only. All other work will be billed at hourly rates unless negotiated blah blah.. KSSS from many of the posts I have seen you involved in you seem knowledgeable with this type of work, I believe I have seen you state a price in a past thread that stated .75 sq ft.. Does a price like that include haul off or just demo? Also in your dump you would be looking at 50+ loads to haul off this concrete? I do have a guy or two that will pull tub dumps for 65 an hour. I am planning on possibly running that and my tri axle mack 16ft bed with 60in sides. I will only run both trucks if the project can all be done at the same time. If split up into 4 sections I will simply use my truck. Most of the concrete around the actual courthouse will have to be moved to one or two center locations for loading after being pulled up, ex operator will also be using skid steer while trucks are running to pile concrete in loading areas. I actually plan on doing this project with 2 ppl, 3 at most and that is if I am running two trucks.


I was curious about the logistics of getting the concrete to a location where you could load your trucks. My sides on my MACK are not that tall. You might hold more but you would likely be overweight if thats an issue. My .75 cents number would be tear out and trucking with in half hour of the job site. We have several concrete disposal options so thats not a problem for us anyway. I think you could likely tear out all the concrete in two days fairly easy. I have done school district jobs like yours. .75 cents here for that job would be an easy couple of days.

The way I like to manage them is like this. I will run my truck at the same time I am pulling out the concrete. The skid steer loads the truck if I cant get it close to the truck with the excavator. This is done by the truck driver. I stage the concrete where I can and once all concrete is pulled I continue to run my truck and hire as needed, but always side dumps or tubs best bang for the buck and I do the loading. That way your hired trucks never stop, what idle time I have between trucks I can occupy with other things.

Considering that its a gov. building you might have to accomplish much of it during the weekend or after business hours. If not, don't forget to tape everything off. Surely some Jackass lawyer will pay for him and his girlfriend to go to Cancun on your policy payoff while his wife gets a Bimmer and a facial.

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 08:53 PM
Ok your reply is very informative, thanks for everything. I believe I am going to come down with my price a little, I know I have somewhere to dump (my land) that is about 2 hours round trip.. however, as I stated the area is surrounded by Agriculture land and I am certain we could find somewhere within an hour of truck time to take the concrete! Even at .75 I believe there will be ample room for some decent profit on the project. If I had to truck the material back to my home town and it took us 4 days to complete the project my cost should be around.. 7000. I am going to bid it at 12,232 and see what happens :hammerhead: What do you guys think?

ksss
01-27-2010, 08:57 PM
Ok your reply is very informative, thanks for everything. I believe I am going to come down with my price a little, I know I have somewhere to dump (my land) that is about 2 hours round trip.. however, as I stated the area is surrounded by Agriculture land and I am certain we could find somewhere within an hour of truck time to take the concrete! Even at .75 I believe there will be ample room for some decent profit on the project. If I had to truck the material back to my home town and it took us 4 days to complete the project my cost should be around.. 7000. I am going to bid it at 12,232 and see what happens :hammerhead: What do you guys think?


I can only say that here that would work assuming there is nothing on site that would be a game changer.

It seems jobs like this will go everytime to the company that has an "IN" on dump locations and the right equipment for the job. Cant be competetive if you have to pay to dump.

Be sure to post back and tell us how you did and what the other numbers were.

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 09:00 PM
This is simply going to be bidding with the prime contractors on the job. I am going to try and find out how my numbers stack up against other companies though. All primes on the job are open to bids.. so we will see what happens, I am pricing concrete demo as well as the landscaping.

curtisfarmer
01-27-2010, 09:01 PM
Here is an idea I think about all the time......we all see "Fill Wanted" signs around. Find one of those....wait for the guy to go to work, and BANG 15 trailer dumps of concrete right in his driveway in 6 hours. Make sure you use cardboard over your door signs on the way in and out. Walla....now you are competitive.:clapping:

wanabe
01-27-2010, 09:06 PM
I can only say that here that would work assuming there is nothing on site that would be a game changer.

It seems jobs like this will go everytime to the company that has an "IN" on dump locations and the right equipment for the job. Cant be competetive if you have to pay to dump.

Be sure to post back and tell us how you did and what the other numbers were.

Ksss is right on. The low bidder will not be paying to dump, but will have a close place to dump for free.

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 09:08 PM
I actually just posted an ad on local craigslist for free fill, busted up concrete, etc.. See what kind of response I get!! lol

Kepple Services
01-27-2010, 09:23 PM
I have put up posts on this also. I pull concrete for .75 a square foot. This includes everything from removal, hauling, disposal, and grading off of the site to flaten it back out. Around here we can dispose of concrete for free(and actually get paid at one yard
) There is 6 yards in the area for me to dispose of concrete, asphalt, and limerock for free. I just looked at and bid a tennis court removal today. It is 120 feet by 110 feet. We bid the project at $8600. This is about .65 a square. We took 2 consideration in account for this. The disposal yard is 2 miles away(lowers the price), and also that it is in the courtyard(raises the price). It is 1 inch of asphalt and 3 inches of limerock.

DIGitDirt
01-27-2010, 09:46 PM
Kepple, i figured you would chime in. You seem very knowledgable on the subject as well. This bid is going out at .80 sq ft. 3 saw cuts total. I would do it a bit cheaper but still not certain where my dump site will be. I am sure we will be able to dump free however. What will you be using for equipment on tennis courts?

