The real fight

[JDUtah]

Well if you have spent more than two minutes reading in this forum you have realized that there is a constant fight going one. Although attacks are made on a personal level I hope we are all mature enough to understand that the fight is not based on inter-personal conflicts, but rather it is an extension of a debate that is still trying to find an end. And probably never will.

The personal attacks stem from non-personal beliefs. Those beliefs may be categorized into three groups. Synthetic only, Organic only, and Bridge. I will share my opinion of each of these groups. I will be as unbiased as I can.

Synthetic Only
These fellows like the way that synthetics perform. They do not care for any organic approach. While the motives for such a position may vary, it is my experience that most of them have chosen such an extreme position because they have been attacked for not wanting to omit their synthetic tools. These people usually attack organic only users. It has been my experience that this is mainly done as a defensive mechanism triggered by some attack against them in the past.

Organic Only
These folks have decided to do away with synthetics completely. They usually claim that the main reason they have chosen so is they believe that synthetic materials kill the earth. This belief causes them to often attack people who want to use synthetics. It is also evident that they are driven by a fascination of the soil microbial world. In my observation, the mainstream organic only crowd are attracted to it because the fascination of soil microbes, not because of a true belief that synthetics kill the planet. Evidence coming later.

Bridge
Bridge users have done away with the 'this or that' option and have embraced the third option... this and that. These are people who have decided to combine the best uses of both synthetics and organics. If these people decide to enter the debate between organic and synthetic they are often attacked from both sides. Synthetic only folk roll their eyes at them because they use organics. Organic only folks attack them because they use synthetics. These people are often categorized as 'nutjobs' by the synthetic crowd and 'lazy' by the organic crowd.

Conclusion
Which one are you? I know which one you truly aren't. You aren't an organic only person. Some of you may claim so, but evidence proves otherwise. There is no such thing as organic computers. Organic electricity. Organic vehicles. Organic money. Etc. and the bottom line is.. if you are reading or posting on this forum you truly believe in both organic and synthetic materials. You truly are a bridge or synthetic only user.

I am an open bridge guy. I have had various people attack me personally because of it. Do I appreciate it? Of course not. Do I deserve it? I don't believe so. Will those people who decide to post personal things against me please stop.

I am hard against beliefs, but I rarely attack people personally... usually if I have attacked someone personally it is because they have attacked me personally. The personal attacks are what reduce the quality of the threads in this forum. Let us please refrain from personal attacks and leave the debate to principles only please.

Thank you.

[ecoguy]

Well said JD. For the record, I am an organic only guy with turf and trying to be more so in other areas of my life. The success of my organic only biz will hopefully allow me to do that to a greater degree by affording me the $ living organically often takes.

[Kiril]

but I rarely attack people personally

ROFL If you say so :rolleyes:

[JDUtah]

ROFL If you say so :rolleyes:

You missed the point of the post...

[JDUtah]

Well said JD. For the record, I am an organic only guy with turf and trying to be more so in other areas of my life. The success of my organic only biz will hopefully allow me to do that to a greater degree by affording me the $ living organically often takes.

I can appreciate that, albeit IMO the more money you have the less organic you will live. Complete organic can be lived without any money. In fact it must be so. Money is a synthetic item (cash and digital).

But anyways, like I said. I appreciate your position. I would say it is mine too. Organic as much as I can.

[ICT Bill]

AND.............. after being in the business for some time and going htrough the difficult job of figuring out what works for you and is profitable, it is very difficult to change

There are a couple of things you left out on "why?"

Many of the herbicides used today are endocrine disrupters, they basically short circuit one part of the hormanal system in plants. The chemical companies believe they safe, the EPA is taking a scond look after finding six legged frogs and unisex fish in streams and ponds with detectable levels of herbicides

Nutrient pollution is causing dead zones in bays, lakes and even the huge gulf of mexico. marine life is being wiped out and huge areas can no longer be used to lay eggs and make more

In many areas these tipping points have already tipped over

many areas in the chesapeake bay and many others around the world can no longer support the harvesting of the resource in those bays, what is left is being fished closed to extinction

By taking a "feed the plant" mentality you are contributing to the demise, some have decided to stop and find another way to do it

according to a roedale paper 60% of the nitrogen you apply from chemicals never reaches the plant, you should ask for a refund
It either volitizes into the air to mix with ozone and make nitrous oxide close to 300 time as pwerful as CO2 as a greenhouse gas, it washes off into the gutter contributing to nutrient pollution or leeches into the ground destroying aqufers and wells

Hell they are even finding round up in wells now and plant are becoming round tolerant, so we use something else that is more toxic

Many have had enough and do not want to continue paying the big corporate machine for a bag of fertilizer or toxic pesticides
Many of the customers are demanding that we be better stewards and are asking for less toxic cocktails on their yards
Of 30 commonly used lawn pesticides 16 are toxic to birds, 24 are toxic to fish and 11 are deadly to bees

