Biosolids

[DUSTYCEDAR]

BIO-SOLIDS good, bad, ugly?
i sat through a session yesterday being told how bad bio-solids are.
i have also heard from others how wonder full they are.
Whats your take on it??????
lets hear it.

[quackgrass]

The Good:

High in organic matter, high in microbes, good plant and soil nutrition.
Low cost compared to some sources of organic fertilization.
Utilizes the waste stream so that more poo is kept out of land fills.

The Bad:

Depending on the source, it contains low amounts of heavy metals, hormones,pharmacuticals, and just about anything that has gone down a drain or toilet.
http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/biosolids/tnsss-overview.html#results
The public is very sensitive and worried about toxic substances because of all the hype they hear from extremists.

The Ugly: Climate fanatics want Bio-solids used for energy production instead of fertilizer because they think the Methane release from composting is going to cook us off the earth:dizzy:

[phasthound]

The Good:

High in organic matter, high in microbes, good plant and soil nutrition.
Low cost compared to some sources of organic fertilization.
Utilizes the waste stream so that more poo is kept out of land fills.

The Bad:

Depending on the source, it contains low amounts of heavy metals, hormones,pharmacuticals, and just about anything that has gone down a drain or toilet.
http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/biosolids/tnsss-overview.html#results
The public is very sensitive and worried about toxic substances because of all the hype they hear from extremists.

The Ugly: Climate fanatics want Bio-solids used for energy production instead of fertilizer because they think the Methane release from composting is going to cook us off the earth:dizzy:

I agree with most of this except for being high in microbes. But it is a great food source for microbes.

[quackgrass]

Technically I'm right because bio-solids are rich in microbes. (dead ones!)

I see your point, I was thinking of the microbes and organic matter present in bio-solid compost actually :)

[ICT Bill]

They can be high in heavy metals, I have always suggested to people to not use them around kids and pets

heavy metals do not go away quickly and can build up to high levels quickly, you don't want a kid skinning their knee and get high levels of lead or a dog chasing/chewing a ball high in aresnic

i don't think I would use them in the garden either

Now thats an idea make char out of it

[Landscape Poet]

I do not think they are the worst thing you could put on a lawn! The positive is that they do show the ability to help plant growth, using them is at least trying to solve the problem of what to do all the poo we create.
The bad that I know about is similar to what ITC Bill stated - not good for lawns where kids may be playing.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

I talked with a local supplier about the contents of there bag and i got a blank stare

[quackgrass]

I talked with a local supplier about the contents of there bag and i got a blank stare

You would also get that look from a guy at the local box store selling a synthetic mineral fertilizer.

Biosolids need more testing and research before we come to set conclusions.

We are constantly moving to cleaner products as screening and research increase.

Certainly some positive uses, along with some hazards.

Its too bad we don't study the safety of "natural" products like we do synthetic, of course then we would be too afraid to use them:rolleyes:

I don't believe either forms to be very toxic. Integration of both make for the best it seems.

Its all ok if we study it, minimize inputs and unintended effects, constantly improve it, enact population control.:laugh:

[Landscape Poet]

You would also get that look from a guy at the local box store selling a synthetic mineral fertilizer.

Very true statement! I often like just asking questions at Home Depot and Lowe's on the weekends when my wife drags me along. It is really fun to get them going and them confusing them with a question like how much of the N in the product is slow release?

[DeepGreenLawn]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Been here done that... but in bulk from a local municipality. Bio-solids in a bag? Probably pretty safe.

My thoughts, opinions, and experience.

1. Make sure it isn't too fresh. I burnt a yard... woops...

2. Make sure it isn't too fresh. Two sides to this, the same yard I got a load that was dry, but the next day it rained and WOW the stinch...

3. The yard I applied this to is now SUPER healthy.

4. If you go to a local municipality, watch out for things like glass shards. They screened the product I was using but after a rain on some leftovers I about fell over considering how much glass was left uncovered on top of the pile... not good...

5. Make sure it is from a Grade A, A as in apple, producer. This is the best in areas such as diseases and such...

Like I said, been there, done that, on the grander scale. I may consider using it again as a soil amendment but not a top dress. I doubt I will be revisiting that product anytime soon though... mainly due to the glass... that was such a disappointment...

[OrganicsMaine]

I use a product from New England Organics that is biosolids.....no problems what so ever with glass or any other debris. Did top dress and it burned a little, seemed like a lot of urea in it. I will post a link in another reply.

