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P.Services
02-03-2010, 10:31 PM
Ok guys lets leave ALL talk of brands out of this thread. This is strictly a financial and feasibility question.

Let me set up the picture and the problem for you to help me with.

Currently my CTL is getting up in age (2,300) hours, ive had some costly repairs done to the machine and also put a new set of tracks on it. As of now it runs great and works hard but if things continue to grow i will be putting 750-1000 hours on the machine per year. I cant see it going to much longer without needing more (expensive) work. As of now i have invested around $45,000 into this machine, have i recouped all that money? NO. But if i sell it for a reasonable rate it will be a wash, lesson learned.

Im struggling with the decision of what to do next? do i....

1) keep running this machine, and making the repairs as needed.

2) sell it and put that money down on a new machine ($60,000)

3) change routes and look at diffrent machines (explanation follows)





Im starting to doubt the feasibility of owning a CTL. Yes the machines are great, yes they work hard, yes they make hard jobs seem easy. But take a quick minute to analyze the numbers associated with owning one,

$64,000- machine plus 6% tax
$8,000- 5 year 5,000 hour warranty
$8,900- interest paid over a 60 month loan at 3.9%
$7,500- 3 sets of off brand tracks
$3,000- oil changes, belts, filters (very basic)
$3,000- repairs not covered under power train/hydro warranty (guess)

very basic cost of ownership for 5 years comes to $ 94,400

from that lets say we sell the machine at auction for $10,000

TOTAL COST- $84,400.00

cost per year- $16,800.00

cost per month- $1406.00

Now this is running a machine for 5,000 hours! that's a lot of hours i know but if i get a warranty the major failures will be covered. The longer i run it the more time i have to recoup my money.

But look at that number, almost a hundred grand to own a machine for five years. my main problem with that is after the five years that machine is WORTHLESS. Its blown out, wore out and ready for the scrap pile. These machine are not like wheel loaders that can run for 15,000 hours and have a major overhaul and run for another 15,000. To do a major overhaul on a CTL just wouldn't be feasible.

Im looking at getting a wheel skid steer and buying vts tracks for it. I dont need tracks all the time. I would say 1/3 of the time i could get by with out them. And for the times they are a must i will use the vts. In addition to this machine i would buy a older wheel loader to do "production" work with. i.e hogging dirt, moving dirt, back filling, moving stone and rock. This machine will make short work of all those tasks. Working together the skid wont "rack up" hours and be worked "hard" it will live a easy life. In addition to this both machines could be used in the winter for snow removal that will surely bring in extra cash flow in the winter months. A CTL basically will sit almost all winter.


what do you guys think, is it worth it? what direction looks right?

Caterkillar
02-03-2010, 10:38 PM
You can't buy a used one with 200hrs for 20k? Deals are all over the place.

I tend to use my machine for damn near nothing. Bought a TL150 last spring for $17,500 and sold it this the winter for $17,800. I had probably about $1000 worth of maintenance/repairs. I just keep flipping them each yearso I really don't have anything in them. I have been able to avoid replacing tracks as well.

P.Services
02-03-2010, 10:40 PM
You can't buy a used one with 200hrs for 20k? Deals are all over the place.



no, not in the size class i need.

wanabe
02-03-2010, 10:42 PM
Just the cost of doing business I guess? I could not justify spending 65K on a new one, so I bought a 3 year old one with 1,000 hours in great shape for 24k. Right or wrong I don't know. But it sure beats working every day to pay the bank!

Caterkillar
02-03-2010, 10:43 PM
no, not in the size class i need.

How bout 30k... that is half of a brand new one. How many hours a year do you put on it right now?

I have seen tl150s for 30k with low hours.

Do you really want to go 60k into debt? You said yourself your machine hasn't even paid for itself so far.

P.Services
02-03-2010, 10:51 PM
and then what? i run it for two years and i have 3,000 hours on it and things are ready the break and im back in the same boat.

J. Peterson Grading
02-03-2010, 10:57 PM
No offense there Pic, but you have to pay to play in this game.

Sure it sucks AZZZZ, but its just how it is.

I don't want to jinx myself and say to much more.

J.

Caterkillar
02-03-2010, 10:58 PM
and then what? i run it for two years and i have 3,000 hours on it and things are ready the break and im back in the same boat.

You could save 20k by buying a machine with 200-300 hours. Worse case scenario, the machine is worth 10k when you are done with it.

If you paid cash for a 30k machine that would save on your interest.

AEL
02-03-2010, 11:04 PM
$45,000 invested so far. Does that include the initial purchase price?

93turbo
02-03-2010, 11:05 PM
Maybe I missed the reason but why do you think its about to die with 2300 hrs on it? Theres only so much you can have break and replace before its mechanically like new again. Also maybe I missed it too but why is there not an option of keeping what you got and buying the wheel loader to make life easier on it? Nothing makes money like a paid off machine

P.Services
02-03-2010, 11:06 PM
No offense there Pic, but you have to pay to play in this game.

Sure it sucks AZZZZ, but its just how it is.

I don't want to jinx myself and say to much more.

J.


im just starting to thinking there is a cheaper way to play. Im just starting to think CTLs are over priced and not built to be run hard.

P.Services
02-03-2010, 11:07 PM
Maybe I missed the reason but why do you think its about to die with 2300 hrs on it? Theres only so much you can have break and replace before its mechanically like new again. Also maybe I missed it too but why is there not an option of keeping what you got and buying the wheel loader to make life easier on it? Nothing makes money like a paid off machine


because i just know this machine and its always ready to break. next will be a engine for 10k and then a hydro pump for 10k then this then that then a final AGAIN then a new undercarriage.

P.Services
02-03-2010, 11:08 PM
$45,000 invested so far. Does that include the initial purchase price?

yes, if i would have bit the bullet i would almost have a new machine paid off in 24 months.

AEL
02-03-2010, 11:09 PM
Can i ask what you are charging that machine out at if it hasnt paid for it self in 2300 hours?

stuvecorp
02-03-2010, 11:09 PM
Dump it, although it may be painful I can agree the hours are up there and if you have good tracks on it you will likely be getting the best price you can. Then go to number 3, first why would you drop 60,000 large on a skid/ctl? Seriously? Find a low hour CTL and get yourself a low hour regular skid, you can still do your loader idea(I don't see the 966 size - too big, the 3 yard class is better). You just spent 60 large and have three pieces to go after work.

AWJ Services
02-03-2010, 11:18 PM
If the difference between 800 dollars a month and 1600 dollars a month means that much to your buisness then maybe you need to quit and do something else. Times are tiugh and no need to run your self into Bankruptcy.

Good Luck.

bobcat_ron
02-03-2010, 11:18 PM
Cheaper to keep her.

P.Services
02-03-2010, 11:21 PM
If the difference between 800 dollars a month and 1600 dollars a month means that much to your buisness then maybe you need to quit and do something else. Times are tiugh and no need to run your self into Bankruptcy.

Good Luck.


its comments like that that just aggravate me.

J. Peterson Grading
02-03-2010, 11:25 PM
I look at it a few ways.

1. I think a skid loader in general should be traded with between 1000 and 1200Hrs. They will still have value, and in my case ASV, I should still have my original tracks.

2. If you think that a CTL isn't built heavy enough, then maybe you should re-evaluate what you are using it for. Light grading and light grubbing = OK. Heavy dozer work on a daily basis = not ok.

3. If you are overworking your machine, then you need to take the next step and either by a dozer or a track loader. Simple as that.

I worked the crap out of my RC50 for 2 years before I got my PT80. Now, that I have options, I can keep repair costs down by using the smaller unit for light duty work and the bigger one for the heavier stuff we get into. I also use my excavators for all my heavy digging, or heavy work in general.

My system seems to work, we haven't tore up equipment like some other guys that only have one equipment option. Not saying we don't break stuff, just we don't have excessive wear and tear.

J

stuvecorp
02-03-2010, 11:28 PM
I look at it a few ways.

1. I think a skid loader in general should be traded with between 1000 and 1200Hrs. They will still have value, and in my case ASV, I should still have my original tracks.

2. If you think that a CTL isn't built heavy enough, then maybe you should re-evaluate what you are using it for. Light grading and light grubbing = OK. Heavy dozer work on a daily basis = not ok.

3. If you are overworking your machine, then you need to take the next step and either by a dozer or a track loader. Simple as that.

I worked the crap out of my RC50 for 2 years before I got my PT80. Now, that I have options, I can keep repair costs down by using the smaller unit for light duty work and the bigger one for the heavier stuff we get into. I also use my excavators for all my heavy digging, or heavy work in general.