I am in the camp that says "ENOUGH"!
You didn't have that one on your list, I just thought I would point it out

[Tim Wilson]

"There is no such thing as organic computers. Organic electricity. Organic vehicles. Organic money. Etc. and the bottom line is.. "

This is complete utter misinterpretation and childish to the uppermost. There may be a few people who believe and live so but as I said previously the modern research and advances in the understanding of microbial nutrient cycling are cutting edge science and technology, not the opposite as you seem to wish to believe. You have a fundamental mental block here

[Landscape Poet]

"There is no such thing as organic computers. Organic electricity. Organic vehicles. Organic money. Etc. and the bottom line is.. "

This is complete utter misinterpretation and childish to the uppermost. There may be a few people who believe and live so but as I said previously the modern research and advances in the understanding of microbial nutrient cycling are cutting edge science and technology, not the opposite as you seem to wish to believe. You have a fundamental mental block here

I have to agree with Tim here, I do not see Organic as going back to a time before the invention, rather I see Organic as a approach.
In regards to this site, I see organic's as a approach to limiting or doing without the use of synthetic fertilizers or chemical pesticides. I never thought of people that say they provide Organic lawn care as people that show up with a heard of goats to cut the grass! Same way I do not think of Synthetic guys showing up with a chemical lab on the back of the truck. It is a approach to solving a problem.
Interesting concept though - wonder how people would react if I showed up with some goats and cows to mow for their lawns.:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

[starry night]

Conclusion[/B]
Which one are you? I know which one you truly aren't. You aren't an organic only person. .

No, I'm not an organics only person. I'm trying to be an organics only lawn person. That's the best I can do -- my little part. Maybe others will go along and do their little part. In the meantime, I am also a businessman and plan to be in the vanguard of organic lawn care----the better way to grow turf.

[Landscape Poet]

Just bought 5 goats off ebay - going to charge for a mow and fertilization for each visit now! LOL

[Central Island Lawn]

I'll put my two cents in here. As someone who is trying to go green I'll share some thoughts on this. I think the problem with going completely organic is it's economic viability. I can see organic being successful for the guy who services residential clients. But the commercial clientel want something a little more cost effective. For instance, I have a strata that wanted bugs removed from a tree. He didn't give a ****, just get them out of here. I had suggested a biological or otherwise organic remedy but he wanted them gone now. Do I risk pissing him off and lose the contract or just spray it? On the flip side, another one of my stratas had an eco-friendly president who loved to talk gardening. She wanted an on site compost for green waste I would have instead removed, organic fertilizers, no pesticides, herbicides, or chemicals. I even started mowing small strips of lawn with a push reel, she thought it was great. As service providers, we sometimes have to bend to the will of our clients. I classify as a lazy nutjob. I do like to use organics and eco-friendly options, but sometimes it just makes the people who pay me happier to go with chemicals, even if only once in a while.

Yes, I use a push reel mower from time to time, it sits next to my 4 stroke toro.

[pt03]

I missed this thread somehow, maybe I was :sleeping:.

I fell onto this site a while ago when a backtrack computer thingy led to it when someone was looking at a trommel compost screener we had built.

I am not a lawn care company, I do not do lawn care stuff. I have a full time job, I part time farm (grain and fruit) and I've worked on larger farms. I've dabbled in composting and building "stuff" for composting over the years. An opportunity came up where I could get all the yard trimmings from a nearby town delivered to the farm and they were willing to pay me the funds that they would have paid the landfill.

This was done on a trial basis for one year and it worked incredibly well and it is now a large part of the farm. These trimmings have replaced all the synthetic fertilizer I used to use. I do this not because I'm a huge organic proponent (although I truly believe organic is better) but because opportunity and economics had a mid-air collision. I use herbicides to control weeds to reduce dockage on the wheat and to control weeds in the fruit orchard.

One year we had to stockpile a bunch of yard trimmings due to wet conditions and that led to larger windrow composting. Word got around, people started showing up for compost for gardens and one guy asked for some for his lawn but he bitched about the pain of spreading it. Further searching on the web came up with the rolling topdressers so we built some. Learning about how compost helps the lawns and how to do it is ongoing hence the sporadic visits to this site.

I acknowledge that most of the guys here are doing lawncare or related stuff for a living so they may have different priorities than I do. It doesn't matter to me if what I do ultimately makes any kind of money, I do a lot of it for fun. I ain't trying to sell anything to anyone here.

That's my background, I don't think I fit into any of JD's categories.

Here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/laj2006/) is a photo spread of some of our projects and activities. Some of them are older and we have already evolved or modified some of them as time went on.

Lloyd:drinkup:

[heritage]

JD,

It's special interests and lobbyists setting the tone here.

People will react and believe most anything sometimes.

Very Subjective and ALL 3 systems will do a GREAT Job in the hands of someone who is good with their method of choice.


Pete