Kepple Services
01-28-2010, 12:23 AM
We have 2 tri axl rolloff/grapple trucks to haul with, as well as a bobcat T300, bobcat 863, and JCB telehandler. We will be using the 2 bobcats to remove the court. The T300 JUST fits down the breezeway, so it will go in and be the primary demo machine to stack the material. The 863 will be the "shuttle" from the pile to the cans. We epect it to take 2 days total for the project total.

ioilyouin
01-28-2010, 01:29 PM
Ioiluin.. If you read in my post I stated that the profit margin would be around the $9500 range. However if you also read.. the dump fees for anyone that does not have somewhere to dump will be in the $8500 range. My $9500 profit margin would be with me saving the dump fees as I have a site to dump. I know the answer to my question is that yes, people to bid stuff knowing that they are saving dump fees and will profit much more than those who have to pay to dump. My question is how low will they get? Surely people are not taking $8000 off a $16,000 job just because they get to dump for free (or cheaper anyways). I understand the economy is in the dumps right now, are you telling me people with nowhere to dump concrete for free will never land a concrete demo job that is being bid out? Maybe not... IDK. I admitted I was new to bidding these larger scale jobs, I am seeking help. Many of the prices I have read on this site show concrete removal jobs ranging from .75 to $2 sq. ft., I have noticed many times the prices for .75 per sq ft are not including disposal fees.. My bid is looking at about .99 cents sq ft including haul and disposal. Surely people will not bid this for .75 and haul and dispose of material.. maybe so.. this is what all I am trying to figure out. Please respond with information replies. I have also never heard of it being illeage for a supplier to give one customer more of a discount than another customer.. maybe they are more consistent customers than you..?? When you do work for people you have the same price across the board on all jobs or will you give a break to someone who does 3x's the business with you per year... ponder on that. Thanks

If you assume that the winning bid will not have any dump fees, then that's how you have to bid. You're assuming that someone will have a place to go and not be charged, then that's the bid you have to beat. On the flip side if you were that person you'd have some play room to make money over the other guys who presumably have to pay to dump. And as far as low bids, like I said some contractors will bid just to get the work, not to make ANY money. .

As far as my bids go: Yes, I have different pricing for my gov't work and my private work and it is based on volume but I am comparable to the other contractors. 80-85% of my work is state bids, I am supplying, hauling and applicating materials to various sites. State law requires that if contractors A,B,C are bidding on job 1, suppliers X or Y or Z must give the same price to each contractor (on state work). The price can change for other jobs but must be equal to each contractor for the same job.

We've been in business for 57 years and have never had a bad debt or unpaid bill. I currently own all of my equipment, buildings and land. So in short I owe nothing to anyone. The other contractors are similarly sized but haven't been in business nearly as long, so I can only assume that they are in debt or that they don't pay as timely as I do. All that being said there have been some shady backroom dealings going on for the past several years. The troublemaking former sales rep. recently retired so I'm optimistic about the future, time will tell. These contractors aren't as tied to the supplier as I am, so they in turn used their business as leverage to get better prices. There's a lot of other tricks that have been used but I won't bore you anymore with my problems.

In closing Good luck.

DIGitDirt
01-28-2010, 01:38 PM
You clarified a bit more in that explanation.. if there are pre-determined suppliers then yes they must have even prices accross the board to all the companies bidding on that project. I have adjusted my bid accordingly and believe I am down closer to the competition. I do believe I will get outbid, however I am going to turn mine in and try and see how I measure up. I just wanted my bid to be competitive so that I will be contacted in the future for bid invites.

DG

ioilyouin
01-28-2010, 01:50 PM
Every bid is an education. Sometimes it costs you though. Last year I lost a 44K job by $24 and an hour later an 84K job by $271 to the same contractor.

DIGitDirt
01-28-2010, 01:55 PM
ehh.. thats normally my luck. Well good luck to you this year, you seem to have your stuff together and I look forward to learning from you and others on this board as times goes on.

ksss
01-28-2010, 03:49 PM
Every bid is an education. Sometimes it costs you though. Last year I lost a 44K job by $24 and an hour later an 84K job by $271 to the same contractor.


That would suck. At least you know your bidding right. Thee years ago I lost the excavation on 12 houses by $6.00 per house for one of those selfhelp housing organizations.

curtisfarmer
01-28-2010, 06:20 PM
I always try to sweeten the deal by adding into my contracts something like 4 hours machine and crew time for up to 12 months after contract completion or some other intangable to seperate my bids from the rest. I feel with bids that are that close, the ones, like mine which include some soft benefits and good faith....willl always be competitive and sometimes they will give me the chance to "adjust" mine so I can still be the winning "low" bidder to satisfy their requirements.:usflag:

cascadedesign
11-12-2014, 03:21 AM
Do you mind sharing how the project worked out for you and what price you used in the end? What were the variables that you ran into (good or bad scenarios)? What was your profit or profit margin?

We are in the residential landscape design build business and we do not usually remove so much concrete. The access is poor , wheel barrow loads out only so I know that I need to add for that.

fool32696
11-12-2014, 06:53 PM
I saw Kepple already mentioned the Orlando market. People advertise $.60/.70 per sf and must be making money because they've been doing it for years. Lots of places to dump for free. I think a few places will bring empty cans to you no charge if you have enough quantity. Around $1/sf sounds good if you can dump free and keep hauling costs down.

jmacd
11-13-2014, 06:58 PM
We removed 15,000 sq foot of concrete at a target store last summer. We also provided stone and finish grading.

I find the dump site first before bid day. That way you know. The pay rate could be higher if it is gov't work. Don't forget to include the cost of the bond, paperwork, retainer if you are the prime contractor. I think we were around $15,000 for the work.