My system seems to work, we haven't tore up equipment like some other guys that only have one equipment option. Not saying we don't break stuff, just we don't have excessive wear and tear.

J

Very good stuff J.

Krafty
02-03-2010, 11:31 PM
Ya what are you billing it at? Even with your figures of $84,400 and 5000 hours that thing should have paid for itself long before 5000 hours. I know what you are getting at that it is really expensive to run these machines, but it is not impossible by any means.

P.Services
02-03-2010, 11:32 PM
yes good stuff in that, thankyou. i agree with you, i have one machine and it gets run hard and overworked. thats a fact. i would be doing the same thing as you by buying a loader and a skid. Then they both live a easy life.

P.Services
02-03-2010, 11:35 PM
Ya what are you billing it at? Even with your figures of $84,400 and 5000 hours that thing should have paid for itself long before 5000 hours. I know what you are getting at that it is really expensive to run these machines, but it is not impossible by any means.

i now charge 75 and hour minimum. when i first bought it i did a few as low as 55 but that stopped real fast. On the other hand i have made 2,500 profit with it in one day.

by all means its possible to buy a new machine and pay for itself. no doubt about that. im just thinking that i can still get the work done FASTER by using different machines and invest that extra money i would have spent in other areas.

Krafty
02-03-2010, 11:37 PM
i now charge 75 and hour minimum. when i first bought it i did a few as low as 55 but that stopped real fast. On the other hand i have made 2,500 profit with it in one day.

by all means its possible to buy a new machine and pay for itself. no doubt about that. im just thinking that i can still get the work done FASTER by using different machines and invest that extra money i would have spent in other areas.

I understand what you are getting at. You just have to see what works best for you. I could not justify the expense of having two machines, simply because I do not have enough work to keep them both busy. But that may work better for you as it does for J.

P.Services
02-03-2010, 11:43 PM
i will tell you guys the truth, im about set on buying a wheel machine and just needed a little extra encouragement. im getting a darn near brand new machine (200 hrs) mint mint mint condition for just a few grand more then what my ctl is selling for (if he buys it).

that machine will be paid off in a matter of four weeks, and i will feel comfortable buying a second machine. This is going to allow me to do more work, faster, and be doing two jobs at once. I have spent countless hours thinking about this and im pretty much set.......i think.....

J. Peterson Grading
02-03-2010, 11:48 PM
I wouldn't say its an easy life for either of them.

I will say, its less hard. lol

Thing is, most guys go out and either think or are told that the Biggest CTL they can get will be the solve all end all piece of equipment. Most of these guys end up like you are right now. Frusterated with repair costs and performance in the application that the unit was purchased for.

My 50 has 1100 Hours on it now, the 80 has (I think) 600? I have had the 50 for 4 years and It came with about 100 Hours on the meter. My 80 has been with me for 1.5 years and had 4 hours.

I got the PT80 when my RC50 had something like 500 hours.

The 80 gets alot of hours mowing and pushing snow, but does do alot of normal large skid loader work. The 50 is on jobs where it is ran for an hour here and there, or its plowing snow. Neither get worked at full trottle everyday all day very often.

Now, I have put 1200 hours on both machines in a year and a half. If that would have been just my 50, it would have been either 2000, or it could have been only 600 due to not being able to do what the 80 can do for me.

Now if I were you Pic. I would start looking at a smaller track loader and a smaller CTL. I just looked at ebay and found you a nice Repo Cat 939HST with 3500 Hours. It would be perfect for you. Only $20,000 USD Buy it now. Then I found you a nice Deere CT322 for 22,000 USD. You could have the whole thing for 42000. thats less than a new CTL and you could keep the hours and wear down quite well

J

P.Services
02-03-2010, 11:54 PM
i dont think i will go the trackloader route. that machine will again sit all winter, and a wheel loader allows me to transport dirt much longer distances. I just want to get away from ctls i think, im going to try out a wheel skid and see what i think.

J. Peterson Grading
02-03-2010, 11:59 PM
Fine, I tried hooking you up! I'm buying it then!!

Lol!!

Good luck.

I got to sit in a new Deere D Series today. Nice cabs.
Also sat in a new Mustang, not as nice.
Then sat in a New holland. Not bad at all.

J.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 12:02 AM
i dont want to sit in a new D, it may scatter all my thoughts and before i know it im writing a check and signing some thing.

i like the C series cat cabs though, they are very nice.

Stick Pro
02-04-2010, 12:14 AM
We run our 928G and our 289 side by side on most jobs. A wheel loader is a huge advantage u can move dirt fast, before we bought our wheel loader all we had was track loaders and skid steers, wow what a difference a wheel loader makes. U would be moner ahead getting a wheel loader, u can do so many jobs with it, u will see yourself useing the skidsteer less and less. Good luck, glad to hear u are looking into the cats, we need more cat fans.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 12:23 AM
We run our 928G and our 289 side by side on most jobs. A wheel loader is a huge advantage u can move dirt fast, before we bought our wheel loader all we had was track loaders and skid steers, wow what a difference a wheel loader makes. U would be moner ahead getting a wheel loader, u can do so many jobs with it, u will see yourself useing the skidsteer less and less. Good luck, glad to hear u are looking into the cats, we need more cat fans.

you had me until that last compent!!!!!! we are getting to off on brands AGAIN!!!

i agree with all your comments about wheel loaders, they can do it all. i could finish grade a lot with one or haul dirt a half mile down the road. thats the first machine i ever ran when i was so small i couldn't even sit on the seat. i would just lean up against it and i had to run each leaver with both arms. Now that i look back my dad was out of his mind to let me run that machine, i can remember a few times people started yelling at him about me running it. I love them, cant wait to get back into one. And for sucj a big heavy machine they really will go through A LOT of shet! its takes alot to get my dads old cat stuck and it has open diffs, i cant imagine running a machine with dual diff locks and logger tires.

thats it im set. DONE DEAL

i may even make my old man a offer on his 966. it needs alot of work, basically a complete engine rebuild, new paint, new glass, a little line boring and two doors. it would be so awesome to run that machine again and get it back in A1 shape!!

P.Services
02-04-2010, 12:26 AM
do you have pics of your machines on the site yet?


a 928 is a great size machine. When i say a 966 i think guys worry its a huge machine. A old 966b is not nearly as big as a 966h. not even close. i have seen them side by side and the H just casts a shadow on the B. My dads 966b is no bigger then my neighbors 924 toll carrier. It may weigh more but physically its no bigger.

Shadetree Ltd
02-04-2010, 02:56 AM
5000 hours x $75 = $375,000 This is only if you charge hourly. If you do projects or contract work i have made 2,500 profit with it in one day the $375,000 amount could be much higher. If you feel that a large percentage of your work could be done by a wheeled skid then you probably should re-evaluate your needs. If you add $30/hour for operator expense ($150,000) to your $84,400 you have spent $234,400 to profit a minimum of $ 140,600.
Only you can answer if that is enough for you.

hvy 1ton
02-04-2010, 04:26 AM
Now if I were you Pic. I would start looking at a smaller track loader and a smaller CTL. I just looked at ebay and found you a nice Repo Cat 939HST with 3500 Hours. It would be perfect for you. Only $20,000 USD Buy it now. Then I found you a nice Deere CT322 for 22,000 USD. You could have the whole thing for 42000. thats less than a new CTL and you could keep the hours and wear down quite well

J

If your hoggin dirt with a ctl all the time you should get on of these. Real compact track loaders. One of these and 2 yard wheel loader with a compatible quick coupler on both machines would be a sweet setup. Seriously, how often do you need the small size of a CT332 when your talking about 924G/966B sized wheel loaders, or how often do you use a hi-flow attachment. The opposite direction would be a 1.5yd track loader and and small wheel loader. Something like the kubota R520 or Tak TW65 with a skid steer coupler.

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6356957
http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6440176
http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6960859

Threw in the 605 just to be brand-neutral, they haven't been made long so not any cheaper ones kicking around.

On a side note, JPG don't buy a 939, real track loaders have the engine in the back. It is defiantly not a replacement for the 943, just a downgrade. Stick Pro has strong feelings for them too.:laugh:

curtisfarmer
02-04-2010, 07:54 AM
Picasso, have you considered a TLB alternative? The new M59 is a fair stackup against any CTL/SSL with way lower overall costs (using your anlaysis).

