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View Full Version : Need suggestions on a special application


fshrdan
02-10-2010, 01:01 AM
Hey guys. I think this is my 1st time posting to this board. Seems to be alot of knowledge here, so maybe you can help me out.

I'm trying to light an outdoor masonry fireplace. About 2 feet above the top of the alcove is a solid stone mantle. I plan on lighting the portion above the mantle with 2 micro bullets on each corner pointing toward the chimney. But I'd like to mount a light below the mantle angled directly down to illuminate the rock work around the alcove and the hearth below. (Fires are rarely built in this). This fixture needs to be inconspicuous, but cannot be recessed for obvious reasons. From what I've seen, the Hadco LLL is the best fixture for the job, but I haven't found any similar fixtures. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for reading. I look forward to any advice.

Lite4
02-10-2010, 01:08 AM
Hey guys. I think this is my 1st time posting to this board. Seems to be alot of knowledge here, so maybe you can help me out.

I'm trying to light an outdoor masonry fireplace. About 2 feet above the top of the alcove is a solid stone mantle. I plan on lighting the portion above the mantle with 2 micro bullets on each corner pointing toward the chimney. But I'd like to mount a light below the mantle angled directly down to illuminate the rock work around the alcove and the hearth below. (Fires are rarely built in this). This fixture needs to be inconspicuous, but cannot be recessed for obvious reasons. From what I've seen, the Hadco LLL is the best fixture for the job, but I haven't found any similar fixtures. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for reading. I look forward to any advice.

I am having some trouble wrapping my head around what this thing looks like. Do you have any pics or drawings of it. What is surrounding it? pavers? concrete? There may be some other ways of lighting this thing you may not have thought of, but some pics of the fireplace and surrounding area would definitely help in the process.

JoeyD
02-10-2010, 11:10 AM
Our vanguard 5 and 8 under cap lights can have the plate removed and installed just like the LLL fixtures.


http://www.uniquelighting.com/product_pages/VANGUARD8.htm
http://www.uniquelighting.com/product_pages/VANGUARD5.htm

klkanders
02-10-2010, 11:25 AM
fshrdan,
Like Tim said pictures would be very helpful if possible. The Hadco fixture you mentioned is not the only one out there of that type. Unique (Vanguard), Vista (4260 Rail Light), Cast (Wall Light). They come in a variety of finishes and sizes. Take a look and see what might work best for you. Hope this helps!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-10-2010, 11:25 AM
If at all possible I encourage you to "See the effect, not the source".

Is the fireplace you are working on similar to the one in these photos?

klkanders
02-10-2010, 11:27 AM
Dang Joey you beat me to my plug for you! :)

klkanders
02-10-2010, 11:30 AM
Is this fireplace like the one in my photo?

Yes James that is your photo! :)

trailboss
02-10-2010, 09:26 PM
If at all possible I encourage you to "See the effect, not the source".

Is the fireplace you are working on similar to the one in these photos?

James, What fixture did you use here? How far are they from the hearth? Do they catch you in the face when you are standing in front of the fireplace?
We are finishing an outdoor kitchen right now that doesnt have a structure or pergola overhead. I wish that I would have installed some lights into the flagstone but I didnt. We installed the Vista 4263 copper step lights under the granite bar top - which will help - but I am still trying to get as much light onto the area as I can. Seems like people are doing more and more outdoor kitchens, fireplaces and pizza ovens out in the open like this.
Thanks for the info.

Steve

Pro-Scapes
02-10-2010, 11:45 PM
If at all possible I encourage you to "See the effect, not the source".

Is the fireplace you are working on similar to the one in these photos?

Personally i think that is way to bright and hot on that light colored stone. Maybe its the photo but thats way to white to compliment the fire. I am doing a fire place now and I am choosing to go with either an incandesant lamp or adding some lenses to warm the color up.

fshrdan
02-11-2010, 04:43 PM
Thanks for the responses. I'll check out those other lights. I've never used Unique, so I'll have to find a supplier around here for prices.

I don't have a pic of the fireplace I'm working with, but the fireplace is similar in layout to the one in the photo minus the cordwood bins. Also, it's a stacked natural stone instead of a concrete product.

My main challenge is lighting this thing without any glare. I don't want anyone to get blinded while they're trying to warm their butt, so spotting from the front or front/sides is out. I want subtle, since this is not the focal point at night. The sides of the hearth are slightly illuminated with pathlights adjacent to the patio, so I'm looking to light the chimney above the mantle to show it's height, and a small light under the mantle to show off the top of the hearth and a portion of the alcove.