Had great results with the lawns. Also worked well with new seeding. The smell was strong as it went down, but I did survey a few customers and they had no complaints, a few said that their mulch smelled stronger than the compost on the lawn.

[OrganicsMaine]

Here's the link: [url]www.earthlifegrows.com

[MarcSmith]

Dusty,

were you at the Fisher and Son training seminar?

I was at the one in VA yesterday and heard Kewin barrows talk as well.

I was pretty impressed

I got a couple pages of notes... from him alone...

[DeepGreenLawn]

Well like I said, this was in bulk, not bagged, from a local municipality. I would hope that the bagged substances would have the glass issue taken care of. I wonder how they did that though...

[OrganicsMaine]

Everything that I use is bulk, not bagged. I am looking into trying out the bagged fert that they have listed on there. I have a call in to them to see if they can send me any info on the heavy metal content of their products too.

[ICT Bill]

Dusty,

were you at the Fisher and Son training seminar?

I was at the one in VA yesterday and heard Kewin barrows talk as well.

I was pretty impressed

I got a couple pages of notes... from him alone...

Marc, did you mean Kevin Burrows, the australian guy?

very smart guy, he has been around the block

[MarcSmith]

yeah the guy with the funny accent...:) I was doing my pesticide ceu's and I usually drop in the ipod and snooze in the back, But I was stuck up front so I had to pay attention.:cry:

His talk was really good, I wish they would have had him talk longer.

[ICT Bill]

yeah the guy with the funny accent...:) I was doing my pesticide ceu's and I usually drop in the ipod and snooze in the back, But I was stuck up front so I had to pay attention.:cry:

His talk was really good, I wish they would have had him talk longer.

he is a great guy, I know him well and he is kind of local to us just over the border in West (by god) Virginia.

His speciality is sports turf and Golf but he has been in the business so long he not only knows everyone but is very knowledgable
He was part of the group that started "Roots" fertilizers, he was talking mycorrhizae in the mid 90's

He also loves to hear himself talk (I tell him that all the time)

I have been trying to hire him for 2 years

[Barefoot James]

...............back on topic
Biosolids -

First off they have fiqured out the metal thing at least here in Louisville (Louisville Green) the metal counts are less than the metals in Urea! So metal wise it is safer than any synthetic going down (not that that's a thing to brag about).

Did you see the Ryder Cup in 2008? Valhalla GC uses tons of this stuff, it is their primary fert - ask greenskeeper44. They ave great grass - so it for sure works.

I used over 5 tons in 2008 and it worked great on my lawns.

But - always a but

It smells like where it came from your B____.

And the local person in charge of distribution is just not a good rep. No bulk and they have jacked up the price so much (I guess cause they can get it??) That between the smell and aggravation of getting it I have gone in a different direction - too much hassle.

In WA you can pull your trailer or PU and they can dump a ton right on the truck or even load a pallet on there for cheap. $2 per 50lbs bagged or $100 a ton bulk. Why they are smart and set up there operation to handle it on site.

Louisville - stupid hauls it 100 miles to central KY to bag it and then back????
Then they go through a middleman and it cost $6??? You have to use 20 lbs per 1000 so it is not cheap and it stinks. Plus all that handling and the bags they use the stuff is falling out all over the place:dizzy:. But the metal thing is not a big thing anymore - overall.

To each his own. Good pros and cons - I for one would use it if the price was right. I did learn if you get it down when it is really cold or rain is coming that day - odor is not an issue. University of KY says to get down 20lbs per 1000 in Nov and again in Dec for best results so the colder the better for odor and feeding the roots.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I would recommend you take a good close look at your bulk products. When speaking with the supplier I was getting it from they said that the product was coming from the main sewage lines, obviously, and that glass and different objects were going to get in there no matter what they did. Everything was screened to 1/8th inch I believe so the peices were small, but I still did not like the idea of any glass being there. I see that as a major liability.

If your people are able to get the glass out of theirs I would be very interested to know how it is they are able to extract it. These were not large shards but small, minierature peices that showed up, some had sharp points. Whether or not they would actually do any harm? I don't know, may be why they were allowed to keep it in there, but if someone walked up to my trailer and saw all of that glass sitting on my pile of compost then I am sure I would have a fun time trying to explain it.

Just my two cents... again, if they got the glass out and you can ask them how it was done that would be awesome.

[OrganicsMaine]

Great info Barefoot.....I am getting it from a local garden center for about $21/yd. That's actually a lot cheaper than mulch around here.