I do not know about high flow with TLB though. Its funny, all my landscaper friends in MA only use SSL and a few CTLs and we argue all the time, then they come to my house and drive my TLBs. They are all impressed but all use the same disclaimer...I need to go into tight places. So do I. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

Your thread has been great, and is scaring me about getting a CTL:)

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-04-2010, 09:38 AM
ill throw a monkey wrench in here, going along the TLB idea, how about a fullsize backhoe? Case 580 or a nice JCB 4CX. The 4cx is able to get through some pretty knarly terrain. Dig depth of over 16'. This adds another facet to your company, you have the ctl for the lighter work, a front loader for moving larger quantities of dirt and grading and then a hoe for trenching work.


http://www.jcbna.com/products/2-construction/2-backhoe-loaders/123-4cx-15/

http://www.argogroup-exact.com/img/MOBEKTI/OBEKT_1951191410976_3.jpg

P.Services
02-04-2010, 11:27 AM
Shadetree, you added in one small aspect to the equation..... A operator. If you really want to break it down you need to add EVERY other expense because that 140,000 is still not all profit. What about fuel that's a big one. How about insurance on the machine, how about buckets and cutting edge replacement there's tons of other expenses. So 140k still isn't even close.
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P.Services
02-04-2010, 11:30 AM
A tlb wouldn't work. Number one I hate them. They can try and do it all and suck equally at everything. I still need to get into tight spaces so that's why a pair of machines one big one small would work. The next thing on the list is a mini excavator so I really don't have a use for a tlb.
Posted via Mobile Device

Mr. Rain
02-04-2010, 12:07 PM
I think part of the problem in the business is that when everybody started going to CTL's, rates didn't go up enough to get paid for the extra productivity and associated costs of ownership. You're getting jobs done faster, but not getting paid enough more for the extra cost of the machine. Granted, you can't bill out every hour of the meter, but your 332 should easily be worth $100/hr with an operator, which would put you closer to 500k revenue on the machine over it's life, 45k in fuel, leaves you with a more healthy and reasonable bottom line. I know, getting it is the hard part, but I think the industry in general has screwed itself on not getting paid what these machines are worth.

curtisfarmer
02-04-2010, 02:10 PM
Having 2 machines sure is great. I personally need both TLB and miniX....having a hoe on tires is sometimes the perfect machine for the job. All my machines are in the same size class, wish I had a bigger miniX though, in between the KX161 and the KX080 would be perfect.:)

Your CTL war stories sound like a nightmare:cry: Would have you gone this route if you thought you would even approach the total repair $s? you have accumulated.

For giggles, you should try out the M59, I think you may be mildly suprised. The spec.s are impressive and the new HST is great. I know you may be one of the many who feel TLBs are not good at anything, I respectfully disagree and find them versatile and negates the need to have many more peices of iron which would certainly do all of their respective tasks much better. It is cost effective for me, but that is only me.

Is there any manufacturer attempting to "refine" the CTL design to remove some of the major $ complaints being discussed here?

Why does stuff like this below even happen???

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/construction-equipment/158882-another-asv-failure-new-post.html

P.Services
02-04-2010, 02:51 PM
I think we will start to see the surge in ctls drop off to almost nothing real fast as the first found starts to get older in age. These dealers all claim to me that they will go to 5,000 hours without a problem but then when I ask what their customers have for hours so far no one has over 2,000 yet. A lot of guys like bobcat ron use these machines but they don't use them for 8 hours a day every day working hard hard heard every day. Who wants a machine you have to pu ssy foot around with because your afraid to break it? I can tell you right now I could snap the welds on my deeres arms within five minutes by really working it. I know this so I have to be care full with what I do. Why make a machine that can lift so much if the rest of the machine around it can't support that kind of power? Just wait till other guys on this site start getting higher hours on there machines, its going to happen to EVERY ONE OF YOU. I guarantee it. Trade it in at 2,000 and take a beating or get ready to walk out of the dealer with a rubber hanging out your butt. These machines are not built right period. Why should a little piece of bailing twine cripple a 5,000 dollar final drive? Your telling me we can't come up with a way to guard that seal? We can't make that seal replaceable? Come on, its a joke. A set of tracks for 5,000 from the dealer but 2,000 from ebay? Huh? Come on. Go drive behind michigan cat and see a row of mtls having the undercarrige replaced. Is my thinking off on this? I just believe a 75,000 machine should have a use full life of more then 2,000 hours. I really do. 2,000 hours is a snack!! I could do that in two years easy!! If they can't make a machine that lasts then they shouldn't be selling them period.

The very last thing I'm looking into is renting or leasing a ctl. This would give me a brand new machine for 8 months of the year and then I give it back. This will avoid buying tracks, making repairs, the finance charges, all the uncertainty is avoided.
Posted via Mobile Device

swanny
02-04-2010, 03:27 PM
One of THE main costs involved with machinery is buying new.

I had my car dealer's license and have bought, repaired (many new that were totaled with certificate of origins), driven and sold many a vehicle over the past twenty years. If you buy used with discretion and discernment you'll come out much farther ahead financially. I've bought one truck brand new after 10 years of being self-employed...my CPA told me it would be good to establish some credit (didn't even have a credit card). Paid it off in a year. That was ten years ago...best thing I ever did.

Same goes with equipment...no difference. You can cut your purchase price sometimes in half by buying a used low-hour machine. Use it, take care of it as much as you possibly can and find the niche in the market that allows you to sell it when it has a certain amount of hours on it, and you'll find that your final operating costs will drop significantly. Trust me. :)

P.Services
02-04-2010, 04:03 PM
I understand that but that still doesn't change the longevity of the machines life. Ok I find a machine with 500 hours and save a lot of money but in 1500 hours that machine is a money pit again.
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Ozz
02-04-2010, 04:15 PM
Hogging dirt & pushing are not a CTL's domain. That's why the 941/943 was so popular. They weren't huge, fecon makes a big head to fit a track loader too. I'd rebuild my CTL, find a small REAL track loader, (cat has made the 935,939,941 and 943) The 941s seem to last forever between rebuilds and are easy to maintain but a little harder to run than the newer HST 939 and 943. The 935 is a puss, and the 939 isn't much better. A 931 wouldn't be much better than a CTL in my opinion. a 943 would be my 1st choice... (COME ON CAT,GIVE US A 943D!) I don't know crap about the JD 605, so I can't tell you anything about them.

I have seat time in TLB and don't think they suck... If you do utilities thier the only machine you ever need..

SellingIron
02-04-2010, 04:25 PM
If you put that many hours on a machine in that short amount of time. Renting is the way to go right now. Rental houses are renting units for nothing..(RSC,Hertz,United Rentals,Sunbelt)

If I have a customer thats looking to run that much, he would be on a 24 or 36 month loan. Anything more and he's upside down in the trade. Trade numbers are down these days and so are the new sale numbers. A customer is better off walking in with no trade. You can make more selling the used CTL/Skid yourself...

We sell aftermarket T250/T300 tracks for $2,450.00 a set. They have the same C-pattern and warranty as factory tracks...

swanny
02-04-2010, 04:26 PM
I understand that but that still doesn't change the longevity of the machines life. Ok I find a machine with 500 hours and save a lot of money but in 1500 hours that machine is a money pit again.
Posted via Mobile Device

That's way too absolute for me to swallow. Lots of variables here. Obviously the more labor you can contribute towards maintenance and repairs - the more you save.

Some CTL's like Takkie have more of a track record for longevity than others. Their undercarriage parts also costs less than others and also may be rebuilt.

You can also find a used ctl with way less than 500 hrs., and 1500 hrs. is not necessarily the time to view a machine as a money pit. Again, this is based on my (limited) experience, and also the time I've taken to speak with many about their experiences.

ga site works
02-04-2010, 04:30 PM
Mr. Rain is right. When we aquired our CTL rates did not line up with the added productivity per day. Think I saw about a $ 50-75 per day increase.

I nor anyone I know running CAT, Case, New Holland, Bobcat or whatever CTLs have not seen over a 1500 hr track life, and genarally with a track replacement comes some u/c repairs. CTL's definetiely have their applications; no doubt, but IMO a wheeled machine is better for "all around use", be it tractor or skid.

treemover
02-04-2010, 04:37 PM
wtf with the TLB's?! Worthless. Here is simple solution keep your machine and buy a wheel loader. problem solved. A new skid and new vts isnt going to be cheaper than a ctl. operating costs....tell me what they are on a skid with vts and 5,000hrs. I bet its going to be high. Ran many hours on a skid with OT tracks and replaced a lot of drive chains, pumps and motors

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-04-2010, 05:20 PM
when you mention TLB's are you talking about AG tractors with FEL's and hoes mounted on them? Like JD110's, Kubota L39's and M59's or do you apply the term TLB to JD 410's, Cat 430's etc...?

b/c if you think that backhoes are worthless then all the contractors, large and small must be doing something wrong b/c backhoes are in wide use around here and are beaten on and many very old units are still running.

treemover
02-04-2010, 05:29 PM
when you mention TLB's are you talking about AG tractors with FEL's and hoes mounted on them? Like JD110's, Kubota L39's and M59's or do you apply the term TLB to JD 410's, Cat 430's etc...?

b/c if you think that backhoes are worthless then all the contractors, large and small must be doing something wrong b/c backhoes are in wide use around here and are beaten on and many very old units are still running.

