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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-04-2010, 01:59 AM
Ok guys I would like to know what miniature lamp style is most popular with you all.

I know you wont all take the time to answer the poll, but I hope you will take a moment to tell me what lamp/socket type you use most. If you are a manufacturer or distributor, please let me know which lamp/socket type you sell most of.

The primary choices that I see on the market are the Bi-Pin (be it G4 or G5.3), Single Contact Bayonet (SCB) and T5 Wedge. There are others of course, the DCB, T3 wedge, and that large wedge that Kichler uses (S8?)

Kind regards and much obliged.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-04-2010, 02:08 AM
I actually prefer the T5 Wedge for a number of reasons, most of them to do with socket quality, contact area, and harsh environments.

I do find more bi-pin sockets installed in fixtures than anything else, but the sockets themselves have proven to be really problematic over time. Small contact area between pin and paddles, poor construction, etc have played havoc with these for me. The best Bi-Pin Socket I have ever seen is the one that Hunza uses and it is my go-to socket when it comes time to replace everybody else's at failure time. (I would love to find the direct source of these someday!)

I find that the T5 Wedge allows for a much more secure fit between lamp and socket and offers much more contact area between the lamp leads and the socket. There are now more long life (xenon) T5 Wedge choices on the market than there are Bi-Pin lamps too, providing for more accurate control over light levels.

The SCB is not too bad, as long as you use a full SS socket. The cheapo sockets that many manufacturers have used over the years break down with heat and age and cause a royal PITA to change the lamp over time. Hadco seems to have the best SCB socket that I have come across.

Alan B
02-04-2010, 09:52 AM
James,

We sell mainly bi pins and I prefer them to wedges for a few reasons:
-the lamp quality seems to be better with bi pins (the glass surrounding the metal conductor pins on bi pins is thicker, better sealed, more durable). I never liked how wedges were made -- fold-able contact wires seem to encounter more problems from my experience--especially if you remove the wedge lamp--wire get bend and break.
-sockets. The bi pin sockets are made with ceramic high temp insulators and metal and are solid and compact. All the wedge sockets I have encountered have plastic bodies holding the contacts and are a little more bulky. Also I find it easier to set and insure a bi pin lamp into a socket compared to a wedge.

-I do agree with you about the increased contact area of a wedge socket, however the pins on the wedge lamp seem to be smaller, thinner, weaker, more fragile.
-lastly more universal. The same bi pin socket can often hold a great variety of lamp types and wattage's. A spring system bi pin socket can take a G4 20w, a G6 35w or even an MR16 lamp (if a good socket like Casts spring loaded contacts, do so without "stretching" the contacts and making them loose after a larger pin is used).
-down side of bi pin for LEDs is getting a 360 degree illumination. I would love to see an LED that works for a bi pin that has 360 illumination instead of the LED panel aimed in only 1 direction, also one that is properly heat sinked and has greater lumen outputs.

-Just my 2 cents. May be different than others.

Sincerely,

Alan

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-04-2010, 10:16 AM
Thanks for the input Alan. Its unfortunate that more manufacturers do not spend a few extra cents on a top quality bi-pin sockets. Most are those ubiquitous foil covered type where the springs "stretch" after a couple of lamp insertions.

BJB make a pretty decent Bi-Pin Socket (Auroralight uses these) and The Hunza Bi-Pin is the best I have ever used. (as previously noted).

No worries on the omni-directional bi-pin LED lamp... I am in development of one that will have about 150 Lumens output at 2800K with a CRI in the high 70's to low 80's. The issue with this format has been properly heat sinking such a high brightness, miniature lamp. We have come up with a VERY new and novel solution to this!

Alan B
02-04-2010, 10:27 AM
exc..wouls love to see it... it's really needed. Mr16's are used in lots of lighting application (indoors forexample) so innovation is happening with mr16's. However this application is being left behind because of its more niche use. It will be great if you or someone comes up with a solution so we can use them in path, area wallwashes etc.