The one lawn the burned quickly was out in a field, it hadn't rained for about 10 days, and it was sunny and, probably as important, very windy with very low humidity. The customer called, I took a look, and it was only the tips of the grass burning, so I was relieved and told them that it was just the conditions. I had them water heavily for a couple of days and it all came back very strong.

When I've used this in plantings, they EXPLODE! I mean a 1 gallon perennial looks like it has been in for 3 years after one full season of growth.

As I said, the smell isn't too bad, probably worse for me as I am using it. The only time that I noticed and was concerned was when it went down, was irrigated, followed by warm humid and rainy days. I did smell it as I got out of the truck to follow up, I was looking for it though. Otherwise, no problems at all.

[OrganicsMaine]

I would recommend you take a good close look at your bulk products. When speaking with the supplier I was getting it from they said that the product was coming from the main sewage lines, obviously, and that glass and different objects were going to get in there no matter what they did. Everything was screened to 1/8th inch I believe so the peices were small, but I still did not like the idea of any glass being there. I see that as a major liability.

If your people are able to get the glass out of theirs I would be very interested to know how it is they are able to extract it. These were not large shards but small, minierature peices that showed up, some had sharp points. Whether or not they would actually do any harm? I don't know, may be why they were allowed to keep it in there, but if someone walked up to my trailer and saw all of that glass sitting on my pile of compost then I am sure I would have a fun time trying to explain it.

Just my two cents... again, if they got the glass out and you can ask them how it was done that would be awesome.

I will see what I can find out for you. If you haven't checked already, check here: www.newenlandorganics.com. Not sure if the site will say, but the product is great and I have never found any contaminants in it.

[Barefoot James]

if they got the glass out and you can ask them how it was done that would be awesome.

Call them up and ask them? - www.louisvillegreen.com

I never saw anything but black small particles - even under a scope? After I wrote my last post on this I copied and pasted it and sent it to them. We will see what happens - probably nothing.

[quackgrass]

...............back on topic
Biosolids -

First off they have fiqured out the metal thing at least here in Louisville (Louisville Green) the metal counts are less than the metals in Urea! So metal wise it is safer than any synthetic going down (not that that's a thing to brag about).



First off that is completely wrong, Urea has an extremely low heavy metal content.

Louisville green is extremely high in heavy metals compared to urea or many other synthetic fertilizers. Hundreds if not thousands of times higher.

[Barefoot James]

..................delete. Why bother?

[ICT Bill]

First off that is completely wrong, Urea has an extremely low heavy metal content.

Louisville green is extremely high in heavy metals compared to urea or many other synthetic fertilizers. Hundreds if not thousands of times higher.

Have you actually seen an analysis of both??

just curious

[atouchofnature]

Have you actually seen an analysis of both??

just curious

The Louisville Green analysis is here:

http://www.louisvillegreen.com/pdfs/lab.pdf

[quackgrass]

Here is some Urea, Measured in PPM:http://http://agr.wa.gov/pestfert/fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=2978

I couldn't find Louisville green measured in PPM but its very similar to milorganite when you compare its mg/kg Milorganite PPM: http://agr.wa.gov/pestfert/fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=1460

Milorganite and Louisville green will vary month by month on heavy metals.

I don't think Louisville green is a bad product, I would use it in a heartbeat.

People just need to know whats in it, and the liability that comes with that.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

People just need to know whats in it, and the liability that comes with that.
many dont know or arent sure what the risk are?
there is so much missleading info out there?
i am just trying to clear up some questions for all.
thanks to everyone that has posted

[OrganicsMaine]

I agree with Dusty. For me, I need to know what's what, so I can make an informed decision on whether or not to use them. I have used a compost that was worthless....no i didn't have it tested, lesson learned......and lost a job because of it. In using the biosolids, i have had excellent results. Now I just need to find out the rest of the info so that if I decide to use them, I don't have a nagging question mark in the back of my mind.:dizzy:

[Barefoot James]

[COLOR="Blue"]
i am just trying to clear up some questions for all.
thanks to everyone that has posted

OK Dusty, clear it up for us??? :laugh:

Based on the posts from this thread one would still be as confused as ever.:dizzy: Basically for turf I think no problems, yes they work, if you don't mind the pewwww. For ag you really need to make sure you get the suppliers tests numbers and know how to read them.:confused:

[JWTurfguy]

FYI...

If anyone is interested in hearing Kevin Burrow's presentation, he'll be making another one at Valley Green in White Plains, NY on Tuesday, 2/9.

PM for details.

[Kiril]

I have used a compost that was worthless....no i didn't have it tested, lesson learned......and lost a job because of it.

details ??