This is for a different thread all together. But if he is have a hard time keeping a ctl alive a tlb is not going to be the ticket.

one quick pun....backhoes and x's are great, tlb's are not. why are people going to a skid and mini then. lot more production.

But picasso, I think it may be time to buy some heavy equipment.

stuvecorp
02-04-2010, 05:34 PM
I think we will start to see the surge in ctls drop off to almost nothing real fast as the first found starts to get older in age. These dealers all claim to me that they will go to 5,000 hours without a problem but then when I ask what their customers have for hours so far no one has over 2,000 yet. A lot of guys like bobcat ron use these machines but they don't use them for 8 hours a day every day working hard hard heard every day. Who wants a machine you have to pu ssy foot around with because your afraid to break it? I can tell you right now I could snap the welds on my deeres arms within five minutes by really working it. I know this so I have to be care full with what I do. Why make a machine that can lift so much if the rest of the machine around it can't support that kind of power? Just wait till other guys on this site start getting higher hours on there machines, its going to happen to EVERY ONE OF YOU. I guarantee it. Trade it in at 2,000 and take a beating or get ready to walk out of the dealer with a rubber hanging out your butt. These machines are not built right period. Why should a little piece of bailing twine cripple a 5,000 dollar final drive? Your telling me we can't come up with a way to guard that seal? We can't make that seal replaceable? Come on, its a joke. A set of tracks for 5,000 from the dealer but 2,000 from ebay? Huh? Come on. Go drive behind michigan cat and see a row of mtls having the undercarrige replaced. Is my thinking off on this? I just believe a 75,000 machine should have a use full life of more then 2,000 hours. I really do. 2,000 hours is a snack!! I could do that in two years easy!! If they can't make a machine that lasts then they shouldn't be selling them period.

The very last thing I'm looking into is renting or leasing a ctl. This would give me a brand new machine for 8 months of the year and then I give it back. This will avoid buying tracks, making repairs, the finance charges, all the uncertainty is avoided.
Posted via Mobile Device

If you are doing stuff that can tear up your machine that easy then you need to get something bigger, more like a track loader. I personally don't see any use in keeping a machine for 5,000 hours, the highest hour machine is our ASV and that only has 1100 hours in six years. I don't know in the future but I have been able to trade out and not take a beating on just about every machine so far except the Mustang. I had two wheel loaders and they were useful but they were smaller than a 966, that's a four yard machine.

ProTouch Groundscapes
02-04-2010, 05:41 PM
This is for a different thread all together. But if he is have a hard time keeping a ctl alive a tlb is not going to be the ticket.

one quick pun....backhoes and x's are great, tlb's are not. why are people going to a skid and mini then. lot more production.

But picasso, I think it may be time to buy some heavy equipment.

for me TLB= Kubota L39, M59, JD 110 etc... small machines
Backhoe= Case 580, JD 310+, Cat 450 etc...

I agree that a skid and mini is more productive, but when isnt having a dedicated machine for each aspect not more productive? if you have the work to keep them busy.

for the type of work picasso is doing with his ctl, most companies are running trackloaders, wheel loaders and hoes on the jobsite. his ctl worked for him in the beginning but hes at the point where his workload exceeds his current ability and hes trying to meet it and burning out his machine in the process.

Fieldman12
02-04-2010, 06:01 PM
Picasso, allot of things you complain about with the CTL's is the same complaints I here around here. I know guys that run them day in and day out. Most of the guys I know have tried to keep them to 2000 hours and ran into major repairs as you have. There comments to me is from now on we wont keep a CTL past one year (around 1300 hours)and may eventually go to the VTS system if things dont improve soon. I read an article the other day in the Grading and Excavation Contractor magazine comparing small wheel loaders,CTLs, and skid loaders. One comment in there by Bobcat was they use the same frame for both CTL's and skidsteers. They claimed the machine frame was built strong enough for both applications. I think this brand and many other brands if run to 5,000 hours or so may run into some weld issues. Another comment a buddy of mine made to me that has owned 3 or four CTL's now said I feel sorry for any guy buying one of these to make a little money on the side because one break down and he is done. Another person on here made a good point also about what people are charging per hour such as $75.00 an hour that you throwed out there is really not enough money for this type of machine. A guy can bid by the job to make some extra money but that dont help ya any if a skidsteer guy can do the job and operate for less. Often this machine is looked at by the residential community as a skid steer on tracks and no more than that. Most wont pay you more even if it does more work. I think this is probably the biggest issue with CTL's besides the issue of the high repair rate. I had another good buddy I know tell me one of his relatives is an engineer for a major player and his words these CTL's are designed for a life of no longer than 2,000 hours. He said they do have the technology to make them last longer out there but it has not been yet put into the machines. I for one want to switch to a CTL but IM waiting till the life expectancy is closer to what the bigger machines run. Granted normally a smaller motors life will not last as long as a bigger motor but the issue allot of times is final drives and hydraulic pumps.

treemover
02-04-2010, 06:02 PM
for me TLB= Kubota L39, M59, JD 110 etc... small machines
Backhoe= Case 580, JD 310+, Cat 450 etc...

I agree that a skid and mini is more productive, but when isnt having a dedicated machine for each aspect not more productive? if you have the work to keep them busy.

for the type of work picasso is doing with his ctl, most companies are running trackloaders, wheel loaders and hoes on the jobsite. his ctl worked for him in the beginning but hes at the point where his workload exceeds his current ability and hes trying to meet it and burning out his machine in the process.
A skid and mini are more productive and versatile.
I was in picasso's shoes before, stepped up to bigger machines and have never been happier.

curtisfarmer
02-04-2010, 07:19 PM
Treemover....a skid and mini are great and so are other combos too. Any wheeled machine of compararble size should be a viable comparison in this thread. Isn't the OP looking for what options are out there?

Picasso, I like your comments on why things are not engineered "better" now with some history for the CTL market to ID what is bad and what is good. Why isn't this so?? You would figure the 1st person to develop a CTL at a substantially lower operating cost would clean house with market share.:weightlifter:

Stick Pro
02-04-2010, 07:49 PM
Did u make your final decision today. That older 966 sounds like a good machine would love to see some pics of it, i saw an older 966 driving down the road today. That machine will get some work done. Not to big but not to small.

wanabe
02-04-2010, 07:57 PM
I think part of the problem is the price they charge for a new ctl. How in the world does it cost them 65k to make them?

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:00 PM
Haaa you don't want pics of the one I'm looking at buying. Its old and decrepd, flat tire, no decals. But I love that machine. Any other 966 would do but it won't be "that" one. You guys know the sound when your pushing as hard as the machine will go and right when you let off you hear that quick little whine from the turbo? That's the best part.
Posted via Mobile Device

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:10 PM
I think part of the problem is the price they charge for a new ctl. How in the world does it cost them 65k to make them?

i agree. i think there is also a 20,000 profit for the dealer on top of that.

i would like to buy a 2,000 hour machine that still has a little warranty left so i can purchase a extended warranty for 5,000 hours and give deere a little taste of their own medicine when they have to replace every major component at no cost to me.:laugh::laugh:

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:14 PM
our ASV and that only has 1100 hours in six years.

that machine in my eyes is a ticking time bomb and your playing hot potato with it. your gona wait and wait and then real quick throw it to the dealer!

just wait it will happen

MOREDIRT
02-04-2010, 08:17 PM
The reason guys buy ctls is they are easy to transport and can do many jobs and are very productive for their size. When you go to a bigger machine your overhead goes up. Tires and parts for a big wheel loader are not cheap and require a bigger truck. If you are used to a ctl and go to a skid steer you will hate life we have both and never use the skids. I don't understand the Vts logic it cost 5-10k and you still have all of the added cost of a ctl vts tracks wear out too. Who is really going to haul a machine back to the shop jack it up and switch to tires or vts it would take 2 guys a couple of hours to do this. If you add it up I would bet you are losing money with VTS. If you think a ctl only has a 2000 hrs lifespan you are crazy the motor in your 332 is the same one in the small deere dozers and they run for 7k hours before a rebuild.