Sincerely,

Alan

maxwilbryan
02-04-2010, 12:02 PM
http://www.ledlight.com/t5-74-automotive-led-lights.aspx
tanek posted pics on the AOLP thread (images1133-1140) or 360 led-wedge&bi-pin.
So just bi-pins here. Only use FX Luminaire as of now. Trying to learn more about the infinate fixtures, sockets, bulbs, wiring systems, dimmers, yada... So I pretty mich google every term I don't understand. That's where I go the above URL. It may not be what y'all are talkin about.
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-04-2010, 03:28 PM
http://www.ledlight.com/t5-74-automotive-led-lights.aspx
tanek posted pics on the AOLP thread (images1133-1140) or 360 led-wedge&bi-pin.
So just bi-pins here. Only use FX Luminaire as of now. Trying to learn more about the infinate fixtures, sockets, bulbs, wiring systems, dimmers, yada... So I pretty mich google every term I don't understand. That's where I go the above URL. It may not be what y'all are talkin about.
Posted via Mobile Device

The market is filled with these types of lamps and none of them are appropriate at all.

1- they are all 12VDC for the auto/marine/rv market. Not for use on AC systems.
2- they produce nowhere near enough light for general illumination applications. We need up and above 150 Lumens to be effective and that light must fall in a narrow CCT band of 2700K to 3000K to be acceptable. These lamps would be lucky to produce 1/3 of that light and have absolutely no control over CCT.
3- Even if you were to load up this type of lamp with smd led chips there is nowhere for the heat to go.

Trust me, we are working on this and I am quite certain will produce what the market is looking for. I am on my third rendition of heat sinks for this style of lamp now and we think we might have the situation under control.

Do not be swayed by false claims! The claims being made by LED lamp re-sellers are amazing and mystifying. Ask for full photometrics and spectroanalysis before you buy and see if that information is forthcoming. If not, dont believe the hype.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-04-2010, 03:29 PM
Wow guys, 79 Views and only two unique responses?! You can do better Im sure.

:)

maxwilbryan
02-04-2010, 04:06 PM
I'm watching cartoons on YouTube about basic electricity. Im a little scared to look at a spectroanalysis at this point. Sounds like it has fangs. I believe you of you say they ain't no count.
Posted via Mobile Device

S&MLL
02-04-2010, 04:31 PM
Wow guys, 79 Views and only two unique responses?! You can do better Im sure.

:)


I like the s8. Problem is Kichler is using there own leds. Doesnít do you much good. I think cast uses them in there paths.... could be wrong.

But if you were to make one I would buy them. Have a bunch of older Kichler paths I would like to retrofit.



You already have a bi pin out??? why a new one


I think your best bet is the t5. I run into so many of them at other guys jobs and hate them. I mean HATE them. Half are so gone and old that they break in your fingers. Always burn out to fast. And If you made one that can run from 9-13 volts it would be perfect for a quick fix on a crappy install.

Alot easier to put in a led then to rewire a system due to horrible install with drastic vd.

emby
02-05-2010, 12:28 AM
James,

I personally like the bi pin myself. The glass on the bulbs seem much stronger than that of a wedge.
My only issue with the mini bi pin path light bulb is this. On a MR16 bulb the pins are much larger (thicker in diameter)than a bi pin bulb. My bet is most companies buy the same socket for both bulbs and that is why I think some of the bi pin's fail prematurely. I have seen bi pins out there with larger pins comparable to that of an MR16. I do not fully understand why the bulb manufacturers just won't make them all a standard size.
Have you ever checked out Contrast's socket replacements? I have never had any issues with there sockets. Just a thought.

Ken

irrig8r
02-05-2010, 01:24 AM
Do you think this bi-pin, at 90 lumens, is the equivalent of a 10W halogen, or more?

http://www.ledlight.com/g4-ultra-bright-9-smt-led-light-12-volt-ac-dc.aspx

(90 lumen/ 12.57 = 7.15 CP)

They claim 25 W halogen equivalent. I don't think so. They also only claim a lamp life of 10,000 hrs....