You guys have been very helpful. Thanks for the input thus far. Also, I'd be interested in your opinions concerning micro spots. I use alot of FX, so my first choice is the FX MP, but unfortunately these arent available in a raw copper finish, so I'm open to other fixtures. I do want a copper finish, and an MR-11 is fine, MR 16 is good too if the fixture is small enough.

klkanders
02-11-2010, 05:39 PM
Fshrdan,
Keep in mind what the reveal measurement is under the mantel. Some fixtures like Integral and Vista are 1" height by 1" depth. The Unique Vanguard is closer to 1.5"x1.5".
I have a few pictures on my website of a stone fireplace but I was fortunate to be able to down light from over head. Your situation presents more of a challenge.
If you can't locate a Unique dealer close check out Terradek. Good Luck!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-12-2010, 09:27 AM
Personally i think that is way to bright and hot on that light colored stone. Maybe its the photo but thats way to white to compliment the fire. I am doing a fire place now and I am choosing to go with either an incandesant lamp or adding some lenses to warm the color up. It is not all that bright at all and the reflected light from the stone is used to provide ambient light to the patio area in front. The clients are thrilled, everyone loves it, and the system has received kudos and a significant award for excellence in design and installation.



I don't have a pic of the fireplace I'm working with, but the fireplace is similar in layout to the one in the photo minus the cordwood bins. Also, it's a stacked natural stone instead of a concrete product. This particular project is not concrete. It is an old style of masonry construction used throughout the area in the 1700-1800's called rubble masonry. Lighting the drystack stone in this manner will add shadow and depth which will look very dramatic and interesting.

My main challenge is lighting this thing without any glare. I don't want anyone to get blinded while they're trying to warm their butt, so spotting from the front or front/sides is out. Well actually, it can be done with no glare. The only glare that anyone would see in my application would be if they are standing between the fire and the fixtures. Not very likey as the fixtures were mounted 12 inches away from the hearth. I used Vermeer well lights here which deeply recess the lamp. I then clipped glare louvers to the lamps to eliminate side glare, and I used a grated top to again eliminate side glare. The clients sit out in that location frequently with the fire on and have never reported any issues. It can be done if you take the time to measure, study your lamp photometrics and control your glare.

I want subtle, since this is not the focal point at night. Subtle is created with the use of appropriate lamps. Subtle is enhanced when you do not see any fixtures. The sides of the hearth are slightly illuminated with pathlights adjacent to the patio, so I'm looking to light the chimney above the mantle to show it's height, and a small light under the mantle to show off the top of the hearth and a portion of the alcove.

You guys have been very helpful. Thanks for the input thus far. Also, I'd be interested in your opinions concerning micro spots. I use alot of FX, so my first choice is the FX MP, but unfortunately these arent available in a raw copper finish, so I'm open to other fixtures. I do want a copper finish, and an MR-11 is fine, MR 16 is good too if the fixture is small enough.

Best of luck, let us all know how it comes out.

RLDesign
02-12-2010, 10:08 AM
Hello James,

I found the lighting complimentary to the fire, but I also have made a decision to not judge someones work based upon a photo. Although photos are nice when shot well, night photography is a difficult art. Even though I have hundreds of photos, not many of them are good representations of the subtle effect of my lighting. Naomi Miller's detailed presentation of how the eye sees light/dark addressed some of this at conference, as well as the way we interpret the extension of daytime transformed with our landscape lighting. I have used her info and talk in 2 sales pitches explaining the appeal of outdoor lighting to the masses. The way our body reacts to the change in light. Her time at AOLP COLD year 1 was very influential and affected my understanding of the physical pieces of lighting/eyesight/emotion.

I try not to judge someone's work based upon a photo. I tell my clients that a photo is just a small piece of the puzzle to get you to commit to my lighting design. I often tell clients to drive by a few addresses after the sun has set or as the sun is setting, preferably after dinner and some wine to enjoy my creations. George Gruels renderings are something of a different engine, because he can create the desired effect before completion. If you haven't seen his work, please go to his website.

Talk soon.

Tanek

Alan B
02-12-2010, 11:18 AM
James the fireplace looks great. What Billy (I believe) is referring to is the white color temp of the LED lamps. It has nothing to do with the design or install, but the whiter color temp of LEDs vs halogen. Even "warm LEDs" are usually whiter than a halogen. I found this when I compared James (and all warm LED's) side by side to a halogen.

