Getting in good with Home Builders

[slimart01]

Do any of you do contract work for home builders? ie. New subdivision - if home buyer opts for irrigation then gen. contractor says come install system or all homes req. irrigation.

How did you get in good with them? Do you have more success with lowest bid or what? Although building has slowed it seems this would be a good way to pick up jobs if you have contractors that use you exclusively.

[Mike Leary]

I think I did one job in twenty five years for a spec builder. Most of the time, the builder is broke by the time irrigation comes up. I always joked that if I could get in before the carpets went down, I'd have a chance. We use the term, "LOSS"= Last on site sub.

[Rotor_Tool]

While your competitors would encourage you to solicit work from the homebuilders, this is a sure way to go broke. Run far, run fast from the homebuilder market....unless you are independently wealthy and can install jobs without payment, ever.

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

It shouldn't be:
Getting in good with Home Builders

But rather:
Getting it good from Home Builders

[dougaustreim]

The only aspect of this that works, is if you can get the builders of custom homes to reccomend you to the new owner.

Spec home work generally goes to the low baller. Then too, there is often a delay in payment if the house don't sell right away.

[esnipe8]

Our entire business was built around new home construction (father 20+ years). It is very, very competitive but what isnt these days. We have lived well, and still are doing good. But my father was a very wise business man, kept out of debt and busted his ass.

[esnipe8]

Most of the time, the builder is broke by the time irrigation comes up. I always joked that if I could get in before the carpets went down, I'd have a chance. We use the term, "LOSS"= Last on site sub.

You nailed it!

[DanaMac]

I was doing repairs and service for a builder many many moons ago. They found a way for me to bring my rate down. Funny how most jobs took longer than usual when I went to bill them. Funny how parts cost more for them. :)

My advice, builders are hurting for money and sales. Who are they going to screw? You. The little guy. Last in line.
"Why is this so much? Tell you what, bring your price down and we'll keep sending work your way. I promise." Pfffttt!!! Then they go find the next little guy to screw over, and beat down on price, and not pay because "they never got your invoice", or "you didn't invoice in time for this billing cycle".

[bcg]

It's a lot easier to sleep at night when you're the guy fixing the builder installed system instead of the guy that installed the crappy system to the builder price point.

[mitchgo]

Also I think that if your not landscaping/ hardscaping the yard as well your company gets a bad rep because of piss poor designing . If your not you might as well be the last contractor to come in . Otherwise you're relying on other contractors not to screw your system/ design up.

Esnipe- Did you guys landscape the yard too or wait untill the landscaping was done?

[Mdirrigation]

I am doing builder work , but its for the landscaper doing the final grade and sod, the landscaper is responsible for payment , I have nothing to do with the builder , I have been working for this guy for 15 years , he knows the drill , i get paid in 15 days period . 25 unit subdivision , clay , 3 grand per system , backflow is supplied and installed by plumber . Systems are 4 to 7 zones . Not great money , not bad though bare dirt , plow the pipe in 2 hours , 6 hours to set valves and heads , 2 hours the next day to finish up , 1 man . I am not doing much else in the winter 1 a week isnt bad money

[AI Inc]

I have 2 partners that I do work for . Great guys , they build about 5 a yr. All have irrigation , all in the same town , one town over from the shop. Always paid in full , at full price within a week. For this work I give them each a free blowout on their own homes .

[txgrassguy]

Sounds like some of you guys have been bit by the cheaper spec market builders.
Well I have too - however I have since been working for three custom home builders that all do commercial as well.
Couldn't be happier, they pay well, pay on time, their checks don't bounce and they are asking me for more work than I can possible handle right now.
I'd say do your home work, talk with the local trade association reps in the area you operate for the true poop on whomever you may work for. Speak with previous subs (if they are still around) and find out any problem areas.
A trait I have found that works very well for me is to state categorically what a particular system costs. I don't dicker, negotiate or barter at all.
I will say if a builder says do this job for less and you'll get more work then "Run Forest, Run!".

[Waterlogged]

txgrassguy,
Well said.:)

[Kiril]

I think I did one job in twenty five years for a spec builder. Most of the time, the builder is broke by the time irrigation comes up. I always joked that if I could get in before the carpets went down, I'd have a chance. We use the term, "LOSS"= Last on site sub.