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-05-2010, 08:03 AM
Do you think this bi-pin, at 90 lumens, is the equivalent of a 10W halogen, or more?

http://www.ledlight.com/g4-ultra-bright-9-smt-led-light-12-volt-ac-dc.aspx

(90 lumen/ 12.57 = 7.15 CP)

They claim 25 W halogen equivalent. I don't think so. They also only claim a lamp life of 10,000 hrs....

Just be reading the numbers posted there I can tell you that it is not anywhere near equivalent to a 25W (? who makes a 25w halogen bi-pin lamp?) Halogen. The you get to their "heat sink". It is entirely not up to the task of shedding the heat from those SMD chips. This is probably whey they have given it such a low hour rating. Why would you bother when you can easily find 10,000 xenon bi-pins for much less money.

I keep saying it, the true story of LED performanace is all in the numbers. You must get full and accurate performance data before you can make your decisions. Most LED lamp and fixture re-sellers do not offer full disclosure of ther performance data, photometrics and spectroanalysis. Why is this? What do they have to hide?

Lite4
02-05-2010, 08:26 AM
I prefer the bi-pin for the reasons Allen already stated. Much more versatile, MR11s and T3 bi pins will work in the same socket therefore doubling my lamping options.

Quick question on the LEDs, why not piggyback 2 of the bi-pin LEDs back to back and put them on 1 mounting plate with single bi-pin contacts. Most all path lights have plenty of internal room for this. Seems easier than trying to completely reinvent the lamp altogether if the 180 degree version is working fine. Just curious.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-05-2010, 11:37 AM
I prefer the bi-pin for the reasons Allen already stated. Much more versatile, MR11s and T3 bi pins will work in the same socket therefore doubling my lamping options.

Quick question on the LEDs, why not piggyback 2 of the bi-pin LEDs back to back and put them on 1 mounting plate with single bi-pin contacts. Most all path lights have plenty of internal room for this. Seems easier than trying to completely reinvent the lamp altogether if the 180 degree version is working fine. Just curious.

I know what you are saying Tim, and it sounds good, but in practice it just doesnt work out. You are in effect then doubling the heat signature of the lamp but reducing the performance of the heat sink by sandwitching it in between boards. We have tried similar and the junction temps were just too high. This is why we are 're-inventing' an omni directional version that meet the requirements of the chips and drivers.

Bottom line the current Bi-Pin is optimal for small floods, floods, and other niche style, semi-directional fixtures. We need the omni's for pathlights and the solution is forthcoming

IMPORTANT: when looking at all these lamp options be sure to inquire as to the ability of the lamp to operate in outdoor environments. Humidity and condesation will kill a lot of these drivers if they are not built for the task.

JoeyD
02-05-2010, 01:19 PM
Bi-Pins all the way......SCB is old school and invites failure and corrosion. WEedge base isnt bad but not as good as bi pins. We use the best sockets we can buy. Copper beryllium, spring loaded, and can accept all bi pin lamps we use in landscape lighting.

Lite4
02-05-2010, 03:55 PM
I know what you are saying Tim, and it sounds good, but in practice it just doesnt work out. You are in effect then doubling the heat signature of the lamp but reducing the performance of the heat sink by sandwitching it in between boards. We have tried similar and the junction temps were just too high. This is why we are 're-inventing' an omni directional version that meet the requirements of the chips and drivers.

Bottom line the current Bi-Pin is optimal for small floods, floods, and other niche style, semi-directional fixtures. We need the omni's for pathlights and the solution is forthcoming

IMPORTANT: when looking at all these lamp options be sure to inquire as to the ability of the lamp to operate in outdoor environments. Humidity and condesation will kill a lot of these drivers if they are not built for the task.

I wasn't actually thinking about the 2 lamps physically touching each other but rather faced back to back with about a 1/4" air gap between them with their bases mounted on an alluminum plate or porcelain chip with the 2 pins out the bottom.