[OrganicsMaine]

Kiril, maybe worthless was not a good term....but spoke with a friend who did have it tested, and it was not much better than mulch in terms of nutrients. I'm sure adding the organic matter to the soil was a good thing, but the grass seed didn't germinate as well as I would have liked....no where near. Used seed from the same batch on a neighbor's lawn, with no compost, and it did great, so I don't believe it was the seed.

[OrganicsMaine]

I just read this: faculty.washington.edu/slb/sally/metals%20in%20biosolids.pdf

I think Barefoots assessment is viable, based on my understanding of this article, using the biosolids on the turf is a good thing with minimal risk.

What do you think?

[Marcos]

Kiril, maybe worthless was not a good term....but spoke with a friend who did have it tested, and it was not much better than mulch in terms of nutrients. I'm sure adding the organic matter to the soil was a good thing, but the grass seed didn't germinate as well as I would have liked....no where near. Used seed from the same batch on a neighbor's lawn, with no compost, and it did great, so I don't believe it was the seed.

Was this maybe pasturized bagged compost?

[DeepGreenLawn]

If you get the product in bulk from the people actually manufacturing it, make sure that they are a Class "A" producer. This means that the process takes out the highest percentage of harmful bacteria and other stuff from the pile. Probably means you loose a lot of the good guys too but for me the biggest thing is the OM. The good guys can be taken care of after the fact.

Also, in my experience as posted, watch out for trash. In my case, small pieces of glass, and be sure that it isn't too fresh as you will easily burn a yard.

Another caution... if you're unsure of how fresh the pile is, I don't recommend putting out piles and spreading from the piles. I did this and even though I literally dumped, and raked immediately afterwards I still had major burn spots where the piles sat as well as "sun rays" from which I spread the product.

Other than that, I too had really good results from the product. In the case that I used it there was a bad odor to it that wasn't there the first time. Maybe be sure that it is as dry as possible. The neighbors or the customer didn't appreciate the smell very much. Neither did I as a matter of fact...

[OrganicsMaine]

Was this maybe pasturized bagged compost?

Nope, supposed to have manure and seafood compost along with bedding. I have not gone back to that supplier so I haven't bothered to have it tested. It cost me $21/yd delivered, which is a great price. I can charge $40/yd retail, so there was a good amount of profitability there, if the stuff worked!:hammerhead

Bulk compost is very common here, so I don't have to go the bagged route.

[OrganicsMaine]

If you get the product in bulk from the people actually manufacturing it, make sure that they are a Class "A" producer. This means that the process takes out the highest percentage of harmful bacteria and other stuff from the pile. Probably means you loose a lot of the good guys too but for me the biggest thing is the OM. The good guys can be taken care of after the fact.

Also, in my experience as posted, watch out for trash. In my case, small pieces of glass, and be sure that it isn't too fresh as you will easily burn a yard.

Another caution... if you're unsure of how fresh the pile is, I don't recommend putting out piles and spreading from the piles. I did this and even though I literally dumped, and raked immediately afterwards I still had major burn spots where the piles sat as well as "sun rays" from which I spread the product.


Other than that, I too had really good results from the product. In the case that I used it there was a bad odor to it that wasn't there the first time. Maybe be sure that it is as dry as possible. The neighbors or the customer didn't appreciate the smell very much. Neither did I as a matter of fact...

The supplier I use does produce class "A" biosolids, so it is good stuff. I figured that the low herd count could easily be replenished.

I too had burn issues, never dumped piles, but threw it with a grain shovel right from my trailer/wheelbarrow. Still had some dessication/burn, but not severe. I'm planning on having a load dumped(no pun:laugh:) at my place this year, early so that it has been sitting for most of the winter and cooled down enough. The stuff I used had a strong ammonia smell to it, that may be what caused the burn, but overall the odor wasn't extreme. Or, my nose is just so used to it that I can't smell it anymore!

[DUSTYCEDAR]

i got some so called compost that grass wouldent grown in or weeds for that fact.
never did figure out why

[Marcos]

Also, in my experience as posted, watch out for trash. In my case, small pieces of glass, and be sure that it isn't too fresh as you will easily burn a yard.