Surprised you would even consider lowering your standards for this type of work .... I wouldn't. Not many builders gonna pay $1500/zone ;)

[Mike Leary]

Surprised you would even consider lowering your standards for this type of work .... I wouldn't. Not many builders gonna pay $1500/zone ;)

Like I said, I only did one, and that was special.

[Wet_Boots]

....and now he's learned better, and that's called Special Education....

[Mike Leary]

It took me a while to get paid, that's for sure.

[esnipe8]

Esnipe- Did you guys landscape the yard too or wait untill the landscaping was done?

We do all the grading, irrigation/drainage and landscaping or each house. These are small lots, average size is around 8000-9000 sq. ft.

[Dirt Boy]

I work with a spec builder, do the grading, & sprinklers, ready for the sod layers. Haven't had too many problems, have always gotten paid in time. But, they are always looking, and they always want it done "right now". They barely get the electricity, cable in, seems like I'm working on top of or around them, don't even get the water hooked up sometimes, before it's "gotta be done".
That said, it provides steady work, don't have to bid, may not pay quite as well, but I can jump on the job because I know where they're building, and kinda keep an eye on what's going down.

So, I guess my opinion is, if they're fair, and half way reasonable to work for, take the work, just don't think they won't dump you in a heart beat, if they think they can get something cheaper elsewhere.

Plus it can lead to work from the new owners, and winterizing jobs, although I do include the first year.

Good Luck!

[koster_irrigation]

Most builders where i am pay weekly or bi weekly, that is if you have your invoice for finished work in by Wed, a check will available on that friday.


Builders will definitely have you working CHEAP & HARD - so being efficient and and get the job as quickly as possible is key. We did 70 houses in '07

They will expect you in the yard and doing the work on THEIR time table.

You'll be working in bare dirt yards which is nice and goes quicker, You better plan to be in and out in a day or so or not plan to make much money on small spec homes. $2-3 thousand usually does a small spec house.

Dont expect to get rich off working with them, i much rather prefer working directly for homeowners or commercial work.

Our margins are much larger doing service work.

[mitchgo]

You'll be working in bare dirt yards which is nice and goes quicker, You better plan to be in and out in a day or so or not plan to make much money on small spec homes. .

Exactly my point...

Now when a service company comes in to repair your install after a home owner has moved it. Your company gets the bad rep for the piss poor install/ design because it was installed before the landscaping as well as your company didn't install the landscaping.

[koster_irrigation]

Majority of the time im back in the yard moving heads ETC...

Talk about Cart Pulling Before The Horse!

[1idejim]

Exactly my point...

Now when a service company comes in to repair your install after a home owner has moved it. Your company gets the bad rep for the piss poor install/ design because it was installed before the landscaping as well as your company didn't install the landscaping.

mitch, a piss poor install, is a piss poor install, that has nothing to do with cookie cutter installs where there is nothing required but 100% coverage.

most spec builders do the front as per regs for a c.o.o. and leave the backyard bare. other builders will blanket the backyard with water and seed or lay sod in a small area to keep the dust down.

these are great for the landscaper or pool guy to make his money on, i never badmouth the guy before me, i explain what has to be done for change to happen.

Majority of the time im back in the yard moving heads ETC...

Talk about Cart Pulling Before The Horse!

it goes both ways, huh

[ARGOS]

these are great for the landscaper or pool guy to make his money on, i never badmouth the guy before me, i explain what has to be done for change to happen.

Badmouthing the guy before is bad form. I just say I wasn't there and I don't do things that way and move on.

[greenmonster304]

the father of a good friend of mine who does structural steel for new houses told me how to approach builders when they want a deal because they say they will give you a lot more work in the future. He said a builder was doing a sub division and wanted him to lower his price because he was going to get all the houses in the development. My friends father said he would do all the houses at his price except the last one which he would do for free. this way if the guy wanted the lower price he had to give him all the work.

[esnipe8]

Its funny how lots of guys bad mouth this kind of work. I am proud of what I do and love the opportunity that it gives me. I'll admit about half of the homes we do in a year are using the cheap product (pro sprays, arc nozzles). But the other builder actually values quality landscaping (precisions, dl 2000 drip).

You have to take the good with the bad, and seize every opportunity given. If I did not do this work, someone else would.