Shadetree Ltd
02-04-2010, 08:21 PM
Shadetree, you added in one small aspect to the equation..... A operator. If you really want to break it down you need to add EVERY other expense because that 140,000 is still not all profit. What about fuel that's a big one. How about insurance on the machine, how about buckets and cutting edge replacement there's tons of other expenses. So 140k still isn't even close.

Well technically, you shouldn't consider an operator or any of the other expenses you mentioned because they will be relatively the same on a wheeled skid.

YellowDogSVC
02-04-2010, 08:22 PM
The reason guys buy ctls is they are easy to transport and can do many jobs and are very productive for their size. When you go to a bigger machine your overhead goes up. Tires and parts for a big wheel loader are not cheap and require a bigger truck. If you are used to a ctl and go to a skid steer you will hate life we have both and never use the skids. I don't understand the Vts logic it cost 5-10k and you still have all of the added cost of a ctl vts tracks wear out too. Who is really going to haul a machine back to the shop jack it up and switch to tires or vts it would take 2 guys a couple of hours to do this. If you add it up I would bet you are losing money with VTS. If you think a ctl only has a 2000 hrs lifespan you are crazy the motor in your 332 is the same one in the small deere dozers and they run for 7k hours before a rebuild.

what are you running?

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:29 PM
Did u make your final decision today. That older 966 sounds like a good machine would love to see some pics of it, i saw an older 966 driving down the road today. That machine will get some work done. Not to big but not to small.

yes, if my machine sells (knock on wood, watch me have to keep it) im going to get a 272c and get used vts tracks for it. Then im going to get a 966b (hopefully with a balderson qc and a set of forks and root grapple) Then after that a 305c cr mini. then a year or two latter a finish grade dozer. but that dozer wont be for awhile.

i really think that loader will turn into my main machine though. Shoot i could dig a walkout basement with a loader and a mini, i will cut the walls with the mini so i have a perfect straight edge and then get inside with the loader and hog it within a foot and then put the mini inside to cut the grade perfect.

this assortment of machines is also taking the eggs out of one basket and putting them in to three separate ones. My ctl gets used in ONE development only, it works good there but any other landscape jobs i do are normally in town with pavement and driveways all around. For all my other work a skid would be the ideal machine. And i will also have a ideal machine for snow removal. What im saying is, if that one development goes belly up (and i belive its close) i wont be totally out of luck because i have plenty of work outside of it for all three machines.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:31 PM
The reason guys buy ctls is they are easy to transport and can do many jobs and are very productive for their size. When you go to a bigger machine your overhead goes up. Tires and parts for a big wheel loader are not cheap and require a bigger truck. If you are used to a ctl and go to a skid steer you will hate life we have both and never use the skids. I don't understand the Vts logic it cost 5-10k and you still have all of the added cost of a ctl vts tracks wear out too. Who is really going to haul a machine back to the shop jack it up and switch to tires or vts it would take 2 guys a couple of hours to do this. If you add it up I would bet you are losing money with VTS. If you think a ctl only has a 2000 hrs lifespan you are crazy the motor in your 332 is the same one in the small deere dozers and they run for 7k hours before a rebuild.

you must not have higher hours on your machines, come talk to me then. Im not worried at all about the engine. Im worried about final drives, the hydro pumps and the undercarriage.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Well technically, you shouldn't consider an operator or any of the other expenses you mentioned because they will be relatively the same on a wheeled skid.

i should consider them and all the others because we were looking at the big picture to see how much money you actually put in your pocket at the end of that five years.

does anyone else get the magazine "equipment world" ?

they do a real nice job in there every month of taking one type of machine and breaking it down with the cost of ownership into many different levels. Then they write a nice little article about the ins and outs of that type of machine.

any one else know what im talking about??

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:38 PM
i sure hope the guy thinking about buying my machine doesnt find this thread!!!!



does anyone else on this site want to by a nice dependable machine??

Scag48
02-04-2010, 08:38 PM
I think you will be sadly disappointed with the "hogging" abilities going into bank material with a wheel loader. You can do it, absolutely, but it's a slow go digging bank material. Even with newer loaders, you just can't make it happen quickly. You need a track loader, that's a definate solution. If you're willing to jump up to a 966 size wheel loader, obviously you have the means to transport a larger machine. A 953 sounds like it would do all you need. I'm no track loader guru, trust me, but if you're looking to hog a sh!t load of bank material with a loader, you gotta have tracks. Buy something older, the older machines run FOREVER.

bobcat_ron
02-04-2010, 08:45 PM
If it makes you feel better, my brother replaced a drive motor seal last year on the D4, the culprit was baling string, so that sh*t is something to look out for, any wire or rope you get in the sprockets is a disaster waiting to happen.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:46 PM
I think you will be sadly disappointed with the "hogging" abilities going into bank material with a wheel loader. Even with newer loaders, you just can't make it happen with tires. You need a track loader, that's a definate solution. If you're willing to jump up to a 966 size wheel loader, obviously you have the means to transport a larger machine. A 953 sounds like it would do all you need. I'm no track loader guru, trust me, but if you're looking to hog a sh!t load of bank material with a loader, you gotta have tracks. Buy something older, the older machines run FOREVER.

no way thats a bunch of bull crap. i strongly disagree. that 966 even with 50% worn tires will fill that bucket with ease. Even digging into the side of a scraper made topsoil pile it will be easy. I do have a lot of seat time in a loader i wouldnt second guess its power. I will NEVER own a track loader NEVER. i have a thousand different reasons why it wont work for me.

i do agree with the older remark. i normally would take the 15,000 and make that my down payment on a lightly used loader in the 75-100 range and just pay it off. But in this case i dont need nor want the new high tech electronics and gizmose and emissions bs. a old machine will be bought and paid for and make me money for the next 40 years.

im going to call cat soon and see what a total engine rebuild kit cost for that machine. i bet its under 5 grand.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:47 PM
If it makes you feel better, my brother replaced a drive motor seal last year on the D4, the culprit was baling string, so that sh*t is something to look out for, any wire or rope you get in the sprockets is a disaster waiting to happen.

that and that rope the concrete guys use for a string line. that stuff is tuff as nails. its just unacceptable for that to happen. I guarantee to you i could make a solution to stop that problem.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 08:50 PM
http://catused.cat.com/en/Equipment/CATERPILLAR/SKID-STEER-LOADERS/272c/1228353/More-Photos.aspx

check it out, what do you guys think?

Digdeep
02-04-2010, 08:57 PM
I think we will start to see the surge in ctls drop off to almost nothing real fast as the first found starts to get older in age. These dealers all claim to me that they will go to 5,000 hours without a problem but then when I ask what their customers have for hours so far no one has over 2,000 yet. A lot of guys like bobcat ron use these machines but they don't use them for 8 hours a day every day working hard hard heard every day. Who wants a machine you have to pu ssy foot around with because your afraid to break it? I can tell you right now I could snap the welds on my deeres arms within five minutes by really working it. I know this so I have to be care full with what I do. Why make a machine that can lift so much if the rest of the machine around it can't support that kind of power? Just wait till other guys on this site start getting higher hours on there machines, its going to happen to EVERY ONE OF YOU. I guarantee it. Trade it in at 2,000 and take a beating or get ready to walk out of the dealer with a rubber hanging out your butt. These machines are not built right period. Why should a little piece of bailing twine cripple a 5,000 dollar final drive? Your telling me we can't come up with a way to guard that seal? We can't make that seal replaceable? Come on, its a joke. A set of tracks for 5,000 from the dealer but 2,000 from ebay? Huh? Come on. Go drive behind michigan cat and see a row of mtls having the undercarrige replaced. Is my thinking off on this? I just believe a 75,000 machine should have a use full life of more then 2,000 hours. I really do. 2,000 hours is a snack!! I could do that in two years easy!! If they can't make a machine that lasts then they shouldn't be selling them period.

The very last thing I'm looking into is renting or leasing a ctl. This would give me a brand new machine for 8 months of the year and then I give it back. This will avoid buying tracks, making repairs, the finance charges, all the uncertainty is avoided.
Posted via Mobile Device

Picasso...I feel for your frustration because I know you've had some final drive issues. Unfortunately, no single OEM is immune to problems.

As much as I hate to say it...you're wrong as far as the CTL market going away. All of the sales data and historical numbers show just the opposite. Every year (the current economy has had an impact on all types of machines), the CTL market grows at the expense of other machinery- SSLs, backhoes, CUTs, etc. I remember talking to a friend of mine middle of last year who is a regional manager overlooking a large portion of the US for Bobcat and he said that the SSL to CTL ratio in FL 5 years ago was about 70/30 and it is now 30/70 the other way.