The Lighting Geek
02-05-2010, 04:08 PM
I prefer bi pin for the same reasons stated. My options are greater and life span is generally greater. As with anything, if you don't use preventative methods (ie: greasing lamps/sockets) during installations, you will have some issues no matter what.

Let There Be Light
03-24-2010, 12:40 PM
I use the Brilliance Bullet OMNI directional BIPIN LED, Screw out diode for color changes, waterproof, 4 year warranty. www.brillianceled.com

I am affiliated.

irrig8r
03-24-2010, 05:48 PM
I use the Brilliance Bullet OMNI directional BIPIN LED, Screw out diode for color changes, waterproof, 4 year warranty. www.brillianceled.com

I am affiliated.

Affiliated? Steve, I thought you owned or ran both businesses...don't you?

Does your Dynasty bi-pin have the same output as the SCB model? I caluclated that to be about as bright as Nightscaping's LO89, in other words a bit less bright than the 12 W LO93.

Meanwhile, a newsletter I got this week from CLL ( www.callite.com ) has a bi-pin LED on their front page for "around $12"... 1.5 W, claims to be equivalent to a 10 W halogen and life of 40,000 hrs... haven't seen one in action. Oh and the pins are the larger size... G6.35 I think?

Basically, it seems to me that the obstacle you run into with any SCB or bi-pin LED retrofit is just not having enough physical space for a large enough driver to get the light output we're used to with halogen...

Let There Be Light
03-24-2010, 07:38 PM
Affiliated? Steve, I thought you owned or ran both businesses...don't you?

Does your Dynasty bi-pin have the same output as the SCB model? I caluclated that to be about as bright as Nightscaping's LO89, in other words a bit less bright than the 12 W LO93.

Meanwhile, a newsletter I got this week from CLL ( www.callite.com ) has a bi-pin LED on their front page for "around $12"... 1.5 W, claims to be equivalent to a 10 W halogen and life of 40,000 hrs... haven't seen one in action. Oh and the pins are the larger size... G6.35 I think?

Basically, it seems to me that the obstacle you run into with any SCB or bi-pin LED retrofit is just not having enough physical space for a large enough driver to get the light output we're used to with halogen...

That is correct Gregg. Run both companies. The SCB or BIPIN LED is a great replacement for a 10 watt halogen. It's actually perfect for the customer that wants a lower level of light-OR-for the customer that has an existing system where there is big voltage drops. The LED alleviates having to re-run new wiring. I believe the big difference between the callite product and mine is the water resistancy, the ability to change colors on the fly and the warranty. Distributor inquiries invited.

David Gretzmier
03-25-2010, 10:40 AM
On of the above mentioned sites, ledlight.com, also has a warm white SCB base under the automotive section that claims a 130 lumen output at 3000k. I thought about testing that on a couple of footliters at my home just to see how it worked.

irrig8r
03-25-2010, 10:53 AM
David,
I took a look and the only SCB or as they call it 1156 base lamps they seem to carry are for DC.

irrig8r
03-25-2010, 11:26 AM
BTW Steve, I have a couple of your SCBs and a couple of the MR-16s I got through Nightscaping.

The MR-16s are plenty bright, though I'd really like to see more detailed specs, like James offers for his.

The SCBs look good too, I just think that as a retrofit for fixtures already in the ground they need to be brighter... I couldn't use these to replace an 1141 or an 1156 for instance, and I have more of those on jobs, with fixture spacing to match, than I do the 93s.

So, are there brighter ones in the works?

Let There Be Light
03-25-2010, 11:57 AM
BTW Steve, I have a couple of your SCBs and a couple of the MR-16s I got through Nightscaping.

The MR-16s are plenty bright, though I'd really like to see more detailed specs, like James offers for his.

The SCBs look good too, I just think that as a retrofit for fixtures already in the ground they need to be brighter... I couldn't use these to replace an 1141 or an 1156 for instance, and I have more of those on jobs, with fixture spacing to match, than I do the 93s.

So, are there brighter ones in the works?

All specs on website and yes working on a 2-3 watt version along with wedge and PAR 36. THX