[txgrassguy]

Green, I do something similar however my agreement is in terms of a percentage attributed to the home's selling price.
The builders I work for understand this to mean that residence's up to @ $300K typically require about 7% of the selling price to be directed towards grounds improvement.
From $300-$500K, depending upon lot size, this rate may decrease to as low as 5%.
Above $500K the rate typically stays around 5%.
I do not include hardscape in this ratio, nor water features and the lot size is agreed upon prior to the ratio being accepted.
I have found that working with builders, budget info is what they are after most so if you can approach them with a ratio scenario similar to what I have posted they may incorporate that idea easier than individual estimates on individual lots.
As a final point I have a residence that is about $800K, minimal turf area < 10K, all stone work, and water features are extra and I am receiving 7% to install the irrigation, turf and plantings.
My cost for this job, including labor is approximately $28K for three weeks work.
The homeowner was very pleased in how I explained the entire process so he and his wife could budget accordingly. I have found explaining costs to be much more "palatable" to the homeowner when I mention percentages instead of dollars.
My last conversation with a builder was very positive since adopting this ratio process.
I observed several other LCO's attempting to horn in on these jobs and the builder told me he was staying with my company for several reasons like the usual professional work, accountability, etc.
Then he said the real benefit towards our relationship was he has been able to accurately budget grounds improvement costs during the planning stages, appreciates how simple the ratio makes his budget planning to be and figures since I helped him out he'll keep using my company for the installs.
And before anyone asks about his lowering the ratio to achieve higher returns, this guy and his company is one of the three I mentioned before who value reliable contractors and doesn't want to take a chance with an "unknown".

[FIMCO-MEISTER]

Its funny how lots of guys bad mouth this kind of work. I am proud of what I do and love the opportunity that it gives me. I'll admit about half of the homes we do in a year are using the cheap product (pro sprays, arc nozzles). But the other builder actually values quality landscaping (precisions, dl 2000 drip).

You have to take the good with the bad, and seize every opportunity given. If I did not do this work, someone else would.

Company in Dallas called choate Irrigation has made a lot of money with builder systems. At one time I was told he was buying half the RB heads in Dallas. not sure if it was true but he was putting in a buttload of systems no doubt. I've followed them and needless to say was not impressed. Get what you pay for I guess. Their pipe, on the two I dealt with, was very shallow and the heads had to be funny piped in. They were coming out of the ground or getting cockeyed. No pressure regulation and no low head drainage protection. Water is too valuable to be able to rationalize that kind of stuff. Maybe they've changed now that the state is cracking down.

I've never been a fan of the attitude if it wasn't me then it would be somebody else. Deficit thinking. That is the attitude our politicians have that has led to a 14 trillion dollar deficit. At some point you have to decide what you stand for. Money Money Money or preserving a resource and educating the public and making a good living. Water isn't there to be manipulated for personal gain.

Whatever though. Nobody in any part of our industry is an innocent player in this.

[txgrassguy]

Pete, I agree up to a point.
As irrigators we do have an implicit responsibility to observe the licensing guidelines during an install - however, there are levels to the install beyond the minimum. Budget restrictions obviously impact what occurs but to run a successful business through an economy of scale application isn't bad - it just isn't for everyone.

[Waterit]

I've made a living for the past 25 years working for homebuilders. I've managed to get screwed by homebuilders for a grand total of $40 in all these years. I held the line on my prices, and passed on the guys who told me what they were paying.

There's money to be made in that market, not with the tract builders so much -they're good for volume only but you have to have a price point with them. Or you just lose your butt faster.

The homebuilders typically pay the Friday following completion. I've only had to threaten to file a lien twice - and never had to follow through.

The higher-end/custom guys know what the work is worth, have no problem paying for quality work, and will tell their high-end buddies.

I've also had a pretty good mix of negotiated commercial work (along with some low-bid stuff) and service to balance things out.

[Mike Leary]

The higher-end/custom guys know what the work is worth, have no problem paying for quality work, and will tell their high-end buddies

You got a better market than I ever had; my "high-end" guys were/are slimeballs and not worth the time of day.

[1idejim]

You got a better market than I ever had; my "high-end" guys were/are slimeballs and not worth the time of day.

you've hit that nail hard, mr. leary