I saw this trend here in WI many moons ago when I saw my first ASV MD70. At first, I thought they were a joke because thay had all of these friggin grease points in that undercarriage and they were absolutely fugly. Before I knew it, some of my Bobcat customers had one to go along with the skid I had sold them, and then the skid I had sold them (not in all cases) was gone too, replaced because that little piece of crap ASV could do most everything that skid could do, but much faster and more efficiently. It also allowed my customers to contract work they couldn't have gotten prior to owning that piece of crap machine. Takeuchi was out there too, but I didn't really see them up here, and I really don't now.

At this point, most people still looked at these "rubber tracked thingy's" as niche machines, and even Bobcat continuously discounted them at our training in AZ. But alas, before you could snap your fingers the 864 was born!! Instantaneously overnight the CTL market was validated by Bobcat and their abortion of a CTL- the 864. Soon the T200 was borne and others came to the party, CAT, Case, NH, etc.

I think you will see CTLs continue to improve in terms of operating cost and reliability. They most definitely won't go away though. I know you're the minority, but if you ask most people who own CTL if they would go strictly back to a SSL they'll tell you "hell no". So climb onboard and enjoy the ride, or find a machine that does what the CTL (one machine) can do in terms of productivity, size, flexibility, transportability, etc. without the cost......the rest of us will be waiting to hear from.

stuvecorp
02-04-2010, 09:01 PM
that machine in my eyes is a ticking time bomb and your playing hot potato with it. your gona wait and wait and then real quick throw it to the dealer!

just wait it will happen

It will nickle and dime some but if I keep it on the proper job size it will last a long time. I will have to do a motor in the future but I will probably never sell it, it's paid for.

The Aussie's are doing stuff to the ASV's and are getting massive long life out of undercarriages, I would like to know why the dealers here aren't doing it.

Caterkillar
02-04-2010, 09:07 PM
http://catused.cat.com/en/Equipment/CATERPILLAR/SKID-STEER-LOADERS/272c/1228353/More-Photos.aspx

check it out, what do you guys think?

Doesn't say the hours, but looks alot better than 60k!

Another thought... why not get a 262B that is a couple years old with 2-300 hours for 20-25k? Didn't ETW get his set up with VTS for less than 25k and with real low hours?

P.Services
02-04-2010, 09:10 PM
i had some gal running a print shop out of her basement tell me she is $60.00 an hour to do design work on the computer. I asked her if she knew what a ctl is, she said no.

she knows all about them now, what they cost to run, what they cost knew, how much the market supports to charge per hour.

it wasnt her day.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 09:11 PM
Doesn't say the hours, but looks alot better than 60k!

Another thought... why not get a 262B that is a couple years old with 2-300 hours for 20-25k? Didn't ETW get his set up with VTS for less than 25k and with real low hours?

sorry try that page.

http://catused.cat.com/en/Equipment/CATERPILLAR/SKID-STEER-LOADERS/272c/1228353/For-Sale.aspx

im going to offer 28k for this machine. i dont want a b, i want a c and the nice cab and improvements.

MOREDIRT
02-04-2010, 09:16 PM
Good deal I would try to get them down to 28k I bought a 262c high flow cab amics every option you could get with 180 hrs for 29k back in june. I really like the machine and I always want to use it but with out tracks it just sits. I thought the rear visibility would be a problem but after spending some time in the machine I don't notice it. It sucks not being able to get out of the machine with the arms up.

Digdeep
02-04-2010, 09:22 PM
It will nickle and dime some but if I keep it on the proper job size it will last a long time. I will have to do a motor in the future but I will probably never sell it, it's paid for.

The Aussie's are doing stuff to the ASV's and are getting massive long life out of undercarriages, I would like to know why the dealers here aren't doing it.

I think there is a an Australian guy that comes on here every once in awhile that talks about some of the things they do.

I've been really happy with the RC50 I have. I'd like some of the updated things on the new machines- more ROC, metal face seals, etc. but mine is paid for too. I just put tracks on early Fall at just over 2000hrs on the meter and luckily it hasn't bit me yet as far as any big repairs. I'm pretty nit picky on my PM though, and I realize that it is only a 5300lb machine and not a D3.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 09:26 PM
Good deal I would try to get them down to 28k I bought a 262c high flow cab amics every option you could get with 180 hrs for 29k back in june. I really like the machine and I always want to use it but with out tracks it just sits. I thought the rear visibility would be a problem but after spending some time in the machine I don't notice it. It sucks not being able to get out of the machine with the arms up.


look man your bringing me down. im thinking of those days i work when its so muddy you cant even walk, my machine just climbs the hills and people just shake their heads because they cant believe it.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 09:35 PM
moredirt, have you thought about over the tire steel tracks? they will make a world of difference.

MOREDIRT
02-04-2010, 10:04 PM
I am looking for a set with the rubber pads just waiting until I find a deal on some. Do you have to use spacers on the 262c?

P.Services
02-04-2010, 10:07 PM
i have no idea to tell you the truth.

I may just end up getting steel and not getting the vts if i buy that machine. I dont really work in "sensitive" areas so i can tear the woods to death.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 10:10 PM
would be a good machine for 10 grand less...

http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-CAT-272C-Caterpillar-SKID-STEER-LOADER-280-HRS_W0QQitemZ120517785588QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSkid_Steel_Loaders?hash=item1c0f6b77f4

Scag48
02-04-2010, 11:12 PM
no way thats a bunch of bull crap. i strongly disagree. that 966 even with 50% worn tires will fill that bucket with ease. Even digging into the side of a scraper made topsoil pile it will be easy. I do have a lot of seat time in a loader i wouldnt second guess its power. I will NEVER own a track loader NEVER. i have a thousand different reasons why it wont work for me.

i do agree with the older remark. i normally would take the 15,000 and make that my down payment on a lightly used loader in the 75-100 range and just pay it off. But in this case i dont need nor want the new high tech electronics and gizmose and emissions bs. a old machine will be bought and paid for and make me money for the next 40 years.

im going to call cat soon and see what a total engine rebuild kit cost for that machine. i bet its under 5 grand.

Like I said, bank material is a PITA. A scraper pile? Material that's been handled once is no longer bank material. Of course a loader will fill the bucket with that material easy, grabbing out of a pile is what they do best. I'm talking about excavating with a loader, getting the bucket in the ground and making cuts is an uphill battle with wheel loader, especially in any sort of hardpan. Maybe your soil is a little easier to get into (I don't wanna sound like GR, though:laugh:) but it's a piss poor way to make cuts out here. I've been given a loader to do jobs that should have been done with a dozer, you can make due but it's not productive whatsoever. I can understand doing that kind of work with a loader occasionally if that's the only option you had, however buying the most productive machine for your scope of work is key to staying alive, especially right now.

Bleed Green
02-04-2010, 11:17 PM
i dont think i will go the trackloader route. that machine will again sit all winter, and a wheel loader allows me to transport dirt much longer distances. I just want to get away from ctls i think, im going to try out a wheel skid and see what i think.

Do you think flat tires would be bad with a wheeled skid? That is one benefit of a CTL.

P.Services
02-04-2010, 11:33 PM
websters definition- Scraper pile, a pile of topsoil made with scrapers, commonly done when they are stripping a new area of topsoil for development and stock piling it. The pile is made in very small lifts of 2-4" and is driven over countless times making it harder then virgin dirt. It will leave you shaking your head and cussing the scrapers out.

yeah we must have diffrent dirt because that loader will make a 2' cut in virgin clay like no ones business.

i can just see that old girl now..... im going to fix her all up into tip top shape, paint it my custom green color, tint the windows, install the small high output lights from a deere dozer on the roof in a custom made steel enclosure, put logging tires on it, sound proof and insulate the cab, install a highback air ride seat and have a chrome exhaust stack made for it :cool2: you guys just wait, mark my words.

Scag48
02-04-2010, 11:55 PM
Dude, I had a brain fart. :laugh: I'm sitting here thinking "okay, a loose pile, what's tough about that?" Then I couldn't combine the scraper part for the life of me to make sense. I just don't associate scrapers making a "pile" but I see what you mean now. :drinkup: And you're right, pans running over anything loaded will hammer that fill in incredibly well. We used an 824C wheel dozer last summer to assist with compaction in a large fill, worked like a charm.

P.Services
02-05-2010, 12:18 AM
yeah i had a guy ask me to doze down a 1,000 yard scraper pile of topsoil last year.... that was the first time i had worked on one. I got it done but it was a learning experience.

i believe that pile took about 30hours but aged the machine 300 hours.