James application looks great, but this is a case where the warmth of the yellow halogen would add to the cozy feeling, ambiance of the fire and be a slightly more complimentary color than LED. If you didn't have a real astute eye or see a side by side of warm LED vs halogen, most would not even realize the color diff. Then again if the customer wants LED, there's not much you can do about it.

Part is also personal preference. I happen to like the warmer feeling of halogens, but maybe as I get used to it I will start appreciating the truer white of LED.

Respectfully,

Alan

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-12-2010, 02:02 PM
Hi Alan. Colour temperature preferences are now easily solved with the availability of the LED lamps in 2700K.

We here in N. America have certainly been conditioned to warmer white than the rest of the world. Edison's invention has been like visual crack here, esp. in residential applications. Throughout europe and asia the preference is for 4000K CCT. Slowly I am starting to see this CCT accepted more and more, especially in contemporary cutting edge custom homes.

As for LED lamps... those of us who are used to using GE lamps are happy with the 3000K units. Those who have been using Ushio and others seem to prefer the 2700K, that is why there are now more sku's available.

Regards

RLDesign
02-12-2010, 04:47 PM
Well, I guess I don't read slowly enough because I thought these were halogen and didn't get the LED reference. I cannot tell the difference on this chimney project of LED vs. Halogen. The right light is definitely subjective.

Best,

Tanek

Pro-Scapes
02-12-2010, 09:05 PM
What i was reffering to was the use of ingrades in front of the fireplace. Anyone who walks near them will be blasted with light. The picture may very well be off but it still looks kind of spooky to me.

Just my opinion.... 10 designers will all give you 10 different designs. If your clients are happy then great. I just personally wouldnt have done it like this.

What significant award did you win for this particular installation ? I have seen alot of your pictures and this one just caught me as off par for you James thats all. I generally think your work looks very subtle but probably very complimentry to your surroundings.

David Gretzmier
02-12-2010, 10:25 PM
I guess my main objective to lighting this fireplace would be asking the homeowner how they planned on using this fireplace. many of these outdoor units are looked at and never burned in. therefore, I think james app is spot on, as it makes the fireplace look great. many folks may only burn it for company/parties/guests or special occaisions. in that case, I imagine folks walking around at events, and louvers or hex lenses have got to be used to cut the glare, and maybe even switched off if it is an issue. many folks may have a gas unit or a gas starter out door fireplace, and may use it more often for relaxing, etc. I would ask if they will read the newspaper or books, to provide for lighting from above and behind, again, switchable, or are just enjoying the flicker of light and the ambiance, perhaps with a loved one. many folks love the dancing/flicker light that comes from a living flame, and washing it with light kills that effect.

how people answer questions to how they live is more important to lighting the fireplace properly for the owners.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-13-2010, 02:08 AM
What i was reffering to was the use of ingrades in front of the fireplace. Anyone who walks near them will be blasted with light. The picture may very well be off but it still looks kind of spooky to me.

Just my opinion.... 10 designers will all give you 10 different designs. If your clients are happy then great. I just personally wouldnt have done it like this.

What significant award did you win for this particular installation ? I have seen alot of your pictures and this one just caught me as off par for you James thats all. I generally think your work looks very subtle but probably very complimentry to your surroundings.

Billy, I won the Landscape Ontario Award of Excellence for Lighting Design and Installation for this particular project.

I assure you that there is no glare coming off those fixtures, unless you position your head somewhere closer than 12 inches to the face of the fireplace. I am completely anti-glare and took the necessary measures to eliminate it from view.

The entire project was a departure from my norm as I worked very hard to provide the client with what they were looking for. It was a massive job, and a challenging one. Extensive wall washing, up lighting of the stone house, and underlighting all of the surrounding forest. The overall effect is really quite magical. The clients are thrilled.

Pro-Scapes
02-13-2010, 09:44 AM
There are several nice copper spotlights on the market. Coppermoon now has one called the cm115. Its a brass knuckle and base with a copper shroud.

Vista also has one but it might be a bit big for your application ? Not sure if they offer it off the shelf in an MR11 configuration. There is another one I used years ago. I think it was from SPJ

James I am happy for you and your award. I can agree to disagree with you here. I think you were capable of something a bit more inviting. I can imagine on colder nights someone may wish to warm thier buns by the fire. I can only imagine what this might look like in a scenario like that. I know your clients may not use the area like that but perhaps a guest might. Stay tuned for shots of the one I am building this week