If you ever have to buy from a mulch/compost vendor that as part of their compost recipe, receives leaves collected from municipal trucks, don't be surprised when you or your help finds special lil' presents lodged in the topdresser. :cry:

The most common from our experience:
- quantities of fist-sized chunks of asphalt &/or concrete
- aluminum cans & glass bottles, smashed
- various types of foot apparel, especially sandal pieces
- shredded CDs & cassettes
- batteries
- diapers (:cry:)

One relatively remote vendor we used a few years ago actually had the nerve to claim they "screened" their compost, barely missing a beat after we complained about the moderate amount of assorted crap.
The next time we worked in the area I walked through their entire back lot completely unannounced & quizzed two workers as to where exactly their "compost screen" would be.
As expected...I received totally blank stares from both. :hammerhead:

[ICT Bill]

Nope, supposed to have manure and seafood compost along with bedding. I have not gone back to that supplier so I haven't bothered to have it tested. It cost me $21/yd delivered, which is a great price. I can charge $40/yd retail, so there was a good amount of profitability there, if the stuff worked!:hammerhead

Bulk compost is very common here, so I don't have to go the bagged route.

Maybe you have found an inexpensive weedseed control product :)
Inputs do matter with compost maybe something about the lobster shell, if it was fish it shouldn't be an issue

[OrganicsMaine]

There are small particles of sea urchin shells in there, maybe even lobster, but they told me it was sea urchin. What effect would this have on the compost?

[pt03]

Trash in the bags is my nemesis as well. :nono:

Unfortunately, it is what it is. Most of the stuff screens out (http://www.flickr.com/photos/laj2006/3504391063/sizes/l/) but I often get very fine (1/4" down) crushed limestone that is almost impossible to get out.

My compost is very mature so no issue with 'burning' or other damage but I've never had it tested for nutrients/pathogens. I'm not yet convinced it would be worth it in the long run. I don't compost manures.

Lloyd:canadaflag:

[quackgrass]

For those that question what to use based on moral grounds:

It is your moral responsibility to educate the customer about what you are using. READ READ READ! The more you know about it the better.

I give my customers a choice of products so they choose what goes on their ground.

Some are short sighted, bang for the buck types that only want synthetics and miss out on all organics:nono:

Some freak out that biosolids came out of peoples butts, so they want manure based products.

Other people want the awesome results of biosolid products.

At the end of the day, I sleep fine knowing the customer made their own choice.

[OrganicsMaine]

Good policy quack....having the appropriate knowledge, and then being able to explain it to a customer is key. Once you have educated the customer, they can make the decision based on their preferences and wallets.

[dtally]

Since we are talking about bio-solids. Has anyone had experience or know anything about ERTH Food. It is peanut shells mixed with bio-solids and it stinks to high heaven. It also has a very high water content. I think it comes from the Atlanta area (lots of peanuts.)

I used it on my yard (no kids) and it seemed to do a pretty good job. No control plot or anything so it was just my observation. I for one am not into bio-solids. I have heard some horror stories as to what is screened out of bio-solids ranging from prescription drugs to who know what else.

http://www.erthproducts.com

[DeepGreenLawn]

I am pretty sure I did an application using this stuff in my backyard. I still have small wood chips everywhere. This is the reason I was not too impressed. Effect.... I don't think I really noticed any amazing differences... If you have taller turf, fescues, KGB, etc etc then I don't think this would be too much of a problem as far as appearance. But at the same time... doesn't it seem that the wood chips would take N from the soil to finish breaking them down?

I may be wrong on the above statement. My opinion, for what it counts, it wasn't finished enough...

[phasthound]

I am pretty sure I did an application using this stuff in my backyard. I still have small wood chips everywhere. This is the reason I was not too impressed. Effect.... I don't think I really noticed any amazing differences... If you have taller turf, fescues, KGB, etc etc then I don't think this would be too much of a problem as far as appearance. But at the same time... doesn't it seem that the wood chips would take N from the soil to finish breaking them down?

I may be wrong on the above statement. My opinion, for what it counts, it wasn't finished enough...

Bartlett Tree Experts have done studies that show that wood chips decomposing on soil surface does not rob N from the soil as is commonly believed. According to their research wood chips are an issue if incorporated into the soil.

[OrganicsMaine]

If it is in compost, then it very well may make its way into the soil. I wouldn't mind it if it was being used as a mulch, but not for my lawns....have to give kudos to New England Organics and their Earthlife products, very clean from my experience.

[DeepGreenLawn]

I had a feeling I was wrong about that... thanks for the clarification Barry. It still is a problem for me though in that most of my lawns are Bermuda/Zoysia and are kept relatively short so the wood chips are very noticeable especially after a heavy rain.

Fescue lawns, or other cool season, longer turfs would not be as much of an issue as the chips would most likely remain below the blades and not be as visible.