Bleed Green
02-05-2010, 12:23 AM
yeah i had a guy ask me to doze down a 1,000 yard scraper pile of topsoil last year.... that was the first time i had worked on one. I got it done but it was a learning experience.

i believe that pile took about 30hours but aged the machine 300 hours.

You used your CTL to do this? Sounds like one heck of a task.

P.Services
02-05-2010, 12:42 AM
slow and steady won the race. i just chipped away at it and got it done. 1,000 yards really isnt that big of a pile. going from a smooth bucket to a tooth bucket made the difference though.

Bleed Green
02-05-2010, 01:16 AM
ya a toothed bucket would allow you to dig in better for sure.

Premier Landscaping
02-05-2010, 08:18 AM
I ask what their customers have for hours so far no one has over 2,000 yet. A lot of guys like bobcat ron use these machines but they don't use them for 8 hours a day every day working hard hard heard every day. Who wants a machine you have to pu ssy foot around with because your afraid to break it? I can tell you right now I could snap the welds on my deeres arms within five minutes by really working it. I know this so I have to be care full with what I do. Why make a machine that can lift so much if the rest of the machine around it can't support that kind of power? Just wait till other guys on this site start getting higher hours on there machines, its going to happen to EVERY ONE OF YOU. I guarantee it.

The very last thing I'm looking into is renting or leasing a ctl. This would give me a brand new machine for 8 months of the year and then I give it back. This will avoid buying tracks, making repairs, the finance charges, all the uncertainty is avoided.
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I have never understood manufacturers making a machine able to outlift its bounds either. I know cat takes a big hit from people, because it cant lift as much as most other manufacturers. I have three cats and will admit from experience that bobcat, case, and deere have not used any other brand will be able to barrel into a pile of dirt and lift straight up out, and I can't, but I have no problem backing up while lifting and getting my 80 inch bucket heaped, and no possibility of getting more in it everytime with ease. So I always wondered why would I even want the machine to be able to lift straight out and put all that extra stress on the pins, arms, and front idler wheels as the back end starts to lift off the ground, if I couldn't get any more dirt in the bucket anyways? JMO. So far I have two tracked machines with VTS around the 1300-1400 hour mark. I was looking to trade at 2500 hours I think that will be my best value, since at heart they are wheeled machines and will still be able to bring 15-20K both fully loaded, and I was quoted 39K for a new 252B last month as I thought about trading this year, but I dont think mine will lose much value the next 1000 hours. Of course if one or both start having repairs I will make the trade sooner so only time will tell.

The leasing option may be a good route for you. I leased my 252B in 07 as it was my first year and that kept my payment lower, and I was a little nervous about a high payment. I got my lease for 560 a month plus tax which comes to 600 a month. Only downfall is if you put a 1000 hours a year on it, mine only allows 700, and Im guessing a higher hour lease option would increase the price quite a bit.

Caterkillar
02-05-2010, 08:56 AM
sorry try that page.

http://catused.cat.com/en/Equipment/CATERPILLAR/SKID-STEER-LOADERS/272c/1228353/For-Sale.aspx

im going to offer 28k for this machine. i dont want a b, i want a c and the nice cab and improvements.

So you are going to spend an extra 10-15k for nicer looking machine and a nicer cab? I thought your goal was to expand your business? Which would mean YOU would not be in the skid steer right?

Caterkillar
02-05-2010, 09:39 AM
I know this is far away.

http://okaloosa.craigslist.org/grd/1575260157.html

http://knoxville.craigslist.org/bfs/1585099841.html

bobcatexc
02-05-2010, 12:22 PM
I don't know what Michigan soil conditions are, but I alway thought they where like around here with soft underfooting and I can't even imagine trying to dig basements with a wheel loader. I've ran my share of wheel and track loaders but a 953/963 will do circles around a wheel loader in heavy cut/dozing areas especially this time of year with wet soil, now if you have conditions like calif, colorado, idaho like alot of rock it will work fine. Around here nobody uses a high lift for basements anymore cause half the time they will rut up the bottom of the floor to bad. I don't see how you'll be competive with a wheel loader/305 digging basements anyway. Plus to backfill/final grade you will have to bring two machines to do a good job which will more costly.

I guess if your dads basically giving it to you that be another story. Plus you can move it yourself as long as it's not to far.

I vote - 953/skidsteer or 120/skidsteer

wanabe
02-05-2010, 12:51 PM
How do you plan to dig basements cost wise? The guys that dig them arround here use a 200 hoe and are done in 4 hours. You are going to spend 4 hours just moving the skid, mini ex, and wheel loader to the job. Basment digging don't even pay enough to me. Too many cut throat operators out there doing it.

Ausman
02-05-2010, 04:04 PM
Rc50 4200hrs
Rc50 2790hrs
Rc30 2600hrs
Charge out rate 110- per hr plus tax

If there was a time bomb my ass would be grass.

When i got back after 6 weeks vacation i was annoyed i had to buy a relay!!
Sob sob sob
Someone hit it on the head. use the machines for what they are designed for and charge accordingly. To a person every one i go and assess their earthmoving business for profitability is using a machine that is far too small and undercutting on the rate and complaining they cant make money.

Superior L & L
02-05-2010, 04:18 PM
Interesting good points. One question that was not asked ! is your current machine paid for do you still owe on it. A old wheel loader pimped out would be cool as hell!

Skidsteerman
02-05-2010, 07:04 PM
I think we will start to see the surge in ctls drop off to almost nothing real fast as the first found starts to get older in age. These dealers all claim to me that they will go to 5,000 hours without a problem but then when I ask what their customers have for hours so far no one has over 2,000 yet. A lot of guys like bobcat ron use these machines but they don't use them for 8 hours a day every day working hard hard heard every day. Who wants a machine you have to pu ssy foot around with because your afraid to break it? I can tell you right now I could snap the welds on my deeres arms within five minutes by really working it. I know this so I have to be care full with what I do. Why make a machine that can lift so much if the rest of the machine around it can't support that kind of power? Just wait till other guys on this site start getting higher hours on there machines, its going to happen to EVERY ONE OF YOU. I guarantee it. Trade it in at 2,000 and take a beating or get ready to walk out of the dealer with a rubber hanging out your butt. These machines are not built right period. Why should a little piece of bailing twine cripple a 5,000 dollar final drive? Your telling me we can't come up with a way to guard that seal? We can't make that seal replaceable? Come on, its a joke. A set of tracks for 5,000 from the dealer but 2,000 from ebay? Huh? Come on. Go drive behind michigan cat and see a row of mtls having the undercarrige replaced. Is my thinking off on this? I just believe a 75,000 machine should have a use full life of more then 2,000 hours. I really do. 2,000 hours is a snack!! I could do that in two years easy!! If they can't make a machine that lasts then they shouldn't be selling them period.

The very last thing I'm looking into is renting or leasing a ctl. This would give me a brand new machine for 8 months of the year and then I give it back. This will avoid buying tracks, making repairs, the finance charges, all the uncertainty is avoided.
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Comment on a couple things in your quote.

I have customers who are close to and over 3,000 hours use, some pretty rough hours... out of all the CT332's I have out there I've never seen one come in with cracks or a broken boom. Seen one bent from a guy who had the boom at full height and shoved something two heavy for the machine into the bucket and whala, panic sets in and bent boom as a result.

My thoughts on your problem is this.

I've been noticing that large chassis CTL's do not hold a resale value. Showed a comparison to one of my customers for selling results between a list of 2001 JD 240 sslder's and a list of 2007-08 Bobcat T300 CTL's. Pretty shocking to see the sslder holding a MUCH stronger (not higher but in comparison of values) resale then a CTL considering the original purchase price of the two different units.

Why??? Well, mostly because no one really has a use for a high hour large chassis CTL or wants the expense of it's ownership. Almost 98% of the time people looking for a used machine are looking for a mid chassis sslder for their farm or property. NO ONE will purchase a 1,500 hour plus CTL for their business needs.

$20K discount for a 200~300 hour large Chassis CTL? Doubtful unless private owner has to take such a loss before the bank takes it.

Lease advantages.

*Check with your tax advisor first* With that said, in most cases you can tax 100% write off Vs. limited deprecation's. Lease's are designed for long term rental. In some states you will have to make a sales tax payment along with your lease payment.

What's so good about a lease? Keeping your equipment fresh every one, two or three years. Don't have to worry about crappy resale values. End of the lease, bring the machine back and walk into another unit or walk away. Take out an extended warranty on your leased machine for the duration you have it on lease. Maybe able (pending on your local brand dealerships capabilities) to set up a maintenance agreement for during the lease as well. Can get a lease set up with different yearly hours of use also. Try to determine how many hours a year you think you'll use your machine - say 600 a year, then get your lease set up for 800 hours a year usage. Go over that and you may be fined just like a car lease. Condition of the machine makes a difference also, bring it back trashed paint scratched off the sides of the boom and tracks completely destroyed, you might have to pay a fine.

Note, there are interest rates related to leasing and usually higher then financing option financing interest rates. This is to be expected as you want the leasing company to take the unit back after your done with it, they are not naive and have an educated guess for the machines resale value once they take it back... yes, they have to find a home for that machine too once it comes back to them at the end of the lease.

Also note, shorter the lease, the higher the monthly payment.

One of the sad things I've seen lately is guys taking these large chassis CTL's out on a five year note only to try and rotate their machines out in two to three years. Upside down.

P.Services
02-05-2010, 08:34 PM
Interesting good points. One question that was not asked ! is your current machine paid for do you still owe on it. A old wheel loader pimped out would be cool as hell!

Yeah my 332 is all paid for.

When I get home tonight we will talk about the best solution I think......renting.
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P.Services
02-05-2010, 08:38 PM
1,500 a month for 160 hours on the clock, no fines for worn tracks or scratched paint, no finance charges, no warranty payments, no oil changes. Just grease it and go!! How can you go wrong with that? I think anyone who runs these machines day in and day out should be renting, guys like ARP. I'm gonna have to chat with that guy.
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P.Services
02-05-2010, 08:40 PM
Oh yeah and if you don't have the work for it then guess what you do? You give it back!!! Get some big jobs?? Go get it again!! Let's see me do that with a new machine, you can give it back once and your credit score is gonna get bent over. They may even be able to do better then that price, I'm looking for 1250 tax included out the door!
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RentalGuy
02-05-2010, 09:48 PM
Oh yeah and if you don't have the work for it then guess what you do? You give it back!!! Get some big jobs?? Go get it again!! Let's see me do that with a new machine, you can give it back once and your credit score is gonna get bent over. They may even be able to do better then that price, I'm looking for 1250 tax included out the door!
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Wow! 1,500 a month for a ctl rental? Must be dealing with a desperate rental house or dealer. That is outrageous for a straight-up rental rate on a ctl.
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MOREDIRT
02-05-2010, 10:16 PM
1,500 a month for 160 hours on the clock, no fines for worn tracks or scratched paint, no finance charges, no warranty payments, no oil changes. Just grease it and go!! How can you go wrong with that? I think anyone who runs these machines day in and day out should be renting, guys like ARP. I'm gonna have to chat with that guy.
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What machine are you getting for that price?

P.Services
02-05-2010, 11:07 PM
A low hour 332 loaded out. That's a normal rate when u sign on for a month. A daily rate is 500.
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SellingIron
02-05-2010, 11:09 PM
We are seeing a S220 go for $800.00 a month....Checking into renting..Which was my last post on this issue...

ARP
02-06-2010, 12:36 AM
You guys have some great dealers to get those prices. There is no way I would get either of my machines fitted out for my work for that kind of money. A large frame track loader with forestry package (if you can get one), is easily $3000/month. I pay no where near that on monthly payments- trust me. For a dirt machine where you don't need guarding or anything special done to the machine then sure, renting may be a great option if you have a dealer or rental house that is willing to take a lot of risk and work out a low price like that. Specialized machines, I don't think so.

While it's good for you on the buying side, is the market really that bad out in your area, picasso, for the dealers and rental houses?

P.Services
02-06-2010, 12:49 AM
Horrible doesn't even begin to describe the market and industry as a whole. It would almost be worth you efforts to negotiate a deal from a dealer around me and haul the machine to your state. I will take it to the michigan ohio border for you, let's try to find you a lawnsite members to take it all the way to you.
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ARP
02-06-2010, 12:55 AM
Wow, that stinks. The dirt market around me is very tough as well, but it doesn't sound that tough. If I was ready to buy another machine, I would be curious to see how cheap one can go.

stuvecorp
02-06-2010, 01:31 AM
I guess I'm not completely following this, you are going to rent a CTL for 1250-1500 per month? How many months are you wanting to do this? That would be $18,000 a year for 1920 hours, using the 1500 per month?

P.Services
02-06-2010, 01:49 AM
If I did it would be for 8 months of the year.
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Mr. Rain
02-07-2010, 10:42 AM
If you can rent long term for that cheap, it's a no-brainer. You can't own one for $10/hr. Not sure how the rental yard thinks they can and still make a profit, but that's not really your problem. They may cash flow it, but their wear and depreciation will outpace their paydown and they'll be backwards on it at trade time, I'd think.

RentalGuy
02-07-2010, 12:35 PM
If you can rent long term for that cheap, it's a no-brainer. You can't own one for $10/hr. Not sure how the rental yard thinks they can and still make a profit, but that's not really your problem. They may cash flow it, but their wear and depreciation will outpace their paydown and they'll be backwards on it at trade time, I'd think.


I agree, for what Picasso is looking to do with the CTL, this is the way to go. As a rental store owner, I could never make the numbers work on a monthly rental at that price with full hourly allowance -- especially on a track loader. I understand that the dealer owned rental operations have an advantage over the little guy like myself but I am pretty shocked that they are going that low on monthlys and I am in Michigan as well. If this is what it has come to in my state, I am scared for everyone.

P.Services
02-07-2010, 02:41 PM
And I could even rent it out on the side for 250 a day!! Shoot I could make money on this deal! He's going to let me know monday if I can use it for forestry work also. Then I would buy my own head and go to town.
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ARP
02-07-2010, 02:45 PM
Picasso- if you can make this work, it's definitely a no-brainer. Just make sure you have a good contract, especially if you are investing in a mulcher, that keeps the machine available for you. I'd hate to see the guy get 2 months into the 8 month deal and pull the plug because he's not making money. That could leave you holding a very expensive mulcher that you would either need to sell or buy a machine for bringing you back to your current situation, only with more pressure on you to find a machine.

P.Services
02-07-2010, 02:47 PM
Yeah I agree. If I did rent it I would have a bullet proof contract so they can't take it back.
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P.Services
02-07-2010, 02:49 PM
I'm trying to get a 333D at that price but they don't really wana take the first one they get and throw it into the rental fleet I think.that's ok a 332 is plenty good but would be nice if it had e/h controls and 2spd.
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ARP
02-07-2010, 02:56 PM
I agree a 333D is nice :cool2: Might be looking at one later this year.

If it is the 332, make sure the mulcher has an hydraulic oil cooler as I've been told those machines are prone to cooling problems when running the high flow for the mulcher.

ShawnH
02-08-2010, 09:28 AM
I don't know about the 333 but I have a friend that has the 332 and its a great machine for the construction site and pushing dirt but I think putting it in a forestry application could but a disaster.

Skidsteerman
02-08-2010, 10:54 AM
I agree, for what Picasso is looking to do with the CTL, this is the way to go. As a rental store owner, I could never make the numbers work on a monthly rental at that price with full hourly allowance -- especially on a track loader. I understand that the dealer owned rental operations have an advantage over the little guy like myself but I am pretty shocked that they are going that low on monthlys and I am in Michigan as well. If this is what it has come to in my state, I am scared for everyone.

Not the case here either, That's a looser deal for that dealership on several levels. Besides monthly rental rates just being insanly too cheap to re-coupe depreciation value of the machine, not caring what condition or maintenance is done to the unit = fail at best.

Photo's are taken before any machines roll out of this yard to show the condition it is in before it goes out to rent and when it comes back in off of rent. This is to protect us and the renter. If the unit comes back with the sides of the boom scratched the heck from running through the woods rubbing against trees or if the tracks are sliced and cut up from running over trash or shot rock or creek gravel or just abuse, then there will be recourse. No different then renting a car, try bringing it back with damage to it and see how far that goes.

We have to do this because at some point that machine will be sold off and the future buyer will not be interested in a machine that is tore up and not well maintained. Would you be?

Maintenance is the renters responsibility for long term rents. We don't see this too much on the CWP product line because this equipment usually never gets rented for more then a month or so. Any longer then that they are usually looking for purchasing. Larger iron is a different story all together for rental needs.

Don't let that dealership see this thread, may change his mind:laugh:

P.Services
02-08-2010, 11:07 PM
maybe i will just rent this 50d for $4,300 a year and i will have the package deal

http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=7091537

Scag48
02-08-2010, 11:18 PM
That's $4,300 a month for rental. TERRIBLE rental rate on a 50, might I add.

P.Services
02-08-2010, 11:22 PM
i thought that first but then i thought about how terrible the rate was and figured it must be for the year.

Shadetree Ltd
02-09-2010, 02:35 AM
That is twelve payments to own the machine.